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Don't be evil: Moving everything off of Google
- babuskov 13y agoThe site uses Google hosted jQuery. Guess being tracked by Google is not an issue for them. ;)
- hnha 13y agoif Google was nice and concerned with people's privacy they would not log anything on those hosted files but a simple integer hit counter.
- rednukleus 13y agoIts a shame that they put such a ridiculous linkbait title on an otherwise good article.
- dmytton 13y agohttp://dbpmail.net/essays/2013-06-29-hackers-replacement-for-gmail.html http://dbpmail.net/essays/2013-06-29-hackers-replacement-for... is a good tutorial on replacing GMail. GMail is excellent at search and spam filtering, everything else is just a standard e-mail service. The tutorial points out how you can at least try and match the level of spam filtering with the community based Pyzor.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- skriticos2 13y agoDon't underestimate search though. Being able to quickly find information (content, contacts, etc.) from years of unstructured eMail communication with a simple search box is very powerful. At work I have to use Lotus Notes and Outlook and compared to Gmail they really seem stone age when it comes to find information in the archive.
- ekianjo 13y agoVery true. Gmail does that very well, but that's not something you cannot solve if you are very disciplined on how you use, store and archive emails. Gmail makes it frictionless, and that's probably one of its biggest assets, but in some workplaces, as you mentioned, people are forced to use Notes or Outlook and you learn to live with it. It's not always as frustrating as you might think. For example, I am certainly much more "messy" in the way i use email with Gmail since I know I can find things easily, but that may be a disservice to act this way in the end. You form bad habits.
- Rustan 13y agoUse Autistici/Inventati: http://www.autistici.org http://www.autistici.org
- takluyver 13y agoI may be an outlier, but I like GMail first and foremost for its interface. Ever since I started using conversation view, it's just seemed like the obvious way to show e-mail. Nothing else really matches it, although Geary is trying now.
- dochtman 13y agoI've found Fastmail to be really good (although I haven't been able to figure out some of the anti-spam stuff so far).
- unhammer 13y agoFastmail is nice. I'd love to host my email on my home server, but from what I can tell, to send SMTP I either need to get a static IP (costly / impossible) or use some smpt routing service, in which case not that much is gained from self-hosting. I wrote about how I use Google-alternatives here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5718126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5718126 An addendum to that, since the article mentioned Music and OwnCloud: I use Subsonic to stream my music collection, the Android app is very nice in how it caches so I always feel like I have full access to my complete collection without getting huge mobile data bills; I don't think OwnCloud's music app can match Subsonic quite yet.
- jancborchardt 13y agoownCloud designer here, thank you for the kind words! Two things you might like: * We’re reworking the Music app this summer, see http://kabum.github.io/2013/06/20/GSoC-First-report/ http://kabum.github.io/2013/06/20/GSoC-First-report/ * There is a stable News app to read RSS feeds: http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580 http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580 Cheers!
- brongondwana 13y agoThanks from FastMail for the kind words too :) Quite agree about keeping outbound SMTP working. We spend quite a lot of time and effort in both keeping our outbound email relatively clean to stay off blocking lists, and making sure we support all the latest signing, DNS magic, whatever antispam tricks are in existence to improve the reputation of our IPs.
- moreentropy 13y agoYou can't call it "everything" if you keep Gmail. Personal email would be the most important service to get under your own control, and it's the hardest of all problems to solve.
- robotmay 13y agoZoHo Mail isn't bad, I've been using that instead of Google Apps at the moment. Ideally I want to switch to my own server but I never relish the thought of setting one up.
- nkorth 13y agoI recently switched from my own server to Zoho.
- RexRollman 13y agoI use Hushmail and I like it. I have also had good experiences with Fastmail.
- nilved 13y agolavabit + GPG
- neya 13y agoIsn't this something like pre-mature optimization? Most services (like Blogger for example) haven't shut down yet and probably won't. So, just because Google didn't support some open source protocol, doesn't mean we should suddenly decide to move away from a service that's really been good so far. If the service is good enough, then why bother switching providers? At the end of the day all businesses want to profit . Also, it's a matter of personal preference - Some like Gmail and some like Hotmail. But moving away from a really good provider because it doesn't provide a 'feature X' (unless it impacts you in anyway and makes it unusable) then I see no point in moving away at all.
- ekianjo 13y agoBecause you see the trend coming. I just logged in my Picasa web albums a few days ago after a long time and now it defaults into Google + photos BS. The problem is, there are no more RSS feeds in Google + Photos. So I Have to use Google + to get access to these pictures, unless I revert to Picasa Web Albums. But it's clear Google will kill off Picasa Web Albums down the road and the RSS feeds for your pictures as well. It goes against my interest as a user, so I will actively be looking for ways out of Google as well. It's not a "win-win" situation anymore.
