17 ms·

Your Feedback Matters – Update on Xbox One

240 points by owenwil 13y ago

eridius 13y ago
The page is loading really slowly, so here's the text: Last week at E3, the excitement, creativity and future of our industry was on display for a global audience. For us, the future comes in the form of Xbox One, a system designed to be the best place to play games this year and for many years to come. As is our heritage with Xbox, we designed a system that could take full advantage of advances in technology in order to deliver a breakthrough in game play and entertainment. We imagined a new set of benefits such as easier roaming, family sharing, and new ways to try and buy games. We believe in the benefits of a connected, digital future. Since unveiling our plans for Xbox One, my team and I have heard directly from many of you, read your comments and listened to your feedback. I would like to take the opportunity today to thank you for your assistance in helping us to reshape the future of Xbox One. You told us how much you loved the flexibility you have today with games delivered on disc. The ability to lend, share, and resell these games at your discretion is of incredible importance to you. Also important to you is the freedom to play offline, for any length of time, anywhere in the world. So, today I am announcing the following changes to Xbox One and how you can play, share, lend, and resell your games exactly as you do today on Xbox 360. Here is what that means: An internet connection will not be required to play offline Xbox One games – After a one-time system set-up with a new Xbox One, you can play any disc based game without ever connecting online again. There is no 24 hour connection requirement and you can take your Xbox One anywhere you want and play your games, just like on Xbox 360. Trade-in, lend, resell, gift, and rent disc based games just like you do today – There will be no limitations to using and sharing games, it will work just as it does today on Xbox 360. In addition to buying a disc from a retailer, you can also download games from Xbox Live on day of release. If you choose to download your games, you will be able to play them offline just like you do today. Xbox One games will be playable on any Xbox One console -- there will be no regional restrictions. These changes will impact some of the scenarios we previously announced for Xbox One. The sharing of games will work as it does today, you will simply share the disc. Downloaded titles cannot be shared or resold. Also, similar to today, playing disc based games will require that the disc be in the tray. We appreciate your passion, support and willingness to challenge the assumptions of digital licensing and connectivity. While we believe that the majority of people will play games online and access the cloud for both games and entertainment, we will give consumers the choice of both physical and digital content. We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds. Thank you again for your candid feedback. Our team remains committed to listening, taking feedback and delivering a great product for you later this year.
- rocky1138 13y ago
  So much text for so little info. They should have just given us a TL;DR.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Unless I am missing something, the TL;DR seems to be "it will work like the 360".
    - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
      with the Kinect complaints notably absent. Considering how flimsy both the Kinect and the XBOX360 are, there's no way I'm buying an Xbox One if I'm required to have mics and cameras connected at all times, nevermind the privacy issues!
  - taopao 13y ago
    Hacker News has now become Reddit.
    - pizza 13y ago
      > If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.)
- anoncow 13y ago
  >We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds. I know this has almost no chance of being the reason for the usage of the phrase "best of both worlds". I posted this in a HN thread about xbox one. >So the PS4 is Steam for consoles with offline support. Best of both worlds. Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876761 Comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5878200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5878200 :-)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JohnTHaller 13y ago
The quick summary: + No more needing to connect in every 24 hours to validate your game. It connects once the first time you run it. + You can now lend, share and sell disc-based games exactly as you can with PS3 and Xbox 360 discs - All other advanced sharing features have been dropped (share with 10 friends/family, virtually lend to a friend, etc) - Discs will need to be in the tray to play
- rajanikanthr 13y ago
  they might be shocked by the responses on youtube for the PS4 sarcastic video of sharing games.. LOL..
  - Hansi 13y ago
    Not surprising. I'm generally shocked that the people that comment on youtube videos are actually able to turn on a computer considering the quality of their writing.
- Makkhdyn 13y ago
  I really don't understand why they aren't trying to do something in between. If you download/buy a game from xbox live you can virtually lend it and a connection is require to lend the game (and temporary disable your access to that game). If you own a physical copy you can lend it as you did before. Everyone's happy and if the new system is that good and the consumers are happy then maybe the next system could be through xbox live only.
  - TimJRobinson 13y ago
    That's what they are doing. Combining New and old.
meritt 13y ago
