13 ms·

Coffee shops look to oust 'laptop hobos'

123 points by Irishsteve 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- zalew 13y ago
  for me it doesn't
- drmr 13y ago
  I'm also unable to view the article because of this.
- TheCapn 13y ago
  Hmm I didn't need one. here's a direct cut/paste of the article for you: http://pastebin.com/y4LcHVAx http://pastebin.com/y4LcHVAx
TheCapn 13y ago
Such a weird topic to me. Wifi as a free service became popular as a way to attract people to establishments but the side effect is they get leeches. So at this point they want to reduce them, some taking steps far enough to remove the wifi. But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? Knee jerk reaction to a fad? Maybe it helped them grow in the first place? I think any service, free or paid needs some sort of regulation from those who will take advantage of it. Having rules which state you need to be paying a customer and limit your stay to 30 minutes or whatever per order is probably the absolute maximum you require since its privately owned property. Having the rule covers your ass when you need it but doesn't require you to enforce it when traffic is slower.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? There's this concept of "moderation" and things going over some limit etc. That they added something (free wi-fi) to lure customers, does not mean they also want people taking it's use to an extreme (forgetting about the coffee, etc). Similarly, that I needed a friend and made friends with some guy doesn't mean I would appreciate seeing him 24/7 around my place.
  - showerst 13y ago
    I think this might also be something technology could solve. Hosted wifi networks always seem awful, If there was some way to super easily enforce a bandwidth and per-device time limit to discourage squatters without making the network impossible to use, that would be great.
BudVVeezer 13y ago
As a telecommuter, I recognize when I go work from a coffee shop that I am using their resources. But that's why I 1) buy stuff while I'm there, and 2) tell all of my friends what a great place it is. If one of my local shops pulled this on me, they'd not only lose my business, but that of friends when I tell them about the experience. Perhaps this isn't a big concern (I'm not particularly important, after all). But if it happens with enough customers, it could be bad for business in a more broad sense.
- zalew 13y ago
  People that don't like being surrounded by laptops will take your and your friends' place. No worries, cafes without wifi work just fine.
  - BudVVeezer 13y ago
    Perhaps in busier cities, but since I live in central Maine, that's not necessarily the case.
  - staunch 13y ago
    Exactly, catering to the the growing logizomechanophobic segment is so hot right now.
    - m_ram 13y ago
      logizomechanophobic Wow, what a word! http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechanophobia http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechan...
- maximumsteve 13y ago
  I'm alienated from coffee shops because of laptop users. I'm around electronics all day. When I go to the cafe, I want a break with a cup of coffee with a friend. I don't want to see one person hogging a table for four, or overhear business phone calls and headphones. I'm not saying that I'm important either, but these are the reasons why I will choose one cafe over another.
jbail 13y ago
Is this really a serious problem? Anecdotally, 9 out of 10 visits to a coffee shop, I just get coffee and leave. 1 out of 10, I am meeting someone, usually to go over some business. In the 21st century, this typically requires Internet connectivity. Not offering WiFi or putting time limits on it would make me feel unwelcome. Feeling unwelcome will make me not want to patronize said coffee shop the other 9 out of 10 times. What's the secret sauce that makes Starbucks so successful? They made it a comfy place to hang out...the "3rd place" between home and work where you can go and feel welcomed. Schultz is always talking about it. Obviously, Starbucks is one data point, but I think there's something to it.
- MWil 13y ago
  my local starbucks is always freezing which makes me want to leave even if i meant to stay
  - evanspa 13y ago
    So is the one by me. When I asked the barista why, she said it helps keeps the fruit-flies away from the bakery items. I just bring a sweatshirt with me when I go.
    - textminer 13y ago
      She was being homophobic. :\
      - perishabledave 13y ago
        Really? This seems like a logical answer if taken literally.
      - pekk 13y ago
        I don't think cold affects gay people more than straight people, so probably not.
        13y ago
MWil 13y ago
You can tell a good coffeeshop by the ambient temperature they maintain. If you're cold, they want you to get it and go. I'm lucky to have a coffeshop/arcade nearby. The owner wants you to stay, hang out, play games, read some comics. Sometimes I've gotten 3 drinks and food throughout the day. It's not a great study/work location especially when you get distracted watching someone else play a new game on the projection screen but the ample seating means no one walks in and goes "oh...well, guess I'm getting it to go"
antitrust 13y ago
That's a bummer. I like the ability to go hang out at a coffee shop on off hours, do a little work and a little websurfing while I down a cache of caffeine. However, I have seen some of the true hobos who are using it as an office, and taking up more than their share of space. It even happens at restaurants that will let you order only a coffee. We seem to have a lack of public spaces in the USA. At least, public spaces that have wi-fi and power outlets which you don't have to rent by the hour.
princess3000 13y ago
Seems like there might be an opportunity for something in the middle ground between neighborhood coffee shop and full-on coworking space.
- Avshalom 13y ago
  Libraries.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    Silence + no food allows creates a very different space from a cafe. It has value also, but it's not remotely the same thing.
    - EvanKelly 13y ago
      I've written to my local library organization suggesting cafe areas in some of the bigger libraries. Never heard back, but I really hope they think about it. It could raise some money and improve patronage. The local library is much more convenient for me than the coffee shop, but I need to be eating/drinking when I'm working on something.
    - uxp 13y ago
      If you're near a University, check out their library. Most of the time they'll have a cafe, guest wifi, and a reasonable amount of white noise for a library.
      - ben1040 13y ago
        Yep. I live a mile and a half away from a university and I use their library for working on side projects. I've found it to be a great place for helping me focus. Years of schooling have programmed me to think that the library is where you go to be serious about getting work done, and I'm often more effective there than if I sit at my desk at home.
    - kroger 13y ago
      I was surprised when I found that the library close to my place in London (at Swiss Cottage) has a cafe inside and seems to have a relax policy on eating snacks inside the library.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
This doesn't surprise me. I recently read a thread (could have been on HN but I'm not positive) and I was surprised at the number of people that think it's fine to spend a few dollars on a cup of coffee and then take up a seat and use the free wifi for 8 hours. Most coffee shops (excluding the higher priced places like Starbucks) rely on a high turnover of customers to make a decent profit. There is quite a high markup on coffee but as it's usually so cheap ($1-3) they need to serve a lot of customers. In my experience coffee shops also tend to be quite small and finding a seat is difficult. When I see a place like this I usually go somewhere else. I can understand why they get annoyed at 'laptop hobos'. If you're going to take over a seat in the coffee shop for a day at least buy something every couple of hours.
- rhizome 13y ago
  Textbook "Tragedy of the Commons" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
- cookingrobot 13y ago
  The obvious answer (to me) is for libraries to sell coffee.
- larsonf 13y ago
  I have been wondering for a long time why Starbucks and other coffee shops don't simply charge for wifi. 5 USD/3 hours seems like an absolutely great deal. Whenever I do work at Starbucks it's very productive and would be happy to pay for the right to be there. In fact, I wish there were a way to pay for the wifi so I didn't feel this guilt of whether to buy more items. The people who aren't happy to pay for being there are the ones you don't want. Get this: There's a Starbucks near where I live that literally has a homeless guy in the same chair every day with a laptop. Guess how long he's been doing it? 3 years! It's insane. Have people pay, charge as much as the market will bear, problem solved. How are we even talking about this?
nickpinkston 13y ago
Visit San Francisco's 'Coffee Bar' in the Mission to see a place the eeks out every drop of profit with many kinds of seating and various rules over time for some areas. Always packed and people learn the rules quickly. Lots a good nudging going on.
mindstab 13y ago
Could almost make a case for a "tragedy of the commons" situation here. Common resources of seats and wifi. Most people treat them reasonably using the seats for social interaction and the internet for meeting resources perhaps, but some people having no reason not to leech onto it and over use it then causing the aforementioned problems ruining it forever one with blanket bans and plug power slots. As per usual moderation is probably the key. Around here lots of places give out wifi for 2 hour per drink. At least they keep you buying if you are going to sit and take up space and wifi. Seemed pretty fair to me. Most casual cases and meetings are well with in 2 hours so more cases are covered and the hobos get the boot or are forced to pay.
