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I'm having a good laugh over this headline for a very simple reason. A few years back when the iPhone was selling more than all Android devices combined, peopl

by RyanZAG 13y ago

I'm having a good laugh over this headline for a very simple reason. A few years back when the iPhone was selling more than all Android devices combined, people were quick to say that Android would never be able to compete since it's 'too geeky'. Awhile later when Android took off a bit and all of the Android devices together sold more than the iPhone, people were quick to say how it's just one supplier (Apple) vs many suppliers producing Android phones. Bit later, Samsung is doing really well with their Galaxy range, and suddenly Samsung alone is selling more devices than Apple. People then say how Samsung sells tons of different devices while Apple only sells one. Again, a bit later, a quarter arrives where a single Samsung device (I believe it was the S3?) outsold the iPhone. People were then very quick to point out how profits are important, and Apple makes more profits than anybody making Android. Well, look at the news now. Samsung now overtakes Apple in profits as well. I'm sure we'll have some new goalposts shortly that we can wait for. These issues (profitability, marketshare, etc) are not ends to themselves - they are only symptoms or indicators of the real market forces behind them. The real issue is that Google/Android are out competing Apple in features, price and 'freedom'. 'Freedom' in this case being a nebulous concept that translates on-the-ground into something like 'able to load up porn apps on your phone if you want to'.