- cromwellian 13y agoAnd what online service are you going to find that a) stays up forever and b) never radically changes the UI? Let's say you find a photo hosting service to does RSS feeds, what guarantees to you have it'll last longer than Google? For christsakes, Reader lasted 8 years for a free service, there are many non-advertising/pay-fee services that have not lasted that long.
- ekianjo 13y agoSelf-hosted solutions, probably. Since we can't trust suppliers to deliver their services consistently.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Mikeb85 13y agoThis seems silly. Google has been consistently less evil than Microsoft, Apple, and even Amazon, and has the best services. I'm all for alternatives (especially open source and non-US based alternatives), but if Google is still the most convenient service provider at the moment, I'll continue using them.
- kryten 13y agoEvil is boolean if you ask me. Corporations don't deserve a second chance either.
- rustynails77 13y agoI have been somewhat of a Google fanboy (alright, too strong-a-term, but you get the idea). I encourage people to leave Google - because you know what? If enough people leave, Google will fight EVEN harder to stop blanket monitoring. When I hear Google scream from the top of their lungs "innocent until proven guilty" and "burden of proof required" then I will believe they are doing enough. Maybe Google should change it's background color to black? Until then, I fully support anyone who looks for alternatives.
- eonil 13y agoIt's surprise still there are people think in this way.
- popee 13y agoYet, at the end you can find them in the same category. How can that be? :-)
- hitchhiker999 13y agoThat may not be true - it's just that Google have been a lot smarter at hiding their 'dodgyness' than Apple, and certainly than Microsoft. If you have time: https://medium.com/surveillance-state/32ba2b38c219 https://medium.com/surveillance-state/32ba2b38c219 - this is part of an overall move towards 'a bit more evil' than the general public is aware of.
- 13y ago
- Joeboy 13y agoPaper calendar suggestion seems kind of defeatist. I just switched to http://radicale.org/ http://radicale.org/ (from my old nokia phone calendar, not from google) and it seems fine so far.
- mirkules 13y agoNot really defeatist, but impractical. There are functions like reminders and invitations you just can't get with paper calendars easily.
- kryten 13y agoYou don't always hear reminders and invitations don't always work properly. I'd rather have neither than any that aren't trustworthy.
- spinchange 13y agoNothing always works properly ("Perfect is the enemy of good"). A paper calendar and pencil simply doesn't scale if you need to share & sync calendar events with a team or group of people. Or simply want to keep your phone's datebook in sync with the one in your email client, etc.
- kryten 13y agoYes but some things rarely work perfectly. It scales fine. In fact it scaled for hundreds of years before electronic calendars appeared. They mobilized two world wars with pens, paper and typewriters. Synchronisation is not an issue if you have one single source of truth.
- spinchange 13y agoI get that you don't need a digital calendar. I've really not ever had that many issues syncing our team's calendars between mobile & desktop clients. Perhaps I've had good luck. It seems your argument against a digital calendar holds for all the things you're seeking a non-Google replacement for. In light of that, do we really need email or blogs, or federated IM, for that matter? Write a letter instead.
- xwei 13y agoMove from one evil to another. Wasting the time. This is real world please!
- eonil 13y agoNo. Real world is full of various DNA, and we can breed less evil by choosing. Moving from one to another is never wasting the time.
- MoreConsiderate 13y agoI am reminded of this cartoon, http://pbfcomics.com/111/ http://pbfcomics.com/111/
- phxql 13y agohttps://mail.opera.com/ https://mail.opera.com/ is not that bad.
- robotmay 13y agoStill waiting for the Linux client, but once that's about I'm going to give it a proper go.
- phxql 13y agoI didn't ment the desktop client, i wanted to point to their email services.
- brongondwana 13y agoBasically fastmail with a different skin and without most of the power features.
- edem 13y agoAs for music I think that for Linux (I guess you probably use Linux since Windows is just as evil as Chrome or Facebook) XMMS is still the best player. I use it for years now and I never had problems with it. It also comes with a Winamp-like interface and functionality.
- pedromorgan 13y agoMaybe Google should create GoogleEurope, a seperate comany.. The already got one offshore from the USA.. and it would bypass the USA also.. ;-)
- WA 13y agoWhat difference would that make? They'd probably set up a big cable to transfer data from Europe to the States anyways. Recently, I asked an email newsletter service provider in Germany (like Mailchimp) where they store all the people's email addresses. They use some Amazon service with company HQ in Ireland. However, does that guarantee me that Amazon doesn't transfer any of the data to US data centers?
- gordaco 13y ago"When you’re paying for your social network, it makes you a customer instead of a product". Wrong, you're still a product. The "consumer vs. product" dilemma is a false one.
- ekianjo 13y agoPlease explain. Are you saying that App.net is using your data anyway to sell ads or something else?