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out given the immense amount of damage done already by their out-of-touch policies. It's like the SimCity debacle was just somehow ignored over there. Guessing the numerous PS4 pre-orders and the telling Amazon poll finally convinced someone "Hey guys, turns out that DRM policy is killing us, can we please disable it?" An entity that only does the right thing after being publicly ousted is not an entity deserving of the public's trust or business.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  An entity that only does the right thing after being publicly ousted is not an entity deserving of the public's trust or business That feels overly cynical. It's not like they were caught doing something underhanded, they just announced policies that weren't as consumer-friendly. There was a backlash, their competition took advantage of it, and they switched to a better policy. To me, it seems that everything worked out the way it was supposed to. Capitalism still works.
Dirlewanger 13y ago
Hopefully the gaming "journalism" industry will stop jerking off the PS4 after this. Any pragmatic-minded individual saw this coming after their E3 fiasco. Not doing so would have been akin to pouring money down the drain.
- ikeepforgetting 13y ago
  The only reason they backed off of it was because of the bad press it gave them in the first place.
gfodor 13y ago
I'm pretty sure short-sighted consumers/gamers shot themselves in the foot on this one, big time. I would have liked to have seen if Microsoft's move would have led to cheaper per game pricing like we see on PC. I guess we'll never know. I actually respected them for making a ballsy change like this that may have brought the console gaming industry into the Steam era. Also, it now looks like you can no longer share/lend/give away your games digitally to friends and family, you have to lug a stupid disc around. High fives everyone, hooray!
- jacquesc 13y ago
  I think the hidden gem there is that all games will be available digitally. Once they figure out how lucrative their equivalent of Steam sales can be, that should start driving the cost of games down and also really hurt the used game market (which Microsoft and publishers are still eager to kill). When you download a game, you can't lend it. You can resell it. Yet no one seems to care (status quo and all). But I think it's the natural progression of things, the next-next gen will be all download (well, we all said that last time too..)
  - eclipxe 13y ago
    Originally, you WOULD be able to lend it...now you can't
  - cobrausn 13y ago
    Steam actually may enable digital game sharing - if you aren't playing your game, you would be able to share it with a friend who could play it while you are not (similar to how a physical game copy would work). But you would have to be 'always on' to verify that you are not playing at the same time they are. http://www.gamespot.com/news/steam-may-allow-game-sharing-report-6410433 http://www.gamespot.com/news/steam-may-allow-game-sharing-re...
  - chc 13y ago
    > Once they figure out how lucrative their equivalent of Steam sales can be, that should start driving the cost of games down This seems pretty unlikely. Microsoft already has a large slice of its catalogue available for download on the 360 — and it's almost always cheaper to buy the disc. To illustrate, I will look up a random game that I did not know the price of before this. Saints Row: The Third costs $49 on the Xbox Marketplace. On Amazon, a new copy costs $29. Discounting lucrative titles just isn't how game companies work, and it especially isn't how Microsoft works.
pvnick 13y ago
It's interesting to see how the massive backlash elicited such a fast response. I'm curious as to how such a task is being undertaken at MS headquarters, with developers working overnights, dropping current work to support this pivot, etc. Personally I think it's very encouraging and a step in the right direction.
- jacquesc 13y ago
  Status quo is fine and all, but I don't think it's really a step in any direction. Though the fact that they're still giving me what I want (digital downloads on all games) means I really have nothing to complain about. Digital lending / sharing features might have been cool though.
tpetrina 13y ago
Finally! Let's hope that there is no firmware or update that will reverse this policy. The only issue that now remains is that the console is limited to 21 countries. This region-lock limitation prevents me from giving money to Microsoft, which is something they should want actually, and from developing for the console.
programminggeek 13y ago
The reason Microsoft is doing this is not what you think it is. The Xbox is a subscription business. $50/year * 46 million subscribers. Microsoft can't afford to lose those subscribers. The box, the DRM, media integration, etc. means nothing if they lose those subscribers to the Wii U or PS4. So, don't piss off your core customers. Anecdotally, a lot of my friends and family who are longtime Xbox gamers have no intention of buying a $500 DRM laden Xbox 360. Removing a lot of the DRM restrictions still doesn't fix the price and now Microsoft already looks a bit foolish for not being very customer friendly in the first place. The "console war" is a long game, but Xbox One didn't start out on the right foot for sure.
- habitue 13y ago
  > The reason Microsoft is doing this is not what you think it is. I assumed they were succumbing to pressure from their customer base... what was I supposed to think the reason was?
  - teamonkey 13y ago
    The people complaining are only a fraction of their total customer base.
    - shock-value 13y ago
      Pressure doesn't just mean vocal pressure. By now I assume they have preorder data from Amazon, etc. (For Amazon, the PS4 has been a top seller in the videogame category for most of the past week despite being split up into multiple bundles.)
      - teamonkey 13y ago
        So has the Xbox One, although there's only one SKU so far.
        shock-value 13y ago
ebbv 13y ago
This takes care of the used games issue but it doesn't take care of: - $100 more expensive than PS4. - Kinect always included, always connected and always on. Cannot be removed, disabled or turned off. - Netflix behind Xbox Live Gold paywall, available for free on PS4. Plus other numerous functionality complaints such as it's supposed to be the way you watch TV but it isn't a DVR, you still need a separate DVR. And it's supposed to be the center of your home theater but only has a single HDMI input.
