12 ms·

We may get fired and I don't know what to do

81 points by firefoxd 13y ago

eksith 13y ago
Resign, if you can. This seems to me an organization with a toxic ecosystem that's neither healthy for you or your co-workers. It's ridiculous that the strategy team isn't aware of these shenanigans and that tells me, the structure of the organization is hopelessly broken (besides the manager they don't want to get rid of). In my experience, management isn't the sort of thing that's easy to fix or, IMO, worth fixing in the longer run. If you're not a founder/investor or in other way have a horse in this race, you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) to waste precious time off your life in a hierarchy that isn't going anywhere and is utterly clueless. Resigning may give you better options later on than getting fired. It's going to be tough depending on how well you can function on reserves, but if I were you, I would be tiding up my resume immediately and sending out feelers elsewhere. It's a big ocean out there.
- lucaspiller 13y ago
  > you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) to waste precious time off your life in a hierarchy that isn't going anywhere and is utterly clueless. I beg to differ. It sounds like the whole department is at risk. If I was in the position I wouldn't want to just quit and leave everyone else - who I work with on a daily basis - to face the consequences. I would try speaking to upper management and seeing how that goes. At the very least let them know about the PMs regime to rewrite everything - "What, you didn't know this was happening?". I would actually speak to them rather than just emails. If they don't seem bothered, and nothing happens, then get out. But at least you know that you tried, and don't have to feel guilty about leaving.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    I agree with this because it seems to be essentially one bad apple that is screwing everything up. If the team was working okay before under the previous PM and lead developer then there's no reason to think all hope is lost. At least not yet.
    - troels 13y ago
      Yet this bad apple sunk one department and then got transferred to a highly profitable one. It sounds to me that he is very well connected or otherwise good at office politics. Taking him on would likely end in defeat. I would suggest to get out of there.
      - dasil003 13y ago
        He doesn't need to "take him on". He needs to gather information to decide whether or not he needs to leave. If one jumps to conclusions and passive aggressively resigns every time one encounters dysfunction in an organization then one will never be able to work on a team larger than 3 or 4 people.
  - mosselman 13y ago
    It sounds noble, but lets face it, he is not on a battlefield with dying comrades or something. Colleagues are not your family, they are in charge of their own lives and they can leave too if they want to. Would you want someone to come work a job he now hates just so that you wouldn't feel bad about him leaving? Grow up. Just start looking for a new job and leave as soon as you can. A company that makes these kinds of choices in terms of job filling cannot be worth your time.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    Depending on how dysfunctional things are, doing what you propose could blow-up in the guy's face. I think it is a fine thing to do, but make sure you've got job offers in hand before you do it.
- amirmc 13y ago
  > "... you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) ... Resigning may give you better options later on than getting fired. It's going to be tough depending on how well you can function on reserves ..." The OP mentioned London and the timescales indicate he's been in the company a while. Therefore, I'd encourage him to check his contract and employment law as 'being fired' isn't a trivial undertaking for the employer (there can be negotiation and comp agreements). I definitely agree with the sentiment to refresh his CV and be prepared to leave but not if it's going to cause financial hardship. Once he understands his position, I'd try bypassing the manager and feeling out the higher ups about what they do and do not know about this 'secret' project. If it turns out that there's tacit support from above I'd consider that a big warning sign.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    In UK law being fired for you bosses misdemeanors is a non starter the op is not liable. If the company looks like its going to make people redundant as a result of this project going bad don't resign as you will miss out on any possible redundancy.
gfosco 13y ago
I would likely have gone over his head to higher management some time ago. The only reason not to is job security, but I swear to you it's better to go out having done the right thing.
- AndrewDucker 13y ago
  I agree. Go see senior management, and tell them what kind of unholy clusterfuck is occurring inside their top area.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    Be very careful with this approach. You've no idea what those above know or do not know and if handled badly, it could blow up in your face.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    I would do that only if/when you've resigned to leaving or being let go. I've seen it turn out both ways - things get cleaned up, and the whistleblower is effectively pushed out. If you end up staying and treated well for raising the alarm, great. If not, you may be let go within days or sounding the alarm - be prepared.
pan69 13y ago
A day job isn't supposed to be this political and stressful. Get the hell out of there.
devsatish 13y ago
Now that things are so bad, the best thing to do is to keep higher ups and other peers(yours and your managers's) in the organization, a quick update on what's going on in your group. Make sure to have some good metrics/data collected to have the case strong. Remember: When concerned about loyalty, Your loyalty is not just to the manager, but to the organization.
aplummer 13y ago
If it is as bad as you say, send an earnest letter to whoever owns the company. If that's the founder, shareholders, whoever has the owners equity in the company. Better yet, if possible, find them in person and address them that way if you have the confidence/acumen. Get your resume sorted but don't touch the linkedin as it will show you might be thinking of jumping ship. It sounds like you enjoy the project and would rather solve the issue than leave. A project being developed in secret is completely f'ed (and could be illegal depending on your company structure) and they would have to be mental for reprimanding you for bringing transparency to it.
- dasil003 13y ago
  I think he should go to the PM's boss and to request an in-person meeting to raise the issue. Depending on how big the company is, the CEO may be way too high up to have any clue about the people he's talking about; he needs to get a read on the situation based on the PM's boss' reaction to figure out his next move.
- jpatokal 13y ago
  Psst: you can easily disable LinkedIn's profile update notifications. http://jobsearch.about.com/od/linkedin/ss/linkedin-profile-tips_7.htm http://jobsearch.about.com/od/linkedin/ss/linkedin-profile-t...
HarrietJones 13y ago
Go over your managers head. Go to the person who is in charge of your manager, and tell them what's going on. Inform them that your manager's messing this up with a secret side project. I'd also be tempted to go back to your original project. If your new manager's taught you anything, it's that it is OK to work secretly on stuff without reporting to management. See if you can get the whole team to revolt.
throwhawaii 13y ago
Story of my life! Except the system was our bread winner and the redesign was no secrecy. We knew something was wrong but we all wanted to see the company succeed so we kept going way after the project was late and over budget. In the end we failed and everyone competent left. My advice will be that you leave if you can. If that is not an option then work up the courage to tell some higher ups what's going on. You will burn bridges with the manager but you will save yourself and the rest of your team from the pain of coming to work every morning knowing they are partly responsible for something bad that is about to happen.
rmc 13y ago
Fuck 'em. Get a new job. Capitalism at work baby. Hire a crappy manager, capitalism means the company will lose skilled employees and go under.
- blindhippo 13y ago
  You keep using this word: 'capitalism'. I don't think you know what it means.
thu 13y ago
It seems a lot of people think you can sort things out by speaking with higher managment but it looks like the organization is broken, not just the new manager otherwise he wouldn't be in a position to brake a second department. There is a communication problem too. Why isn't anybody talking about thoses site going down ? Why is it so formal/difficult to talk about problems with other managers and other departments ? It's unfortunate, but a few (even just one or two) guys can brake an organization when they are at the top.