- robryan 13y agoWell, not sure what the OP is suggesting but your content is definitely a product that is attract other users to also pay.
- drivebyacct2 13y agoNetwork effects are something people already pay for: XBL, PSN, WoW, other games like WoW that I don't know.
- ekianjo 13y agoMaybe, if he turns it in this way. I was however referring to what Apps.net says on their about page: https://app.net/about/ https://app.net/about/ "We are selling our product, NOT our users. We will never sell your personal data, content, feed, interests, clicks, or anything else to advertisers. We promise."
- olegp 13y agoI agree that it seems a little premature, but it's a good thought experiment: could you move off Google if you wanted to? At StartHQ we provide a list of automatically generated alternatives, in case anyone wants to give it a go: https://starthq.com/apps/?q=google https://starthq.com/apps/?q=google
- kasbah 13y agoI just took a look at Google Reader and the suggested alternatives are: - Google Voice - Google Contacts - SugarSync - Otixo - Dropbox Not very helpful.
- olegp 13y agoThe automatic alternative detection kind of failed there. I'll update the list manually. In the meantime, you can find all the Reader alternatives just by searching: https://starthq.com/apps/?q=reader https://starthq.com/apps/?q=reader
- tn13 13y agoMost people are ignoring the biggest problem that Google is causing. Gmail's virtual dominance in email field is going to be extremely hurtful for the rest of the hacker and startup community. At the end of the email marketing remains the numero uno method of user acquisition and retention. With the new features such as priority inbox and automated classification of personal emails/promotion emails it is going to make it impossible for new consumer web startups to succeed.
- kryten 13y agoThis is where Microsoft was 6 years ago. Before that, IBM/Lotus. Times will change again.
- zem 13y agosorry, no, i would be thrilled to have promotional email automatically separated from my personal email. it may make your job of user acquisition (isn't "user acquisition by email marketing" just a euphemism for spam?) and retention harder, but this is my inbox, not an extension of your ad campaign.
- tn13 13y agoTrue. But the idea is that "you" should decide that and not google. For example google might chose to block 99% of the marketing emails which might make you happy but at the same time Google will decide which 1% of them will succeed.
- h2s 13y agoIf GMail kills email marketing, I will walk all the way around the world to Palo Alto and personally shake Larry & Sergey by the hand. Nobody likes email marketing, not even the people building their livelihoods on top of it. If Google managed to snuff out such a widely reviled marketing channel, it would be an enormously disruptive force in the tech industry. And disruptive forces aren't hurtful for the startup community at all. Disruption makes room for innovation. Sure, it'd be bad news for SendGrid, but it'd be awesome news for some lucky group of people in the 2015 YC batch.
- conformal 13y agoi did this several years ago, feels good knowing that google has to work hard to spy on me versus me just giving them all kinds of info about myself via search, etc. the only thing i use is a throwaway gmail address that is mostly a spam magnet.
- danieldk 13y agoWhenever I read such posts (moving everything off Google/FaceBook/...), whatever the rationale, I feel like I am living in a parallel universe. All my friends are on Facebook and as much as I dislike Facebook's piracy invasion, it's an excellent tool to keep in touch with people. I could drop Google Talk, but as much as federation is a good thing, ironically I wouldn't have many people to talk to, since they use Google Talk/Hangouts. Perhaps a decentralised file sharing tool is better. But everyone is using Dropbox and Bittorrent Sync will be too outworldish for colleagues/family/friends.
- antocv 13y agoCome on now, "everyone is using" may have something to it, but its also a marketing/mind-trick of keeping people locked in to these services. I remember in 2004, 2005 when Gmail began, why would anyone use gmail, everyone is using hotmail (shared experience). Why would anyone begin using skype, everyone is using msn? Why would anyone begin using Facebook everyone is on MySpace? Someone has to be the first, take the step. Its us geeks that have to take the lead, do it. Just imagine if 5% of hn people would all begin using alternative software, improving it in the process. Free software at its best. Just a dream? Time to jump of the trainwreck of these "cloudy" "services".
- adrianN 13y agoPeople could start using gmail because emails work independently from the provider. If gmail provides the nicer user experience you lose nothing from switching. People started using Facebook because it was exclusive for a group of students. They were friends in reallife already and Facebook made it easier to coordinate. People started using Skype because it allowed calling real phones cheaply, msn doesn't. A large fraction of HN readers probably use Linux and free software. A fraction of them probably even improves the software they use. That doesn't mean that the average person wants to switch too.