- dualboot 13y ago
  Personally, I don't care if the Kinect is always connected if the thing isn't online at all. Also a $100 Discount doesn't have any traction with me regarding all of the bad will they created from the decades of pushing highly proprietary technologies into the market. Their terrible practices for me hit a crescendo when they made my life miserable via in-laws putting Sony rootkit audio-cd's into their PC. Nope. Not getting any more of my dollars.
  - ebbv 13y ago
    Sony has certainly done some heinous things in the past, but so has Microsoft. So, pick your poison.
    - dualboot 13y ago
      I agree. Sony's actions have just been more insidious from my admittedly anecdotal perspective.
    - Erwin 13y ago
      What has Microsoft done to compete with the Sony rootkit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootki...
      - jamesaguilar 13y ago
        There was this antitrust case where Microsoft tried to illegally take ownership of the entire desktop computing ecosystem. It would have probably done more harm than any one rootkit. You may have heard of it. Also, Sony-BMG is not the same company as Sony Computer Entertainment, and indeed no longer exists.
habitue 13y ago
Someone on HN suggested the theory that Microsoft was only announcing all of the digital restrictions because they were hoping Sony would do the same in this generation (since they aren't allowed to collude directly, and it seems a reasonable bet that Sony would up the ante on DRM, as they have historically). But, the theory was that if Sony didn't go that direction, they could always back out before the device goes on sale, since it only matters what the policy ends up being, not what it would have been. If that was indeed Microsofts strategy, you can look at this press release as saying "OK, well Sony didn't go the way we thought, so we're backing off. No harm, no foul". As evidence that they at least had this route as a contingency plan, you have to think this kind of massive about face in the tech would only be possible if they had built in a "TURN_OFF_CRAZY_DRM" flag or something, just in case.
revscat 13y ago
So: 1) You still have to have the Kinect, and so long as the console is on it, too, will always be on. (And apparently even when the console is off it will still be listening for the "turn on" command. This has implications I'm not comfortable with.) 2) Independent developers will still be prohibited from participating in the Marketplace. 3) It will still be $100 more than the PS4. I've been a 360 owner for several years now. At this time it doesn't look like I'll be getting the next generation model.
- MisterBastahrd 13y ago
  I really REALLY hate the Playstation controls compared to the Xbox controls, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice to save a hundred bucks.
sergiotapia 13y ago
Doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I was a 360 owner this current gen (coming off of the PS2) but I will leave Microsoft come end of year. I don't want or need the vast majority of features they are offering. I live in Bolivia - I don't care about the NFL, can't watch Netflix or even stream Pandora. The PS4 has more features that I can use and want, is cheaper and doesn't come with bullshit DRM. Where's the choice?
- wukkuan 13y ago
  What are the features the PS4 has that are missing on the Xbox One? Genuine question.
  - sergiotapia 13y ago
    Free games with PS+, working online in my country, and more.
    - muyuu 13y ago
      In your country it really is an easy decision. On top of all that, it's clearly the superior hardware for cheaper, without the surveillance device bundled. They are in for a rude awakening.
      - Livven 13y ago
        I guess every smartphone and every tablet is a surveillance device too eh?
        muyuu 13y ago
        Mine isn't, I run an OSS system that lets me verify that the camera is indeed off. It also works disconnected without sabotaging the functionality and software that doesn't require a connection. The camera led is impossible to disable without hardware tampering, too. And I can even tape it and it will continue working. The XBOX PRISM is a different creature altogether, and a very worrisome precedent precisely because we already have smartphones and tablets that could potentially follow that path.
imilligan 13y ago
I'm a bit disappointed at this change - on one hand, it's nice to know that I can share my disc games if I want to. On the other hand though, this effectively means they're killing off their disk-less approach to owning/installing games. This means that instead of having all my games tied to my account on any device I own, I have to lug my games around with my everywhere I go. This also means picking my vegetative self up off the couch when I want to switch what I'm playing.
- mynameisvlad 13y ago
  Sucks to be you. That's what happens when people shortsightedly complain about things over and over again. It just goes back to the status quo. Without the 24 hour check, there's no way to guarantee that the games tied to disks are still owned by you and you didn't just give them to someone.
  - GVIrish 13y ago
    How was Microsoft's plan any better than the status quo. Having to take your physical discs somewhere is not some huge burden that will break the backs of people who want to play games at someone else's house. Fact of the matter is that someone would have to sit there and wait for a multiply gigabyte download to finish in order to play a game at someone else's house without the disc. Forget trying to play more than one game unless you've got a couple of days to burn downloading. Meanwhile, with MSFT's old plan you couldn't lend a game to anyone, couldn't rent a game from anyone, and it seems like you could only sell your game back to a retailer. People keep saying, "The games would've been cheaper" but there were no indications that was going to happen. If games were going to be cheaper, don't you think Microsoft would've touted that as a benefit at least ONCE since they unveiled the Xbox One?