- kelvinn 13y ago
  Agreed. The natural first response is to play politics (not always bad) and escalate via some other back channel, but often times direct confrontation in the right setting is more effective.
babarock 13y ago
You can either resign silently, or step up and go talk honestly with higher management with the risk of getting fired. In any case, you shouldn't continue working like that. Finding a new job is easier than you think it'll be. Living in such a stressful environment is not worth it. The only thin you'll regret is not doing something about it.
- stesch 13y ago
  Finding a new job is easier than you think it'll be. Maybe he is older than 35?
  - sspiff 13y ago
    Is it that much harder to find a job when you turn 35? I mean, a lot of my older colleagues have had a hard time finding jobs, but most of them are not very passionate about what they do. They want to work right next to their own front door, they don't want to sacrifice any pay or holiday credit, and they prefer not to learn new things and stick to the familiar. (I know of a few exceptions, and I'm not claiming this is true for all >35yo employees) I wonder: if you keep learning new things, continue to be passionate about your field etc, is it that much harder to find a new job just because you're older?
    - artificialidiot 13y ago
      You can't convince an adult to work himself to death to enrich someone else. At least, not that easily. The problem can also be understood as a lack of demand for experience. Noone realistically needs any experience beyond a few side projects to get started. With abundant open source software, many people's roles are reduced to an assembly line worker who knows how to operte the tool in hand.
      - GoodIntentions 13y ago
        >>an assembly line worker who knows how to operte the tool in hand. This is one problem imho, that stands in the way of more mature developers landing jobs and of juniors advancing. There is a trend to use 3rd party libraries as rad tools even when they don't fully fill the needs, and a tendency to use 3rd party tools to prevent your coders from really needing to code. Architects know they're going to hand off to code monkeys, so they force designs to fit existing 3rd party libraries and any complexity gets pushed to the design side, not the implementation side. Why hire and pay extra for experience when a grad can do it?
chris_wot 13y ago
An incompetent manager is moved to the most profitable division? This indicates that the individual is highly connected in the company. Brush up your CV, get the heck out or request a division transfer.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Sad truth. :(
suhailpatel 13y ago
I'd have to agree with most of the comments on here from what you describe. Considering your last sentence, you are in London where there are no shortage of tech jobs. Brush up your resume and send it out. Good luck!
barrkel 13y ago
The weather in London is not ugly right now. Just for the record.
UK-AL 13y ago
I really would not talk to upper management. If the guy got moved to a profitable department, it means he has friends there. You're gonna lose, and risk a bad reference which would make it difficult to get a new job. Remember who put him there, if it was bad choice, it means upper management made a bad decision. In my experience upper management will do anything but admit to a bad decision. Just silently leave for another job, try to make sure you will get a good/neutral reference. Remember future employers will just think your bad/unskilled if you get a bad reference rather than the fact you got into politics. Larger companies have an automatic no, to bad references and won't accept excuses. Since they assume your a bad person/almost criminal (the only point large corporates will give a bad reference normally) and probably lying. Limiting you to small companies for your next job. Its nice to think you can be a hero and fix this, but you can only do that if your someone with significant power in the company like a founder, or an early employee who is best buds with senior management. Since HN is full of these types, they can be idealistic. I've been through situations like this, and this is what I would do now rather then potentially making your life hell. Situations like this is a massive problem with modern company structure.
- hugofirth 13y ago
  As a side point - am I incorrect in believing that it is, in fact, Illegal to give a bad reference? I was under the impression that your only recourse was, instead, to decline to provide a reference at all.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    There's damming with faint praise, or the non-commital 'yeah, he worked here between these dates'. Neither one of those says anything bad per se, but they can signal the unwillingness to provide a good reference.
  - noir_lord 13y ago
    This is true in practice if not in law. Many large companies will not give a reference at all merely confirming dates worked from and too. I think it was because someone once sued (successfully) over a bad reference.
kelvinn 13y ago
To get into the mindset of the managers, consider skimming James Collins' book "Good to Great". One point to take away is that any leaders in your organisation will appreciate the brutal facts. Make sure you have documented what issues and risks you have expressed to the PM and Lead Developer - maybe actually in whatever tool you are using, or at least in email. Make a record that team's morale is decreasing. You and each of your team members should directly be telling the PM and Lead Developer that you are worried with specific risks or issues. Take the registers to somebody with more authority in your organisation. Come in with a few recommendations. Present the facts and tell them you think there's a problem, and ask if they agree or not. If they do agree, make sure to get what the next action will be. Just my immediate thoughts. Good luck.
- UK-AL 13y ago
  This is super idealistic. In reality in small/medium companies people are connected and group together, and protect their friends. Most likely the pm is friends with the senior manager.
  - lazyjones 13y ago
    Also, in reality many employees do not have the insight or ability to identify critical issues they think they have.
bernatfp 13y ago
Just name the damn company and sooner or later the upper bosses will find out.
ExpiredLink 13y ago
>> Since the beginning of the year 2013 my department have lost more than 50% of its earnings and keeps losing at an alarming rate. Discussing with my team mates it is obvious what is going wrong: We have an incompetent project manager and lead developer and they are the only ones who seem to not notice that there is even a problem. The PM and the lead haven't noticed but certainly their boss. Wait and see. I don't think it's you who will be fired.
rdl 13y ago
Find a new job, now. You can probably get a raise. Finding a job while you already have one is easier than when unemployed. Posts like the "HN Who is Hiring" can help, although more US-focused. Decide if you should tell management about these issues (politely) on your way out. I'd be inclined to just leave quietly, though.
hannibal5 13y ago
If all of you agree, you can write a letter together that points out the problems and toxicity of the situation. Then you all sign the letter in alphabetical order and send it to the CEO of the company. If that fails, you can resign.
- walshemj 13y ago
  send it anonymously
mac01021 13y ago
Have any of you discussed this with the new incompetent PM? That seems like a natural first thing to do, before going over his head.
dutchbrit 13y ago
Don't resign just yet, find a new job first ;). Shouldn't be too hard!
brador 13y ago
Your job is not to make the company more profitable. It is to make money for yourself. You're a technician. Do the work, tick the boxes, while finding better employment and building your skillset. I wouldn't rock the boat under the reasoning that you gain nothing by doing such, except, maybe, a tiny chance at promotion. Moving jobs will likely net you a higher paycheck.
Tloewald 13y ago
It sounds like you're invested in the company/team and/or the project or this would be a no-brainer (leave). You could try confronting the lousy manager as a group (if you really do all agree), and if that fails go over his/her head. Then you've done the right thing by everyone. Maybe there are even some good ideas in the new design that could be moved to the existing design to help the idiot save face (at least offer a lifeline). Confronting the manager first means he/she can't claim he/she was ambushed, no-one ever said anything, and so forth.
ChristianMarks 13y ago