pavs 13y ago
I find this "us versus them" and corporate worshipping a bit troubling. I use an Android phone (S3) now, I used to use iPhone, but I didn't really like the direction they were heading. So I chose the phone OS ecosystem I liked. One thing that annoys me more than Apple fanboys are Android fanboys.
- usethis 13y ago
  Yes, who cares, the user decides for an eco system and that's it. I am happy with Apple, they serve my every perceived need and as long as they are not too expensive or too far behind, I am not going to change. This is mostly preaching to the choir anyway.
- PommeDeTerre 13y ago
  Merely pointing out the hypocritical arguments of some Apple supporters does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". Merely pointing out the functional differences between iOS and Android does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". Merely pointing out the philosophical differences between iOS and Android does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". To generalize this, merely pointing out things that can be perceived as negative about one product/company/person does not mean that the person expressing such ideas automatically supports some competing product/company/person.
  - pavs 13y ago
    Not sure where you are heading with this. To make my point more clear, why on earth would you or anyone care about how much money the manufacturer of a product you use (or has similar OS to the product you use) make or by how much money its beating its main competitor in this quarter? I can think of three possibilities: - You are a market analyst. - You are an investor. - You are fanboy. I am going to go with fanboy.
    - cageface 13y ago
      Or: - You are a developer that has to make some bets about where to focus resources and learning time.
      - pavs 13y ago
        If you are on mobile business, its currently a duopoly, if you are not investing on both top 2 platform you are doing it wrong. I would also probably categorize this in to "investor", in the sense that your business is investing on that platform, so profit margin of that platform in a relevant information for you.
      - mwfunk 13y ago
        The original poster wasn't coming from that perspective either. He was basically Grubering for Android, which is about as interesting and insightful as when Gruber does it for iOS.
- danieldk 13y ago
  Even more, it's surprising to see this mentality on Hacker News. You'd think that we love technology and try whatever is best at this moment. I have never really used Windows, but I like Microsoft's work on Metro and Windows Phone, so I also have a Lumia (besides being an Apple user in general).
  - harrytuttle 13y ago
    Same for me. I spend most of my time on Linux these days but I have a Lumia (720). Great phone. Just works and can get through 3 days without a charge! The only thing that sucks is it doesn't have a decent ssh client but that is remedied by the fact it works as a tether and I can use my laptop with it. I don't like running root on a touch screen device either due to the massive danger mistyping as root and shooting something.
    - networked 13y ago
      Today was my first real experience with Windows Phone (I set up a -- yes -- Samsung device running Windows Phone 7.8, the latest update to the previous release, for a relative). My first impression of it was that the UI and the core apps felt responsive and well-designed. Sadly, I ran into a error whereby Outlook.com refused to import an Outlook 2007 CSV file with contacts to sync with the phone. I soon figured out the reason behind the error was Office 2007's UI language being set to something other than English, which caused Outlook to generate a header for the CSV file with the field names listed in that locale, which in turn Outlook.com refused to parse. Disappointing, particularly in light of otherwise decent localization. Other than that, though, actually using it has more or less convinced me to consider a Windows Phone device as my next phone. AFAIK, WP8 doesn't rely on Zune the way WP7 does. Does it play well with Linux in practice? By the way, how do the privacy policies of Windows Phone and Microsoft Live services compare to those of matching products from Apple and Google? I have tried and failed to find a systematic comparison (i.e., a table) of how much data about the user the three mobile OSes and their vendors' apps collect and what they say about redistribution the data to third parties. I'd rather not try to perform this analysis myself (IANAL). Perhaps there's a market opportunity here.
dombili 13y ago
Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. The things you've mentioned are completely valid points and they still exist. I'm not trying to overlook Samsung's success, but they _do_ sell tons of different devices while Apple only sell one (but 3 different versions), and profits _do_ matter. I'm not sure about this but I believe Apple still beats Galaxy S4 in terms of profits and iPhone 5 released last year in September. I also don't get this type of discussions. Technology evolves everyday. Apple used to beat other companies in terms of profits and market share, now Samsung is at the helm. Let's see what Apple can do this fall. As long as us, the consumer wins, I don't care who makes more money.
- statictype 13y ago
  Tangential to the discussion but: Profits matter to the company. Not to you or me (unless you or I work for the company or have stock in them). On the other hand, market share does affect consumers. The more popular your particular device is, the better it is for you (in terms of app availability, web compatibility, tech support etc...).
  - dombili 13y ago
    >Profits matter to the company. Not to you or me. Absolutely. I wasn't trying to say that profits matter to consumers (Indirectly it may effect them though, because more profits means more freedom for a company to try new things without being too worried about wasting money). >On the other hand, market share does affect consumers. The more popular your particular device is, the better it is for you. I agree, but I don't think it matters all that much. Just look at the current situation. Can you honestly say that Windows' ecosystem is better than Mac's, despite the indisputable market share of Windows? Same goes with Android vs iOS (although they're pretty close). An argument could be made that Microsoft only makes the software while Apple does both software and hardware, but Mac support, ecosystem, app quality is miles ahead of Windows, in my opinion.
    - cageface 13y ago
      This depends entirely on which particular app domain matters to you. If business software or games are your priority then Windows is a no-brainer first choice. For a lot of other things it's a tossup and for some domains like music creation software the Mac is arguably better.
btipling 13y ago
You see this too across device types. Some commentators trivialize "marketshare" when talking about iPhone, but when talking about iPads in separate posts, it's all about marketshare. Mental gymnastics. The remaining goal posts by the way are where apps get built first and general app quality. The time that developers move to Android after first making their app on iOS is probably shrinking. The disparity of where apps get made first is also probably shrinking. Another point about why is Android doing so well: Apple seriously needs to get better at services. They are amazing at hardware, they are great at software that runs on devices, but they have bombed again and again on software that runs as a service in the cloud. This severely limits them. Maps, mobile me, icloud syncing, they have trouble keeping their developer portal up, etc. I believe this is a problem with Apple's culture and what they value. Server software isn't pretty, and it's iterative. That is you bring up something that works, then make it better. Apple's culture is to wow with the first try, but they've been disappointing when it comes to software as a service.
- wisty 13y ago