conradfr 13y ago
Weren't games supposed to run partly on the cloud ?
- shock-value 13y ago
  I think that was just PR nonsense from the beginning. Besides the fact that very few gaming related tasks (except multiplayer support) would benefit from remote servers, they couldn't assume an internet connection anyway, since the check-in was only once per 24 hours.
  - skeletonjelly 13y ago
    PS4 has this as well. I'm assuming it's possible to direct a calculation to either the local or remote servers.
sivam 13y ago
Reposting my earlier comment on the other thread that went off front page: They should rename the Xbox One to the Xbox 180, it would be a perfect name! On a more serious note, I don't like this rollback. It only goes to show how the witchhunt and echo chamber on Reddit worked. Even before the reveal, Microsoft was falsely accused of trying to game Reddit and everyone flew off the handle over someone pretty much lying to be a troll. Say the word "DRM" and you get bucketloads of Reddit karma and posts pointing out the facts(forget about posts taking the opposing view or opinion) were downvoted into oblivion by the angry mob. And then there was the bad timing on the NSA leaks, which didn't help at all. Everyone has smartphones, laptops and tablets with cameras and mics which could be watching and listening and Apple/Google were part of the leak, but it was Microsoft that was singled out for proposing a device that could turn on itself, and had numerous safeguards to configure privacy if you wanted to. All this doesn't excuse the fact that Microsoft utterly and totally failed in communicating their message in a proper manner in E3 and handed Sony an easy victory on a silver platter. For example, they failed to highlight how it fixes the problem of scratched and lost discs and how inconvenient it is to change discs to switch between games. I know a lot of people with huge DVD collections who watch the same movie on Netflix because they can't be bothered to put in a disc into the player. They were touting the ability to play another game while waiting for people to join another multiplayer game, now that will be inconvenient with having to switch disks. I guess it was easy to roll this back because it was not Microsoft but publishers and game developers that were going to reap the benefits of diskless gaming because Gamestop etc. skim off the value of older games and leave publishers with not much value. Once the public failed to see the advantages and blamed Microsoft for a power grab that was not going to really benefit them all that much, it was game over.
- chez17 13y ago
  >On a more serious note, I don't like this rollback. It only goes to show how the witchhunt and echo chamber on Reddit worked. It seems like you haven't considered that the echo chamber is right on this one. DRM is a cancer on the industry and every attempt to fight it back is worth it. You make points that the DRM could lead to potential benefits, no one is disputing that. Simply put, with the way it was, I was never going to buy an Xbox, now I might consider it. I can't stand the trend these days where the consumer owns nothing and controls nothing. This is capitalism at work, nothing else. It seems like a win for consumer rights and a win for Microsoft. Your post seems like a reactionary post lambasting the reactionary posts on reddit.
l0c0b0x 13y ago
Nice try Microsoft, but you're still not getting my money. Not until you do something about your Xbox live ripoff(s).
jamesdelaneyie 13y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if this flip-flop was planned for some time ago. Same with the iOS7 icons.
sjmulder 13y ago
> Downloaded titles cannot be shared or resold. They’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater. This sort of flexible licensing doesn’t make sense for disc-based games, but would have worked very well for downloads.
dageshi 13y ago
Personally I think Microsoft will have to drop the price of the xbox one to match the PS4. I think people will look at the Kinect and ask if it's really worth paying an extra $100 for. The answer will be a resounding no.
- recursive 13y ago
  I think it's worth more than $100. I certainly can't see how the no would be resounding.
pdknsk 13y ago
I guess the massive cheering at the E3 press conference when Sony announced their policy on this scared them pretty good. For me, it was one of the saddest gaming related moments I witnessed. This should be expected, not applauded.
ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
It doesn't matter they already showed me what kind of company they are over and over again. The fact that they would try this in the first place says something about them. After all these decades, nothing's changed about Microsoft. And don't even try to feed me that BS about "companies exist to make money". No. They. Do. Not. A company exists to create a solution to a problem or fulfill a need. In exchange for providing that to a consumer or user they are rewarded with money. Money is not the goal, it's the result of achieving a goal. People don't start companies thinking "I'm going to start a company to make money" . They do however start them by saying "I'm going to start a company that makes ______ for money". I'm just glad this whole thing backfired and I hope they feel the wrath of the gaming community for years. Their entire plan was to kiss the asses of publishers who would in turn make more exclusives for Xbone and the players would have no choice but to get an Xbone. Now that is a dick move.
- nbouscal 13y ago
  > And don't even try to feed me that BS about "companies exist to make money". No. They. Do. Not. Yes they do. > People don't start companies thinking "I'm going to start a company to make money" . Yes they do. You've clearly never met any business majors.
seivan 13y ago
Our money matters.
ssag 13y ago
Your feedback matters so much we have disabled comments on this page.
locusm 13y ago
I see a Kickstarter opp here - the Xbox Kinect sleep mask.