Secret projects are a recipe for layoffs. Years ago I worked for a manager who wanted a few of us to work on a wildly impractical project. The main business wasn't getting accomplished, and the parent company that was funding the venture dissolved the company. One of the programmers there became a principal at a Silicon Valley VC firm--he doesn't mention his stint at the failed venture.
clockwerx 13y ago
Without trying to make this sound trivial, have you simply considered ignoring both individuals? You have a senior in the team that has a fair idea of what needs to be done. You know the problems. You know that working on this side project, in secret, is wrong; so why not agree at every meeting, discussion, etc that you will work on it, and then simply do whatever needs to be done. It is risky, as the manager will then likely try to fire you; but that's going to be difficult to sell: - At every point you've followed directions given in verbal conversations - If there's stuff in email, you simply agree to that as well - said manager is then documenting their own failure - You are delivering what the strategic parts of the business believe are the right thing - He'll justify trying to fire you... by revealing his secret project - All hell will break loose, and at the end of the day if you were demonstrably protecting revenue and following the overall strategic intent of the organistion, you'll just be treated as a dilligent cog in the machine. Directly raising it or confronting the issue is likely to make you appear argumentative or a "trouble maker". It doesn't matter if you are right, once it gets past a certain point, non-experts have no clue what's going on and rely on relationships, tone of conversation, and the amount of trust they feel. However, if you look harmless - nay, even too stupid to have done the wrong thing(!), you can likely let it wash over you and the team. Alternatively, just all take your sick leave at one time, due to "stress caused by long hours working on SECRET PROJECT NAME", cc HR. :P
- ms4720 13y ago
  Then Success goes to the manager and lead and failure goes to the team for not doing what they were told and agreed to do in writing. You are handing them a scapegoat.
d0100 13y ago
Why are people telling you to leave? If you confront the situation the worst is you'll get fired, get workers comp and what not. If you leave you get nothing.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  By leave, I suspect people mean get a new job then leave. Getting fired means a possible period of unemployment, and that may well be a problem.
- michaelt 13y ago
  The logic goes like this: 1. If you're going to do something that might get you fired, get another job lined up before you do it. 2. The leverage "threaten to resign" only works once; if you don't follow through it won't be credible again; and it marks you as having one foot out the door, making it less appealing to invest in training you or give you new responsibilities. 3. Even if you use leverage other than threatening to resign, moving jobs is guaranteed to get you away from your toxic boss, whereas trying to fix things isn't guaranteed to work. And at the same time you can probably learn some new technologies and get a salary bump. Once you've got another job lined up, you might as well take it. 4. Telling everyone what you really think in leaving e-mails / exit interviews never changes anything in the company, but might make you enemies or get you a bad reference. Why bother? Instead give them some bullshit about how it's a great company and you just felt it was time for a change. Of course, if you can confront the situation in a way that doesn't risk getting you fired, the above logic doesn't apply.
  - Isofarro 13y ago
    Don't threaten to resign. Make your argument, back it up with data and evidence, let managers the space to do the job they are supposed to do. If then they don't fix the problem, then just leave. There is only downside for threatening to leave, it scuppers your future in the company. As michaelt notes, don't bluff, have the next step lined up. At that point, there's no value in threatening to leave. Just hand in your notice, if they realise your value they tend to counter-offer anyway. But be sure leaving is the right thing for you.
amerika_blog 13y ago
Be sure you're right, then go ahead. Going ahead means talking to higher management, laying out your concerns ("I'm worried this may be the case" not "This is the case, absolutely, and you must act now!") then asking if they think you're right. I would also style this as a question of management theory, not the individual in question. "I believe Dan is using the STFU management technique and it's not a fit for our unique situation..."
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  That, I'd say, is the best answer so far. Do not confront anybody, just ask questions (to enlighten yourself), and let the upper management know about the secrets (because they obviously aren't secrets, your manager isn't allowed to have secrets, so you can freely talk about them). Be as friendly as you can be, and talk about policies, not people. They may actually not know about your division's problems, and correct the situation. Also, look for another job. It is possible that your manager has friends up there, and won't be fired. That means your team will, one way or the other.
pschastain 13y ago
If you talk to higher management, make sure the project neglect and subsequent loss of income is forefront in your concern. If the problem person has friends in higher management, you may be screwed one way or the other, but if you keep it about the finances of the company you stand a much better chance of being heard and even appreciated. Otherwise, I'd say update your resume and quietly start looking elsewhere.
intellectronica 13y ago
Start looking for a new job (or, if you feel up to the challenge, starting your own company). Once you feel comfortable that you can leave and start something else, you will also feel comfortable going to management and explaining the situation (make sure you have plenty of hard evidence). Then you'll be able to decide whether you stay and try to work with management to rearrange things in a way that's better both for the business and for yourself, or you move on to one of the other options you've already secured.
SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
> When we talk with the manager he thinks that it's not a big deal and once the tool is complete we will not have this kind of problem any more The idea that "the current system is rubbish, but the new system will be perfect" is common, and it is dangerous nonsense. Every large system has flaws, and throwing it away and starting over is the worst way to address them. Refactor if you can. Add the ability to refactor if you can't.
83457 13y ago
So the project manager and lead developer are hiding the work of multiple employees (division?) from from upper management? Many employees are getting payed for months of work to recreate a product--work that upper management would probably disagree with if asked. In what company is that even allowed? I can understand keeping something secret from other divisions or a small group focusing on something for a period of time but sounds very fishy and something that should be brought to the attention of your boss's boss or someone higher. Between work that may be worthless and losses, your project manager is effectively spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in an unauthorized manner.
- swamp40 13y ago
  Yes, I agree 100%. Someone is getting fired, but I seriously doubt they would let the whole team go. That's not how firing usually works. You cut the head off the snake, and put on a new head - not throw away the whole snake.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  "Many employees are getting payed for months of work to recreate a product--work that upper management would probably disagree with if asked. In what company is that even allowed?" Yes, I was wondering about that as well. And the significant loss in revenue - in my experience that usually leads to lots of questions. The office isn't overlooking the London wheel by any chance :-)
_random_ 13y ago
You grew personally attached - don't do that. Your co-workers are not your friends and you don't have a stake in that company. It is normal to change your job.
Beltiras 13y ago
Leave. Now.
nraynaud 13y ago
So I have this crazy idea that since I'm young and in IT, I should never try to protect my job. Just make a stink of it, lose your job (that sucks anyways), and find another one. If you do that often enough, you'll be the one always proposing changes, that's called a leader and it's the kind of people that get promoted.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  No, you'll be the person with a long resume who finds it hard to get a job!
inabin 13y ago
