21 ms·

Passive Income Hacker vs Startup Guy

• maayank 13y ago
  "But what about dev, marketing, customer service etc?" "I've automated 95% of the non-dev. The other 5% of non-dev I deal with in about 20 minutes a day. Every few weeks I'll have a big dev day." Any books/resources with a lot of real world case studies? I'd be very interested to hear many different accounts of such businesses. Here and there you see it on HN, but is there one that has many together?
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
• potatolicious 13y ago
  This post makes me happy :) > "Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology." Don't worry, PIH, Startup Guy isn't either. There are really two main camps of startup founders I've met. There's the type that really wants to bring a vision to life - they have a pseudo-religious fervor about something, whether it's gaming, transportation, lodging, or something else. They really want to change the world, and it's not just talk. Then there are ones that are really in it to make money. They want to create a company, exit, and go do what they really want to do. Sit on a beach, roll up to the club in a Rolls Royce, travel, whatever. It's a sliding scale. Every founder has some balance of being genuinely passionate about what their company does, and the desire to just cash out. All said and done though, the founders I meet tend to lean much further towards the latter than the former.
  • the_cat_kittles 13y ago
    This has been my experience as well. The people that actually care about building and designing things tend to be the builders and designers. Maybe thats why most non-technical / non-design founders I have known seem to really just be about the money.
    • potatolicious 13y ago
      Ehh, I wouldn't give the builders and designers a free pass either. I've met just as many engineers and designers who are in it for the money. All in all the people who genuinely want to change the world and are willing to put their money where their mouth is, are very few and far between. Regardless of their profession or background. The dissonance is that startups, particularly VC-funded high-growth startups make a lot of noise about disruption, changing the world, and the such. But somehow, with few exceptions, when push comes to shove they will take the exit over their vision.
      • rhizome 13y ago
        The disruption is a reputation, a stereotype, that does not really hold sway the more we see developers and business people enter the industry from more traditional educational institutions.
      • deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    • antitrust 13y ago
      > Maybe thats why most non-technical / non-design founders I have known seem to really just be about the money. Not to pick nits, but I think the dichotomy you're setting up here is silly. Business administration or leadership are skills as technical as coding or design, and if done correctly, can be more so. With that in mind, there's an art to making money. Just churning over cash in the short term doesn't have that. Building a brand that can last for a century takes a genius.
      • the_cat_kittles 13y ago
        Good point. Maybe a more important distinction is how someone evaluates the product. Do they think its a success just because it made a ton of money? Or do they have some more intrinsic measures of what makes it good, and look at the impact it actually has on people? With that in mind, I can see how a gifted business administrator can do their job (maybe make the company money) while being motivated by the more intrinsic stuff about the company. I guess I just try to stay away from people who's ONLY yardstick is how well it sells.
  • kemist 13y ago
    My favorite founders are the ones that are in it for the journey. You have to look hard to find them but they're out there.
    • melling 13y ago
      Well, since this in HN, maybe we could throw out a few. In particular, which ones qualify in NYC?
      • potatolicious 13y ago
        I work at one, we're in DUMBO. My email is in my profile, and yes we're hiring ;)
  • veesahni 13y ago
    I don't fit in those buckets. I have no external funding and no desire for it. I'm not in it to change the world or for a big exit - I'm in it for freedom. Freedom to steer the business in the direction I feel is right. Freedom to work on what I choose is important. The one advantage of this approach is that my primary focus is the needs of my customers, rather than the needs of my investors.
    • jmduke 13y ago
      If you learn a lot of corporate strategy, you'll read about the importance of aligning the goals of your customers with the goals of your investors (and then you'll suddenly read that phrase in every earnings and annual report ever.) The idea being: there's an inherent paradox in trying to serve two mistresses, one who wants profit and the other who wants value. Something that isn't touched on too much is that it's sometimes better to only have one mistress. When your customers are your investors, then your priorities and goals suddenly become a lot clearer.
      • liljimmytables 13y ago
        sorry to be the guy that gets picky about words, but i think you mean contention rather than paradox
        • jmduke 13y ago
          Whoops -- yep, you're right! (In my defense, it's very early and I'm very bad at words.)
          • yaddayadda 13y ago
            I actually think "paradox" is a perfectly acceptable word in the context used. The common usage meaning - contradiction - is particularly apropos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox edit: fixed nasty typo
            • 13y ago
  • zacharycohn 13y ago
    Paraphrased via The Founders Dilemmas: There are two types of founders - money oriented and control oriented. A good HBR article about the topic: http://hbr.org/2008/02/the-founders-dilemma/ar/1 http://hbr.org/2008/02/the-founders-dilemma/ar/1
    • jastreich 13y ago
      Here's the problem with that... False assumptions being made in the article include: - You need venture capital to be successful - The goal should be public trading Cargil, Koch Industries, Mars, LAMPO Group and many others remain privately held. - You can measure the potential for financial success of a company in some real tangible way, and tell how close you are too that potential. I also don't think that money and control are the only two orientations to have here. Or perhaps there are subgroups to money and control orientation. For instance, Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers) wanted to pass on his show to another; but, couldn't find someone who met his high standards of morals, communication skills, and permeability. After his death, the Fred Rogers Company (formerly Family Communications) did launch a new show, and it was still important enough to get Fred's widows blessing before it aired. Is that control oriented, or is quality oriented? Or take a look at company founding CEOs that have missions or beliefs that forbid them from taking shortcuts to maximize profits, like an unwillingness to outsource to parts of the world that treat labor like cattle. Is that simple "control orientation? I am control oriented, and for that reason won't take on debt, venture capital, investors or partners. I am clear, it is mine, I have a vision for it, and you can't have it or pervert it. Profit isn't as important as delivering a good product and actually touching lives.