  Apple doesn't have to get better at service. They just have to make sure that they don't lock other services out (especially when the other vendor is much better than Apple). Google doesn't care if iOS or Android wins - they just want lots of Google services on as many phones as possible. It's in Apple's interests to avoid sinking their platform simply to give their own in-house offerings a leg-up. I think that's one of the reasons Scott Forstall was forced out. It seems he was backing a lot of Apple's Data / AI / Cloud products, and may have wanted to keep Google out of iOS, in order to give his products an advantage. But Apple doesn't make money on Maps, it makes money selling the phone (and OS, and App store), and it's silly to hamstring your platform simply to give a few second-rate Apps an unfair advantage. (And they were second-rate - anyone who competes with Google's killer apps is taking a crazy risk).
  - bsaul 13y ago
    I disagree. The whole philosophy Apple bring to the mobile computer world is vertical integration : you own every layer so that the experience can be perfect. And every people that ever designed any system knows that : if your system needs to integrate with only one other, life is great. Integrate with two,and you're in trouble. Now, as i already said here, the problem isn't that they need to get better at service, the problem is that they need not to be absolute crap, and get some culture. If Apple Maps was only just as good as bing map, they could have made it. If iCloud was only just as good as dropbox, they could have made it. If "Ping" was only as good as... just any social network you could think of, then it could have leverage the other great apple system. The problem is that their server side is so bad, it can't even leverage other Apple strengths.
velodrome 13y ago
Apple is still better positioned. They have better control and less fragmentation. Samsung does not control the complete stack. They have to rely on Google for the OS. They are forced to comply with Google's licensing agreement. Samsung is really trying hard to find an alternative by pursuing Bada, Tizen, etc. Samsung was really clever at creating TouchWiz - an overlay on top of the traditional Android. Users will get use to this interface and Samsung can eventually swap out the stack underneath it (already attempted with Tizen). Google is a fool for letting Samsung get too powerful - to the point where Samsung can dictate terms and at the expense of Google's other partners. It's clear Google knows Samsung is a problem because most of the Nexus devices are now made by LG, Asus. However, LG also owns WebOS. Android is proven and the hardware has matured, Google should start producing it's own hardware as its partners are looking at alternatives.
- myko 13y ago
  > Users will get use to this interface and Samsung can eventually swap out the stack underneath it (already attempted with Tizen). This only works if Samsung allows the user to download/install their purchased apps from earlier phones though. As well as Google Music and other services the user might expect. > Google is a fool for letting Samsung get too powerful - to the point where Samsung can dictate terms and at the expense of Google's other partners. When did this happen? Samsung is a huge partner of Android. They make 1 of 3 current Nexus devices and made the previous 2 Nexus phones (more than any other manufacturer). This is a completely unrelated thing. Also, Samsung is one of the companies with a Google Experience version of their latest flagship (the S4) available on Google Play. > Google should start producing it's own hardware as its partners are looking at alternatives. Does Motorola count? The first few Google developed Motorola phones were just announced.
  - velodrome 13y ago
    > This only works if Samsung allows the user to download/install their purchased apps from earlier phones though. As well as Google Music and other services the user might expect. This is true. This is one of the many hurdles they need to overcome to switch to another platform. > When did this happen? Samsung is a huge partner of Android. They make 1 of 3 current Nexus devices and made the previous 2 Nexus phones (more than any other manufacturer). This is a completely unrelated thing. It's speculation really. The previous Nexus products were all made by Samsung. Why did Google suddenly start switching to other manufacturers? If Samsung made the best devices, why change? If your company commands the most profits and market share of a platform - do you not want to use this as leverage to some degree? Better bargaining power gives you a competitive advantage over other players (LG, Asus, HTC, etc). > Does Motorola count? The first few Google developed Motorola phones were just announced. It sure does. They need to speed things along though.
rdtsc 13y ago
A very important point to consider is that Apple is a lifestyle product. (I hate that word "lifestyle" but it somehow matches well here). There are people who have tattooed the Apple logo on their body. There aren't that many people who have tattooed Samsung's logo if I had to guess. Apple cultivated and created their brand (rebuilt it really, as it did go through a rough patch in the past were only true believers were left following it). But now it is the brand people worship. That is very important to consider when these articles are written. Most likely the writer is a tech savvy enough to personally either be in the Apple cult or not. And people will most often than not defend their own camp against the other camp. Those from the Apple camp who invested thousands of dollars in products will consciously and unconsciously defend it regardless of whatever the market is doing (as we've seen they've managed to twist and reinterpret the news in every possible to still make Apple come on top). Another point to consider is this. Apple is a luxury product affordable by many. It is luxury because there is not other luxury phone besides it. The riches and most opulent person out there, will probably still have an iPhone or iPad. They'd buy a diamond studded golden case dipped in platinum for it but it will still be an iPhone. And this is the same device that someone who is middle class or below can still obtain. Think about it. What other luxury products are the same. Cars? Nope. Watches? Nope. Clothes? Not really. So that serves to reinforce the cult following. Look I can have the same phone as <myfavoriteactor> or other <famousperson>. That is pretty powerful.
- vacri 13y ago
  You make good points, but it's worth mentioning that Samsung's logo is the word 'SAMSUNG' - it doesn't lend itself well to tattoos at all, even if you were particularly passionate about them. Windows has a 'picture' logo and occupies the same rung as samsung in the 'quality vs Apple' pie fight, but there are folks out there with winlogo tattoos. I've seen photos of a few different ones, but my guess would be that there's fewer than there would be for Apple.
- philwelch 13y ago
  There are some people with the Samsung logo tattooed on their bodies, but not so much because of Samsung itself: http://www.insideworldsoccer.com/2013/07/didier-drogba-hugs-chelsea-fan-tattoo-didier-drogba.html http://www.insideworldsoccer.com/2013/07/didier-drogba-hugs-...
gfodor 13y ago
I was curious if now, 5 years later, if the latest Android phone still is unable to scroll smoothly and animate smoothly between apps, at 60 fps, with no lag, and respond instantaneously to touches. These are key things the iPhone has done since it's first release since it's crucial to maintaining the illusion you are manipulating things on the screen. Every time I try the latest Android device in the store I just laugh in disbelief because inevitably it is laggy and slightly unresponsive, and feels like I am interacting with a computer. Googling around, it looks like the S4 still has animation lag in all sorts of places. Amazing. I mean, hats off to Samsung for getting as far as they have. They've basically exploited Google's engineering resources brilliantly and have been ruthlessly competitive. Their design skills seemed to have gotten slightly better, and bigger screens and every-feature-but-the-kitchen-sink moves phones when they are compared to the iPhone, especially at a lower price point. But the bottom line is they still don't really have the design chops and the attention to detail. Their "innovations" on the S4 are pretty gimmicky. They haven't built up a large economic moat around their ecosystem. I feel Apple can pretty easily leapfrog them by introducing a device that is a reasonable leap forward from where we are now. The iPhone 4, 4S, and 5 are all in the same design family. I expect the iPhone 6 will be pretty different than any phone we've ever seen before. I think Apple might even surprise us with an iPhone 6 this year. Who knows though.