Honestly it sounds like I used to work for that company. If it's not the same one then the situation sounds damn near identical. The company I was at was too big to suddenly change direction and fire those people who were incompetent and the problem was that the issues the company had did not come from the bottom, they came from the top. Going to upper management in my case was not going to change anything on the ground for me immediately and if I did not see change in a month I was going to lose my mind. In the end I chose to resign because I needed change for myself one way or another and at least my resignation guaranteed that change for me. And like another commenter said here - getting a new programming job (especially in London!) is not that hard. Good luck :)
busbyjon 13y ago
You're in London, come join us, we're after some shit hot talent! Reply and I'll provide details if you're interested!
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
If you're not willing and able to stand up and speak up, you're just as unprofessional and incompetent as those you are blaming. I'm sorry I'm so blunt, but I'm getting so tired of developers whining as if they are victims. We are not poor exploited coal miners, we are well paid, sought after professionals. Start acting like it.
- Iftheshoefits 13y ago
  You're assuming that there is an equitable distribution of power, authority and responsibility, or that management is interested in mutual understanding and cooperation. That is often not the case. In fact, my experience is that management typically view employees essentially as either potential competition for their jobs or else inferiors to be treated as such.
- hosh 13y ago
  I don't think not standing up and speaking up necessarily means someone is just as unprofessional and incompetent. This is more a matter of courage than professionalism or competency.
  - MetaCosm 13y ago
    Also depends a lot on corporate culture. I was told at a company point blank "stop bringing <problem x> up". So I did (left shortly after).
    - hosh 13y ago
      Leaving shortly after -- good for you! Being told to stop bringing up a problem (that really is a problem) is for me, an indicator that the foundations of an organization is rotting, and the end is near.
- Bartweiss 13y ago
  I've never believed in the argument that silence is as bad as active complicity, but I think it's particularly untrue here. The impression I came away with was the the most likely outcome of challenging this decision is a quick dismissal for failing to follow instructions. Finding a new job is certainly a reasonable option, but expecting someone to mar their work history by being fired over a fight they can't win isn't productive.
busbyjon 13y ago
You're in London, come join us, we're after some shit hot talent! Reply and I'll provide details if you're interested!
hosh 13y ago
It sounds like the company is on its way to tanking. It might not have hit the tipping point yet, but if the senior leadership made a mistake at putting their worst manager on the best team, well ... ... My point is that, if you step up and lose your job, you got out while it is still good. If you don't step up, eventually, the company will collapse and now you are out of options. If you don't feel secure about it, perhaps you might want to start being open to looking for other opportunities.
mateo411 13y ago
First, find another job, then talk to upper management. The negative consequence of talking to upper management is that it would be difficult for you to work with the incompetent project manager in the future. Oh well. Help your coworkers find other jobs too. They might even follow you to your new company if you play your cards right.
a3n 13y ago
Leave. It's not your problem. You're not curing cancer (I assume) and your job means nothing to the universe, it's merely a way for you to gain energy until entropy wins and kills you. If you're old, then you'll have to focus and try harder than your younger colleagues, and you should start this very minute. Seriously, the vast majority of our jobs mean nothing. There are other, less stupid places to work. The vast majority of our employers won't exist in 100 years. So be happy and leave. Leave.
ceedan 13y ago
Stop being a lamb. Speak up or find a new job.
wavesum 13y ago
How about anonymously linking this post in an e-mail to the upper management?
brianmcconnell 13y ago
While its personally satisfying to be a "hero", it will just get you fired. I worked for a company whose CEO fired his outside accounting firm and replaced them with his wife, this in a company that grossed 5-10M per year. Super fishy, especially amid rumors that sales were off 20%. I asked him directly if he was hiding something that was material to our deal (we came in through an acquisition). I was promptly fired, or in legal speak "laid off due to business reasons". I'll never forget the comically bad exit interview, which ended in me being tackled by one of the managers in an attempt to obtain my cell phone. So unless you want to be a martyr, just quit. Agree also that management put that bozo there, nothing you can do about it except leave.
Codhisattva 13y ago
Just quit. Tomorrow. Life is too short to waste time on crap corporate politics and the culture of failure. Frankly, it's probably not worth the time it would take to do a brain dump to upper management, HR or any potentially interested party. I wouldn't volunteer anything unless someone who seemed genuinely interested asked.
franze 13y ago
my 2cents either a) you do not care anymore about the success company and only care about job security b) you do care about the success of your company if a) is the case, quite now! you are part of the problem. you are blaming them but are at the same time not willing to take the consequences of doing the right thing. or b) speak up, all the time, to anyone, not just with your peers, but also to anyone else. call this "to change the dance" you are changing how you behave, to other have to react. they will be pissed, they will blame you. they might fire you (good for you, then) or they will change their dance. there is no alternative, everything else will just go downhill. recommended reading: http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-Mysteries-Organizational/dp/1576754553 http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-Mysteries-Org... buy it, read it, understand what is currently happening and what your role in it is.
gringofyx 13y ago
There are two schools of thought at work, and you need to decide which one is for you: 1) You're paid to do a job, in a hierarchical management structure each tier must delegate and trust the tier below it. It's not your job to criticise your manager, it's the job of your managers manager, at the end of the day none of the developers are at fault for simply being told what to do. 2) You're personally and emotionally committed, you know you shouldn't do it but you want to take on the problems of the team, and by proxy, the problems of the company. If that's the case then voice your concerns because it'll stress the fuck out of you otherwise. Don't voice them to your manager, voice them to your managers manager. Don't get all emotional when voicing your concerns just lay out the facts calmly and impartially and go with whatever they say. My opinion on this is that if you've taken the time to submit to HN, then you're Option 2 and it's going to eat at you. Even if you leave like many people have suggested you're going to feel bad for your team. Voice your concerns and then try to emotionally distance yourself from the company (unless they get the hint and fire the idiot manager). Then start looking for another job and advise the same to your colleagues. Lot's of people here are saying to look for a job first, if you voice your concerns now, in the UK, it's unlikely they'll just fire you without any notice or any severance pay. If you're in London and half decent, you'll find employment pretty quickly. Best of luck ;)
jerven 13y ago
This being an post complaining about weather in London, English law can be assumed to apply. First of all consult a local solicitor in employment law. Collect all your reviews and e-mails about your job performance in the last years. The solicitor can tell you what your risks are as losing a job can be a big financial problem. This will cost you a 100 to 300 GBP which is worth it. (have a look around see if a trade union can help you for much less) Then document what is going on with the secret project and if possible show where your boss has lied on paper/e-mail. Then either schedule a meeting with your bosses boss and ask internal legal council to be present if it is in your company do this personally and make sure the meeting is on short notice and preferably early in the day. If possible have a basic recovery plan available but do not give it unless asked for it. You should show concern for the business not look like you want your bosses job. During this period of course look for new opportunities elsewere as, if your current boss stays your boss work is not going to be any fun. Even if they can't fire you now.