- antocv 13y ago5 years from now, "People started to use seamless encryption and pseudo/anonymizing services and protocols because it was exclusive, cheap and safe." You are right in pointing out that all the services we switched too, had some USP, I believe I2P, ownCloud, Citadel, Tor, gnunet, OTR/XMPP all have their USP too, and that is safety and freedom to express and say what ever the fuck comes to mind without self-censorship or fear for what consequences/blackmail it might have in the future. I have a thing to not talk about the "average person" because it means too many things and more often than not is a patronizing way of saying idiots. But lets go with it this time, the average person has no incentive to use productive equipment like a PC at all and they are perfectly fine with a consume-only, digitally-rights-managed, locked-down, surveillance device. We hackers should just give up on them, let them eat cake. /rant.
- jalada 13y agoAll good suggestions, but heavily focused on non-collaborative solutions. For example a paper calendar is no good if you regularly use your colleagues calendars to schedule events and know what is going on.
- ekianjo 13y agoWell, people have been living with paper calendars for dozens of years and were still able to launch rockets and stuff. I think we overestimate the usefulness of some digital tools. Making it easy to schedule meetings often results in tons of unnecessary meetings - it's better to have some friction there. But I guess it really depends what you do - there are certain use cases for digital calendars, but in my experience the way they are used is unproductive.
- reeses 13y agoI hate working with people who send me a note after they've already sent me a meeting request, telling me that they saw an opening on my calendar and have set up an hour-long meeting with no agenda. It's a weird combination of laziness and an unwillingness to use other tools (email, issue tracking, typing). If they just typed up an agenda (heck, Confluence has a template ready) we could probably wrap up the whole thing while I'm goofing around on HN. Having to go through an EA/PA to schedule meetings is one of the best ways of exchanging money for time, plus you end up having one person who never makes you cringe, unless you start worrying that they're giving notice because they're starting their own company or moving across the country.
- robotmay 13y agoThanks for the Photographer.io mention! I was about to deploy Dutch and Polish language support when I noticed the traffic rolling in, so I'll be leaving that for a few hours now in case I break it. If anyone has any questions about privacy on Photographer.io or any other general questions then I'd be happy to answer. You can also email them over to support@photographer.io if you prefer.
- Rustan 13y agoGreat site! Switching over from 500px.com
- robotmay 13y agoGlad you like it! Make sure to let me know of any problems you find or ideas you have; I love getting feedback on it :)
- acomjean 13y agoI'm going to give it a try. I tried 500px but something about it seemed off. I use instagram and just started with flickr. I have an old site that turned folders of photos into table based galleries which I coded up last century....
- antonwinter 13y agoi kim dotcom gets his crypto email going, we can help google be less evil by moving to that.
- SamWhited 13y agoPGP and S/MIME work perfectly well. Personally, I'd be wary of any new crypto solution until it had been extensively independantly verified and burned in for several years.
- owenwil 13y agoCan we stop with the circlejerk hating on Google now? They didn't close down services that we didn't see coming. Reader could have been predicted a long time ago - the service was not updated for well over a year before they announced it's demise and the death of XMPP is simply because Google was pushing forward with their own services. Companies have to make money. Google's always been in it for the money. Microsoft could shut off any of their services at any time. So could Dropbox or your favorite news site. Stop complaining and joining the circlejerk, think for yourself.
- unclekreepy 13y agowhy be a google hater? .. they arent going anywhere for a while and only the non used services get shut down.
- SamWhited 13y agoAs I mentiond, I'm certainly not a `Google hater.' I just don't want all of my services in one basket because I want ot be less dependant on one provider and the integrations between their services.
- Kiro 13y agoAm I the only one who want the opposite? I love having everything seamlessly tied to one ecosystem. The synergy effects are worth it and I can't see a better company than Google to handle it.
- markeganfuller 13y ago>and I can't see a better company than Google to handle it. Google hasn't exactly been a good company recently, at the very least the whole reader issue has caused a lot of worry.
- sbuk 13y agoNot to forget the alleged heavy involvement in PRISM.
- sbuk 13y agoWhy Google? Genuine question.
- twodayslate 13y agoWhat has a better ecosystem?
- sbuk 13y agoThat's not what the grandparent was suggesting from what I understood.
- yfefyf 13y agoThe "ecosystem" is shutting down one service after another.
- Joeboy 13y ago> Am I the only one who want the opposite? No, you're clearly in the majority of people who value their own convenience highly. I unfortunately have to include myself in that majority too, although less enthusiastically than you. > The synergy effects are worth it To you as an individual maybe. Overall the prospect of a populace whose information and activities are all stored and logged by a small number of entities is a pretty big "it", and I don't think the (admittedly great) personal convenience is worth it. Edit: It occurs to me that your use of the word "ecosystem" is a bit weird. Really, what you're saying is akin to saying you like the advantages of a monoculture.