• pmelendez 13y ago
  "He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy" This sentence made me uneasy. I am not good identifying sarcasm so it might be that but... How one would jump into that conclusion without knowing any detail? On the other hand, lazy is different from being not ambitious. I had several friends like that (not making 5 figures per month though)and I find that is a very legitimate way of live.
  • Bootvis 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm.
  • WayneDB 13y ago
    My wife can jump to conclusions without any details. She does it all the time :)
    • culshaw 13y ago
      Wait, is my wife your wife?
      • MoreConsiderate 13y ago
        Totally possible. These days, with the right forms of identification and a good enough cover story, anybody can be anyone anywhere to almost anybody.
      • sp332 13y ago
        If you were any good at jumping to conclusions, you wouldn't have to ask!
        • culshaw 13y ago
          What did you call my mother?
  • ZoF 13y ago
    Definitely sarcasm :)
• applecore 13y ago
  Does Passive Income Hacker actually exist, or is this conversation a fantasy? How many people are there making five figures ($10,000+) in profit a month with their SaaS product? Working by themselves, for only "20 minutes a day", with a full day of product development "every few weeks"?
  • mcantrell 13y ago
    Can't say for myself, but I would bet such a person exists. I know a few that could be candidates, but I don't know how much they're making monthly. Add on that he's probably exaggerating about the limited time required. If you really do target a niche, you can make money, and it's easier than targeting everyone.
  • svmegatron 13y ago
    It's possible that they are working for only "20 minutes a day" in the same way that the Startup Guy is working "100+ hours a week." That is to say, the quoted number happens occasionally, but it feels like all the time.
  • Yhippa 13y ago
    > Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy. Not to say this is sustainable but if there's a way to make money via arbitrage that nobody else has picked up on yet it can be very profitable. And potentially low-effort too.
  • ambiate 13y ago
    This number is really easy to pull of if you know how to sell yourself and be social/on the offensive. $150/month product that saves businesses $4,000/mo (one less programmer). Hard part: Find 70 clients. Working in industry, we demo products all the time. We pay outrageous amounts of money for an online time tracker which is basically an online spreadsheet. We have considered obtaining systems for managing accounting, supply, etc. Focusing on our core business, policies, we never get tied up in 2-3 month/year adventures in uncomfortable territory. There is no innovation, just maintenance. We use a 20 year old 4GL language assisted by native Python/C. I could crank out Android apps in niches, write web content and advertise, build a few cloud based web products (CAN IT EXPORT TO EXCEL!?!?!!!111), and easily live off of 15-20k a month with huge fluctuations (both directions). I choose the simple life of industry. Not to mention, it is so hard to motivate yourself to go from start to end on a product. Most of that energy was used in my late teens. Right now, I could be cranking out that turn based strategy Google Glass native app, because native apps with delays in turn taking are going to be the key to Glass (it gets hot!). Instead, I'll just build another fixed width extract with this day. It will run in 1/16th of the time of the original. People will not notice or care until it breaks again. Ad absurdum. I suppose its worth mentioning, I know a few who pull in 4-6k a month solely on advertising/affiliates. Completely passive, they have months worth of posts automated to go out every 2nd or 4th week. I've pulled off 1-2k using the same method, but I always had a hard time finding microniches that were available for me to dominate. Writing about en pointe ballet, dremels, silver polishing, simms fishing gear etc. is not my ideal goal. It did make money though.
• lukeholder 13y ago
  Can anyone identify a few example passive income apps that a single developer has managed to support? I know of bingo card creator, but what are some others?
  • davidwparker 13y ago
    Here's a few discussions that I've bookmarked and go back to, time-to-time for inspiration: Small Product, Single Founder Success Stories https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3029771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3029771 How much recurring income do you generate, and from what? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2567487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2567487 Anyone making a living from just 1 app? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1772199 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1772199 Inspirational money making web apps made by hackers https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1764682
    • glanch 13y ago
      Just read the first link there about Jerry Shen, a 1-man startup in the fantasy sports industry. Seems like he was (is?) living the dream, based on his post on that thread, but I just googled him and was surprised to see he took a job at Yahoo Sports this month. I wonder what they offered him to make it worth his while to give up so much freedom.
    • clarky07 13y ago
      @glanch you appear to be hellbanned, not sure why. I don't know what the offer was, but it wasn't just "job offer," they bought his business and are integrating it into their fantasy sports apps.
    • kpennell 13y ago
      Thanks a lot for posting these, David.
    • clarky07 13y ago
      I posted a variant on this today[1], to get some more up to date responses as those all seem to be quite old. all very good reading though https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6109924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6109924
• jackschultz 13y ago
  So what if startup guy disagrees with the choices of PIH? This is another example of conflicting ideologies, and luckily, no one can do something about it. Imagine if there was a politician who didn't like the approach PIH was taking and worked to ban it because he didn't like it. This seems very farfetched, but there are examples of this happening. The ones that come to mind are the banning of sharing recourses, like AirBnB or any ride share program.
  • vladmk 13y ago
    aka bitcoin miners vs the government :D
• galactus 13y ago
  What do we win by promoting these caricatures?
• makmanalp 13y ago
  I think it's just such a truism these days that every company has to (often recklessly) aim for massive growth and fund that by selling off the company, that there's just a lot of cognitive dissonance when you present that that's not the only way companies can work. It's not necessarily all derision, it's just the mind trying to reconcile new information with old.
