11 ms·
I really can't think of anything good to say about this keyboard. I've used keyboards like this, and I've damaged my body with them. You know what matters a lot
by chrismonsanto 13y ago
I really can't think of anything good to say about this keyboard. I've used keyboards like this, and I've damaged my body with them. You know what matters a lot more than a backlight? Ergonomic design. Get a Kinesis Advantage instead.
- frewsxcv 13y agoIf only they were cheaper :/
- Sukotto 13y agoWhen pricing tools you have to consider the cost per time-unit, or cost per use. Looking at the total cost is a waste of time. How often do you input text into a computer (or sleep in a bed, or whatever). What is the hourly (or daily) cost of it over some reasonable timeframe (1 year, for example). At what price point is owning a better tool worth it? (health wise, opportunity cost wise, etc).
- mynameisvlad 13y agoYes, but your time-unit won't change if you get a Kinesis Advantage over a regular keyboard, so, even per time-unit, it's still more expensive.
- flogic 13y agoIf there is pain involved with one option, then it's logical to assume that time will change. When I do get wrist pain, it does cut into how I use my time.
- mynameisvlad 13y agoSure, but that would be assuming you personally are experiencing this pain. It goes back to what someone else in the thread said: Don't go looking for solutions if it isn't a problem you're experiencing.
- fusiongyro 13y agoI suppose that's true in a tacky arithmetic way. Shit keyboards are basically free. They also ruin your hands. So you have to prioritize a little. Having used the same Kinesis for six years I don't have a lot of sympathy for not being willing to shell out <$50/year for the most important part of the computer. In a discussion about someone trying to sell me a $150 dollar version of the free shit keyboard it seems even more disingenuous.
- RogerL 13y agoYes, but people are reporting that the very expensive keyboards are not helping them. So, we are not solving a problem for $300 or whatever, we are taking a chance at solving a problem at $300. That's a different optimization problem, with a perhaps different solution.
- w1ntermute 13y agoHas anyone used the foot pedals with the Kinesis Advantage or Advantage Pro? Are they ergonomically recommended?
- chrismonsanto 13y agoI have the foot pedals. I never use them, because it is so convenient and comfortable to hit Ctrl/Alt with my thumbs. Maybe there are better keys to assign to my foot pedals, but I haven't really thought about it much.
- paddy_m 13y agoI recently broke my arm and have been using foot pedals. I grabbed generic ones, and they help. I can't speak to the kinesis ones, they didn't seem to be easily programmable. The feel of the pedals I bought is horrible. Screwing them into a board with a carpet pad beneath helps a lot for organization.
- kps 13y agoI have a triple foot pedal (from an old dictaphone) but never use it.
- Mindless2112 13y ago...or a Goldtouch Adjustable Comfort keyboard for a slightly less eccentric layout. Even a Microsoft Comfort Curve keyboard will treat you better than the world's greatest straight keyboard.
- mmastrac 13y agoI've been using split keyboards for many years and my wrists have thanked me for it. I get weird looks and people have a hard time using them, but it's worth it.
- tomphoolery 13y agoI have trouble typing on an ergonomic keyboard, otherwise I'd probably use it. Incidentally, after years of proper piano training I feel like I hold my wrists in such a way that if I mostly keep typing, I won't strain my wrists too hard...and be able to type constantly all day. I only get pain in the wrists when using a Trackpad, surprisingly enough.
- artgon 13y agoI've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic keyboard for a long time and it's relieved a lot of wrist pains I used to have. I'm a little tentative to switch to something without a palm rest and without being able to position my hands farther apart. This looks pretty good, though. I've been looking for a new mechanical keyboard for a while but haven't found anything that quite fits yet. Would love to hear some reviews once this gets out there.
- fhd2 13y agoAs someone who has suffered from RSI, my advice is to not fix a problem you don't have. I've been there, and it just cost me money. In my case, I didn't need a curved keyboard or a split keyboard, those things ended up in the cupboard. I just had to get rid of the numpad to change my position from awkward to healthy. So, for me, this keyboard is actually interesting, the variant without the numpad that is.
- stormbrew 13y agoWhy does the numpad make your position awkward by its presence? Can't you just pretend it's not there? Every keyboard I've owned since the late 80s has had a numpad and I've hardly ever used it. Oh never mind, I see your reply to the top post below now. Because it moves the mouse too far away.