Zikes 13y ago
Obviously there are two sides to this coin, and that calls for two solutions. Some coffee shops can certainly adopt this and similar policies to cater to customers that would prefer not to be around people tapping away on their keyboards, while other coffee shops can become the new haven for those people. I think it's a fair solution, and it reminds me of how some restaurants will adopt policies to ban children from the premises for similar reasons.
enraged_camel 13y ago
A lot of people don't understand that WiFi service at coffee shops is provided as a courtesy, and as a result they tend to take it for granted. I know people who, after buying their first drink (the absolute cheapest one on the menu) sit at a table for hours at a time and use the Internet. Fundamentally, I think this behavior is unethical and I'm fully behind coffee shop owners who take measures to discourage it. The best one I've seen is the method where your receipt includes a WiFi code that is good for two hours after activation. That is plenty of time to get work done, and afterward if you want to continue working then you go buy another drink.
- toyg 13y ago
  Even better: have the code last longer depending on the amount you spend. Buying a high-margin drink? Have 3 hours on the house! Grabbing the cheapest option on the board? Sorry pal, it's 30 mins for you. There's a business model there, I think. (The only problem for me is that I hate hate hate wifi portals. They all suck.)
  - mjn 13y ago
    A coffee shop I used to frequent [1] tried to take a "soft" approach to that, by having a sign near the electric outlets under the tables, asking patrons who were going to stay longer on their laptops to spend at least $n/hr (I don't remember what $n was). So people who didn't use the outlets didn't get bothered, and those who did got some guilt pressure to either buy things or not stay all day. I don't have any inside information on how well it worked, though. And this was a few years ago, so maybe that particular trick wouldn't work as well in these days of 10-hour MacBook Air batteries. From chatting with a few managers in the Santa Cruz area (not sure how representative a market it is), they didn't want to actually drive away the laptop crowd, because that provided the majority of their business for much of the day. To some extent they wanted to be a coworking type of space, because there's no other way to fill up a coffee shop in Santa Cruz or Capitola at 11am on a Tuesday in November. They just wanted the laptoppers to either keep buying stuff periodically, or else keep their visits somewhat reasonable (i.e. not 8 hours on one coffee). A different place I used to work at [2] actually liked me staying around all day, whether I bought something or not, on days when it was mostly empty, because it helped give the impression that the place wasn't deserted. They did most of their turnover on tourists, though, so there was sort of an informal agreement that laptopping regulars should move along when the place was full (mostly weekends or summer afternoon/evenings). [1] http://www.cafeugly.com http://www.cafeugly.com [2] http://www.mrtootscoffee.com/ http://www.mrtootscoffee.com/
epoxyhockey 13y ago
The Grove on Fillmore St in SF has a goodbye to wifi sign near the entrance that I just noticed a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was pretty interesting. I, personally don't mind the wifi'ers at Starbucks or Panera, but my main comment is that the seating plans of these shops are not setup for solo workers. One visit to Starbucks had a slew of wifi workers sitting at 2-person tables. I couldn't help but think that the shop was a 1/2 occupancy just due to the seating plan. It's definitely an interesting problem. Everyone has laptops, and coffee shops seemingly are not hurting for patrons anymore.
thufry 13y ago
WiFi is a decreasingly relevant weapon as more people have more devices with faster 4G connectivity. They'll need to start outright bans.
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  I've noticed that there are two types of laptoppers that frequent coffee shops, the "well-heeled" and the "hobos". The former are social, interesting, always buy drinks/food. They may stay for a long time, but they typically add to the atmosphere rather than detract from it. The only thing that really bugs them is when the Internet is spotty or really slow. Then there's the other sort, the "hobos." They bring a ton of crap, (I saw one guy haul a fricken printer into a Starbucks) it's even chances on whether they'll order something or not, get angry at the drop of a hat, and you get the distinct feeling like they don't have / can't afford Internet at home. The thing about the latter is, they tend to have older laptops whose batteries can't hold a charge. Guaranteed they won't have 4G devices. So removing the power outlets is probably the easiest and best solution to the problem. You'll keep the good sort from being able to stay all day, but if the problem is really that bad, the well-heeled wouldn't want to stay anyway due to the atmosphere being created by the hobos.
darkarmani 13y ago
All of the comments on the msn page, seem very self-righteous. If only there was a way to monitor bandwidth per attached wifi device and slowly limit it for devices attached for a very long time. Why can't they do something like this using a $50 WRT54G and the Tomato firmware? Just turn the QoS setting on and put everyone in a very low bandwidth class. You don't need a perfect solution (like giving 50MB per coffee).
- joezydeco 13y ago
  Then it becomes an arms war with people installing MAC-spoofing widgets on their systems. People will always find a way to cheat the system.
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    I don't think the system collapses if 5% of the people cheat the system. The problem is that 50% of the space is taking up by leachers. The enemy of the good is this perfection you are looking for.
- bluedino 13y ago
  Any QoS would be a big help. A lot of the shops only have what appears to be a T1 connection and once you get someone streaming video, it can ruin it for everyone else. Don't stream or download huge files, be courteous.
ripter 13y ago
It always seemed to me like leachers are something that shops should deal with on a customer by customer basises. But I can understand why they want rules from corporate. It can be very hard for a barista to tell someone to leave (or even kick them out) but let another person stay. I know several Starbucks where people will spend 8+ hours sitting there with their laptop. There was even one guy that would be there from open to close 4-5 times a week! Some of these people would get agressive about which table was "theirs" or which outlet they used. (one guy was from another country and his power adaptor blocked the second outlet.) Blocking the power outlets help, but a good MacBook will last 4-8 hours anyway. I'd hate to see the free wifi disappear because of a few bad apples.
- dman 13y ago
  Tragedy of the commons.
- anotherevan 13y ago
  Bring your own power board and be a hero to all your fellow hobos. :-)
D9u 13y ago
I've never been a coffee drinker, so I'd sometimes park where I can pick up a signal, using my vehicle as a power source, but since I got a "4G" mobile hotspot I no longer use free wifi and I have the option of smoking while in the confines of my automobile as well as a change of scenery as the situation permits.
- anotherevan 13y ago
  You should check out Geek My Ride. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80 He claims to have the fastest web server on the planet. It'll do about 160km/hour.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  And all the while using a resource that the actual customers pay for. Although I'm sure next will come the claims that an open Wifi network, rather than a mere administrative convenience, is an "invitation".
- bdcravens 13y ago
  I occasionally go to a local Starbucks and work (especially if I'm out and about and can't make it back home between errands). Wifi is usually pretty bad, and I prefer to tether 99% of the time.
dkrich 13y ago
Fairly simple solution- try selling Gogo-style wifi to customers? That way people who are using the wifi the most will be paying their share. Counterargument: "I'd just go to a place that has free wifi." Exactly.
WalterSear 13y ago
In my experience, most coffee shops don't really have that much to offer if they take away the opportunity to sit somewhere pleasant and work. Coffee shops that actually serve good coffee tend to drive away people who want to sit quietly with their computers - they have too much business.
- dman 13y ago
  Noise cancelling headphones make this situation more nuanced.
marincounty 13y ago
Start to insult customers; they will leave, and remember. I used to buy crap at Costco. Since they changed their "100 percent satisfaction guarantee policy", I don't buy much anymore. I don't even think I will renew my card. The worst thing a company can do is assume their customers are parasites.
toyg 13y ago
This is why I 1) only hang around coffee shops with big seating areas, 2) pick the smallest table near a power plug, 3) try to buy something every two hours, be it water, coffee, sandwiches or muffins, to "simulate" turnaround as much as possible, and 4) evangelize for my local on G+, TripAdvisor etc. I'm probably a bit over-sensitive because I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour... which is probably why most cafes there never offered wifi in the first place.
- snogglethorpe 13y ago