• arbuge 13y ago
  "He realizes that Passive Income Hacker (PIH) is not a hustler, he's not funded or seeking funding, he doesn't go to the networking events and hasn't been through an accelerator." This article rubs me wrong. This paragraph really rubs me wrong. If you're good at hustling for customers, you're a hustler where it matters. Funding (non-customer funding i.e), networking events and accelerators are secondary - lots of America's biggest businesses have been built without them. The "passive income guy" described in the article reminds me of the Plenty of Fish founder by the way. Most "startup guys" would probably kill to be in his position...
  • clarky07 13y ago
    I think you're missing the sarcasm here... This is written from PIH point of view making fun of what startup guy thinks of him. PIH agrees with you that funding and accelerators aren't needed to be successful.
    • arbuge 13y ago
      So maybe I did. Better go back for some more coffee I guess.
      • vladmk 13y ago
        no its not just you, I wrote a similar comment. This guy who calls himself a hacker actually fits the bill, most of the time criminals exhibit schizophrenic characteristics and to no surprise he wrote a self serving article making himself look good...now I guess I need to get back to my startup before I turn into startup guy walking around coffee shops seeking funding.
• nathas 13y ago
  How does one become a passive income hacker?
  • Iftheshoefits 13y ago
    Well, the simplest way is to toss a website up with some affiliate links. Eventually you'll get a few hits, at least. Technically, then, you will have earned some passive income, albeit not a lot. To make it big, though, relies mainly on luck and the skill to recognize when luck has provided an opportunity. For example, a lot of these people with passive "affiliate" income are essentially very lucky that they recognized the niche and were in a position to be able to exploit it better than (or at least as good as) anybody else who tried--it's not common, or even 'infrequent'; I'd say it's rare at best. Or you can do what "everybody" else does: have a job (freelance or otherwise) and, eventually, exploit your connections and network into a product (like PIH's SaaS product) that produces passive income. This, of course, takes years unless as in the above you are very lucky. Even then you have to have some good fortune to maintain steady employment, not be hit with any of a number of life's possible mishaps, etc. Personally, I think passive income from, e.g. dividend paying equities in the Gambler's Emporium known as the stock market are more likely to provide regular passive income than hoping that working toward some hit affiliate stream or niche software market will payoff without luck.
    • snoonan 13y ago
      Passive income != affiliate income. That may come from the internet marketing guru "buy my course" crew being very vocal about selling a certain dream. Some succeed, but there's more money reliable money in building a real business.
      • Iftheshoefits 13y ago
        Of course the set of things that generate passive income is not restricted to the affiliate element only. It includes things like writing an eBook, developing an App for desktop/mobile/web, etc., that one doesn't intend to maintain, or the ratio of time spent in maintenance or working on the product(s) to free time is very small (which is, of course, subjective). Dividend paying stocks or investments in other funds are truly passive--they require zero effort that could be called "work". As soon as one begins to maintain or attempt to expand these things, however, it's no longer really passive. In fact, "building a business" necessarily implies direct action.
• lovesgreen 13y ago
  Sounds like jealousy. If you can automate the way you get money, you have 23 hrs and 40 minutes a day to do something without any profit motive for true good. Startups, business, and making money don't have to be a religion. Bill Gates will do more good with the money he made than he did by creating software.
  • peterjancelis 13y ago
    I don't agree with that. The value of bringing the personal computer to the masses is way higher than saving the lives of the bottom 1 billion.
    • pestaa 13y ago
      1 billion people would certainly disagree.
      • antitrust 13y ago
        I think what he's saying is that all seven billion of us benefited from the PC revolution, where the bottom one billion may benefit (or may not) from Gates' efforts. It's an interesting ethical question. As with most questions, I don't know the answer to it.
        • peterjancelis 13y ago
          Exactly. Also indirect effects, like how much more productive are cancer researchers thanks to computers. Very hard to underestimate the importance of computers.
• icedchai 13y ago
  So, PIH has a profitable business. "Startup guy" is a bullshit artist.
• ilamont 13y ago
  No, the business is bootstrapped. Bootstrapping is not a crime. So you just work out of coffee shops and stuff? Dumping the office or co-working space saves at least a few thousand dollars per year in rent, and potentially transportation costs and commuting time as well. He's not funded or seeking funding, he doesn't go to the networking events and hasn't been through an accelerator. I don't care for these things either. They tend to be time sucks and overly focused on investors. Look, I am skeptical of those Tim Ferris apostles whose "passive income" businesses are based on spammy blogs, apps, and affiliate sites. But don't sleight startup businesses because their methods of operation don't fit your definition of a startup.
  • proland 13y ago
    I think you may have missed the subtext of the article.
    • ilamont 13y ago
      Yes, I did. Probably a bit too trusting and gullible. But the bootstrapping/office comments pushed my buttons. I started two companies. The first failed (1). During the year or so that I was involved, I spent a lot of time doing startupy things - networking sessions, hanging out at a coworking space in Cambridge, pitching, applying to accelerators, etc. The local startup community, event organizers, angel investors, the media, and some people affiliated with the local higher education establishment encouraged this startup behavior (or startup theater). I feel they looked down on any startup that didn't fit the mold. Here's one small example: When you meet someone else in the local community, one of the first questions they have is "Where are you based?" In my mind, this is a test of legitimacy. "Real" startups say something like: - Kendall - Seaport - Cambridge Innovation Center - Dogpatch - The accelerator gives me a desk and WiFi. I feel that founders who answer "Starbucks" "The Library" "Home" or "Virtual Team" aren't taken seriously. That's how I feel now, at least, sitting in my living room. Even though my 2nd company has products, profit, and growth (2), it's not taken seriously as the first, which never had a dime in revenue but was based in the CIC, applied to accelerators, etc. 1. http://www.ilamont.com/2012/10/failing-hard.html http://www.ilamont.com/2012/10/failing-hard.html 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6053105 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6053105
• patio11 13y ago
  The conversation has been known to continue: SG: "You should join our company as chief growth hacker, since it's a great fit for your skills and experience. You'll work 100 hour weeks. We're thinking $60k a year and 0.5% sounds fair. Come change the way the people $VERB." PIH: "Where do you get to the part of the sales pitch where I get something out of this deal?" SG: "Did we mention the free soda?" (I'm joking... but not by much.)