81 points by firefoxd 13y ago

Resign, if you can. This seems to me an organization with a toxic ecosystem that's neither healthy for you or your co-workers. It's ridiculous that the strategy team isn't aware of these shenanigans and that tells me, the structure of the organization is hopelessly broken (besides the manager they don't want to get rid of). In my experience, management isn't the sort of thing that's easy to fix or, IMO, worth fixing in the longer run. If you're not a founder/investor or in other way have a horse in this race, you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) to waste precious time off your life in a hierarchy that isn't going anywhere and is utterly clueless. Resigning may give you better options later on than getting fired. It's going to be tough depending on how well you can function on reserves, but if I were you, I would be tiding up my resume immediately and sending out feelers elsewhere. It's a big ocean out there.

lucaspiller 13y ago
> you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) to waste precious time off your life in a hierarchy that isn't going anywhere and is utterly clueless. I beg to differ. It sounds like the whole department is at risk. If I was in the position I wouldn't want to just quit and leave everyone else - who I work with on a daily basis - to face the consequences. I would try speaking to upper management and seeing how that goes. At the very least let them know about the PMs regime to rewrite everything - "What, you didn't know this was happening?". I would actually speak to them rather than just emails. If they don't seem bothered, and nothing happens, then get out. But at least you know that you tried, and don't have to feel guilty about leaving.
- dasil003 13y ago
  I agree with this because it seems to be essentially one bad apple that is screwing everything up. If the team was working okay before under the previous PM and lead developer then there's no reason to think all hope is lost. At least not yet.
  - troels 13y ago
    Yet this bad apple sunk one department and then got transferred to a highly profitable one. It sounds to me that he is very well connected or otherwise good at office politics. Taking him on would likely end in defeat. I would suggest to get out of there.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      He doesn't need to "take him on". He needs to gather information to decide whether or not he needs to leave. If one jumps to conclusions and passive aggressively resigns every time one encounters dysfunction in an organization then one will never be able to work on a team larger than 3 or 4 people.
- mosselman 13y ago
  It sounds noble, but lets face it, he is not on a battlefield with dying comrades or something. Colleagues are not your family, they are in charge of their own lives and they can leave too if they want to. Would you want someone to come work a job he now hates just so that you wouldn't feel bad about him leaving? Grow up. Just start looking for a new job and leave as soon as you can. A company that makes these kinds of choices in terms of job filling cannot be worth your time.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Depending on how dysfunctional things are, doing what you propose could blow-up in the guy's face. I think it is a fine thing to do, but make sure you've got job offers in hand before you do it.
amirmc 13y ago
> "... you literally have no incentive (besides immediate salary) ... Resigning may give you better options later on than getting fired. It's going to be tough depending on how well you can function on reserves ..." The OP mentioned London and the timescales indicate he's been in the company a while. Therefore, I'd encourage him to check his contract and employment law as 'being fired' isn't a trivial undertaking for the employer (there can be negotiation and comp agreements). I definitely agree with the sentiment to refresh his CV and be prepared to leave but not if it's going to cause financial hardship. Once he understands his position, I'd try bypassing the manager and feeling out the higher ups about what they do and do not know about this 'secret' project. If it turns out that there's tacit support from above I'd consider that a big warning sign.
- walshemj 13y ago
  In UK law being fired for you bosses misdemeanors is a non starter the op is not liable. If the company looks like its going to make people redundant as a result of this project going bad don't resign as you will miss out on any possible redundancy.

gfosco 13y ago

I would likely have gone over his head to higher management some time ago. The only reason not to is job security, but I swear to you it's better to go out having done the right thing.

AndrewDucker 13y ago
I agree. Go see senior management, and tell them what kind of unholy clusterfuck is occurring inside their top area.
- amirmc 13y ago
  Be very careful with this approach. You've no idea what those above know or do not know and if handled badly, it could blow up in your face.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  I would do that only if/when you've resigned to leaving or being let go. I've seen it turn out both ways - things get cleaned up, and the whistleblower is effectively pushed out. If you end up staying and treated well for raising the alarm, great. If not, you may be let go within days or sounding the alarm - be prepared.

pan69 13y ago

A day job isn't supposed to be this political and stressful. Get the hell out of there.

devsatish 13y ago

Now that things are so bad, the best thing to do is to keep higher ups and other peers(yours and your managers's) in the organization, a quick update on what's going on in your group. Make sure to have some good metrics/data collected to have the case strong. Remember: When concerned about loyalty, Your loyalty is not just to the manager, but to the organization.

aplummer 13y ago

If it is as bad as you say, send an earnest letter to whoever owns the company. If that's the founder, shareholders, whoever has the owners equity in the company. Better yet, if possible, find them in person and address them that way if you have the confidence/acumen. Get your resume sorted but don't touch the linkedin as it will show you might be thinking of jumping ship. It sounds like you enjoy the project and would rather solve the issue than leave. A project being developed in secret is completely f'ed (and could be illegal depending on your company structure) and they would have to be mental for reprimanding you for bringing transparency to it.

dasil003 13y ago
I think he should go to the PM's boss and to request an in-person meeting to raise the issue. Depending on how big the company is, the CEO may be way too high up to have any clue about the people he's talking about; he needs to get a read on the situation based on the PM's boss' reaction to figure out his next move.
jpatokal 13y ago
Psst: you can easily disable LinkedIn's profile update notifications. http://jobsearch.about.com/od/linkedin/ss/linkedin-profile-tips_7.htm http://jobsearch.about.com/od/linkedin/ss/linkedin-profile-t...

HarrietJones 13y ago

Go over your managers head. Go to the person who is in charge of your manager, and tell them what's going on. Inform them that your manager's messing this up with a secret side project. I'd also be tempted to go back to your original project. If your new manager's taught you anything, it's that it is OK to work secretly on stuff without reporting to management. See if you can get the whole team to revolt.

throwhawaii 13y ago

Story of my life! Except the system was our bread winner and the redesign was no secrecy. We knew something was wrong but we all wanted to see the company succeed so we kept going way after the project was late and over budget. In the end we failed and everyone competent left. My advice will be that you leave if you can. If that is not an option then work up the courage to tell some higher ups what's going on. You will burn bridges with the manager but you will save yourself and the rest of your team from the pain of coming to work every morning knowing they are partly responsible for something bad that is about to happen.

rmc 13y ago

Fuck 'em. Get a new job. Capitalism at work baby. Hire a crappy manager, capitalism means the company will lose skilled employees and go under.

blindhippo 13y ago
You keep using this word: 'capitalism'. I don't think you know what it means.

thu 13y ago

It seems a lot of people think you can sort things out by speaking with higher managment but it looks like the organization is broken, not just the new manager otherwise he wouldn't be in a position to brake a second department. There is a communication problem too. Why isn't anybody talking about thoses site going down ? Why is it so formal/difficult to talk about problems with other managers and other departments ? It's unfortunate, but a few (even just one or two) guys can brake an organization when they are at the top.