240 points by owenwil 13y ago

The page is loading really slowly, so here's the text: Last week at E3, the excitement, creativity and future of our industry was on display for a global audience. For us, the future comes in the form of Xbox One, a system designed to be the best place to play games this year and for many years to come. As is our heritage with Xbox, we designed a system that could take full advantage of advances in technology in order to deliver a breakthrough in game play and entertainment. We imagined a new set of benefits such as easier roaming, family sharing, and new ways to try and buy games. We believe in the benefits of a connected, digital future. Since unveiling our plans for Xbox One, my team and I have heard directly from many of you, read your comments and listened to your feedback. I would like to take the opportunity today to thank you for your assistance in helping us to reshape the future of Xbox One. You told us how much you loved the flexibility you have today with games delivered on disc. The ability to lend, share, and resell these games at your discretion is of incredible importance to you. Also important to you is the freedom to play offline, for any length of time, anywhere in the world. So, today I am announcing the following changes to Xbox One and how you can play, share, lend, and resell your games exactly as you do today on Xbox 360. Here is what that means: An internet connection will not be required to play offline Xbox One games – After a one-time system set-up with a new Xbox One, you can play any disc based game without ever connecting online again. There is no 24 hour connection requirement and you can take your Xbox One anywhere you want and play your games, just like on Xbox 360. Trade-in, lend, resell, gift, and rent disc based games just like you do today – There will be no limitations to using and sharing games, it will work just as it does today on Xbox 360. In addition to buying a disc from a retailer, you can also download games from Xbox Live on day of release. If you choose to download your games, you will be able to play them offline just like you do today. Xbox One games will be playable on any Xbox One console -- there will be no regional restrictions. These changes will impact some of the scenarios we previously announced for Xbox One. The sharing of games will work as it does today, you will simply share the disc. Downloaded titles cannot be shared or resold. Also, similar to today, playing disc based games will require that the disc be in the tray. We appreciate your passion, support and willingness to challenge the assumptions of digital licensing and connectivity. While we believe that the majority of people will play games online and access the cloud for both games and entertainment, we will give consumers the choice of both physical and digital content. We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds. Thank you again for your candid feedback. Our team remains committed to listening, taking feedback and delivering a great product for you later this year.

rocky1138 13y ago
So much text for so little info. They should have just given us a TL;DR.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Unless I am missing something, the TL;DR seems to be "it will work like the 360".
  - rmrfrmrf 13y ago
    with the Kinect complaints notably absent. Considering how flimsy both the Kinect and the XBOX360 are, there's no way I'm buying an Xbox One if I'm required to have mics and cameras connected at all times, nevermind the privacy issues!
- taopao 13y ago
  Hacker News has now become Reddit.
  - pizza 13y ago
    > If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.)
anoncow 13y ago
>We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds. I know this has almost no chance of being the reason for the usage of the phrase "best of both worlds". I posted this in a HN thread about xbox one. >So the PS4 is Steam for consoles with offline support. Best of both worlds. Thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5876761 Comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5878200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5878200 :-)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

JohnTHaller 13y ago

The quick summary: + No more needing to connect in every 24 hours to validate your game. It connects once the first time you run it. + You can now lend, share and sell disc-based games exactly as you can with PS3 and Xbox 360 discs - All other advanced sharing features have been dropped (share with 10 friends/family, virtually lend to a friend, etc) - Discs will need to be in the tray to play

rajanikanthr 13y ago
they might be shocked by the responses on youtube for the PS4 sarcastic video of sharing games.. LOL..
- Hansi 13y ago
  Not surprising. I'm generally shocked that the people that comment on youtube videos are actually able to turn on a computer considering the quality of their writing.
Makkhdyn 13y ago
I really don't understand why they aren't trying to do something in between. If you download/buy a game from xbox live you can virtually lend it and a connection is require to lend the game (and temporary disable your access to that game). If you own a physical copy you can lend it as you did before. Everyone's happy and if the new system is that good and the consumers are happy then maybe the next system could be through xbox live only.
- TimJRobinson 13y ago
  That's what they are doing. Combining New and old.

meritt 13y ago

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out given the immense amount of damage done already by their out-of-touch policies. It's like the SimCity debacle was just somehow ignored over there. Guessing the numerous PS4 pre-orders and the telling Amazon poll finally convinced someone "Hey guys, turns out that DRM policy is killing us, can we please disable it?" An entity that only does the right thing after being publicly ousted is not an entity deserving of the public's trust or business.

MartinCron 13y ago
An entity that only does the right thing after being publicly ousted is not an entity deserving of the public's trust or business That feels overly cynical. It's not like they were caught doing something underhanded, they just announced policies that weren't as consumer-friendly. There was a backlash, their competition took advantage of it, and they switched to a better policy. To me, it seems that everything worked out the way it was supposed to. Capitalism still works.