- stettix 13y agoAnother cloud file storage service worth checking out is Jottacloud (http://www.jottacloud.com http://www.jottacloud.com). It has similar features to Google Drive and Dropbox but being based in Norway, it complies with stricter laws on privacy and data ownership. See for example the question "What does it mean for me that my files are stored in Norway?" in their FAQ (http://www.jottacloud.com/faq/ http://www.jottacloud.com/faq/).
- dombili 13y agoIt seems like a good option. Relatively cheap as well. But are they encrypting my files? On the FAQ page they say that during uploading the data transfer is encrypted, but they don't mention if my files stay encrypted on their server.
- twentyfourseven 13y agoThere's something sketchy about Jottacloud. I don't trust it. I installed the client a few weeks ago and it wouldn't upload my files. The program just froze. When I tried to uninstall the software it hung again (I had to manually delete it). It's still in my start menu somehow, although I disabled it. And this is happening to a guy who religiously scans and cleans his Windows partition. I recommend everyone stay away.
- frebdel 13y agoA similar service is Wuala (https://www.wuala.com/ https://www.wuala.com/), which is owned by the French company LaCie. They say your files are encrypted using AES-256 before they leave your system and the key stays with you. Apparently the only thing their employees see is the number of your files and their size. Their servers are in Switzerland, France and Germany.
- buro9 13y agoI get the point of moving other services to places that are encrypted, private, secure, and cannot be reached by NSA, GCHQ, etc. But... email? It goes over the internet in plain text, has substantial meta-data, and even the contents are trivially small to store. When people want to come off of G+, Facebook, etc... great, that makes some sense. If they want to stop using Chrome Sync, and to use Firefox, install add blockers, anti-trackers, change their hosts file, use VPNs, enable Tor, change DNS provider... great, that makes some sense. Email makes a lot less sense though. It's effectively public and what security exists is about effective as your front door lock. It keeps out the average person that passes by and little more than that. There is actually some argument to be had that if most of your contacts use Gmail that you should stay on Gmail as the email wouldn't route via the public internet. I am sticking with Gmail, but am using a Google Apps for Domains account for it as that allows you to configure the domain to fully disable other Google and related services (G+, YouTube, advertising, Drive, etc). I then access Gmail via Chrome Incognito and live the rest of my internet life in Firefox. Effectively Google for me, starts each day afresh, sand-boxed in a private browser session, and with no permission to do anything else. The only other Google things I used they have already shuttered or have announced they're doing so. Effectively when this happens I am one of the n% who don't move to G+ and roll off of Google services. I do wonder if we'll ever hear what % of users didn't go to Hangouts when they re-branded and closed Talk. What % of Latitude users will vanish when G+ gets whatever location sharing capability. Maybe it's negligible to Google, but it doesn't feel negligible when I speak to friends who used to use Google a lot more.
- yelnatz 13y agoHe said he's keeping Gmail too.
- buro9 13y agoOh I realise, but the title suggested otherwise (and not everyone RTFA, though I did). I was actually replying to others in this discussion who advocated "move your email too". I originally composed the above as a reply to one of those, realised I was replying to several (4 at this point) other replies, and figured I'd make the point more generally that moving email provider achieves little.
- samweinberg 13y ago>There’s no free membership, but I consider that a good thing. You can sign up for a free App.net account with an invite. I have a few, anyone interested?
- sthatipamala 13y agoYeah, I'd like one, please! Could you send it to the email in my profile? I can't figure out how to contact you.
- samweinberg 13y agoSent!
- visarga 13y agoI think it's a time of opportunity now. Someone could become the provider of private internet experience to uproot Google, Apple, MS and the rest. We need a single, all in one solution for all the basic things: email, search, video, photos, social networking, calendar, sync and maps. Have I forgotten anything? Another essential app is a Tor-like browser with strong privacy support. All of this needs to be bundled in a private cloud app capable of handling from one person to a group with thousands of people, like, for example, a university. We need to be able to own our own data, to have access to our logs and to be the only party who has access to our logs. This whole thing needs to be open source and thoroughly tested.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- znowi 13y agoThe recent Google Reader shutdown and Google Hangouts disabling XMPP federation made me realize that any of my services could go at any time and I didn’t want to be so dependant on a single provider or the integrations between services. It's interesting how the recent NSA revelations didn't play a role in this decision. Providing NSA access to user data - Fine, whatever. Shutting down a service - How dare you! Evil company! Consumerism trumps the civil rights.
- Rustan 13y agoI've done the same, but switched to: * Autistici/Inventati (http://www.autistici.org http://www.autistici.org) for email and jabber * owncloud for files, calendar, news, contacts * cyanogenmod and f-droid instead of vanilla android and google play
- _pmf_ 13y agoThe sad thing is that one would think that these migrations away from their services should worry Google, but they are apparently offset by the benefit of being able to concentrate on serving the sheeple.