  • lovesgreen 13y ago
    Agree 100%. This article is especially funny because the author's startup is Followgen. While a twitter app that automates social interactions may be a useful tool and a great thing to work on, it really isn't changing the world.
    • jvoorhis 13y ago
      Hence the dig in the final sentence about "exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity." Knowing the author's work really changes how that sentence is read.
    • antitrust 13y ago
      What among the "web 3.0" series of sites/applications do you think is really changing the world? I think what we do in development is cool and all, and most importantly profitable, but I don't know if it changes the world much. Google changed the world. Lotus 1-2-3 changed the world. DOS and Linux changed the world. But any new application? I think we're just offering luxury items. I don't see anything wrong with that (see "profitability" above).
      • mattmanser 13y ago
        I once worked on a document management/project management system, the devs were first port of call for the client IT teams. Boring, right? Non-game changing? One phone call I got just after it was installed at a 15-20 person business. I'd helped them out with something and asked how the roll-out was going: Client: "Yeah, it's great, we're loving it. Bit of a problem though..." Me: "Oh right, well maybe I can help you out, what is it?" Client: "We don't know what to do with Sue and Bill now, they don't have any work to do. What can we get them doing?" This boring, non-game changing software had automated roughly 10% of their workforce. Obviously not great for Sue and Bill, but when you put it in those terms the cost savings across all the clients we were serving must have been 10s of millions of pounds. That's millions of pounds to be spent on actually building things instead of just faffing around with admin stuff making sure the subcontractors got the right diagram, or finding out what the site foreman's phone number was. Even the silliest auto-tweet tagging software means you can do more with less, that's why people buy them. Almost all software is game changing. Never doubt we are all changing the world. It's just that the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. What Google did back in the 90s is almost laughably simple to what most of us do today. But obviously what they do now is much more complex.
• richardlblair 13y ago
  Unethical?? HAHAHAHA. PIH supports themselves, and their family. They aren't a drain on the system, and owes nothing. Realistically, Startup Guy is pissed because his photo sharing website that allows you to apply filters isn't getting traction.
  • JimmaDaRustla 13y ago
    But he got the good domain name! Filterfy.io /s This outlook on both PIH and start ups is quite knaive/ignorant. PIH doesn't want the inherent risk, and maybe responsibility, of a start up. This author seems to criticize a developer who loves developing for not converting his passion, and recklessly throwing himself into a managerial role. Why does every idea have to be a startup?
  • Anderkent 13y ago
    I think you missed the point. This is pretty strongly pro-PIH.
  • tehwebguy 13y ago
    I believe the last paragraph is sarcasm.
• snoonan 13y ago
  Ok, I'll speak up as a "PIH". There are a lot of ideas that help people that will never touch VC money or can support a company with all of its overhead. It's not out of laziness. It's how a great programmer should look at all problems -- what here is redundant, manual and gets the most bang for the dev time and CPU cycles? When you're a team of 1, your I/O bandwidth is almost infinite. If it's all in your brain, you don't have to explain anything, write anything down, have meetings, draw on whiteboards, etc. Your available time to work collapses down to solving specific business problems with every line of code or web page update. Imagine a case where you never have to compromise, argue, make brain dead concessions or spend resources on proving your position. Assuming you are right, and have a good head for business, marketing and writing half-way decent code, you can solve a small problem every efficiently. There are a lot of $20k-200k problems out there to solve that are not worth it for a company of any size to even touch.
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
• duncanwilcox 13y ago
  Counterpoint (old but relevant): http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/04/success-and-farming-vs-mining.html http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/04/success-and-farming-vs-mi... The article paints non-startup guys as parasites. That's so needlessly polarizing. The more common definition of the Passive Income Hacker is "lifestyle business", i.e. a business where you don't seek a 10-100x exit. Personally I think if all you've done or plan on doing is an app or website, calling it a startup is kind of silly.
  • drone 13y ago
    The more common definition of the Passive Income Hacker is "lifestyle business", i.e. a business where you don't seek a 10-100x exit. I have to disagree with this one, of all of the people I know that have "lifestyle businesses," they were as committed to the early stages and aggressive as most of the "startup" guys I know. While some of them, after years of work, got to "minimal interaction with the business," most of them still work it hard for a standard week. The only difference between them and the "start-up guy," is they don't ever want to exit. I've always seen the PIH "movement" (if we can call it that), much more opportunistic than many "lifestylers" - there's a big difference between being committed to something for life, and and trying to find a way to make money by doing as little as possible. That last part is not to say that all PIH's are opportunists working on things that make money even if they could care less about them - but the movement is distinct from that of "lifestyle" business, where the goal is to make enough for a good life, doing something you enjoy/love.