  > I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour Of course, that would also be a perfectly reasonable solution. It has the big advantage of being straightforward, directly addressing the actual problem without inconveniencing non-campers), and letting the customer know what the issue is, and it seems much more likely to work than any of these technical tweaks... (after all, you can easily use a laptop without wifi in many cases, or with a cellular modem, and some campers aren't using a computer at all) Ideally they'd also apply such a policy thoughtfully, e.g., being more lax when the cafe is uncrowded, and letting you stay around longer if you were buying enough stuff. [After all, you're essentially renting space, and the appropriate price shifts up and down with demand] Around here they explicitly put up signs saying they may ask you to leave if it's crowded and you've been there for a long time, but I've never, ever, seen that policy actually applied (and some people, mainly students studying, sit there for ages and ages nursing small coffee). Personally, I'd also like it if they also gave one the option of straightforwardly renting space... sometimes I like to sit in a cafe, but don't really feel like drinking or eating anything...
- vickytnz 13y ago
  I wonder if this is an American issue. I'd like to think that in the UK we're taught to be polite and that sitting at a table for hours on a single coffee would be rude.
geekymartian 13y ago
First, who reads msn.com ? Second, in 2010 starbucks in NY required you to have a starbucks card to access wifi. That didn't work well and they gave wifi free again, so stay cool-- they know what is good for their business.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  As an ex-Senior PM for MSN.com, well, lots of people. When I worked there a couple of years ago, we were the fifth most visited website in the world, averaging 7,100 articles read per second. But hey, I realize it's not hipster-chic.
  - kalleboo 13y ago
    > we were the fifth most visited website in the world Isn't that just because it was the default site in IE for Windows XP?
    - FireBeyond 13y ago
      That doesn't account for the 7,100 articles -read-, not the home page visits.
bitwize 13y ago
I'd be more understanding of this sort of thing at Starbucks if the Starbucks locations near me weren't friendly to ACTUAL hobos. I've walked into SB and been hit with a wall of piss reek on more than one occasion.
- FireBeyond 13y ago
  Heaven forbid a business's policy to provide food and drink to the homeless interferes with and limits your "understanding"/acceptance of their not desiring you to spend the day using the Wifi whilst not spending money, probably whilst claiming that you benefit the business somehow by "creating atmosphere"...
boxysean 13y ago
A good non-technical solution to this problem is an intentionally slow/standard Internet connection, such as at my cafe of choice. For me, it is frustrating to be at this cafe at peak laptop hours and I think it causes people to churn in and out. So, I try to only use my laptop there when there are fewer laptop users at the cafe. I think this is a good psychological effect for the cafe to impart on its customers!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mikeash 13y ago
Am I the only person who just asks these places if it's cool for me to hang out with my computer for a few hours? Plenty of places welcome it.
beachstartup 13y ago
anecdata: i can't remember the last time i sat in a coffee shop just to chat for 20 minutes. i am in, and out, because EVERY single one is filled with laptop 'workers'. even the $15 exotic coffee place that looks like a meth lab is filled with hipsters on their laptops. i live in santa monica, this is definitely a recent phenomenon - i used to be able to walk into a bean or bux and grab a table for a few minutes, like... 3 years ago
- hugbox 13y ago
  It's the unfolding douchification of the bay area, led by goatse-grade assholes who describe coffee shops as "their offices" and want to sell you another local social mobile web 2.0 TODO list app.
abraham_s 13y ago
How about coffee shops offering to rent out a table for n hours for x dollars? It might be weird but I would like a option to pay for the facilities without having a coffee every two hours.
exhaze 13y ago
Mishka's Coffee in Davis, CA has an interesting approach to this. They have a small dedicated section at the front of the cafe that is reserved for [1] "the original, intended way [of using a cafe]". You're only allowed to read a newspaper or hang out and chat in this section. [1] http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&target=therule.jpg http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&ta...
- kroger 13y ago
  And what is the difference between spending x hours reading the news paper and the same x hours working on a laptop?
  - noptic 13y ago
    There is none. If you sit arround for 3 hours with 1 cup of coffee your an <insert rude stuff here> no matter what you are doing.
    - kroger 13y ago
      That's way banning laptops per se is silly.
      - noptic 13y ago
        True. Do not ban laptops. Kick idiots.
- mabhatter 13y ago
  That's an entirely reasonable way to handle it. Simply designate a certain amount of tables off-limits to using for "work". Then the coffee shop stops losing business when somebody just wants to DEPRINK COFFEE for twenty minutes.
Ellipsis753 13y ago
I honestly have no problem with this. If a shop feels the need to enforce limits then that's fine and is up to them. If I go to a shop and there are frequently no seats for whatever reason I will stop going there. If I need wifi for something and a shop doesn't offer it then I won't go there either. It's up to the coffee shop to decides how best to balance this for themselves. There are plenty of other coffee shops and I will go to the one that normally has space and has wifi and good coffee if at all possible. If I'm ever at a coffee shop too long then a worker there can ask me to leave. I will happily pay my bill and leave. However I will likely never return to that coffee shop. This is up to the shop, if they need the seat more than my custom then I honestly have nothing against them and as I said, there are many more shops. (I have never actually been asked to leave a coffee shop however.)
adamconroy 13y ago
Not dissimilar to the old days where chess player hobos took up all the space. Hang around for hours, buy one coffee, drag the image down.
bane 13y ago
I feel like I should probably buy a cup of something every half hour to an hour when I sit there. Nothing irks me more than looking for a seat to drink and surf a bit then tables full of people who don't even have a drink but are just using it as a public free wifi office (lots and lots and lots of salesmen). Putting codes on receipts that die after a half hour or so is the best possible solution to me.
tommaxwell 13y ago
At least for me, no wifi = no business from me for the coffee shop.
ok_craig 13y ago
Sounds like a great opportunity for someone to create a new coffee shop chain specifically centered around the idea of seating people with laptops for a long time. Actually I'm not sure why this hasn't happened yet.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- haldujai 13y ago
  Because you won't make any money. If you have 20 * 2 seater tables you're looking at: $60-80 coffee per 4 hours - x * $40 for four hours of a barista(s) - employee overhead - electricity - internet usage - business overhead - rent = < $0 Rent is the limiting factor in this model, you want to be in a high traffic area to get those customers but not have to pay ridiculous rent and still have a decently sized store. Not going to happen.
  - ok_craig 13y ago
    Aren't those issues accounted for by simply charging more?
    - haldujai 13y ago
      Then: A) people will just go to the multitude of coffee houses that still offer unlimited WiFi And B) you're no longer a coffee house, you're an Internet cafe / temporary office space offering coffee. Big difference.
      - ok_craig 13y ago
        Internet cafes tend to be boring white boxes without food or drink, the walls lined with five year old crumbling windows PCs. It seems like there is a middle ground which has not been explored, which is simply a more expensive coffee shop with more space, where you are allowed/expected to stay for long periods of time. I would pay for that. You can call that an internet cafe if you want, but it wouldn't really be like any I've been to.
A__MJ 13y ago
As someone who works remotely a lot - I hate working at my apartment, so I usually coffee shop-hop when I'm getting things done. I like being around people, and a lot of the times I'll meet up with a friend and cowork, catch up, etc. So, open question: What are good alternatives? (in SF) -The libraries are full of actual hobos (i.e. they smell like piss) -I researched coworking spaces awhile ago and most required an exorbitant subscription/startup/VC funding. Wix was awesome but then they pivoted into something else. -Noisebridge is great for side projects and hanging out but I don't bring my professional work there. Ideas?
- bdcravens 13y ago
  I think you need to challenge the idea that remotely working means that someone out there is supposed to accomodate you.
hgcheah 13y ago
IMHO this is one of the many signs that soon there will be a new kind of coffee shop that emphasizes more on the social space rather than on coffee. What people like us are looking for is not a cup of freshly-brewed black coffee (although that definitely adds to it) but a social space with stable & fast internet. Something that is a crossover of a coffee shop and an open workspace.
racl101 13y ago
I could do without these people in coffee shops. Nothing more dull than walking into a coffee shop and seeing a bunch of drones buried in their Apple Laptops for hours. I'd rather see people talking and socializing. Those folks might as well be in their homes doing their thing or at least cap the experience by requiring them to buy a coffee every so often or limiting their wifi experience.
makhanko 13y ago
Why hasn't anybody figured out to put a reasonable time limit on each device Mac address? 1 hour since you first log in should be enough to satisfy 90% of customers and discourage the 10% hogging seats. Its like saying - you are limited to 5 refills and being able to enforce it discretely. Who would object to that other than those taking advantage?