- vacri 13y agoany of my services could go at any time [, like] Google Reader ... a lead time of months, with daily notifications in the final month? But he's willing to go with other cloud services? As for the total abandoment of google products, it seems petulant. 'I won't do Android, I'll do Cyanogen instead!'?
- wutbrodo 13y agoIs there anything to this post but petulance?
- hellcow 13y agoI've been extremely happy with Fastmail.fm. It's a few bucks a month, and you can't tell the difference between it and Gmail--as long as you delete emails after you no longer need them, of course. I also started using a pen & paper planner by moleskine rather than iCal. It's actually very nice.
- puppetmaster3 13y agoYou can use EU based GMX.com for email in USA. I do.
- tteam 13y agoIf you want a easy file storage, sharing and sync solution consider our Tonido product (http://www.tonido.com http://www.tonido.com)
- paranoiacblack 13y agoFuck it, I'm going to start writing my programs on punchcards and mailing it to Github HQ to test the results of it. Then I'll handwrite letters to my coworkers to finally switch away from the evils of email. For blogging, I'll literally stand outside of coffee shops on a soap box and talk about how boring I am. My only file storage will be a cabinet in my house. I'll hand draw my own maps. I'll do organic searching through newspaper listings. For social networking, I'll go outside and announce to the world how I'm feeling, only accepting their emotions if they like it. For photography, I'm going to buy a polaroid camera and keep the pictures in my cabinet. Fuck Android, I'm bringing back rotary phones. My feed reader will be the random clippings at starbucks. Stay classy, HN.
- numbchuckskills 13y agoThis post is rubbish. 'Looking for a replacement for Google Calendar? Grab a piece of paper.' Unless every event you attend is by yourself, and you keep your calendar rolled up in your pocket at all times, that's an extremely poor solution.
- alan_cx 13y agoDepressing thread this.... I think this thread demonstrates why the privacy issues with the likes of google, facebook, etc are pretty much vapor complaints. Essentially, people are happy in the end to sacrifice privacy for convenience. With that mind set, we can easily see why no one really cares about NSA slurping. As far as they are concerned, all the NSA has is what facebook, gmail etc, have. So, what is the problem exactly? And you know what, I can understand the point. I disagree, but equally, I understand. Having read about how people won't move form FB because it easy to stay there, since their "friends" are there, I now realize most people really are not committed to privacy while it means some sort of inconvenience. There is even a reply here where a friend who wont use facebook is referred to as an "outcast"... Understandable, but also says it all. Depressing.
- lucisferre 13y agoI'm not sure if that's more depressing or that so many seem to feel that boy-cotting services is an effective way to address the illegal actions of governments and corporations. I would hope that people would consider instead demanding we hold governments and organizations accountable for crimes directly and demand our rights be respected. Picking up your ball and going home is not the correct response to these things, nor will it help or fix anything.
- antocv 13y agoThis, online services, and not taking action is no different than not taking action over bankers/politicians stealing your future. If somebody had told me in say 2005 or 2006 that "hey, the government will just print like several trillions of dollars, ultimately backed only by your tax money, and just like that give them to failed banks and other corporations, the CEOs of said banks will then give themselves hefty bonuses for almost killing the economy. oh and the banks will also foreclose many peoples houses because the small people cant pay their debts either." and not one beep was heard from the population, not one broken window. Its not some small money stolen from them either, its entire college-educations and pensions, standard of living lowered. But, hey, they're still better than Africa so its fine.
- jpd750 13y agoGood idea, I may make the switch more entirely as well. I already have started with DuckDuckGo
- SamWhited 13y agoDuckDuckGo's pretty great — I started using it several months ago as an experiment and once I got used to it realized I actually preferred it to Google. The instant answers are fantastic and when they don't have what I want I can just write it and submit a pull request on GitHub. Love it. Results still aren't quite as good but they work 90% of the time (and I don't have any problem going back and trying Google during the other 10%)
- ds9 13y agoLots of cheap web hosting providers offer webmail for one's own domain. Having never used Gmail I can't compare the interface, but I find it friendly enough and have no difficulty syncing the web view and Thunderbird (debranded as Icedove) at home. Even semi-technical people can do this with a little effort. I do use the Google search sometimes, and sites that retrieve from GoogleAPIs, but frequently dumping all cookies, cache and such and changing browser details will keep you off the radar if you wish. People speak as if it's a big hassle to avoid depending on big companies - or to avoid the tracking and wiretapping - and but it's really just a question of the relative values one attches to privacy and convenience.