kelvinn 13y ago
Agreed. The natural first response is to play politics (not always bad) and escalate via some other back channel, but often times direct confrontation in the right setting is more effective.

babarock 13y ago

You can either resign silently, or step up and go talk honestly with higher management with the risk of getting fired. In any case, you shouldn't continue working like that. Finding a new job is easier than you think it'll be. Living in such a stressful environment is not worth it. The only thin you'll regret is not doing something about it.

stesch 13y ago
Finding a new job is easier than you think it'll be. Maybe he is older than 35?
- sspiff 13y ago
  Is it that much harder to find a job when you turn 35? I mean, a lot of my older colleagues have had a hard time finding jobs, but most of them are not very passionate about what they do. They want to work right next to their own front door, they don't want to sacrifice any pay or holiday credit, and they prefer not to learn new things and stick to the familiar. (I know of a few exceptions, and I'm not claiming this is true for all >35yo employees) I wonder: if you keep learning new things, continue to be passionate about your field etc, is it that much harder to find a new job just because you're older?
  - artificialidiot 13y ago
    You can't convince an adult to work himself to death to enrich someone else. At least, not that easily. The problem can also be understood as a lack of demand for experience. Noone realistically needs any experience beyond a few side projects to get started. With abundant open source software, many people's roles are reduced to an assembly line worker who knows how to operte the tool in hand.
    - GoodIntentions 13y ago
      >>an assembly line worker who knows how to operte the tool in hand. This is one problem imho, that stands in the way of more mature developers landing jobs and of juniors advancing. There is a trend to use 3rd party libraries as rad tools even when they don't fully fill the needs, and a tendency to use 3rd party tools to prevent your coders from really needing to code. Architects know they're going to hand off to code monkeys, so they force designs to fit existing 3rd party libraries and any complexity gets pushed to the design side, not the implementation side. Why hire and pay extra for experience when a grad can do it?

chris_wot 13y ago

An incompetent manager is moved to the most profitable division? This indicates that the individual is highly connected in the company. Brush up your CV, get the heck out or request a division transfer.

MetaCosm 13y ago
Sad truth. :(

suhailpatel 13y ago

I'd have to agree with most of the comments on here from what you describe. Considering your last sentence, you are in London where there are no shortage of tech jobs. Brush up your resume and send it out. Good luck!

barrkel 13y ago

The weather in London is not ugly right now. Just for the record.

UK-AL 13y ago

I really would not talk to upper management. If the guy got moved to a profitable department, it means he has friends there. You're gonna lose, and risk a bad reference which would make it difficult to get a new job. Remember who put him there, if it was bad choice, it means upper management made a bad decision. In my experience upper management will do anything but admit to a bad decision. Just silently leave for another job, try to make sure you will get a good/neutral reference. Remember future employers will just think your bad/unskilled if you get a bad reference rather than the fact you got into politics. Larger companies have an automatic no, to bad references and won't accept excuses. Since they assume your a bad person/almost criminal (the only point large corporates will give a bad reference normally) and probably lying. Limiting you to small companies for your next job. Its nice to think you can be a hero and fix this, but you can only do that if your someone with significant power in the company like a founder, or an early employee who is best buds with senior management. Since HN is full of these types, they can be idealistic. I've been through situations like this, and this is what I would do now rather then potentially making your life hell. Situations like this is a massive problem with modern company structure.

hugofirth 13y ago
As a side point - am I incorrect in believing that it is, in fact, Illegal to give a bad reference? I was under the impression that your only recourse was, instead, to decline to provide a reference at all.
- amirmc 13y ago
  There's damming with faint praise, or the non-commital 'yeah, he worked here between these dates'. Neither one of those says anything bad per se, but they can signal the unwillingness to provide a good reference.
- noir_lord 13y ago
  This is true in practice if not in law. Many large companies will not give a reference at all merely confirming dates worked from and too. I think it was because someone once sued (successfully) over a bad reference.

kelvinn 13y ago

To get into the mindset of the managers, consider skimming James Collins' book "Good to Great". One point to take away is that any leaders in your organisation will appreciate the brutal facts. Make sure you have documented what issues and risks you have expressed to the PM and Lead Developer - maybe actually in whatever tool you are using, or at least in email. Make a record that team's morale is decreasing. You and each of your team members should directly be telling the PM and Lead Developer that you are worried with specific risks or issues. Take the registers to somebody with more authority in your organisation. Come in with a few recommendations. Present the facts and tell them you think there's a problem, and ask if they agree or not. If they do agree, make sure to get what the next action will be. Just my immediate thoughts. Good luck.

UK-AL 13y ago
This is super idealistic. In reality in small/medium companies people are connected and group together, and protect their friends. Most likely the pm is friends with the senior manager.
- lazyjones 13y ago
  Also, in reality many employees do not have the insight or ability to identify critical issues they think they have.

bernatfp 13y ago

Just name the damn company and sooner or later the upper bosses will find out.

ExpiredLink 13y ago

>> Since the beginning of the year 2013 my department have lost more than 50% of its earnings and keeps losing at an alarming rate. Discussing with my team mates it is obvious what is going wrong: We have an incompetent project manager and lead developer and they are the only ones who seem to not notice that there is even a problem. The PM and the lead haven't noticed but certainly their boss. Wait and see. I don't think it's you who will be fired.

rdl 13y ago

Find a new job, now. You can probably get a raise. Finding a job while you already have one is easier than when unemployed. Posts like the "HN Who is Hiring" can help, although more US-focused. Decide if you should tell management about these issues (politely) on your way out. I'd be inclined to just leave quietly, though.

hannibal5 13y ago

If all of you agree, you can write a letter together that points out the problems and toxicity of the situation. Then you all sign the letter in alphabetical order and send it to the CEO of the company. If that fails, you can resign.

walshemj 13y ago
send it anonymously

mac01021 13y ago

Have any of you discussed this with the new incompetent PM? That seems like a natural first thing to do, before going over his head.

dutchbrit 13y ago

Don't resign just yet, find a new job first ;). Shouldn't be too hard!

brador 13y ago

Your job is not to make the company more profitable. It is to make money for yourself. You're a technician. Do the work, tick the boxes, while finding better employment and building your skillset. I wouldn't rock the boat under the reasoning that you gain nothing by doing such, except, maybe, a tiny chance at promotion. Moving jobs will likely net you a higher paycheck.

Tloewald 13y ago

It sounds like you're invested in the company/team and/or the project or this would be a no-brainer (leave). You could try confronting the lousy manager as a group (if you really do all agree), and if that fails go over his/her head. Then you've done the right thing by everyone. Maybe there are even some good ideas in the new design that could be moved to the existing design to help the idiot save face (at least offer a lifeline). Confronting the manager first means he/she can't claim he/she was ambushed, no-one ever said anything, and so forth.