- unsignedint 13y ago
  I think the reason is because that really didn't work for some reason. Starbucks experimented that idea for a while. (I think it was something like 3 hours for buying a something using registered card, and that then they decided to open it up...) My personal opinion about MAC address filtering though, if they become the norm, everyone will start using a piece of software that changes MAC address periodically... (As it's already trivial to change your MAC address...)
sologoub 13y ago
The one thing that still fascinates me is the thought that somehow lack of wifi and electric outlets will drive people away. Sure, it might work for a short while if there are suitable alternatives near by, but once those alternatives follow suit, people that rely on coffee shops for a place to work will simply resort to air cards/phone tethering. A typical MacBook Pro will last you 6-7 hours with screen at low brightness. Newer Airs do even better. Ditto for iPads, etc. Plus many of tablets/netbooks come with a built-in LTE service. A more sustainable solution would seem to be better equipped spaces. Someone kept going off on people taking tables that would seat two-four others. While the comments themselves illicit no sympathy from me (especially about spending 10x), there is a good point made that if we developed etiquete of providing and using laptop-specific seating, it would ease some of the congestion. Just a thought...
BWStearns 13y ago
I work in an office where I frequently lose internet (thanks Comcast!) during the middle of time sensitive projects, so I have definitely camped out for several hours in a Starbucks while crashing on some issue or another. However, given that I buy more than 1 coffee per hour, I don't see the damage. Also, last time I had to crash land at the Starbucks I went to the restroom to find my seat snagged by an actual hobo (title reminded me), so I went to the bar that offered free wifi instead.
unsignedint 13y ago
As for Starbucks, my local one (it's one of few bigger "reserve" store) had this problem before they renovated. When they renovated the store, they changed it so they have "bar" desk facing the two sides of the store facing the window with plenty (pretty much every seat) and also some in the very middle section of the seat. What I have been observing is that people who need power for their laptop tend one of those seat -- while some people do use laptop in other seats, they are more transient. Of course given this is all given there are enough space to do this type of arrangement, but sometimes these approach of actually manipulating behavior rather than being prohibitive is one approach those places can take.
amerika 13y ago
Free wi-fi? Free power? SOCIALISM!
mountaineer 13y ago
Is it just me or are coffee shops turning up the music too? I'm having a hard time finding a coffee shop where I can have a skype or phone call. Loud music and/or noise is one way to discourage long-term telecommuters who need to stay in touch.
shalmanese 13y ago
A German Coffee shop is innovating with a new model where the coffee is free but you are charged for the time you spend: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-germany_n_3345531.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-germ... This seems like an interesting way to keep the incentives more aligned. Personally, I wish there was a more socially acceptable way to just rent space at a coffee shop. I don't drink caffeine and I often need to find a place to crash for 2 hours which means either I buy a high calorie pastry/juice that I don't really need to be eating or I feel like an asshole the entire time I'm there. It'd be far easier for me if I could just drop $4 in a jar and have that cover my time.
- thomaspaine 13y ago
  What's wrong with the library?
  - autodidakto 13y ago
    ssssh! ...We're closing.
- danabramov 13y ago
  A Russian cafe Ziferblat has been doing just that in Russia for two years already. The model was pioneered by a very passionate and modest guy called Vanya Mitin. Actually, the article mentions it: >Owner Daria Volkova, 24, was inspired by similar cafes in Russia, where she is originally from. I don't want to sound mean; it's just that Vanya Mitin did really exciting things here and a lot of copycats used his model (which is of course how market works). Kudos to Daria for mentioning where the idea comes from.
- epsylon 13y ago
  What you need is a Bring Your Own Computer Internet café. 10 years ago, I hanged out a lot in internet cafés, and loved it. There was definitely something cool about it: hanging out with tech-savvy people, using beastly machines on powerful internet connections, exploring the exponentially exploding internet, playing games, ... It was a very social experience, and I befriended a few other regulars there. I do miss the ambiance of these cafés, and I wish that laptops, better internet connections (the days of 56k are long gone) and ubiquitous free WiFi hadn't killed that kind of business. There's potential for a revival of internet cafés, though. Good Wifi, preinstalled docks for common laptops, smartly arranged space (to avoid spilling coffee on your precious laptop because you accidentally pulled a cable !) and a different pricing model, you could attract easily the horde of Starbucks and McDonald's "laptop hobos"...
hekker 13y ago
A simple solution to this problem would be to replace the seating in the coffee shop with less comfortable ones. A while ago I had to work from a coffee shop for one day and while the chair I was sitting on was comfortable for 3 to 4 hours, my back and arms really started to ache after that time. The next day I still felt it. This would solve the problem: regular laptop hobo's will not use your shop because it will not be comfortable to work there, while customers that are there to socialize are there for a short amount of time anyway.
pjbrunet 13y ago
Newer laptops have 6+ hour batteries. Not having a power outlet won't deter anyone in the future. Also, if you have Clear or tethering you don't need WIFI to get online. I have Clear and it's been fun to find new places to work. (I just wish Clear had better coverage maps.) So why be a "hobo" at one location when you can work at several locations? As far as limited space, this is not really an issue unless you live in a big city. If you're in NYC, you're elbow to elbow like sardines all day long everywhere you go, is this really news to anyone? If you don't like it, move somewhere less crowded.
wybo 13y ago
Not in defence of laptop hobos, but the following is bs: > "For centuries cafes have been places where people go to meet, trade gossip, network and otherwise come together informally, and some coffee shops are trying to encourage that social interaction again by taking action against the laptop hobos." Anyone who has done a bit of history (or can find WP) knows that coffee-houses and pubs used to be places where people used to read, work, play games, and hang out for hours on end, whole days or evenings; every evening. Why? Because it saved money on not having to heat ones own living-room in winter... Using a bit of electricity on top seems relatively minor in comparison... (though a shift in the relative price of space and drinks/food likely explains the current issues...)
mgraczyk 13y ago
It's interesting to notice the attitudes of the individual shop owners and how they appear to have changed over time. It used to be the case that coffee shops wanted to attract the quiet techie types, clacking away at their laptops and sipping on lattes while checking email, watching videos, working, building the next facebook... whatever. It didn't matter, as long as the ambiance reflected that progressive hopefulness that a quiet 20/30-something on a laptop used to project. "Used to project," being the key phrase there. It seems that based on the attitudes of coffee shop owners, we're entering a post-internet era. Are people finally starting to again realize (as they once did in the early 90s) that being antisocial in public is simply not cool? I tend to think we've evolved with understanding as a basic part of our subconscious. We see a person engaged in antisocial behavior in a public places, and we tend to think less of that person. It would seem that our innate beliefs are once again rising to prominence.
vickytnz 13y ago
As someone who occasionally does spend a few hours in a cafe writing (I'm doing my PhD and it stops me going mad), what's the fair payoff? Sit at a small table and buy a decent coffee (i.e. a latte rather than a cheap filter coffee) every two hours?
ratsimihah 13y ago
> Some shops say they've had enough. They're either laying down customer rules for Wi-Fi use or eliminating it at certain hours -- or even altogether -- while blocking their wall outlets. Portable hotspot all-day batteries (e.g: Macbook Air's) are two examples of bypassing such restrictions. Forbidding the use of laptops sounds more convincing. But that should be enough to trigger some sort of segregation anyway. Not a slick move.
hatu 13y ago
In Berlin there's St. Oberholz: http://www.sanktoberholz.de/ http://www.sanktoberholz.de/ which has really embraced the people using it as an office. Feels like a very welcoming place when you have to get some work done and you won't bother "normal" people since everyone knows what the place is about. They even have added a better co-work space with more office services like snail mail, scanner, printers, conference rooms etc.
ck425 13y ago
Coffee shops have traditionally also been places to read or write, why is using a laptop that different? For those who have complained about laptoppers taking up two person seats a) Most cafes I've been to have had few one person seats and b) most laptops with a coffee take up the space of a two person table.
daniel-cussen 13y ago
From a business point of view, this is so bad that coffee shops should not only not have Wifi altogether, but have jammers.