Dirlewanger 13y ago

Hopefully the gaming "journalism" industry will stop jerking off the PS4 after this. Any pragmatic-minded individual saw this coming after their E3 fiasco. Not doing so would have been akin to pouring money down the drain.

ikeepforgetting 13y ago
The only reason they backed off of it was because of the bad press it gave them in the first place.

gfodor 13y ago

I'm pretty sure short-sighted consumers/gamers shot themselves in the foot on this one, big time. I would have liked to have seen if Microsoft's move would have led to cheaper per game pricing like we see on PC. I guess we'll never know. I actually respected them for making a ballsy change like this that may have brought the console gaming industry into the Steam era. Also, it now looks like you can no longer share/lend/give away your games digitally to friends and family, you have to lug a stupid disc around. High fives everyone, hooray!

jacquesc 13y ago
I think the hidden gem there is that all games will be available digitally. Once they figure out how lucrative their equivalent of Steam sales can be, that should start driving the cost of games down and also really hurt the used game market (which Microsoft and publishers are still eager to kill). When you download a game, you can't lend it. You can resell it. Yet no one seems to care (status quo and all). But I think it's the natural progression of things, the next-next gen will be all download (well, we all said that last time too..)
- eclipxe 13y ago
  Originally, you WOULD be able to lend it...now you can't
- cobrausn 13y ago
  Steam actually may enable digital game sharing - if you aren't playing your game, you would be able to share it with a friend who could play it while you are not (similar to how a physical game copy would work). But you would have to be 'always on' to verify that you are not playing at the same time they are. http://www.gamespot.com/news/steam-may-allow-game-sharing-report-6410433 http://www.gamespot.com/news/steam-may-allow-game-sharing-re...
- chc 13y ago
  > Once they figure out how lucrative their equivalent of Steam sales can be, that should start driving the cost of games down This seems pretty unlikely. Microsoft already has a large slice of its catalogue available for download on the 360 — and it's almost always cheaper to buy the disc. To illustrate, I will look up a random game that I did not know the price of before this. Saints Row: The Third costs $49 on the Xbox Marketplace. On Amazon, a new copy costs $29. Discounting lucrative titles just isn't how game companies work, and it especially isn't how Microsoft works.

pvnick 13y ago

It's interesting to see how the massive backlash elicited such a fast response. I'm curious as to how such a task is being undertaken at MS headquarters, with developers working overnights, dropping current work to support this pivot, etc. Personally I think it's very encouraging and a step in the right direction.

jacquesc 13y ago
Status quo is fine and all, but I don't think it's really a step in any direction. Though the fact that they're still giving me what I want (digital downloads on all games) means I really have nothing to complain about. Digital lending / sharing features might have been cool though.

tpetrina 13y ago

Finally! Let's hope that there is no firmware or update that will reverse this policy. The only issue that now remains is that the console is limited to 21 countries. This region-lock limitation prevents me from giving money to Microsoft, which is something they should want actually, and from developing for the console.

programminggeek 13y ago

The reason Microsoft is doing this is not what you think it is. The Xbox is a subscription business. $50/year * 46 million subscribers. Microsoft can't afford to lose those subscribers. The box, the DRM, media integration, etc. means nothing if they lose those subscribers to the Wii U or PS4. So, don't piss off your core customers. Anecdotally, a lot of my friends and family who are longtime Xbox gamers have no intention of buying a $500 DRM laden Xbox 360. Removing a lot of the DRM restrictions still doesn't fix the price and now Microsoft already looks a bit foolish for not being very customer friendly in the first place. The "console war" is a long game, but Xbox One didn't start out on the right foot for sure.

habitue 13y ago
> The reason Microsoft is doing this is not what you think it is. I assumed they were succumbing to pressure from their customer base... what was I supposed to think the reason was?
- teamonkey 13y ago
  The people complaining are only a fraction of their total customer base.
  - shock-value 13y ago
    Pressure doesn't just mean vocal pressure. By now I assume they have preorder data from Amazon, etc. (For Amazon, the PS4 has been a top seller in the videogame category for most of the past week despite being split up into multiple bundles.)
    - teamonkey 13y ago
      So has the Xbox One, although there's only one SKU so far.
      - shock-value 13y ago

ebbv 13y ago

This takes care of the used games issue but it doesn't take care of: - $100 more expensive than PS4. - Kinect always included, always connected and always on. Cannot be removed, disabled or turned off. - Netflix behind Xbox Live Gold paywall, available for free on PS4. Plus other numerous functionality complaints such as it's supposed to be the way you watch TV but it isn't a DVR, you still need a separate DVR. And it's supposed to be the center of your home theater but only has a single HDMI input.