- stevelosh 13y agoIt's because it takes up space and puts the mouse further to the right. Tenkeyless fans like how you can have the mouse in a more comfortable place.
- CWIZO 13y agoYou have to move your hand more if there is a numerical part. Make the keyboard narrower and you reduce hand movements by a lot. And that helps.
- fhd2 13y agoIt forced me to either move the keyboard too far to the left or the mouse too far the right, the former causing wrist pain in both hands, the latter causing pain in the right wrist. So, what fixed my pain was the smaller keyboard, not the lack of a numpad. The numpad just happends to be a big, expendable chunk :) One of the keyboards I got in order to fix this was a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which includes the numpad and is also wider than what I've used before. So getting an ergonomic keyboard actually made things worse in one case.
- reddit_clone 13y ago
- banachtarski 13y agoI tried it and it didn't work for me. Hand size was wrong and the placement of the modifier keys was unintuitive. With my day-to-day usage, I couldn't come up with a mapping that fit my needs.
- hkmurakami 13y agoI agree that with small hands, reaching the number row of a Kinesis advantage can be a challenge (I use one for my RSI issues, and I'm right at the threshold of hand size)
- rbanffy 13y agoThe perfect one for me would be a clicky/mechanical, buckling spring, backlit Microsoft Natural. If you are into straight keyboards, http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A http://pckeyboard.com/page/PC122/UB40B5A
- hobs 13y agoYep! I like this code keyboard, but its ergo or no go.
- coldpie 13y agoI've been using the plain, MS Natural keyboards for over a decade; all the way back to when they had normal arrow key & home-cluster layouts. I buy one for every computer I use with any regularity, which turns out to be one at home and one at the office. My biggest complaint is they're not super durable. A single spill of water will destroy the keyboard (I've gone through about 5 this way), and the buttons do wear out over time (my home keyboard's '1' key is wearing out). As you say, a better built, mechanical MS Natural would be God's Own Keyboard.
- urza 13y agoI am also using[1] microsoft natural keyboard, because it is the best (for me) combination of ergonomic split-hand slightly skewed keyborad that has normal querty layout. BUT.. the quality of the kyeboard is terrible. I with it the MS Natural would get Cherry MX Clear keys and better wireless tranciever. 1 - http://urza.cc/pc2013 http://urza.cc/pc2013
- tiziano88 13y ago+1, I use and love my Kinesis Advantage, one of the best investment I've ever made
- stormbrew 13y agoIs there actually any evidence ergonomic keyboards reduce risk of RSI? Last time I looked into it it seemed like marketing fluff with no actual studies that backed it up.
- fhd2 13y agoRSI is a complex thing. Some people have pain that is fixed by uniquely shaped keyboards, others need to just switch ctrl and capslock, get rid of the numpad or whatever. I don't think there is such a thing as a keyboard that cures any kind of RSI. But I do think something super flexible like the Kinesis Freestyle comes close.
- gavinpc 13y agoI love emacs, but I can definitely see how rms got RSI. Like Jeff, I was not content with any of the available keyboards. I have two Kinesis Freestyles (the old one and the new one), and they are both great. But the halves only separate by 20", which is not enough to mount them on armrests. So, I cut the separator cord one night, only to find that it contained twenty fine, individually shielded wires. At length, I reconnected them with an extension piece (three CAT-5 cables), first with breadboard (proof of concept), and eventually with soldering, heatshrink wrap, etc. I am NOT a hardware guy, and this took forever. But it was worth it. Freestyle nitpicks: (1) The hardwired keys along the left (C-x, C-C, C-v, etc) are pointless and easy to hit by accident, yet hard to find on purpose. (2) "B" should be on both sides. (3) It would be nice if the two spacebars were distinguishable. I'd map one of them to Ctrl. Mapping caps lock to ctrl is invaluable. (Except when you're on someone else's machine and you're constantly WRITING IN CAPS.)
- chrismonsanto 13y agoMapping caps lock->ctrl destroyed my pinkies on Emacs, just saying... thumb modifier keys is the way to go IMO
- gavinpc 13y ago
- eikenberry 13y agoBuy if for the Ergonomics, keep it for the thumb modifier keys. I can't go back to a normal keyboard now. Having the modifier keys under your thumbs is just to damn nice.