- emehrkay 13y agoDamn, Google may have people locked in more than Microsoft of the 90s
- jusben1369 13y agoAs we know all services are vulnerable at any time to disappearing. Startups failing, large companies sunsetting. It then appears the question becomes "What is the cost to me of this service going away?" where cost can be how long it would take to move to a comparable offering at that time. Then you way that up against "How much am I giving up each day/week/month if I use a service I want less but am doing so due to my fear of being "all in" and at the mercy of Google's whims?" So when I see an article like this (which I enjoyed) I tend to think the above is simply out of whack with a "I'm getting off every service"
- ssharp 13y agoSuch action is extremely impotent if you still keep Gmail. Aside from chat, email is the most private service on the list and failing to give up on that exemplifies how people value convenience over privacy. This type of "activism" is almost negative if you're fighting for better privacy.
- nathanb 13y agoFWIW, I use Linux and am fairly happy with Amazon Cloud Player. The lack of Linux support for their downloader is annoying, but I don't feel the need to download entire albums particularly frequently. When I do, spinning up a Windows VM is the work of but a moment (I haven't tried running the downloader under wine, but it probably works well). I don't mean to excuse Amazon for their Windows-only mindset or suggest that lack of Linux support won't be a big deal for you, but don't let this post discourage you from trying it in case you're a Linux user who wants to give it a shot.
- markshepard 13y agoInteresting, I have been in this line of thinking. Google has been as cavalier about user data as the rest except that it has the holier-than-thou attitude. Made the painful move back to firefox on all my computer after being used to Chrome. I have started using DDG in desktops but still depend on google on my mobile devices. Email, I am still stuck with gmail as the primary mail box (Which I am actively working on to move out to paid account).
- cromwellian 13y agoIn what way has Google been "cavalier" about user data?
- lambda 13y agoOne problem with moving away from Google is Google Maps. While OSM does have some fine maps, they don't have navigation or business search. I use Google Maps on my phone all the time to find "where's there a restaurant around here, and how can I get to it?" Is there any privacy-preserving service that does anything similar?
- SamWhited 13y agoUnfortunately I've never heard of such a thing. Let me know (by email) if you find anything though and I'll happily add it to the article.
- brini 13y agoHave you looked into OsmAnd [1] for Android devices? You may find it not as slick as Google Maps, but it does have Points of Interest search. [1] http://osmand.net/ http://osmand.net/
- lambda 13y agoI tried OsmAnd. I needed to download a bunch of map data when I first installed it; but once it had downloaded some of the maps, I still couldn't view anything, it kept telling me that it was still downloading maps (I don't know why it couldn't display the ones it had already downloaded). Once it had downloaded all of the maps and would show me something, I tried to get it to give me directions. I could not (and still cannot) figure out how to set a destination. I scroll to a place I want to go, touch the menu button, touch "show" or "follow", and get a message "please select a destination first". I long press on where I want to go, which pops up a bubble that shows my latitude and longitude (not, say, what businesses are there like Google Maps does), and try doing directions from the menu again. Nope, "please select a destination". There is no search by address, or anything else. If I use Google Maps, I can usually type in the name of the place I'm trying to go, and it will find the address and from there find the route. Even being able to find the route from OsmAnd has eluded me. Ah. Just now, as I tried it again, I found that I could long-press on a location, then touch the menu, touch "use location" (at the very bottom of the menu, almost off the screen, and which apparently means "use the location that I just long-pressed", not "use the location I'm at"), touch "destination", choose to either navigate or show the route, and then get told that it can't determine the route because the location is not available as I'm indoors without good GPS signal. It needs some substantial work before it's actually usable. For instance, it needs a prominent search that will take the name of a business or an address and route me there with a minimal number of touches and decisions, and even if I'm indoors and don't have a good GPS signal. I use mostly free software on the desktop, for my work. When I have time to sit down and debug something and figure out how it works, I'm willing to put up with a less than ideal interface; it's worth it that I have access to the source, that I can fix bugs when I find them, that I can get in touch with the original authors and pay them to fix a bug for me. But when I'm trying to navigate to some new location on my phone on my vacation, I need something that just works. I don't have time to fiddle around with a lousy interface. I don't have time to look up the address of my destination elsewhere, then scroll around the map until I can find that address and go through a long press and several layers of menus before I can get directions to it. What we really need is freedom preserving software that just works. It doesn't need to have every possible option and knob. It doesn't need to offer every feature under the sun. It just needs to make it easy for me to find where I'm going and tell me how to get there, without going through endless layers of menus and making me figure out where the destination is in the first place.
- SamWhited 13y agoThanks for the comments and suggestions all; I've updated the post with some of the suggestions people have emailed to me (diff: https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/commit/62f00e5cd952f7b5fd0a0c137000139ba4455fd6 https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/commit/62f00...).
- jancborchardt 13y agoownCloud designer here, thank you for all the shout outs! There’s also a great RSS feed reader for ownCloud since some time: http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580 http://algorithmsforthekitchen.com/blog/?p=580 – installable from the App settings, would be cool if you can add that.