123 points by Irishsteve 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

zalew 13y ago
for me it doesn't
drmr 13y ago
I'm also unable to view the article because of this.
TheCapn 13y ago
Hmm I didn't need one. here's a direct cut/paste of the article for you: http://pastebin.com/y4LcHVAx http://pastebin.com/y4LcHVAx

TheCapn 13y ago

Such a weird topic to me. Wifi as a free service became popular as a way to attract people to establishments but the side effect is they get leeches. So at this point they want to reduce them, some taking steps far enough to remove the wifi. But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? Knee jerk reaction to a fad? Maybe it helped them grow in the first place? I think any service, free or paid needs some sort of regulation from those who will take advantage of it. Having rules which state you need to be paying a customer and limit your stay to 30 minutes or whatever per order is probably the absolute maximum you require since its privately owned property. Having the rule covers your ass when you need it but doesn't require you to enforce it when traffic is slower.

coldtea 13y ago
>But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? There's this concept of "moderation" and things going over some limit etc. That they added something (free wi-fi) to lure customers, does not mean they also want people taking it's use to an extreme (forgetting about the coffee, etc). Similarly, that I needed a friend and made friends with some guy doesn't mean I would appreciate seeing him 24/7 around my place.
- showerst 13y ago
  I think this might also be something technology could solve. Hosted wifi networks always seem awful, If there was some way to super easily enforce a bandwidth and per-device time limit to discourage squatters without making the network impossible to use, that would be great.

BudVVeezer 13y ago

As a telecommuter, I recognize when I go work from a coffee shop that I am using their resources. But that's why I 1) buy stuff while I'm there, and 2) tell all of my friends what a great place it is. If one of my local shops pulled this on me, they'd not only lose my business, but that of friends when I tell them about the experience. Perhaps this isn't a big concern (I'm not particularly important, after all). But if it happens with enough customers, it could be bad for business in a more broad sense.

zalew 13y ago
People that don't like being surrounded by laptops will take your and your friends' place. No worries, cafes without wifi work just fine.
- BudVVeezer 13y ago
  Perhaps in busier cities, but since I live in central Maine, that's not necessarily the case.
- staunch 13y ago
  Exactly, catering to the the growing logizomechanophobic segment is so hot right now.
  - m_ram 13y ago
    logizomechanophobic Wow, what a word! http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechanophobia http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechan...
maximumsteve 13y ago
I'm alienated from coffee shops because of laptop users. I'm around electronics all day. When I go to the cafe, I want a break with a cup of coffee with a friend. I don't want to see one person hogging a table for four, or overhear business phone calls and headphones. I'm not saying that I'm important either, but these are the reasons why I will choose one cafe over another.

jbail 13y ago

Is this really a serious problem? Anecdotally, 9 out of 10 visits to a coffee shop, I just get coffee and leave. 1 out of 10, I am meeting someone, usually to go over some business. In the 21st century, this typically requires Internet connectivity. Not offering WiFi or putting time limits on it would make me feel unwelcome. Feeling unwelcome will make me not want to patronize said coffee shop the other 9 out of 10 times. What's the secret sauce that makes Starbucks so successful? They made it a comfy place to hang out...the "3rd place" between home and work where you can go and feel welcomed. Schultz is always talking about it. Obviously, Starbucks is one data point, but I think there's something to it.

MWil 13y ago
my local starbucks is always freezing which makes me want to leave even if i meant to stay
- evanspa 13y ago
  So is the one by me. When I asked the barista why, she said it helps keeps the fruit-flies away from the bakery items. I just bring a sweatshirt with me when I go.
  - textminer 13y ago
    She was being homophobic. :\
    - perishabledave 13y ago
      Really? This seems like a logical answer if taken literally.
    - pekk 13y ago
      I don't think cold affects gay people more than straight people, so probably not.
      - 13y ago

MWil 13y ago

You can tell a good coffeeshop by the ambient temperature they maintain. If you're cold, they want you to get it and go. I'm lucky to have a coffeshop/arcade nearby. The owner wants you to stay, hang out, play games, read some comics. Sometimes I've gotten 3 drinks and food throughout the day. It's not a great study/work location especially when you get distracted watching someone else play a new game on the projection screen but the ample seating means no one walks in and goes "oh...well, guess I'm getting it to go"

antitrust 13y ago

That's a bummer. I like the ability to go hang out at a coffee shop on off hours, do a little work and a little websurfing while I down a cache of caffeine. However, I have seen some of the true hobos who are using it as an office, and taking up more than their share of space. It even happens at restaurants that will let you order only a coffee. We seem to have a lack of public spaces in the USA. At least, public spaces that have wi-fi and power outlets which you don't have to rent by the hour.

princess3000 13y ago

Seems like there might be an opportunity for something in the middle ground between neighborhood coffee shop and full-on coworking space.

Avshalom 13y ago
Libraries.
- superuser2 13y ago
  Silence + no food allows creates a very different space from a cafe. It has value also, but it's not remotely the same thing.
  - EvanKelly 13y ago
    I've written to my local library organization suggesting cafe areas in some of the bigger libraries. Never heard back, but I really hope they think about it. It could raise some money and improve patronage. The local library is much more convenient for me than the coffee shop, but I need to be eating/drinking when I'm working on something.
  - uxp 13y ago
    If you're near a University, check out their library. Most of the time they'll have a cafe, guest wifi, and a reasonable amount of white noise for a library.
    - ben1040 13y ago
      Yep. I live a mile and a half away from a university and I use their library for working on side projects. I've found it to be a great place for helping me focus. Years of schooling have programmed me to think that the library is where you go to be serious about getting work done, and I'm often more effective there than if I sit at my desk at home.
  - kroger 13y ago
    I was surprised when I found that the library close to my place in London (at Swiss Cottage) has a cafe inside and seems to have a relax policy on eating snacks inside the library.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

This doesn't surprise me. I recently read a thread (could have been on HN but I'm not positive) and I was surprised at the number of people that think it's fine to spend a few dollars on a cup of coffee and then take up a seat and use the free wifi for 8 hours. Most coffee shops (excluding the higher priced places like Starbucks) rely on a high turnover of customers to make a decent profit. There is quite a high markup on coffee but as it's usually so cheap ($1-3) they need to serve a lot of customers. In my experience coffee shops also tend to be quite small and finding a seat is difficult. When I see a place like this I usually go somewhere else. I can understand why they get annoyed at 'laptop hobos'. If you're going to take over a seat in the coffee shop for a day at least buy something every couple of hours.

rhizome 13y ago
Textbook "Tragedy of the Commons" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
cookingrobot 13y ago
The obvious answer (to me) is for libraries to sell coffee.
larsonf 13y ago
I have been wondering for a long time why Starbucks and other coffee shops don't simply charge for wifi. 5 USD/3 hours seems like an absolutely great deal. Whenever I do work at Starbucks it's very productive and would be happy to pay for the right to be there. In fact, I wish there were a way to pay for the wifi so I didn't feel this guilt of whether to buy more items. The people who aren't happy to pay for being there are the ones you don't want. Get this: There's a Starbucks near where I live that literally has a homeless guy in the same chair every day with a laptop. Guess how long he's been doing it? 3 years! It's insane. Have people pay, charge as much as the market will bear, problem solved. How are we even talking about this?

nickpinkston 13y ago

Visit San Francisco's 'Coffee Bar' in the Mission to see a place the eeks out every drop of profit with many kinds of seating and various rules over time for some areas. Always packed and people learn the rules quickly. Lots a good nudging going on.

mindstab 13y ago

Could almost make a case for a "tragedy of the commons" situation here. Common resources of seats and wifi. Most people treat them reasonably using the seats for social interaction and the internet for meeting resources perhaps, but some people having no reason not to leech onto it and over use it then causing the aforementioned problems ruining it forever one with blanket bans and plug power slots. As per usual moderation is probably the key. Around here lots of places give out wifi for 2 hour per drink. At least they keep you buying if you are going to sit and take up space and wifi. Seemed pretty fair to me. Most casual cases and meetings are well with in 2 hours so more cases are covered and the hobos get the boot or are forced to pay.