• purephase 13y ago
  I so want to be a PIH. I just can't get enough free time to put my shit together as my day job sucks it all away.
  • felixvolny 13y ago
    Quit.
    • antinitro 13y ago
      Maybe good advice, but I'd recommend having a few months wages as a cushion.
      • snoonan 13y ago
        Better to have an MVP and a few customers (paid or expressed paid interest) first. That's what I did + the cushion.
    • scottmagdalein 13y ago
      Don't quit.
  • snoonan 13y ago
    You could find a smaller problem to solve. Get up an hour early and work for yourself.
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  • mlwarren 13y ago
    I'm in the same boat as you. Even if I have free time in the evenings or weekends a lot of my desire to be in front of a computer is gone. I've been slowly chipping away at a side project but I feel like if I wasn't weighted down by my day job I'd be able to get on with things faster.
• rdouble 13y ago
  This was like reading an excerpt of the HN version of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" but with the opposite conclusion.
• guard-of-terra 13y ago
  "Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy." Is this serious? It's epically funny if it is. Even if PIH is trying to make world a better place, he doesn't have to do that on his "billed" time. He has a lot of time to spare for that.
  • adregan 13y ago
    True. Maybe he/she mentors a child in his/her spare time.
    • glugglug 13y ago
      We do have gender neutral pronouns of a sort: "True. Maybe they mentor a child in their spare time."
      • jastreich 13y ago
        They is technically plural. There is no good singular gender neutral pronoun. So, "he/she", "s/he", "he" or "they" are fine by me; we know what the author means.
        • steveklabnik 13y ago
          Where 'technically' means 'people have used it as both singular and plural but some people like to argue' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
      • nobodysfool 13y ago
        'One' may be a good choice also, although singular they also works. "Maybe one mentors a child in one's spare time."
      • adregan 13y ago
        Perhaps. Some might disagree with that, but the "gender neutral pronouns" debate is both long and boring. After all, he and she have both been used throughout English writing to denote all people male and female. Certainly a person using he/she his/her is well aware of the possibility of using they their instead, and perhaps said person is making a stylistic choice. I do not object to the use of colons, but if I did — insisting on the use of Em dashes instead — and I were to comment that there were perfectly fine alternatives to the colon on every post that used one (such as yours), I might be considered an overly pedantic nuisance.
• bpatrianakos 13y ago
  What a crock. I get that some of this may be tongue in cheek but I really despise this attitude. There's this sort of weird pseudo-religious belief that by virtue of being involved in a startup you're somehow doing the world some great good. Your new social/local/mobile app isn't world changing no matter what kind of hustler you are, no matter how much hype you put out, no matter how much money you raise. Anyone can be a capitalist for good or bad whether its exploiting a niche market segment on your own or with a startup. I believe that regardless of whether you're on your own or do a startup, if your motivation is purely financial you can still do the world great good. Similarly, do-gooders with a grand vision can harm the world. Your stupid little messaging app can connect people from around the world and change the way people communicate (throw in some good crypto and you've done even more good for private comms) or your energy startup that's supposed to change the way we fuel our vehicles and provide clean cheap energy forever can end up doing great harm to the environment or put millions out of jobs as a side effect. These are obviously very hypothetical examples but the point is that there's no "motivation + execution = ethical/unethical success" formula. There's way too many shades of gray to even be able to consider generalizing like this post does.
  • michaelerule 13y ago
    To me the generalizations in this article come across as ironic or satirical.
    • nicholassmith 13y ago
      It's a very tongue in cheek post, there's been a few posts from that blog linked on HN and they've been very full of irony and satire.
  • btbuildem 13y ago
    I think he was poking fun at the startup guy there.
  • ampersandy 13y ago
    I am unsure as to whether you are scorning or agreeing with the author. You pointed out that a) this is tongue in cheek and b) seem to agree with the fact that founders shouldn't be scorning anyone not following in their footsteps. Why can't the author make a generalization about startup founders based on his experiences? We all have stereotypes about other races, nationalities, people with a certain 'look'. Of course there are many shades of gray in between. That doesn't preclude us from associating certain character traits with someone before we've ever spoken with them because of how they look or where they are from.
• readme 13y ago
  >Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy. Is this supposed to be what "startup guy" thinks, or is it also the opinion of the author? Seems like a pretty jarring assumption, if you ask me.
  • sard420 13y ago
    Some people just have that attitude, if you don't dedicate yourself 100% to your work (read my company) then your just some lazy pos, because "surviving" and "thriving" is lazy. Where you know PTSD, and mental health issues for a salary is pulling yourself up by the bootstraps.
    • yankoff 13y ago
      There's also an opposite extreme. Some people think that spending time on your work (company, project) should take not more than 5-10% of your time, the rest you should spend hiking, traveling, singing or whatever else that doesn't have to do with tech. It seems that for such people tech is not the main area of interests and they can't understand that things can be different for other people.
• 10dpd 13y ago
  As someone whose Twitter account has been suspended as a result of using the OP's "Passive Income" hack, I wish he would spend more time thinking the project.
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  • michaelerule 13y ago
    I believe that statement is made in irony.
  • scottmagdalein 13y ago
    I think he's being ironic.
• superconductor 13y ago
  I tried doing the passive income thing. I set up dozens of blogs with adsense, amazon affiliate links and sold software. What happened surprised me: it was soul-crushing. I felt dirty. Turns out that meaningful work is what fulfills me. Making "free" hands-off money doesn't excite or inspire me. Totally a learning experience.