ChristianMarks 13y ago

Secret projects are a recipe for layoffs. Years ago I worked for a manager who wanted a few of us to work on a wildly impractical project. The main business wasn't getting accomplished, and the parent company that was funding the venture dissolved the company. One of the programmers there became a principal at a Silicon Valley VC firm--he doesn't mention his stint at the failed venture.

clockwerx 13y ago

Without trying to make this sound trivial, have you simply considered ignoring both individuals? You have a senior in the team that has a fair idea of what needs to be done. You know the problems. You know that working on this side project, in secret, is wrong; so why not agree at every meeting, discussion, etc that you will work on it, and then simply do whatever needs to be done. It is risky, as the manager will then likely try to fire you; but that's going to be difficult to sell: - At every point you've followed directions given in verbal conversations - If there's stuff in email, you simply agree to that as well - said manager is then documenting their own failure - You are delivering what the strategic parts of the business believe are the right thing - He'll justify trying to fire you... by revealing his secret project - All hell will break loose, and at the end of the day if you were demonstrably protecting revenue and following the overall strategic intent of the organistion, you'll just be treated as a dilligent cog in the machine. Directly raising it or confronting the issue is likely to make you appear argumentative or a "trouble maker". It doesn't matter if you are right, once it gets past a certain point, non-experts have no clue what's going on and rely on relationships, tone of conversation, and the amount of trust they feel. However, if you look harmless - nay, even too stupid to have done the wrong thing(!), you can likely let it wash over you and the team. Alternatively, just all take your sick leave at one time, due to "stress caused by long hours working on SECRET PROJECT NAME", cc HR. :P

ms4720 13y ago
Then Success goes to the manager and lead and failure goes to the team for not doing what they were told and agreed to do in writing. You are handing them a scapegoat.

d0100 13y ago

Why are people telling you to leave? If you confront the situation the worst is you'll get fired, get workers comp and what not. If you leave you get nothing.

alan_cx 13y ago
By leave, I suspect people mean get a new job then leave. Getting fired means a possible period of unemployment, and that may well be a problem.
michaelt 13y ago
The logic goes like this: 1. If you're going to do something that might get you fired, get another job lined up before you do it. 2. The leverage "threaten to resign" only works once; if you don't follow through it won't be credible again; and it marks you as having one foot out the door, making it less appealing to invest in training you or give you new responsibilities. 3. Even if you use leverage other than threatening to resign, moving jobs is guaranteed to get you away from your toxic boss, whereas trying to fix things isn't guaranteed to work. And at the same time you can probably learn some new technologies and get a salary bump. Once you've got another job lined up, you might as well take it. 4. Telling everyone what you really think in leaving e-mails / exit interviews never changes anything in the company, but might make you enemies or get you a bad reference. Why bother? Instead give them some bullshit about how it's a great company and you just felt it was time for a change. Of course, if you can confront the situation in a way that doesn't risk getting you fired, the above logic doesn't apply.
- Isofarro 13y ago
  Don't threaten to resign. Make your argument, back it up with data and evidence, let managers the space to do the job they are supposed to do. If then they don't fix the problem, then just leave. There is only downside for threatening to leave, it scuppers your future in the company. As michaelt notes, don't bluff, have the next step lined up. At that point, there's no value in threatening to leave. Just hand in your notice, if they realise your value they tend to counter-offer anyway. But be sure leaving is the right thing for you.

amerika_blog 13y ago

Be sure you're right, then go ahead. Going ahead means talking to higher management, laying out your concerns ("I'm worried this may be the case" not "This is the case, absolutely, and you must act now!") then asking if they think you're right. I would also style this as a question of management theory, not the individual in question. "I believe Dan is using the STFU management technique and it's not a fit for our unique situation..."

marcosdumay 13y ago
That, I'd say, is the best answer so far. Do not confront anybody, just ask questions (to enlighten yourself), and let the upper management know about the secrets (because they obviously aren't secrets, your manager isn't allowed to have secrets, so you can freely talk about them). Be as friendly as you can be, and talk about policies, not people. They may actually not know about your division's problems, and correct the situation. Also, look for another job. It is possible that your manager has friends up there, and won't be fired. That means your team will, one way or the other.

pschastain 13y ago

If you talk to higher management, make sure the project neglect and subsequent loss of income is forefront in your concern. If the problem person has friends in higher management, you may be screwed one way or the other, but if you keep it about the finances of the company you stand a much better chance of being heard and even appreciated. Otherwise, I'd say update your resume and quietly start looking elsewhere.

intellectronica 13y ago

Start looking for a new job (or, if you feel up to the challenge, starting your own company). Once you feel comfortable that you can leave and start something else, you will also feel comfortable going to management and explaining the situation (make sure you have plenty of hard evidence). Then you'll be able to decide whether you stay and try to work with management to rearrange things in a way that's better both for the business and for yourself, or you move on to one of the other options you've already secured.

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago

> When we talk with the manager he thinks that it's not a big deal and once the tool is complete we will not have this kind of problem any more The idea that "the current system is rubbish, but the new system will be perfect" is common, and it is dangerous nonsense. Every large system has flaws, and throwing it away and starting over is the worst way to address them. Refactor if you can. Add the ability to refactor if you can't.

83457 13y ago

So the project manager and lead developer are hiding the work of multiple employees (division?) from from upper management? Many employees are getting payed for months of work to recreate a product--work that upper management would probably disagree with if asked. In what company is that even allowed? I can understand keeping something secret from other divisions or a small group focusing on something for a period of time but sounds very fishy and something that should be brought to the attention of your boss's boss or someone higher. Between work that may be worthless and losses, your project manager is effectively spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in an unauthorized manner.

swamp40 13y ago
Yes, I agree 100%. Someone is getting fired, but I seriously doubt they would let the whole team go. That's not how firing usually works. You cut the head off the snake, and put on a new head - not throw away the whole snake.
keithpeter 13y ago
"Many employees are getting payed for months of work to recreate a product--work that upper management would probably disagree with if asked. In what company is that even allowed?" Yes, I was wondering about that as well. And the significant loss in revenue - in my experience that usually leads to lots of questions. The office isn't overlooking the London wheel by any chance :-)

_random_ 13y ago

You grew personally attached - don't do that. Your co-workers are not your friends and you don't have a stake in that company. It is normal to change your job.