Zikes 13y ago

Obviously there are two sides to this coin, and that calls for two solutions. Some coffee shops can certainly adopt this and similar policies to cater to customers that would prefer not to be around people tapping away on their keyboards, while other coffee shops can become the new haven for those people. I think it's a fair solution, and it reminds me of how some restaurants will adopt policies to ban children from the premises for similar reasons.

enraged_camel 13y ago

A lot of people don't understand that WiFi service at coffee shops is provided as a courtesy, and as a result they tend to take it for granted. I know people who, after buying their first drink (the absolute cheapest one on the menu) sit at a table for hours at a time and use the Internet. Fundamentally, I think this behavior is unethical and I'm fully behind coffee shop owners who take measures to discourage it. The best one I've seen is the method where your receipt includes a WiFi code that is good for two hours after activation. That is plenty of time to get work done, and afterward if you want to continue working then you go buy another drink.

toyg 13y ago
Even better: have the code last longer depending on the amount you spend. Buying a high-margin drink? Have 3 hours on the house! Grabbing the cheapest option on the board? Sorry pal, it's 30 mins for you. There's a business model there, I think. (The only problem for me is that I hate hate hate wifi portals. They all suck.)
- mjn 13y ago
  A coffee shop I used to frequent [1] tried to take a "soft" approach to that, by having a sign near the electric outlets under the tables, asking patrons who were going to stay longer on their laptops to spend at least $n/hr (I don't remember what $n was). So people who didn't use the outlets didn't get bothered, and those who did got some guilt pressure to either buy things or not stay all day. I don't have any inside information on how well it worked, though. And this was a few years ago, so maybe that particular trick wouldn't work as well in these days of 10-hour MacBook Air batteries. From chatting with a few managers in the Santa Cruz area (not sure how representative a market it is), they didn't want to actually drive away the laptop crowd, because that provided the majority of their business for much of the day. To some extent they wanted to be a coworking type of space, because there's no other way to fill up a coffee shop in Santa Cruz or Capitola at 11am on a Tuesday in November. They just wanted the laptoppers to either keep buying stuff periodically, or else keep their visits somewhat reasonable (i.e. not 8 hours on one coffee). A different place I used to work at [2] actually liked me staying around all day, whether I bought something or not, on days when it was mostly empty, because it helped give the impression that the place wasn't deserted. They did most of their turnover on tourists, though, so there was sort of an informal agreement that laptopping regulars should move along when the place was full (mostly weekends or summer afternoon/evenings). [1] http://www.cafeugly.com http://www.cafeugly.com [2] http://www.mrtootscoffee.com/ http://www.mrtootscoffee.com/

epoxyhockey 13y ago

The Grove on Fillmore St in SF has a goodbye to wifi sign near the entrance that I just noticed a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was pretty interesting. I, personally don't mind the wifi'ers at Starbucks or Panera, but my main comment is that the seating plans of these shops are not setup for solo workers. One visit to Starbucks had a slew of wifi workers sitting at 2-person tables. I couldn't help but think that the shop was a 1/2 occupancy just due to the seating plan. It's definitely an interesting problem. Everyone has laptops, and coffee shops seemingly are not hurting for patrons anymore.

thufry 13y ago

WiFi is a decreasingly relevant weapon as more people have more devices with faster 4G connectivity. They'll need to start outright bans.

vinceguidry 13y ago
I've noticed that there are two types of laptoppers that frequent coffee shops, the "well-heeled" and the "hobos". The former are social, interesting, always buy drinks/food. They may stay for a long time, but they typically add to the atmosphere rather than detract from it. The only thing that really bugs them is when the Internet is spotty or really slow. Then there's the other sort, the "hobos." They bring a ton of crap, (I saw one guy haul a fricken printer into a Starbucks) it's even chances on whether they'll order something or not, get angry at the drop of a hat, and you get the distinct feeling like they don't have / can't afford Internet at home. The thing about the latter is, they tend to have older laptops whose batteries can't hold a charge. Guaranteed they won't have 4G devices. So removing the power outlets is probably the easiest and best solution to the problem. You'll keep the good sort from being able to stay all day, but if the problem is really that bad, the well-heeled wouldn't want to stay anyway due to the atmosphere being created by the hobos.

darkarmani 13y ago

All of the comments on the msn page, seem very self-righteous. If only there was a way to monitor bandwidth per attached wifi device and slowly limit it for devices attached for a very long time. Why can't they do something like this using a $50 WRT54G and the Tomato firmware? Just turn the QoS setting on and put everyone in a very low bandwidth class. You don't need a perfect solution (like giving 50MB per coffee).

joezydeco 13y ago
Then it becomes an arms war with people installing MAC-spoofing widgets on their systems. People will always find a way to cheat the system.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  I don't think the system collapses if 5% of the people cheat the system. The problem is that 50% of the space is taking up by leachers. The enemy of the good is this perfection you are looking for.
bluedino 13y ago
Any QoS would be a big help. A lot of the shops only have what appears to be a T1 connection and once you get someone streaming video, it can ruin it for everyone else. Don't stream or download huge files, be courteous.

ripter 13y ago

It always seemed to me like leachers are something that shops should deal with on a customer by customer basises. But I can understand why they want rules from corporate. It can be very hard for a barista to tell someone to leave (or even kick them out) but let another person stay. I know several Starbucks where people will spend 8+ hours sitting there with their laptop. There was even one guy that would be there from open to close 4-5 times a week! Some of these people would get agressive about which table was "theirs" or which outlet they used. (one guy was from another country and his power adaptor blocked the second outlet.) Blocking the power outlets help, but a good MacBook will last 4-8 hours anyway. I'd hate to see the free wifi disappear because of a few bad apples.

dman 13y ago
Tragedy of the commons.
anotherevan 13y ago
Bring your own power board and be a hero to all your fellow hobos. :-)

D9u 13y ago

I've never been a coffee drinker, so I'd sometimes park where I can pick up a signal, using my vehicle as a power source, but since I got a "4G" mobile hotspot I no longer use free wifi and I have the option of smoking while in the confines of my automobile as well as a change of scenery as the situation permits.

anotherevan 13y ago
You should check out Geek My Ride. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80 He claims to have the fastest web server on the planet. It'll do about 160km/hour.
FireBeyond 13y ago
And all the while using a resource that the actual customers pay for. Although I'm sure next will come the claims that an open Wifi network, rather than a mere administrative convenience, is an "invitation".
bdcravens 13y ago
I occasionally go to a local Starbucks and work (especially if I'm out and about and can't make it back home between errands). Wifi is usually pretty bad, and I prefer to tether 99% of the time.

dkrich 13y ago

Fairly simple solution- try selling Gogo-style wifi to customers? That way people who are using the wifi the most will be paying their share. Counterargument: "I'd just go to a place that has free wifi." Exactly.

WalterSear 13y ago

In my experience, most coffee shops don't really have that much to offer if they take away the opportunity to sit somewhere pleasant and work. Coffee shops that actually serve good coffee tend to drive away people who want to sit quietly with their computers - they have too much business.

dman 13y ago
Noise cancelling headphones make this situation more nuanced.

marincounty 13y ago

Start to insult customers; they will leave, and remember. I used to buy crap at Costco. Since they changed their "100 percent satisfaction guarantee policy", I don't buy much anymore. I don't even think I will renew my card. The worst thing a company can do is assume their customers are parasites.

toyg 13y ago

This is why I 1) only hang around coffee shops with big seating areas, 2) pick the smallest table near a power plug, 3) try to buy something every two hours, be it water, coffee, sandwiches or muffins, to "simulate" turnaround as much as possible, and 4) evangelize for my local on G+, TripAdvisor etc. I'm probably a bit over-sensitive because I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour... which is probably why most cafes there never offered wifi in the first place.

snogglethorpe 13y ago
> I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour Of course, that would also be a perfectly reasonable solution. It has the big advantage of being straightforward, directly addressing the actual problem without inconveniencing non-campers), and letting the customer know what the issue is, and it seems much more likely to work than any of these technical tweaks... (after all, you can easily use a laptop without wifi in many cases, or with a cellular modem, and some campers aren't using a computer at all) Ideally they'd also apply such a policy thoughtfully, e.g., being more lax when the cafe is uncrowded, and letting you stay around longer if you were buying enough stuff. [After all, you're essentially renting space, and the appropriate price shifts up and down with demand] Around here they explicitly put up signs saying they may ask you to leave if it's crowded and you've been there for a long time, but I've never, ever, seen that policy actually applied (and some people, mainly students studying, sit there for ages and ages nursing small coffee). Personally, I'd also like it if they also gave one the option of straightforwardly renting space... sometimes I like to sit in a cafe, but don't really feel like drinking or eating anything...
vickytnz 13y ago
I wonder if this is an American issue. I'd like to think that in the UK we're taught to be polite and that sitting at a table for hours on a single coffee would be rude.

geekymartian 13y ago

First, who reads msn.com ? Second, in 2010 starbucks in NY required you to have a starbucks card to access wifi. That didn't work well and they gave wifi free again, so stay cool-- they know what is good for their business.