dualboot 13y ago
Personally, I don't care if the Kinect is always connected if the thing isn't online at all. Also a $100 Discount doesn't have any traction with me regarding all of the bad will they created from the decades of pushing highly proprietary technologies into the market. Their terrible practices for me hit a crescendo when they made my life miserable via in-laws putting Sony rootkit audio-cd's into their PC. Nope. Not getting any more of my dollars.
- ebbv 13y ago
  Sony has certainly done some heinous things in the past, but so has Microsoft. So, pick your poison.
  - dualboot 13y ago
    I agree. Sony's actions have just been more insidious from my admittedly anecdotal perspective.
  - Erwin 13y ago
    What has Microsoft done to compete with the Sony rootkit? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootki...
    - jamesaguilar 13y ago
      There was this antitrust case where Microsoft tried to illegally take ownership of the entire desktop computing ecosystem. It would have probably done more harm than any one rootkit. You may have heard of it. Also, Sony-BMG is not the same company as Sony Computer Entertainment, and indeed no longer exists.

habitue 13y ago

Someone on HN suggested the theory that Microsoft was only announcing all of the digital restrictions because they were hoping Sony would do the same in this generation (since they aren't allowed to collude directly, and it seems a reasonable bet that Sony would up the ante on DRM, as they have historically). But, the theory was that if Sony didn't go that direction, they could always back out before the device goes on sale, since it only matters what the policy ends up being, not what it would have been. If that was indeed Microsofts strategy, you can look at this press release as saying "OK, well Sony didn't go the way we thought, so we're backing off. No harm, no foul". As evidence that they at least had this route as a contingency plan, you have to think this kind of massive about face in the tech would only be possible if they had built in a "TURN_OFF_CRAZY_DRM" flag or something, just in case.

revscat 13y ago

So: 1) You still have to have the Kinect, and so long as the console is on it, too, will always be on. (And apparently even when the console is off it will still be listening for the "turn on" command. This has implications I'm not comfortable with.) 2) Independent developers will still be prohibited from participating in the Marketplace. 3) It will still be $100 more than the PS4. I've been a 360 owner for several years now. At this time it doesn't look like I'll be getting the next generation model.

MisterBastahrd 13y ago
I really REALLY hate the Playstation controls compared to the Xbox controls, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice to save a hundred bucks.

sergiotapia 13y ago

Doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I was a 360 owner this current gen (coming off of the PS2) but I will leave Microsoft come end of year. I don't want or need the vast majority of features they are offering. I live in Bolivia - I don't care about the NFL, can't watch Netflix or even stream Pandora. The PS4 has more features that I can use and want, is cheaper and doesn't come with bullshit DRM. Where's the choice?

wukkuan 13y ago
What are the features the PS4 has that are missing on the Xbox One? Genuine question.
- sergiotapia 13y ago
  Free games with PS+, working online in my country, and more.
  - muyuu 13y ago
    In your country it really is an easy decision. On top of all that, it's clearly the superior hardware for cheaper, without the surveillance device bundled. They are in for a rude awakening.
    - Livven 13y ago
      I guess every smartphone and every tablet is a surveillance device too eh?
      - muyuu 13y ago
        Mine isn't, I run an OSS system that lets me verify that the camera is indeed off. It also works disconnected without sabotaging the functionality and software that doesn't require a connection. The camera led is impossible to disable without hardware tampering, too. And I can even tape it and it will continue working. The XBOX PRISM is a different creature altogether, and a very worrisome precedent precisely because we already have smartphones and tablets that could potentially follow that path.

imilligan 13y ago

I'm a bit disappointed at this change - on one hand, it's nice to know that I can share my disc games if I want to. On the other hand though, this effectively means they're killing off their disk-less approach to owning/installing games. This means that instead of having all my games tied to my account on any device I own, I have to lug my games around with my everywhere I go. This also means picking my vegetative self up off the couch when I want to switch what I'm playing.

mynameisvlad 13y ago
Sucks to be you. That's what happens when people shortsightedly complain about things over and over again. It just goes back to the status quo. Without the 24 hour check, there's no way to guarantee that the games tied to disks are still owned by you and you didn't just give them to someone.
- GVIrish 13y ago
  How was Microsoft's plan any better than the status quo. Having to take your physical discs somewhere is not some huge burden that will break the backs of people who want to play games at someone else's house. Fact of the matter is that someone would have to sit there and wait for a multiply gigabyte download to finish in order to play a game at someone else's house without the disc. Forget trying to play more than one game unless you've got a couple of days to burn downloading. Meanwhile, with MSFT's old plan you couldn't lend a game to anyone, couldn't rent a game from anyone, and it seems like you could only sell your game back to a retailer. People keep saying, "The games would've been cheaper" but there were no indications that was going to happen. If games were going to be cheaper, don't you think Microsoft would've touted that as a benefit at least ONCE since they unveiled the Xbox One?

conradfr 13y ago

Weren't games supposed to run partly on the cloud ?