- Daishiman 13y ago
  Some of us care more about being able to use our phone for whatever we damn please rather than depend on a highly restrictive app store that censors a ton of useful software. People have different priorities. This is a tired meme; if you're that bothered by lag you're not using Android, if you're using Android it's not going to be such a huge change in the grand scheme of things. Can we have another argument for Apple superiority please?
  - gfodor 13y ago
    It's not about Apple per se because I am pretty sure Windows Phone does not have these problems either. It's an attention to detail thing. That they shipped the S4 with obvious animation lag shows they may just be blind to it or notice it and make a calculation that the tradeoff is not worth it to fix it. In other words, they're willing to ship something that is kind of shitty because of a cost-benefit analysis, or they can't even see that it's shitty. This to me is not the strategy of a company who is seeking a leadership position in terms of innovation, and in this market, a leadership position is pretty important since things change so quickly. Say what you will about Apple, but it's pretty clear they pride themselves on shipping things they are proud to put their name on because they only ship it when they feel the details are right. The App Store review process is in this spirit, they don't want shitty apps screwing up the experience on their phones. This is why the Maps debacle was a catalyst for their stock plummeting, it showed to many this may have been lost with the loss of Jobs. I think the final build of iOS 7 is going to speak volumes about how Apple's culture has changed or not. If they get the details right, they've still got it. If it's laggy, has minor usability issues everywhere, etc, then that is the type of thing that I think spells Apple's doom. edit: To summarize, I don't think 'animation lag' is in the same class of tradeoffs as 'open vs closed app stores.' Animation lag is a bug, and makes your work look objectively shitty, full stop. Animation lag 'matters' to everyone, even if they don't overtly notice it, because to everyone, animation lag breaks the illusion of fluid motion and interactivity on a subconscious level. It's sloppiness, plain and simple.
w33ble 13y ago
To be fair, the profit Samsung is reporting isn't limited to their Android phones. From the article: > Samsung's estimated $5.2bn haul from both its basic models and smartphones in the same period. I don't thing profits on just their smartphones beat Apple's iPhone profits, even though their global marketshare is over twice that of Apple's, according to the same article. It may happen, and probably will, given time, it just hasn't happened yet.
- w33ble 13y ago
  AppleInsider just posted a pretty nice breakdown of the pricing. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de... Basically, Samsung's number includes its phone, tablet and computer sales (including Chromebook sales, which IIRC have been really high), while Apple's number only the estimated iPhone sales.
MaysonL 13y ago
Note that the quarter where the S3 sold more than the 4s was the launch quarter for the 5: the iPhone (total) outsold the S3 by a moderate amount that quarter. And note that the quarter after that, the 5 and 4s were the two top-selling global smart phone models.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
codex 13y ago
Apple still leads in profit per phone and in gross profit margin. Furthermore, Samsung overtook Apple in its weakest quarter (not for the whole year), as people hold off iPhone purchases as they await the unveiling of the newest iPhone model. Finally, Samsung's number includes sales from non-smartphones. The story is mostly still the same: Samsung is making progress in attacking the high end, but most of their profits come from selling cheaper, lower quality phones to a wider audience.
coldtea 13y ago
>A few years back when the iPhone was selling more than all Android devices combined, people were quick to say that Android would never be able to compete since it's 'too geeky'. Really? Because all the BS press I've seen at the time (and ever since) always mentioned how "iPhone is doomed" because of Android. >Awhile later when Android took off a bit and all of the Android devices together sold more than the iPhone, people were quick to say how it's just one supplier (Apple) vs many suppliers producing Android phones. Besides the fact that who the fuck compares the entire mobile industry with a single company, the reason they outsold the iPhone is because they make models that cover a wider price range. iPhone just is, take it or leave it -- at best you can get the last model on discount (and even that keeps it price well). Android, they make models that a poor piss guy in Southern Banzania can buy too. >Bit later, Samsung is doing really well with their Galaxy range, and suddenly Samsung alone is selling more devices than Apple. People then say how Samsung sells tons of different devices while Apple only sells one. Seems like you mixed a bunch of thing nobody said (or merely some fanboys on some sites) and some legitimate concerns that still hold, and you mix and matched them to create a timeline. The actual story was always "OMG, iPhone is Doomed" or "Android is Winning" >The real issue is that Google/Android are out competing Apple in features, price and 'freedom'. Apple never competed in "features" and "price. Heck, they don't do that even on their PC line, and that has been going for like 30 years. They compete in high end, build quality, overal coherence, ecosystem and design.
- zimbatm 13y ago
  No need to get all worked up. OP is right that Apple fanbois always come up with excuses. By the way thanks for giving us the next goal post: build quality and overall coherence ;-)
  - cremnob 13y ago
    They're still working on the profit goal post ;-) http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de...
  - coldtea 13y ago
bdcravens 13y ago
people were quick to say that Android would never be able to compete since it's 'too geeky'. Which is why Samsung has layered their own UI and apps atop the core Android experience, and the market has rewarded them for making it more consumer friendly.
deepGem 13y ago
The real issue is that Google/Android are out competing Apple in features, price and 'freedom' - Samsung won't even let me uninstall and get rid of their proprietary crap. So no, there's no freedom in the Samsung world, unless you root the device.
- bookwormAT 13y ago
  yes there is. You can install any application without approval from Samsung or Google. That is a freedom in the Samsung world that you don't need to root your device for.
dyinglobster 13y ago
Samsung has not dethroned Apple in mobile profits. ....before the site realized that it was comparing Apple's after tax net income to Samsung Electronics pre-tax operational income. Samsung DID NOT provide net profit numbers. :)
pinaceae 13y ago
actually it's bullshit numbers, but who cares. bad analytical firm, gobbled up by bad journos. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de... other sites have already detracted, but HN will keep it up and save this circlejerk for posterity. good job.
timcederman 13y ago
How do you reconcile your viewpoint on goalposts now it's clear that the analysts were comparing apples to oranges? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118794