  • peterjancelis 13y ago
    Have had the same experience. I also think the internet is evolving in such a way (mostly importance of reputation) that being the 'best craftsman' in a niche is being rewarded again. Much like in the old village life where you made a good living by being the best baker in town.
  • bdcravens 13y ago
    Remember the "hacker" part of PIH. While the content approach is a passive income technique, pretty sure the author meant building a SaaS app that has recurring billing.
  • yankoff 13y ago
    Exactly. Some people keep promoting the "virtue" of having a passive income and being able to not work at all. It seems to me that they can't wrap their heads around the idea that some actually enjoying working on their projects every day, building something and improving from day to day.
    • jbjohns 13y ago
      For me, the goal of passive income is flexibility. Sure, I would hope that I wouldn't have to work if I didn't want to. But it would also mean I could work on anything that interested me. I have a huge list of projects I've wanted to work on forever but will never have time if I don't find a way into financial flexibility.
  • zem 13y ago
    this seems to be a psychology-of-the-individual thing; i would love to have a passive income stream so that i could do meaningful open-source work without having to worry about whether it paid me enough.
• 6ren 13y ago
  A self-running business seems cool and magical - like creating a living thing... life! But, I think, for truly passive income (meaning it runs itself), he's right that it does have to be some kind of arbitrage opportunity, that will tend to stay around. By definition, it isn't intrinsically interesting or satisfying. But, in itself, there's nothing wrong with that. OTOH, I'm not saying startup guying is the only solution - just that satisfaction requires ongoing work. Once you complete your startup (for example), you have to find something else to do - another startup, create YC... something. Why not just do what you find satisfying in the first place? It could be a startup. It could be just to make money (e.g. Warren Buffett loves making money). Or it might be something else. Here's a twee story about a hand-to-mouth fisherman http://www.rinkworks.com/peasoup/richman.shtml http://www.rinkworks.com/peasoup/richman.shtml
  • DanBC 13y ago
    If you pick the right passive income thing it could provide the money you need to do the work that you find interesting, which might not have any money in it. > Why not just do what you find satisfying in the first place? The satisfying thing might not pay the bills.
    • 6ren 13y ago
      Maybe. I think that satisfying work (stressing that it's "work" not just pleasurable activity) will always be creating value. And value is valuable to someone, in some way, hence there's a way to make money from it. Maybe not very much money... A second problem is it might take time before that value is recognised. Hence, the painter's, actor's "day-job". Passive income is a day job. However, it's actually quite difficult to find a passive income niche, it's work and risk to do it, they usually end up not being 100% passive after all, and few niches are stable long-term (even huge enterprises don't last forever).
  • ogd 13y ago
    the problem is that my satisfying activity would be beach sitting, margarita drinking, and orgy-having with hot women. Unfortunately, this life is far from income generating (quite the opposite)
• ezl 13y ago
  1. The "unethical or lazy" is what the counterparty says to feel better about their own lives when they're failing. It's human nature to want to believe you're pursuing the best path. 2. I don't understand why people like to draw such a hard distinction. It doesn't upset me that some people prefer sushi to steak. People are entitled to their own lifestyle choices without judgment of those who make alternate choices. This isn't just a software/business/career choice issue. Paleo people love telling everyone else that their diet is the best. Many vegetarians often evangelize to others and imply there are serious moral imperatives at stake. Just because someone isn't doing what you're doing doesn't make them "lazy" or "unethical". On a side note -- I think "pursuing narrow arbitrage opportunities" is often something someone would say with disdain, but that's my flavor. 3. Most startup people aren't particularly making the world a better place anyways. I'm sure a lot of that is written tongue in cheek, I loved it until the "narrow arbitrage opportunities" and "lazy/unethical" ending.
  • ccross59 13y ago
    > I'm sure a lot of that is written tongue in cheek, I loved it until the "narrow arbitrage opportunities" and "lazy/unethical" ending me too. It just changed the whole tone and I didn't really understand it was a joke, sort of, until I read your comment.
  • squozzer 13y ago
    Yeah, here's my take on the labels -- unethical = someone who's more successful at making money / getting laid / achieving their life goals than the person rending judgment. lazy = someone who doesn't seem to sweat as much / act like an ass than the person rending judgment.
• lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  What is a passive income hacker. All I really understand is someone reading the 4-hour work week, and then writing a fifty-dollar pdf on how to feed blue canaries a vegetarian diet with really long sales letters. I would quite like five figures a month working from starbucks, so if I am missing a trick let me know
  • rdouble 13y ago
    They actually make their money off of the ebooks, seminars, boot camps and other how-to materials about how to have passive income.
    • lifeisstillgood 13y ago
      Forget I asked - I simply cannot imagine going off to learn enough in the grey-area to make it worthwhile. I will write decent software for a niche here or there and see where we go.
      • nobodysfool 13y ago
        You don't even have to do that. You can buy the e-book with distribution rights and make your own website to sell it, advertise on adwords, and away you go. My dad did it, he was getting an extra $100 a month with no time involvement at all. Once he got the paypal email his autoresponder would reply with the ebook. The only thing he had to do was once a week or once a month check his adwords account.
  • chc 13y ago
    > What is a passive income hacker. We have a number of them here on Hacker News who are very much not selling ebooks on vegetarian canaries. The most prominent one I can remember is jasonkester, who runs a cloud service analytics company that evidently requires very little upkeep. If you're interested in the topic, try doing an HNSearch on him for relevant terms — he's been very enthusiastic about it over the years.
  • MortenK 13y ago
• allinzen 13y ago
  As a former passive income hustler turned startup guy - this is so true. What's most important is to be comfortable with what you do regardless of others opinions. That's the one thing I could do without in start up land. The prosthelytizing.