- superuser2 13y agoWhere is he hosting this stuff? What makes you think Linode/DigitalOcean et al would violate US law to protect a customer?
- blacktulip 13y agoOK, IMHO if you keep gmail, you have not left google. Having one service with them and having multiple services with them are essentially the same. I am trying to do the same thing. Problem is, I used my gmail address everywhere already. My contacts know me by my gmail address. Dropbox identifies me by my gmail address .. you know what I mean. I moved my custom domain emails to fastmail. But my @gmail account can't be moved. I really don't know what to do with it. I am stuck.
- gyardley 13y agoAutoforward everything you get to it to one of your custom domain emails, and set up an autoresponder that says you're no longer using GMail, points to your new email, and tells the sender you'll stop checking GMail soon? After about a year or so of that (plus having the presence of mind to update your email address whenever you use a service), you should be able to delete your account without too much inconvenience. Yes, it's a pain, but that's how lock-in works.
- chris_mahan 13y agoGive yourself 1 year to migrate off. Tell everyone, services, etc. at the 6 month mark, put that in your sig. at the 9 month mark make an autoresponder. at 12 month, close the account.
- chris_mahan 13y agoActually, don't close the account. Just let it lie dormant.
- cromwellian 13y agoAny web service could "go at any time", in fact, the smaller players are more likely to fold up shop, not give advanced warning, and not offer something like Google Takeout. It's happened before. Some smaller players in the past didn't even have good backups, and simply lost user data. You could self-host, but again, unless you want to put a lot of labor and money into reliability and security, you can also lose. I'd call the reasoning used in this article "Reader Derangement Syndrome".
- dave5104 13y agoI'd certainly trust Google to shut down a product more gracefully than a startup.
- jthol 13y agoI seriously don't understand the logic behind this whole article. Is he really afraid of the google play store disappearing? Is he aware that you can install an apk from anywhere after changing one setting? Virtually everything that's been shut down by Google has had a graceful shutdown where you could export your data in a calm manner. It sounds like he's more concerned about the NSA stuff than having services shut down but never really says that. It's just a weird rant as far as I can tell.
- efa 13y ago>>why do I want my calendar to be online anyways Wow, my Gmail calendar is the one thing I can't see doing without. View from anywhere, seeing my team members schedule, adding invites to each other's calendars. It's pretty much my task (or reminder) list as well.
- tomkarlo 13y agoMaybe if he was using Google to host his site, it would still be up. (Yes, I'm being glib, but with a point - there are real downsides to moving away from services like Google that have industrial-strength cloud services behind them. Just because you can move to other things or self-host to improve privacy doesn't mean there aren't major tradeoffs.)
- yuhong 13y agoLet's trace the problems. I don't think Larry, Sergey, Eric, or Marissa have security clearances, do they?
- ikusalic 13y agoKeeping GMail invalidates almost all the other efforts. That is the frist element of Google addiction that needs to go away. GMail is tying you down to Google and is unfortunately hardest to break free from. My choice (at least for now) is Fastmail. Disclaimer: I feel strongly about this topic [1] and think that most of HNers should too. [1]: http://www.ikusalic.com/blog/2013/06/04/case-against-google/ http://www.ikusalic.com/blog/2013/06/04/case-against-google/
- Estragon 13y agoI had a bit of trouble adapting to the kinds of results I was getting and what sort of language I used when searching (I didn’t realize how tuned-in to Google’s search algorithms my subconscious had become), but after using it for a while I began to love it. I'd love to read a tutorial about how to adjust search queries to suit DDG. Maybe this is why I find it to be such a pain, and always switch back.
- thinkinggorilla 13y agoI am a poor man using services of Google. Thanks Google. I want to know how the alternative service users are so sure that this will solve their privacy issues by not using Google services. Are they insiders in NSA, or NSA cannot track you on other alternative services. HOW DO YOU KNOW ?
- SamWhited 13y agoDid another round of edits; if you sent me suggestions and they're not in there I decided not to include them for some reason (or forgot about them). Full diff here: https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/compare/979ccd9...HEAD https://github.com/SamWhited/blog.samwhited.com/compare/979c...
- spoiler 13y agoI am very happy with the fact that Google personalises my search results, because 99% of the time it does it right! I remember one time where it got in the way, and getting "around" it didn't require too much effort. Also, if I need to find a replacement I will do it when necessary. I enjoy being Google's slave, because I feel treated nicely & I am happy! Although, the fact they dropped XMPP support is a bit sad.
- spoiler 13y agoI am very happy with the fact that Google personalises my search results, because 99% of the time it does it right! I remember one time where it got in the way, and getting "around" it didn't require too much effort. Also, if I need to find a replacement I will do it when necessary. I enjoy being Google's slave, because I feel treated nicely & I am happy! Although, the fact they dropped XMPP support is a bit sad.