by RyanZAG 13y ago

pavs 13y ago

I find this "us versus them" and corporate worshipping a bit troubling. I use an Android phone (S3) now, I used to use iPhone, but I didn't really like the direction they were heading. So I chose the phone OS ecosystem I liked. One thing that annoys me more than Apple fanboys are Android fanboys.

usethis 13y ago
Yes, who cares, the user decides for an eco system and that's it. I am happy with Apple, they serve my every perceived need and as long as they are not too expensive or too far behind, I am not going to change. This is mostly preaching to the choir anyway.
PommeDeTerre 13y ago
Merely pointing out the hypocritical arguments of some Apple supporters does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". Merely pointing out the functional differences between iOS and Android does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". Merely pointing out the philosophical differences between iOS and Android does not automatically make somebody an "Android fanboy". To generalize this, merely pointing out things that can be perceived as negative about one product/company/person does not mean that the person expressing such ideas automatically supports some competing product/company/person.
- pavs 13y ago
  Not sure where you are heading with this. To make my point more clear, why on earth would you or anyone care about how much money the manufacturer of a product you use (or has similar OS to the product you use) make or by how much money its beating its main competitor in this quarter? I can think of three possibilities: - You are a market analyst. - You are an investor. - You are fanboy. I am going to go with fanboy.
  - cageface 13y ago
    Or: - You are a developer that has to make some bets about where to focus resources and learning time.
    - pavs 13y ago
      If you are on mobile business, its currently a duopoly, if you are not investing on both top 2 platform you are doing it wrong. I would also probably categorize this in to "investor", in the sense that your business is investing on that platform, so profit margin of that platform in a relevant information for you.
    - mwfunk 13y ago
      The original poster wasn't coming from that perspective either. He was basically Grubering for Android, which is about as interesting and insightful as when Gruber does it for iOS.
danieldk 13y ago
Even more, it's surprising to see this mentality on Hacker News. You'd think that we love technology and try whatever is best at this moment. I have never really used Windows, but I like Microsoft's work on Metro and Windows Phone, so I also have a Lumia (besides being an Apple user in general).
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  Same for me. I spend most of my time on Linux these days but I have a Lumia (720). Great phone. Just works and can get through 3 days without a charge! The only thing that sucks is it doesn't have a decent ssh client but that is remedied by the fact it works as a tether and I can use my laptop with it. I don't like running root on a touch screen device either due to the massive danger mistyping as root and shooting something.
  - networked 13y ago
    Today was my first real experience with Windows Phone (I set up a -- yes -- Samsung device running Windows Phone 7.8, the latest update to the previous release, for a relative). My first impression of it was that the UI and the core apps felt responsive and well-designed. Sadly, I ran into a error whereby Outlook.com refused to import an Outlook 2007 CSV file with contacts to sync with the phone. I soon figured out the reason behind the error was Office 2007's UI language being set to something other than English, which caused Outlook to generate a header for the CSV file with the field names listed in that locale, which in turn Outlook.com refused to parse. Disappointing, particularly in light of otherwise decent localization. Other than that, though, actually using it has more or less convinced me to consider a Windows Phone device as my next phone. AFAIK, WP8 doesn't rely on Zune the way WP7 does. Does it play well with Linux in practice? By the way, how do the privacy policies of Windows Phone and Microsoft Live services compare to those of matching products from Apple and Google? I have tried and failed to find a systematic comparison (i.e., a table) of how much data about the user the three mobile OSes and their vendors' apps collect and what they say about redistribution the data to third parties. I'd rather not try to perform this analysis myself (IANAL). Perhaps there's a market opportunity here.

dombili 13y ago

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. The things you've mentioned are completely valid points and they still exist. I'm not trying to overlook Samsung's success, but they _do_ sell tons of different devices while Apple only sell one (but 3 different versions), and profits _do_ matter. I'm not sure about this but I believe Apple still beats Galaxy S4 in terms of profits and iPhone 5 released last year in September. I also don't get this type of discussions. Technology evolves everyday. Apple used to beat other companies in terms of profits and market share, now Samsung is at the helm. Let's see what Apple can do this fall. As long as us, the consumer wins, I don't care who makes more money.