• sockgrant 13y ago
  It was a great read, until the end where in the last sentence it was really ambiguous whether he was being sarcastic about "He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy." Everything was so obviously tongue in cheek until that point. But, the ambiguity was actually welcome because it forces the reader to wonder and in turn choose their position. It's a fun read.
• wnevets 13y ago
  I would rather be the PIH, how do I become him?
• OldSchool 13y ago
  Of all income sources, I have to say the passive sort is the most desirable and scalable. You can have as many meaningful hobbies as you want if your bills are paid, unrelated to your participation in commerce. Sadly, risk-free investment returns have been decimated by 0% funds from the US central bank. We can only hope that we are reaping more rewards through active business as a result, but Fed policy has really punished those who have been financially prudent.
• unlimit 13y ago
  Loved it, brought a smile to my face. This is exactly what I am trying to do.
• vladmk 13y ago
  Am I the only one who dislikes this post because of the assumptions it makes on startup founders? Statistically most startups are bootstrapped, this was written by someone who is arguably caught up in the silicon valley hype, you don't need to get funded for everything...Also the other guy has obviously built something called a "lifestyle business" google it if you don't know what that is, the noob startup guy is way too nooby to know what that is. Unless the hacker guy is a hacker and is doing something illegal, I don't see why the conversation should get awkward...
• rubiquity 13y ago
  Startup-ers can be some of the most self-important people on the planet. "Passive Income Hacker" is making a living for himself and quite possibly his family as well. There's a lot of nobility in that.
• vvpan 13y ago
  This article is arrogant and pretentious. Come on, it trivializes one side while glorifying the other beyond reasonable. It seems to say that if you work on a startup you are the cool kid, and otherwise you are loser. Just like high school.
  • Bognar 13y ago
    It seems you've missed the point. The article is still arrogant and pretentious but also sarcastic. The writer sees himself as a Passive Income Hacker.
    • vladmk 13y ago
      you missed obnoxious I'd add obnoxious in there too.
• bluekite2000 13y ago
  I m a developer in New York. I have a few good engineer friends I met while living in Vietnam. If any of you here happens to have a product that qualifies as a passive income product and need a tech partner let me know.
• chenster 13y ago
  The last line I suspect is out of utter jealous.
  • ignostic 13y ago
    I suspect you missed the sarcasm. (The author is PIH)
• doctorfoo 13y ago
  Yay, now I have a label for what I am. A passive income hacker. I don't make a lot (maybe $3K / month), but I work only ~half hour a day on my main money spinner, answering support emails. (Plus, maybe a few months solid every year or so on updating the tech.) I designed it so it doesn't have a DB or user account system, to reduce the complexity and make it easier to scale by one person with only certain skills. Users regularly ask for an account system. I don't add it; I have competitors who do have an account system, and there's no way I could compete with them by myself. A certain subset of users appreciate the simplicity of my service. When users email me support questions, they get a personal response from the guy who made the thing. They probably don't realise either, since most contacts start with "hey X team" or "hey X guys". Having said that, I do work a full day, on attempting to start other passive incomes, and on more fun things that have less chance of earning. So I'm not quite living a pure passive income dream yet.
• kbenson 13y ago
  I love how his comments section is hacker news.
  • solistice 13y ago
    Hacker News makes for a really good comment section.
• rwalling 13y ago
  Oh man...he had me until he called thousands of people, many of whom I know personally, "probably either unethical or lazy." I think we can all agree that there are multiple ways to approach startups. The misstep Myles makes is to assume that one approach is somehow superior to another, and then take the further step of insulting everyone who is striving for something different than what he sees as the best option. We all have opinions on this topic, and it's an interesting discussion to have. But let's try to avoid dogma and judgment. What's right for your unique situation isn't necessarily right for the 100,000 other people with similar ambitions, but who may be in vastly different life situations or just have different goals than you do. Oh, and call me when you're 40, married with 2 kids and a mortgage, and you're coding Perl for a bank because none of your startups made you the millions that TechCrunch promised.
  • gottagetmac 13y ago
    What are you talking about? PIH is the Myles surrogate in that conversation. He's making fun of Startup Guy for thinking that anyone who does what he (Myles) is doing is "unethical or lazy."
    • rwalling 13y ago
      Oops...apologies to Myles if I mis-read this - I thought he was mocking the PIH, taking the side of the startup guy.
      • gottagetmac 13y ago
        Myles in fact does have a small one-person low-intensity startup off which he claims to make 5 figures per month. And don't you notice how he makes his lifestyle sound really good, and the startup guy's judgments seem silly? The funny part here is that you read this and actually agreed with Startup Guy for almost all of it. (From the rest of the comments it seems like a lot of HN did). That's part of his point, I guess.
      • jreinholdt 13y ago
        I made the same mistake. Maybe we are so used to other people being super skeptical to what we do? See you in Prague ;-)
• iblaine 13y ago
  I have to disagree with this post. Passive Income Hackers are usually hustlers with more street smarts than technical skills. Startup Hackers are the opposite.
• MitziMoto 13y ago
  I honestly cannot figure out which guy (PIH or SG) this article is "making fun of" (maybe it's both?). I've read it twice now, and it can kind of go both ways. Maybe that's the point.
• brendoncrawford 13y ago
  Changing the world is the new blinking text, or rounded corners.
• PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  Huh, are there actually Startup Guys who want to "make the world a better place through technology?" I thought the basic plan was "build and maintain an amazing, indispensable service for exactly long enough to get bought out by Google/Microsoft/Yahoo/Apple, then retire to Tahiti while the new owners fire everyone and ruin the product." e.g. Siri before Apple: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/siri-do-engine-apple-iphone_n_2499165.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/siri-do-engine-appl...
  • rdouble 13y ago
    Your summary does not describe the story of Siri in the linked article accurately at all.
    • PhasmaFelis 13y ago
      No? Obvious hyperbole aside (no one retired to Tahiti that I'm aware of), it seems pretty close. A company built an extremely ambitious, bleeding-edge app, sold some early copies, were preparing to roll it out on every meaningful platform, then got a fat check from a tech giant and promptly became platform-exclusive, ripped out a lot of the more interesting features, and fucked over their early adopters. (The folks who paid actual money for the Siri app on the iPhone 4 were not amused when the app suddenly announced that it was disabling itself and they'd have to buy a new phone to keep using it.) And, really, how many times have you heard someone say something like "Man, that service has gone to shit since Yahoo bought it"? It seems to come up pretty frequently. I'm sure there are entrepreneurs with actual integrity regarding their startups, but it seems like a lot of the big success stories end with "and then we sold to Google for $100 million, we win, the end."
      • rdouble 13y ago
        That's not what the article is about, though. It's almost like you didn't even read it.
        • PhasmaFelis 13y ago
• ivanhoe 13y ago
  making the world a better place... mostly for themself, though...
• Dewie 13y ago
  It is apparent from the comments here that many don`t realize that the author is being sarcastic. I wonder what it is about the delivery that this fact isn't obvious enough? Because I think that there has to be something with the article if so many interpret the tone of it incorrectly.
  • mtoddh 13y ago
    It is apparent from the comments here that many don`t realize that the author is being sarcastic. From Wikipedia's page on Asperger Syndrome, under Speech and Language: traits include "literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance". Makes me wonder when I see threads like this...
• joshtronic 13y ago
  as a PIH and a father, I have to chime in and mention that my lazy & unethical self gets to spend a great deal more [quality] time with the family now that I'm no longer working 24/7 at a startup. sadly, no one ever gets man of the year for being a good parent.
• kennstone 13y ago
  :D, Get Income invest on your own business, then get customer to make it grow. It must more satisfied then look up for investor :) Btw you must see in the end, is there FBI or any kind police knock on your door :p So make sure your business clean!!! Cheers
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• isaacb 13y ago
  This started out so well and I was hoping it would end along the lines of "different hackers with different goals," but steered way off course to some vitriolic attack on the casual hacker lifestyle. I think if anything, bootstrapping your product to success is far more respectable than taking large sums of seed funding and potentially throwing it all away when you find that your market doesn't even exist.
• Hydraulix989 13y ago
  What's so bad about being "Passive" Income Guy? This guy is out there monetizing with his self-bootstrapped "boring" SaaS that has real customers, while Startup Guy has blown through multiple rounds of investors' money with his quixotic third-pivot "change the world idea" that still hasn't earned a single penny but is being regularly pitched at circle-jerk networking events to the other benchwarmer wantrepreneur spectators banking on some highly improbable IPO. Wait, who did you say was unethical, lazy, and not a hustler again?
  • mkrecny 13y ago
    OP here. I guess it wasn't clear from the article that I am a passive income hacker, and that I'm poking fun at startup guy.
• liam_boogar 13y ago
  The stereotypes are funny, and startups, by nature, will always be filled with a majority of hustlers, but it may also inadvertently lump an entire group of startup founders -past,present and future- into the "SG pile," whom I think don't belong there. That being said: i think i've heard this conversation and event had it (sadly, from the SG side in my less-educated days), and I think this conversation is intended to force people to ask themselves "am I a poser or do I want money?" which is a false dichotomy. I'd rather look at people who want to make money by creating value vs. people who want make money by creating perceived value.
• mhsutton 13y ago
  I found this post mildly amusing. It is a terribly simplified and mildly offensive comparison of two sets of objectives. Neither of which are actually right. Startup is a phase - not a stereotype. Teams are not essential to either a startup or what you term a PIH. The skills needed for the challenge are. Not the number of people. Not all startups need nor want outside investment. Not all startups have an idea that will change the world. Not all startups need, want or are suitable for accelerators, incubators or other similar vehicles. Startup is neither better nor worse than a single person building something to improve their livelihood. Best I can tell, the author equates a startup to what is popular in the press. Young geeks, big rounds of capital raising, buzzwords galore, huge acquisitions and all the hype that goes with it. I think bunkum like this devalues the efforts of entrepreneurs everywhere and demonstrates such a closed mind in a space where openness is increasingly important.
• raverbashing 13y ago
  "Worst of all, PIH is probably not trying to make the world a better place through technology. He's basically exploiting a narrow arbitrage opportunity and is probably either unethical or lazy." Really, really? Regrettable This looks like the kind of dreamy SG that only wants to do "good"(by his definition) and doesn't have an attainable goal. Or the startup guys that want to use the latest and "greatest" so he writes version 1 with whatever.js and when he's about to launch he decided to rewrite everything in drunk_pangolin.js "because of integrity" (except that drunk_pangolin.js is still in version 0.1, has 1 part time developer and no docs)
• gravedave 13y ago
  Passive income always sounded to me like either a fantasy or a career of ripping people off.
• nilkn 13y ago
  Really amazed at the number of commenters who didn't pick up on the sarcasm. But, honestly, how many developers are there making five figures a month in profit passively (more or less)? That is an extreme amount of success, far beyond what most people will ever enjoy in their life.