Beltiras 13y ago

Leave. Now.

nraynaud 13y ago

So I have this crazy idea that since I'm young and in IT, I should never try to protect my job. Just make a stink of it, lose your job (that sucks anyways), and find another one. If you do that often enough, you'll be the one always proposing changes, that's called a leader and it's the kind of people that get promoted.

chris_wot 13y ago
No, you'll be the person with a long resume who finds it hard to get a job!

inabin 13y ago

Honestly it sounds like I used to work for that company. If it's not the same one then the situation sounds damn near identical. The company I was at was too big to suddenly change direction and fire those people who were incompetent and the problem was that the issues the company had did not come from the bottom, they came from the top. Going to upper management in my case was not going to change anything on the ground for me immediately and if I did not see change in a month I was going to lose my mind. In the end I chose to resign because I needed change for myself one way or another and at least my resignation guaranteed that change for me. And like another commenter said here - getting a new programming job (especially in London!) is not that hard. Good luck :)

busbyjon 13y ago

You're in London, come join us, we're after some shit hot talent! Reply and I'll provide details if you're interested!

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

If you're not willing and able to stand up and speak up, you're just as unprofessional and incompetent as those you are blaming. I'm sorry I'm so blunt, but I'm getting so tired of developers whining as if they are victims. We are not poor exploited coal miners, we are well paid, sought after professionals. Start acting like it.

Iftheshoefits 13y ago
You're assuming that there is an equitable distribution of power, authority and responsibility, or that management is interested in mutual understanding and cooperation. That is often not the case. In fact, my experience is that management typically view employees essentially as either potential competition for their jobs or else inferiors to be treated as such.
hosh 13y ago
I don't think not standing up and speaking up necessarily means someone is just as unprofessional and incompetent. This is more a matter of courage than professionalism or competency.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Also depends a lot on corporate culture. I was told at a company point blank "stop bringing <problem x> up". So I did (left shortly after).
  - hosh 13y ago
    Leaving shortly after -- good for you! Being told to stop bringing up a problem (that really is a problem) is for me, an indicator that the foundations of an organization is rotting, and the end is near.
Bartweiss 13y ago
I've never believed in the argument that silence is as bad as active complicity, but I think it's particularly untrue here. The impression I came away with was the the most likely outcome of challenging this decision is a quick dismissal for failing to follow instructions. Finding a new job is certainly a reasonable option, but expecting someone to mar their work history by being fired over a fight they can't win isn't productive.

busbyjon 13y ago

You're in London, come join us, we're after some shit hot talent! Reply and I'll provide details if you're interested!

hosh 13y ago

It sounds like the company is on its way to tanking. It might not have hit the tipping point yet, but if the senior leadership made a mistake at putting their worst manager on the best team, well ... ... My point is that, if you step up and lose your job, you got out while it is still good. If you don't step up, eventually, the company will collapse and now you are out of options. If you don't feel secure about it, perhaps you might want to start being open to looking for other opportunities.

mateo411 13y ago

First, find another job, then talk to upper management. The negative consequence of talking to upper management is that it would be difficult for you to work with the incompetent project manager in the future. Oh well. Help your coworkers find other jobs too. They might even follow you to your new company if you play your cards right.

a3n 13y ago

Leave. It's not your problem. You're not curing cancer (I assume) and your job means nothing to the universe, it's merely a way for you to gain energy until entropy wins and kills you. If you're old, then you'll have to focus and try harder than your younger colleagues, and you should start this very minute. Seriously, the vast majority of our jobs mean nothing. There are other, less stupid places to work. The vast majority of our employers won't exist in 100 years. So be happy and leave. Leave.

ceedan 13y ago

Stop being a lamb. Speak up or find a new job.

wavesum 13y ago

How about anonymously linking this post in an e-mail to the upper management?

brianmcconnell 13y ago

While its personally satisfying to be a "hero", it will just get you fired. I worked for a company whose CEO fired his outside accounting firm and replaced them with his wife, this in a company that grossed 5-10M per year. Super fishy, especially amid rumors that sales were off 20%. I asked him directly if he was hiding something that was material to our deal (we came in through an acquisition). I was promptly fired, or in legal speak "laid off due to business reasons". I'll never forget the comically bad exit interview, which ended in me being tackled by one of the managers in an attempt to obtain my cell phone. So unless you want to be a martyr, just quit. Agree also that management put that bozo there, nothing you can do about it except leave.

Codhisattva 13y ago

Just quit. Tomorrow. Life is too short to waste time on crap corporate politics and the culture of failure. Frankly, it's probably not worth the time it would take to do a brain dump to upper management, HR or any potentially interested party. I wouldn't volunteer anything unless someone who seemed genuinely interested asked.

franze 13y ago

my 2cents either a) you do not care anymore about the success company and only care about job security b) you do care about the success of your company if a) is the case, quite now! you are part of the problem. you are blaming them but are at the same time not willing to take the consequences of doing the right thing. or b) speak up, all the time, to anyone, not just with your peers, but also to anyone else. call this "to change the dance" you are changing how you behave, to other have to react. they will be pissed, they will blame you. they might fire you (good for you, then) or they will change their dance. there is no alternative, everything else will just go downhill. recommended reading: http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-Mysteries-Organizational/dp/1576754553 http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Systems-Unlocking-Mysteries-Org... buy it, read it, understand what is currently happening and what your role in it is.

gringofyx 13y ago

There are two schools of thought at work, and you need to decide which one is for you: 1) You're paid to do a job, in a hierarchical management structure each tier must delegate and trust the tier below it. It's not your job to criticise your manager, it's the job of your managers manager, at the end of the day none of the developers are at fault for simply being told what to do. 2) You're personally and emotionally committed, you know you shouldn't do it but you want to take on the problems of the team, and by proxy, the problems of the company. If that's the case then voice your concerns because it'll stress the fuck out of you otherwise. Don't voice them to your manager, voice them to your managers manager. Don't get all emotional when voicing your concerns just lay out the facts calmly and impartially and go with whatever they say. My opinion on this is that if you've taken the time to submit to HN, then you're Option 2 and it's going to eat at you. Even if you leave like many people have suggested you're going to feel bad for your team. Voice your concerns and then try to emotionally distance yourself from the company (unless they get the hint and fire the idiot manager). Then start looking for another job and advise the same to your colleagues. Lot's of people here are saying to look for a job first, if you voice your concerns now, in the UK, it's unlikely they'll just fire you without any notice or any severance pay. If you're in London and half decent, you'll find employment pretty quickly. Best of luck ;)

jerven 13y ago

This being an post complaining about weather in London, English law can be assumed to apply. First of all consult a local solicitor in employment law. Collect all your reviews and e-mails about your job performance in the last years. The solicitor can tell you what your risks are as losing a job can be a big financial problem. This will cost you a 100 to 300 GBP which is worth it. (have a look around see if a trade union can help you for much less) Then document what is going on with the secret project and if possible show where your boss has lied on paper/e-mail. Then either schedule a meeting with your bosses boss and ask internal legal council to be present if it is in your company do this personally and make sure the meeting is on short notice and preferably early in the day. If possible have a basic recovery plan available but do not give it unless asked for it. You should show concern for the business not look like you want your bosses job. During this period of course look for new opportunities elsewere as, if your current boss stays your boss work is not going to be any fun. Even if they can't fire you now.