statictype 13y ago
Tangential to the discussion but: Profits matter to the company. Not to you or me (unless you or I work for the company or have stock in them). On the other hand, market share does affect consumers. The more popular your particular device is, the better it is for you (in terms of app availability, web compatibility, tech support etc...).
- dombili 13y ago
  >Profits matter to the company. Not to you or me. Absolutely. I wasn't trying to say that profits matter to consumers (Indirectly it may effect them though, because more profits means more freedom for a company to try new things without being too worried about wasting money). >On the other hand, market share does affect consumers. The more popular your particular device is, the better it is for you. I agree, but I don't think it matters all that much. Just look at the current situation. Can you honestly say that Windows' ecosystem is better than Mac's, despite the indisputable market share of Windows? Same goes with Android vs iOS (although they're pretty close). An argument could be made that Microsoft only makes the software while Apple does both software and hardware, but Mac support, ecosystem, app quality is miles ahead of Windows, in my opinion.
  - cageface 13y ago
    This depends entirely on which particular app domain matters to you. If business software or games are your priority then Windows is a no-brainer first choice. For a lot of other things it's a tossup and for some domains like music creation software the Mac is arguably better.

btipling 13y ago

You see this too across device types. Some commentators trivialize "marketshare" when talking about iPhone, but when talking about iPads in separate posts, it's all about marketshare. Mental gymnastics. The remaining goal posts by the way are where apps get built first and general app quality. The time that developers move to Android after first making their app on iOS is probably shrinking. The disparity of where apps get made first is also probably shrinking. Another point about why is Android doing so well: Apple seriously needs to get better at services. They are amazing at hardware, they are great at software that runs on devices, but they have bombed again and again on software that runs as a service in the cloud. This severely limits them. Maps, mobile me, icloud syncing, they have trouble keeping their developer portal up, etc. I believe this is a problem with Apple's culture and what they value. Server software isn't pretty, and it's iterative. That is you bring up something that works, then make it better. Apple's culture is to wow with the first try, but they've been disappointing when it comes to software as a service.

wisty 13y ago
Apple doesn't have to get better at service. They just have to make sure that they don't lock other services out (especially when the other vendor is much better than Apple). Google doesn't care if iOS or Android wins - they just want lots of Google services on as many phones as possible. It's in Apple's interests to avoid sinking their platform simply to give their own in-house offerings a leg-up. I think that's one of the reasons Scott Forstall was forced out. It seems he was backing a lot of Apple's Data / AI / Cloud products, and may have wanted to keep Google out of iOS, in order to give his products an advantage. But Apple doesn't make money on Maps, it makes money selling the phone (and OS, and App store), and it's silly to hamstring your platform simply to give a few second-rate Apps an unfair advantage. (And they were second-rate - anyone who competes with Google's killer apps is taking a crazy risk).
- bsaul 13y ago
  I disagree. The whole philosophy Apple bring to the mobile computer world is vertical integration : you own every layer so that the experience can be perfect. And every people that ever designed any system knows that : if your system needs to integrate with only one other, life is great. Integrate with two,and you're in trouble. Now, as i already said here, the problem isn't that they need to get better at service, the problem is that they need not to be absolute crap, and get some culture. If Apple Maps was only just as good as bing map, they could have made it. If iCloud was only just as good as dropbox, they could have made it. If "Ping" was only as good as... just any social network you could think of, then it could have leverage the other great apple system. The problem is that their server side is so bad, it can't even leverage other Apple strengths.

velodrome 13y ago

Apple is still better positioned. They have better control and less fragmentation. Samsung does not control the complete stack. They have to rely on Google for the OS. They are forced to comply with Google's licensing agreement. Samsung is really trying hard to find an alternative by pursuing Bada, Tizen, etc. Samsung was really clever at creating TouchWiz - an overlay on top of the traditional Android. Users will get use to this interface and Samsung can eventually swap out the stack underneath it (already attempted with Tizen). Google is a fool for letting Samsung get too powerful - to the point where Samsung can dictate terms and at the expense of Google's other partners. It's clear Google knows Samsung is a problem because most of the Nexus devices are now made by LG, Asus. However, LG also owns WebOS. Android is proven and the hardware has matured, Google should start producing it's own hardware as its partners are looking at alternatives.

myko 13y ago
> Users will get use to this interface and Samsung can eventually swap out the stack underneath it (already attempted with Tizen). This only works if Samsung allows the user to download/install their purchased apps from earlier phones though. As well as Google Music and other services the user might expect. > Google is a fool for letting Samsung get too powerful - to the point where Samsung can dictate terms and at the expense of Google's other partners. When did this happen? Samsung is a huge partner of Android. They make 1 of 3 current Nexus devices and made the previous 2 Nexus phones (more than any other manufacturer). This is a completely unrelated thing. Also, Samsung is one of the companies with a Google Experience version of their latest flagship (the S4) available on Google Play. > Google should start producing it's own hardware as its partners are looking at alternatives. Does Motorola count? The first few Google developed Motorola phones were just announced.
- velodrome 13y ago
  > This only works if Samsung allows the user to download/install their purchased apps from earlier phones though. As well as Google Music and other services the user might expect. This is true. This is one of the many hurdles they need to overcome to switch to another platform. > When did this happen? Samsung is a huge partner of Android. They make 1 of 3 current Nexus devices and made the previous 2 Nexus phones (more than any other manufacturer). This is a completely unrelated thing. It's speculation really. The previous Nexus products were all made by Samsung. Why did Google suddenly start switching to other manufacturers? If Samsung made the best devices, why change? If your company commands the most profits and market share of a platform - do you not want to use this as leverage to some degree? Better bargaining power gives you a competitive advantage over other players (LG, Asus, HTC, etc). > Does Motorola count? The first few Google developed Motorola phones were just announced. It sure does. They need to speed things along though.