FireBeyond 13y ago
As an ex-Senior PM for MSN.com, well, lots of people. When I worked there a couple of years ago, we were the fifth most visited website in the world, averaging 7,100 articles read per second. But hey, I realize it's not hipster-chic.
- kalleboo 13y ago
  > we were the fifth most visited website in the world Isn't that just because it was the default site in IE for Windows XP?
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    That doesn't account for the 7,100 articles -read-, not the home page visits.

bitwize 13y ago

I'd be more understanding of this sort of thing at Starbucks if the Starbucks locations near me weren't friendly to ACTUAL hobos. I've walked into SB and been hit with a wall of piss reek on more than one occasion.

FireBeyond 13y ago
Heaven forbid a business's policy to provide food and drink to the homeless interferes with and limits your "understanding"/acceptance of their not desiring you to spend the day using the Wifi whilst not spending money, probably whilst claiming that you benefit the business somehow by "creating atmosphere"...

boxysean 13y ago

A good non-technical solution to this problem is an intentionally slow/standard Internet connection, such as at my cafe of choice. For me, it is frustrating to be at this cafe at peak laptop hours and I think it causes people to churn in and out. So, I try to only use my laptop there when there are fewer laptop users at the cafe. I think this is a good psychological effect for the cafe to impart on its customers!

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mikeash 13y ago

Am I the only person who just asks these places if it's cool for me to hang out with my computer for a few hours? Plenty of places welcome it.

beachstartup 13y ago

anecdata: i can't remember the last time i sat in a coffee shop just to chat for 20 minutes. i am in, and out, because EVERY single one is filled with laptop 'workers'. even the $15 exotic coffee place that looks like a meth lab is filled with hipsters on their laptops. i live in santa monica, this is definitely a recent phenomenon - i used to be able to walk into a bean or bux and grab a table for a few minutes, like... 3 years ago

hugbox 13y ago
It's the unfolding douchification of the bay area, led by goatse-grade assholes who describe coffee shops as "their offices" and want to sell you another local social mobile web 2.0 TODO list app.

abraham_s 13y ago

How about coffee shops offering to rent out a table for n hours for x dollars? It might be weird but I would like a option to pay for the facilities without having a coffee every two hours.

exhaze 13y ago

Mishka's Coffee in Davis, CA has an interesting approach to this. They have a small dedicated section at the front of the cafe that is reserved for [1] "the original, intended way [of using a cafe]". You're only allowed to read a newspaper or hang out and chat in this section. [1] http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&target=therule.jpg http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&ta...

kroger 13y ago
And what is the difference between spending x hours reading the news paper and the same x hours working on a laptop?
- noptic 13y ago
  There is none. If you sit arround for 3 hours with 1 cup of coffee your an <insert rude stuff here> no matter what you are doing.
  - kroger 13y ago
    That's way banning laptops per se is silly.
    - noptic 13y ago
      True. Do not ban laptops. Kick idiots.
mabhatter 13y ago
That's an entirely reasonable way to handle it. Simply designate a certain amount of tables off-limits to using for "work". Then the coffee shop stops losing business when somebody just wants to DEPRINK COFFEE for twenty minutes.

Ellipsis753 13y ago

I honestly have no problem with this. If a shop feels the need to enforce limits then that's fine and is up to them. If I go to a shop and there are frequently no seats for whatever reason I will stop going there. If I need wifi for something and a shop doesn't offer it then I won't go there either. It's up to the coffee shop to decides how best to balance this for themselves. There are plenty of other coffee shops and I will go to the one that normally has space and has wifi and good coffee if at all possible. If I'm ever at a coffee shop too long then a worker there can ask me to leave. I will happily pay my bill and leave. However I will likely never return to that coffee shop. This is up to the shop, if they need the seat more than my custom then I honestly have nothing against them and as I said, there are many more shops. (I have never actually been asked to leave a coffee shop however.)

adamconroy 13y ago

Not dissimilar to the old days where chess player hobos took up all the space. Hang around for hours, buy one coffee, drag the image down.

bane 13y ago

I feel like I should probably buy a cup of something every half hour to an hour when I sit there. Nothing irks me more than looking for a seat to drink and surf a bit then tables full of people who don't even have a drink but are just using it as a public free wifi office (lots and lots and lots of salesmen). Putting codes on receipts that die after a half hour or so is the best possible solution to me.

tommaxwell 13y ago

At least for me, no wifi = no business from me for the coffee shop.

ok_craig 13y ago

Sounds like a great opportunity for someone to create a new coffee shop chain specifically centered around the idea of seating people with laptops for a long time. Actually I'm not sure why this hasn't happened yet.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
haldujai 13y ago
Because you won't make any money. If you have 20 * 2 seater tables you're looking at: $60-80 coffee per 4 hours - x * $40 for four hours of a barista(s) - employee overhead - electricity - internet usage - business overhead - rent = < $0 Rent is the limiting factor in this model, you want to be in a high traffic area to get those customers but not have to pay ridiculous rent and still have a decently sized store. Not going to happen.
- ok_craig 13y ago
  Aren't those issues accounted for by simply charging more?
  - haldujai 13y ago
    Then: A) people will just go to the multitude of coffee houses that still offer unlimited WiFi And B) you're no longer a coffee house, you're an Internet cafe / temporary office space offering coffee. Big difference.
    - ok_craig 13y ago
      Internet cafes tend to be boring white boxes without food or drink, the walls lined with five year old crumbling windows PCs. It seems like there is a middle ground which has not been explored, which is simply a more expensive coffee shop with more space, where you are allowed/expected to stay for long periods of time. I would pay for that. You can call that an internet cafe if you want, but it wouldn't really be like any I've been to.

A__MJ 13y ago

As someone who works remotely a lot - I hate working at my apartment, so I usually coffee shop-hop when I'm getting things done. I like being around people, and a lot of the times I'll meet up with a friend and cowork, catch up, etc. So, open question: What are good alternatives? (in SF) -The libraries are full of actual hobos (i.e. they smell like piss) -I researched coworking spaces awhile ago and most required an exorbitant subscription/startup/VC funding. Wix was awesome but then they pivoted into something else. -Noisebridge is great for side projects and hanging out but I don't bring my professional work there. Ideas?

bdcravens 13y ago
I think you need to challenge the idea that remotely working means that someone out there is supposed to accomodate you.

hgcheah 13y ago

IMHO this is one of the many signs that soon there will be a new kind of coffee shop that emphasizes more on the social space rather than on coffee. What people like us are looking for is not a cup of freshly-brewed black coffee (although that definitely adds to it) but a social space with stable & fast internet. Something that is a crossover of a coffee shop and an open workspace.

racl101 13y ago

I could do without these people in coffee shops. Nothing more dull than walking into a coffee shop and seeing a bunch of drones buried in their Apple Laptops for hours. I'd rather see people talking and socializing. Those folks might as well be in their homes doing their thing or at least cap the experience by requiring them to buy a coffee every so often or limiting their wifi experience.

makhanko 13y ago

Why hasn't anybody figured out to put a reasonable time limit on each device Mac address? 1 hour since you first log in should be enough to satisfy 90% of customers and discourage the 10% hogging seats. Its like saying - you are limited to 5 refills and being able to enforce it discretely. Who would object to that other than those taking advantage?