- hkmurakami 13y agoGotta admit that I wish the shift keys were on my thumbs too.
- eikenberry 13y ago+1. Plus some extra keycaps for when you remap them.
- kps 13y agoThere is ‘room’ in the matrix for additional keys, and various people have experimented with adding switches. See http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0
- pkamb 13y agoI've always wanted to buy the Japanese version of my favorite keyboard, and remap the extra thumb keys to modifiers: http://i.imgur.com/uRI0joS.jpg http://i.imgur.com/uRI0joS.jpg
- codinghorror 13y agoI love ergonomic keyboards too, but they're extremely specialized. A mass market keyboard needs to appeal to as many folks as possible, and using the "classic" standard keyboard layout is the best way to do that. There is a tenkeyless option if that helps, and there is room at the front for a wrist rest that can be periodically replaced as it wears.
- DennisP 13y agoMy wrists seem ok, but my finger joints felt like they were developing arthritis, which is a common malady for typists. I bought a couple Leopolds (one with red switches, one brown), learned to type without bottoming out much, and it cleared right up.
- Miyamoto 13y agoI'm the opposite. I used to use ergonomic keyboards, including a Kinesis keyboard many years ago. It never solved my RSI pain. What did solve my RSI pain was simple: posture. The height of my desk/chair/keyboard/mouse/monitor were not in proper alignment. Once I properly adjusted all heights the pain went away in weeks. I also got a tenkeyless (Filco Majestouch 2) mechanical keyboard, which helped for its form factor.
- hkmurakami 13y agoDo you have a setup guide you recommend that others follow, or did you do it by feel and what felt comfortable to you?
- Miyamoto 13y agoThis page kind of explains it: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html The middle image is how I used to be. My fixed desk was too high (even with my chair at maximum height) and so my arm/wrist was bent up. I then got a height-adjustable desk and a monitor stand, and I made my setup more like the top image. However, my monitor is quite a bit higher that what is shown in that first image. I look straight ahead and don't tilt my head down.
- hollerith 13y agoI used a Kinesis Advantage for many months as my only keyboard, but did not recover from RSI until I got rid of it. Now I use Logitech scissor-switch keyboards (the K750 and the K800). Oddly enough, even though it has the same basic scissor-switch design as the Logitech keyboards, I do very poorly with Apple keyboards (and I did use one exclusively for a few months). I guess there's no single solution to RSI that works for every typist! P.S. What really got me over my RSI is learning piano teacher Dorothy Taubman's technique for prevention of RSI.
- snarfy 13y agoI went through two K800s before giving up and getting a mechanical. The K800 is buggy and broken. The first K800 I owned, the spacebar broke off within 2 hours of using it. I sent it back for a replacement. I was a lot easier, and cautious with the replacement, which ultimately hindered my typing ability. There was some kind of key ghosting going on that disallowed me to type "ID" too fast. The D would always miss. I had to purposefully slow down when typing things like UserID, ProductID, things I type all day every day as a programmer. That was the last straw for me. Just off the top of my head I count over $1000 worth of logitech stuff I own, but the K800 is the first product I would recommend against.
- hollerith 13y agoI am glad you wrote because I used the K800 for only 2 weeks. (I bought and returned a K800 because of a consideration that is relevant to only a tiny fraction of users.) I have owned three K750s though. The K750 is a lot more likely to break than a good mechanical keyboard is, and the (silicone membranes in the) keyswitches get mushy a lot faster than mechanical keyswitches do, with the result that even though the acquisition cost is a half or a third of a good mechanical keyboard, the total cost of ownership is not any lower than with a mechanical keyboard, but I prefer them because their durability is within reason, they're very thin (short in the vertical dimension) and they're more "convenient" (specifically, they're wireless, and I can pick one up with one hand). The tactile experience is almost as good as with a mechanical board. 90 or 95% as good, in my experience.
- jseliger 13y agoI switched to a Kinesis Advantage years ago, and it's hard for me to imagine going back to a flat keyboard full-time for the reasons I wrote about here: http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years-later/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on... .