rdtsc 13y ago

A very important point to consider is that Apple is a lifestyle product. (I hate that word "lifestyle" but it somehow matches well here). There are people who have tattooed the Apple logo on their body. There aren't that many people who have tattooed Samsung's logo if I had to guess. Apple cultivated and created their brand (rebuilt it really, as it did go through a rough patch in the past were only true believers were left following it). But now it is the brand people worship. That is very important to consider when these articles are written. Most likely the writer is a tech savvy enough to personally either be in the Apple cult or not. And people will most often than not defend their own camp against the other camp. Those from the Apple camp who invested thousands of dollars in products will consciously and unconsciously defend it regardless of whatever the market is doing (as we've seen they've managed to twist and reinterpret the news in every possible to still make Apple come on top). Another point to consider is this. Apple is a luxury product affordable by many. It is luxury because there is not other luxury phone besides it. The riches and most opulent person out there, will probably still have an iPhone or iPad. They'd buy a diamond studded golden case dipped in platinum for it but it will still be an iPhone. And this is the same device that someone who is middle class or below can still obtain. Think about it. What other luxury products are the same. Cars? Nope. Watches? Nope. Clothes? Not really. So that serves to reinforce the cult following. Look I can have the same phone as <myfavoriteactor> or other <famousperson>. That is pretty powerful.

vacri 13y ago
You make good points, but it's worth mentioning that Samsung's logo is the word 'SAMSUNG' - it doesn't lend itself well to tattoos at all, even if you were particularly passionate about them. Windows has a 'picture' logo and occupies the same rung as samsung in the 'quality vs Apple' pie fight, but there are folks out there with winlogo tattoos. I've seen photos of a few different ones, but my guess would be that there's fewer than there would be for Apple.
philwelch 13y ago
There are some people with the Samsung logo tattooed on their bodies, but not so much because of Samsung itself: http://www.insideworldsoccer.com/2013/07/didier-drogba-hugs-chelsea-fan-tattoo-didier-drogba.html http://www.insideworldsoccer.com/2013/07/didier-drogba-hugs-...

gfodor 13y ago

I was curious if now, 5 years later, if the latest Android phone still is unable to scroll smoothly and animate smoothly between apps, at 60 fps, with no lag, and respond instantaneously to touches. These are key things the iPhone has done since it's first release since it's crucial to maintaining the illusion you are manipulating things on the screen. Every time I try the latest Android device in the store I just laugh in disbelief because inevitably it is laggy and slightly unresponsive, and feels like I am interacting with a computer. Googling around, it looks like the S4 still has animation lag in all sorts of places. Amazing. I mean, hats off to Samsung for getting as far as they have. They've basically exploited Google's engineering resources brilliantly and have been ruthlessly competitive. Their design skills seemed to have gotten slightly better, and bigger screens and every-feature-but-the-kitchen-sink moves phones when they are compared to the iPhone, especially at a lower price point. But the bottom line is they still don't really have the design chops and the attention to detail. Their "innovations" on the S4 are pretty gimmicky. They haven't built up a large economic moat around their ecosystem. I feel Apple can pretty easily leapfrog them by introducing a device that is a reasonable leap forward from where we are now. The iPhone 4, 4S, and 5 are all in the same design family. I expect the iPhone 6 will be pretty different than any phone we've ever seen before. I think Apple might even surprise us with an iPhone 6 this year. Who knows though.

Daishiman 13y ago
Some of us care more about being able to use our phone for whatever we damn please rather than depend on a highly restrictive app store that censors a ton of useful software. People have different priorities. This is a tired meme; if you're that bothered by lag you're not using Android, if you're using Android it's not going to be such a huge change in the grand scheme of things. Can we have another argument for Apple superiority please?
- gfodor 13y ago
  It's not about Apple per se because I am pretty sure Windows Phone does not have these problems either. It's an attention to detail thing. That they shipped the S4 with obvious animation lag shows they may just be blind to it or notice it and make a calculation that the tradeoff is not worth it to fix it. In other words, they're willing to ship something that is kind of shitty because of a cost-benefit analysis, or they can't even see that it's shitty. This to me is not the strategy of a company who is seeking a leadership position in terms of innovation, and in this market, a leadership position is pretty important since things change so quickly. Say what you will about Apple, but it's pretty clear they pride themselves on shipping things they are proud to put their name on because they only ship it when they feel the details are right. The App Store review process is in this spirit, they don't want shitty apps screwing up the experience on their phones. This is why the Maps debacle was a catalyst for their stock plummeting, it showed to many this may have been lost with the loss of Jobs. I think the final build of iOS 7 is going to speak volumes about how Apple's culture has changed or not. If they get the details right, they've still got it. If it's laggy, has minor usability issues everywhere, etc, then that is the type of thing that I think spells Apple's doom. edit: To summarize, I don't think 'animation lag' is in the same class of tradeoffs as 'open vs closed app stores.' Animation lag is a bug, and makes your work look objectively shitty, full stop. Animation lag 'matters' to everyone, even if they don't overtly notice it, because to everyone, animation lag breaks the illusion of fluid motion and interactivity on a subconscious level. It's sloppiness, plain and simple.