unsignedint 13y ago
I think the reason is because that really didn't work for some reason. Starbucks experimented that idea for a while. (I think it was something like 3 hours for buying a something using registered card, and that then they decided to open it up...) My personal opinion about MAC address filtering though, if they become the norm, everyone will start using a piece of software that changes MAC address periodically... (As it's already trivial to change your MAC address...)

sologoub 13y ago

The one thing that still fascinates me is the thought that somehow lack of wifi and electric outlets will drive people away. Sure, it might work for a short while if there are suitable alternatives near by, but once those alternatives follow suit, people that rely on coffee shops for a place to work will simply resort to air cards/phone tethering. A typical MacBook Pro will last you 6-7 hours with screen at low brightness. Newer Airs do even better. Ditto for iPads, etc. Plus many of tablets/netbooks come with a built-in LTE service. A more sustainable solution would seem to be better equipped spaces. Someone kept going off on people taking tables that would seat two-four others. While the comments themselves illicit no sympathy from me (especially about spending 10x), there is a good point made that if we developed etiquete of providing and using laptop-specific seating, it would ease some of the congestion. Just a thought...

BWStearns 13y ago

I work in an office where I frequently lose internet (thanks Comcast!) during the middle of time sensitive projects, so I have definitely camped out for several hours in a Starbucks while crashing on some issue or another. However, given that I buy more than 1 coffee per hour, I don't see the damage. Also, last time I had to crash land at the Starbucks I went to the restroom to find my seat snagged by an actual hobo (title reminded me), so I went to the bar that offered free wifi instead.

unsignedint 13y ago

As for Starbucks, my local one (it's one of few bigger "reserve" store) had this problem before they renovated. When they renovated the store, they changed it so they have "bar" desk facing the two sides of the store facing the window with plenty (pretty much every seat) and also some in the very middle section of the seat. What I have been observing is that people who need power for their laptop tend one of those seat -- while some people do use laptop in other seats, they are more transient. Of course given this is all given there are enough space to do this type of arrangement, but sometimes these approach of actually manipulating behavior rather than being prohibitive is one approach those places can take.

amerika 13y ago

Free wi-fi? Free power? SOCIALISM!

mountaineer 13y ago

Is it just me or are coffee shops turning up the music too? I'm having a hard time finding a coffee shop where I can have a skype or phone call. Loud music and/or noise is one way to discourage long-term telecommuters who need to stay in touch.

shalmanese 13y ago

A German Coffee shop is innovating with a new model where the coffee is free but you are charged for the time you spend: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-germany_n_3345531.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-germ... This seems like an interesting way to keep the incentives more aligned. Personally, I wish there was a more socially acceptable way to just rent space at a coffee shop. I don't drink caffeine and I often need to find a place to crash for 2 hours which means either I buy a high calorie pastry/juice that I don't really need to be eating or I feel like an asshole the entire time I'm there. It'd be far easier for me if I could just drop $4 in a jar and have that cover my time.

thomaspaine 13y ago
What's wrong with the library?
- autodidakto 13y ago
  ssssh! ...We're closing.
danabramov 13y ago
A Russian cafe Ziferblat has been doing just that in Russia for two years already. The model was pioneered by a very passionate and modest guy called Vanya Mitin. Actually, the article mentions it: >Owner Daria Volkova, 24, was inspired by similar cafes in Russia, where she is originally from. I don't want to sound mean; it's just that Vanya Mitin did really exciting things here and a lot of copycats used his model (which is of course how market works). Kudos to Daria for mentioning where the idea comes from.
epsylon 13y ago
What you need is a Bring Your Own Computer Internet café. 10 years ago, I hanged out a lot in internet cafés, and loved it. There was definitely something cool about it: hanging out with tech-savvy people, using beastly machines on powerful internet connections, exploring the exponentially exploding internet, playing games, ... It was a very social experience, and I befriended a few other regulars there. I do miss the ambiance of these cafés, and I wish that laptops, better internet connections (the days of 56k are long gone) and ubiquitous free WiFi hadn't killed that kind of business. There's potential for a revival of internet cafés, though. Good Wifi, preinstalled docks for common laptops, smartly arranged space (to avoid spilling coffee on your precious laptop because you accidentally pulled a cable !) and a different pricing model, you could attract easily the horde of Starbucks and McDonald's "laptop hobos"...

hekker 13y ago

A simple solution to this problem would be to replace the seating in the coffee shop with less comfortable ones. A while ago I had to work from a coffee shop for one day and while the chair I was sitting on was comfortable for 3 to 4 hours, my back and arms really started to ache after that time. The next day I still felt it. This would solve the problem: regular laptop hobo's will not use your shop because it will not be comfortable to work there, while customers that are there to socialize are there for a short amount of time anyway.

pjbrunet 13y ago

Newer laptops have 6+ hour batteries. Not having a power outlet won't deter anyone in the future. Also, if you have Clear or tethering you don't need WIFI to get online. I have Clear and it's been fun to find new places to work. (I just wish Clear had better coverage maps.) So why be a "hobo" at one location when you can work at several locations? As far as limited space, this is not really an issue unless you live in a big city. If you're in NYC, you're elbow to elbow like sardines all day long everywhere you go, is this really news to anyone? If you don't like it, move somewhere less crowded.

wybo 13y ago

Not in defence of laptop hobos, but the following is bs: > "For centuries cafes have been places where people go to meet, trade gossip, network and otherwise come together informally, and some coffee shops are trying to encourage that social interaction again by taking action against the laptop hobos." Anyone who has done a bit of history (or can find WP) knows that coffee-houses and pubs used to be places where people used to read, work, play games, and hang out for hours on end, whole days or evenings; every evening. Why? Because it saved money on not having to heat ones own living-room in winter... Using a bit of electricity on top seems relatively minor in comparison... (though a shift in the relative price of space and drinks/food likely explains the current issues...)

mgraczyk 13y ago

It's interesting to notice the attitudes of the individual shop owners and how they appear to have changed over time. It used to be the case that coffee shops wanted to attract the quiet techie types, clacking away at their laptops and sipping on lattes while checking email, watching videos, working, building the next facebook... whatever. It didn't matter, as long as the ambiance reflected that progressive hopefulness that a quiet 20/30-something on a laptop used to project. "Used to project," being the key phrase there. It seems that based on the attitudes of coffee shop owners, we're entering a post-internet era. Are people finally starting to again realize (as they once did in the early 90s) that being antisocial in public is simply not cool? I tend to think we've evolved with understanding as a basic part of our subconscious. We see a person engaged in antisocial behavior in a public places, and we tend to think less of that person. It would seem that our innate beliefs are once again rising to prominence.

vickytnz 13y ago

As someone who occasionally does spend a few hours in a cafe writing (I'm doing my PhD and it stops me going mad), what's the fair payoff? Sit at a small table and buy a decent coffee (i.e. a latte rather than a cheap filter coffee) every two hours?

ratsimihah 13y ago

> Some shops say they've had enough. They're either laying down customer rules for Wi-Fi use or eliminating it at certain hours -- or even altogether -- while blocking their wall outlets. Portable hotspot all-day batteries (e.g: Macbook Air's) are two examples of bypassing such restrictions. Forbidding the use of laptops sounds more convincing. But that should be enough to trigger some sort of segregation anyway. Not a slick move.

hatu 13y ago

In Berlin there's St. Oberholz: http://www.sanktoberholz.de/ http://www.sanktoberholz.de/ which has really embraced the people using it as an office. Feels like a very welcoming place when you have to get some work done and you won't bother "normal" people since everyone knows what the place is about. They even have added a better co-work space with more office services like snail mail, scanner, printers, conference rooms etc.

ck425 13y ago

Coffee shops have traditionally also been places to read or write, why is using a laptop that different? For those who have complained about laptoppers taking up two person seats a) Most cafes I've been to have had few one person seats and b) most laptops with a coffee take up the space of a two person table.

daniel-cussen 13y ago

From a business point of view, this is so bad that coffee shops should not only not have Wifi altogether, but have jammers.