shock-value 13y ago
I think that was just PR nonsense from the beginning. Besides the fact that very few gaming related tasks (except multiplayer support) would benefit from remote servers, they couldn't assume an internet connection anyway, since the check-in was only once per 24 hours.
- skeletonjelly 13y ago
  PS4 has this as well. I'm assuming it's possible to direct a calculation to either the local or remote servers.

sivam 13y ago

Reposting my earlier comment on the other thread that went off front page: They should rename the Xbox One to the Xbox 180, it would be a perfect name! On a more serious note, I don't like this rollback. It only goes to show how the witchhunt and echo chamber on Reddit worked. Even before the reveal, Microsoft was falsely accused of trying to game Reddit and everyone flew off the handle over someone pretty much lying to be a troll. Say the word "DRM" and you get bucketloads of Reddit karma and posts pointing out the facts(forget about posts taking the opposing view or opinion) were downvoted into oblivion by the angry mob. And then there was the bad timing on the NSA leaks, which didn't help at all. Everyone has smartphones, laptops and tablets with cameras and mics which could be watching and listening and Apple/Google were part of the leak, but it was Microsoft that was singled out for proposing a device that could turn on itself, and had numerous safeguards to configure privacy if you wanted to. All this doesn't excuse the fact that Microsoft utterly and totally failed in communicating their message in a proper manner in E3 and handed Sony an easy victory on a silver platter. For example, they failed to highlight how it fixes the problem of scratched and lost discs and how inconvenient it is to change discs to switch between games. I know a lot of people with huge DVD collections who watch the same movie on Netflix because they can't be bothered to put in a disc into the player. They were touting the ability to play another game while waiting for people to join another multiplayer game, now that will be inconvenient with having to switch disks. I guess it was easy to roll this back because it was not Microsoft but publishers and game developers that were going to reap the benefits of diskless gaming because Gamestop etc. skim off the value of older games and leave publishers with not much value. Once the public failed to see the advantages and blamed Microsoft for a power grab that was not going to really benefit them all that much, it was game over.

chez17 13y ago
>On a more serious note, I don't like this rollback. It only goes to show how the witchhunt and echo chamber on Reddit worked. It seems like you haven't considered that the echo chamber is right on this one. DRM is a cancer on the industry and every attempt to fight it back is worth it. You make points that the DRM could lead to potential benefits, no one is disputing that. Simply put, with the way it was, I was never going to buy an Xbox, now I might consider it. I can't stand the trend these days where the consumer owns nothing and controls nothing. This is capitalism at work, nothing else. It seems like a win for consumer rights and a win for Microsoft. Your post seems like a reactionary post lambasting the reactionary posts on reddit.

l0c0b0x 13y ago

Nice try Microsoft, but you're still not getting my money. Not until you do something about your Xbox live ripoff(s).

jamesdelaneyie 13y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if this flip-flop was planned for some time ago. Same with the iOS7 icons.

sjmulder 13y ago

> Downloaded titles cannot be shared or resold. They’ve thrown out the baby with the bathwater. This sort of flexible licensing doesn’t make sense for disc-based games, but would have worked very well for downloads.

dageshi 13y ago

Personally I think Microsoft will have to drop the price of the xbox one to match the PS4. I think people will look at the Kinect and ask if it's really worth paying an extra $100 for. The answer will be a resounding no.

recursive 13y ago
I think it's worth more than $100. I certainly can't see how the no would be resounding.

pdknsk 13y ago

I guess the massive cheering at the E3 press conference when Sony announced their policy on this scared them pretty good. For me, it was one of the saddest gaming related moments I witnessed. This should be expected, not applauded.

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago

It doesn't matter they already showed me what kind of company they are over and over again. The fact that they would try this in the first place says something about them. After all these decades, nothing's changed about Microsoft. And don't even try to feed me that BS about "companies exist to make money". No. They. Do. Not. A company exists to create a solution to a problem or fulfill a need. In exchange for providing that to a consumer or user they are rewarded with money. Money is not the goal, it's the result of achieving a goal. People don't start companies thinking "I'm going to start a company to make money" . They do however start them by saying "I'm going to start a company that makes ______ for money". I'm just glad this whole thing backfired and I hope they feel the wrath of the gaming community for years. Their entire plan was to kiss the asses of publishers who would in turn make more exclusives for Xbone and the players would have no choice but to get an Xbone. Now that is a dick move.

nbouscal 13y ago
> And don't even try to feed me that BS about "companies exist to make money". No. They. Do. Not. Yes they do. > People don't start companies thinking "I'm going to start a company to make money" . Yes they do. You've clearly never met any business majors.

seivan 13y ago

Our money matters.

ssag 13y ago

Your feedback matters so much we have disabled comments on this page.

locusm 13y ago

I see a Kickstarter opp here - the Xbox Kinect sleep mask.