w33ble 13y ago

To be fair, the profit Samsung is reporting isn't limited to their Android phones. From the article: > Samsung's estimated $5.2bn haul from both its basic models and smartphones in the same period. I don't thing profits on just their smartphones beat Apple's iPhone profits, even though their global marketshare is over twice that of Apple's, according to the same article. It may happen, and probably will, given time, it just hasn't happened yet.

w33ble 13y ago
AppleInsider just posted a pretty nice breakdown of the pricing. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de... Basically, Samsung's number includes its phone, tablet and computer sales (including Chromebook sales, which IIRC have been really high), while Apple's number only the estimated iPhone sales.

MaysonL 13y ago

Note that the quarter where the S3 sold more than the 4s was the launch quarter for the 5: the iPhone (total) outsold the S3 by a moderate amount that quarter. And note that the quarter after that, the 5 and 4s were the two top-selling global smart phone models.

deleted 13y ago

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codex 13y ago

Apple still leads in profit per phone and in gross profit margin. Furthermore, Samsung overtook Apple in its weakest quarter (not for the whole year), as people hold off iPhone purchases as they await the unveiling of the newest iPhone model. Finally, Samsung's number includes sales from non-smartphones. The story is mostly still the same: Samsung is making progress in attacking the high end, but most of their profits come from selling cheaper, lower quality phones to a wider audience.

coldtea 13y ago

>A few years back when the iPhone was selling more than all Android devices combined, people were quick to say that Android would never be able to compete since it's 'too geeky'. Really? Because all the BS press I've seen at the time (and ever since) always mentioned how "iPhone is doomed" because of Android. >Awhile later when Android took off a bit and all of the Android devices together sold more than the iPhone, people were quick to say how it's just one supplier (Apple) vs many suppliers producing Android phones. Besides the fact that who the fuck compares the entire mobile industry with a single company, the reason they outsold the iPhone is because they make models that cover a wider price range. iPhone just is, take it or leave it -- at best you can get the last model on discount (and even that keeps it price well). Android, they make models that a poor piss guy in Southern Banzania can buy too. >Bit later, Samsung is doing really well with their Galaxy range, and suddenly Samsung alone is selling more devices than Apple. People then say how Samsung sells tons of different devices while Apple only sells one. Seems like you mixed a bunch of thing nobody said (or merely some fanboys on some sites) and some legitimate concerns that still hold, and you mix and matched them to create a timeline. The actual story was always "OMG, iPhone is Doomed" or "Android is Winning" >The real issue is that Google/Android are out competing Apple in features, price and 'freedom'. Apple never competed in "features" and "price. Heck, they don't do that even on their PC line, and that has been going for like 30 years. They compete in high end, build quality, overal coherence, ecosystem and design.

zimbatm 13y ago
No need to get all worked up. OP is right that Apple fanbois always come up with excuses. By the way thanks for giving us the next goal post: build quality and overall coherence ;-)
- cremnob 13y ago
  They're still working on the profit goal post ;-) http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de...
- coldtea 13y ago

bdcravens 13y ago

people were quick to say that Android would never be able to compete since it's 'too geeky'. Which is why Samsung has layered their own UI and apps atop the core Android experience, and the market has rewarded them for making it more consumer friendly.

deepGem 13y ago

The real issue is that Google/Android are out competing Apple in features, price and 'freedom' - Samsung won't even let me uninstall and get rid of their proprietary crap. So no, there's no freedom in the Samsung world, unless you root the device.

bookwormAT 13y ago
yes there is. You can install any application without approval from Samsung or Google. That is a freedom in the Samsung world that you don't need to root your device for.

dyinglobster 13y ago

Samsung has not dethroned Apple in mobile profits. ....before the site realized that it was comparing Apple's after tax net income to Samsung Electronics pre-tax operational income. Samsung DID NOT provide net profit numbers. :)

pinaceae 13y ago

actually it's bullshit numbers, but who cares. bad analytical firm, gobbled up by bad journos. http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-de... other sites have already detracted, but HN will keep it up and save this circlejerk for posterity. good job.

timcederman 13y ago

How do you reconcile your viewpoint on goalposts now it's clear that the analysts were comparing apples to oranges? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6118794