Wow.
I am speechless.
As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's where the similarities end.
I am stunned however that a person who very likely has never even visited either place (much less lived in them) has the gall to call what Turkey is going through "Singaporification." I mean, it's not like I haven't noticed the anti-Singaporean sentiments on HN lately - they don't surprise me, since a lot of HN folks are white middle/upper-middle class and lean libertarian[1], which is the exact opposite of Singapore. But using the events in Istanbul as an opportunity to bash Singapore is just... petty and shameless.
I would love to give you a detailed breakdown of the differences between Singapore and Turkey, but that would be an essay. I'll highlight a few important ones.
Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government. That's part of the reason why the protests started: the contractor that was going to build the mall on top of Gezi Park has ties to the Prime Minister, who was going to profit from it. That's just ONE example.
Singapore is extremely diverse culturally. There are several religions and languages. As a result, there are often no culturally accepted behaviors. In a sense, Singapore does not really fit the traditional definition of a nation, and instead has been called a society in transition. In contrast, Turkey has a very strong cultural identity rooted deeply in the country's history and predominant religion, Islam.
The two country's governments are also extremely different. Singapore is a de-facto one-party state; the dominant party, the PAP, has won every single general election since the first one. In contrast, Turkey is a multi-party system, which creates very complex dynamics in the political landscape.
I can go on, but you get the idea. Hopefully.
[1]Table 10 in http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa580.pdf http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa580.pdf
"Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world."
You should ask Shane Todd about that.
For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think it's correct to be comparing the current Singapore with the current Turkey, since the premise is that Turkey is on the way to becoming like Singapore. So from this perspective if you examine the points you gave:
- Singapore is the least corrupt country in the world because of extremely tough laws that were enacted in the past.
- I'll give you that Singapore is much more diverse, but note that China also wants to adopt a Singapore model and has an incredibly strong cultural identity.
- A quick lookup shows that Erdoğan has been in office for the longest time since the 60s (three terms). To me, fears of Turkey becoming a de facto one-party state seems justified, at least absent any other information.
I'm not sure if listing the differences and similarities of the two countries is even relevant to this particular discussion. The thesis was that Turkey might be trying to adopt a Singapore model of using economic growth and social order to offset the demand for political freedom. It doesn't actually matter how different the countries are if the government objectives are similar.
"A quick lookup shows that Erdoğan has been in office for the longest time since the 60s (three terms). To me, fears of Turkey becoming a de facto one-party state seems justified, at least absent any other information."
You're on to something. One of the underlying reasons of the protests is not only Erdoğan has been in the office for a long time, but also secular sections of the society has lost hope of change of government within the political system (Opposition is in shambles, AKP will likely win the elections again, etc.) There is no political alternative within the system, hence the growing discontent manifests itself in other ways.
If you think the worst is a one-party state, you've not been following the news. The worst is that Erdogan completes his mission : turning turkey in a middle-eastern islamic dictatorship where women are beaten for walking on the street and every tiniest bit of culture dies, violently and with beheadings.
I remember your comment from yesterday, where you wrote about what is happening in Ankara, stating "I don't live there right now".
Of course, not even living anywhere near where you are, I cannot qualify this myself. But my question (that I hope you won't understand as offensive) to you is: Is it possible that you are victim to your somewhat limited horizon and to the possibly biased information that you get from your government?
I don't get any of my information from the government. They are censoring all the newspapers and channels... Social media is a lot more reliable to get up-to-date information. Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, etc.
You know, actually the US isn't that much freer in practice compared to Singapore. In theory, perhaps. And the reason has less to do with the decline of rugged individualism amongst soccer moms than the existence of a constant low-level background threat, whether from terrorism, a sizable underclass, law enforcement, or (this might be embarassing for some) alcoholism. They don't check IDs for alcohol in Singapore. If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe. However, if you say that it is the US which makes sacrifices to provide those freedoms, I will actually agree with you. For the record, I was born and raised in Singapore and have lived in the US for the last decade.
EDIT: all these debates have the political reek of programming language wars... US <-> Lisp; Singapore <-> C++.
If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe.
You have to go where?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine-Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1009...
I think if you want to see practical examples of freedom, you can conquer your own island and start inventing them. No modern nation is going to tolerate very much of it.
I partially disagree with your comment about corruption. This part:"Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government."
Corruption on upper levels probably never disappears, but at least on the lower levels, where people really got hurt and dreaded most, things got better with current government. As someone who lived in Turkey for quite long time, I can say I was pleasantly surprised that one didn't have to bribe anyone buy a small property. Before, it would be impossible to buy property without bribing everyone in the land register office including janitor and tea server.
Also, in the recent perceived corruption index charts Turkey's position is not so bad, wish it is much better (54.th in 176 countries, Singapore is 5th. Source: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results)
Interesting map, but I have to question it a bit. I mean, Switzerland is 6th which speaks highly to their local situation, but their banks enable all manner of international corruptions.
>anti-Singaporean sentiments on HN lately
To be honest I doubt Singapore is on the radar of most HN participants in any shape or form whether positive or negative. Thats not to say that its insignificant - its just that there haven't been any 40k people riots there lately...so not at the front of people's minds.
As a Singaporean who just spent the last hour or so rapidly scanning through Turkey's history, it seems the situation in both countries is the entrenchment of political power within a single party.
As for corruption in Singapore, well, let me just say that one of the caveats of these corruption indices is that whether you perceive it. If you are a foreigner visiting Singapore or even a local living here for a while, your daily life in general will probably be pleasant as long as you are not involved in any form of political activism.
Most of the shenanigans in Singapore are related to politics and how the incumbent party has maintained its power. There is a reason for Singapore being placed in the nether regions (144th rank in the Press Freedom Index) in various press freedom rankings and why we are labeled as a "hybrid regime".
As for people who keep gushing about Singapore and how awesome our country is, all I have for them is a wintry smile and the old phrase, "Not all that glitters is gold".
> Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption
I haven't lived in either, but I did live as a child under dictatorship until I was 7 years old and 1989 happened. My parents and grandparents have fresh memories of the dynamics at play in our country and did their best to explain them to me.
I do have a problem with the quoted statement.
It really depends on how you define corruption. If you define it as fraudulent behaviour by those in power, well, technically those in power do not need to behave fraudulently if they bend the law to support whatever they want to do. On paper, at some point Romania was amongst the least corrupted countries in the world. In practice, our society was rotten at its core.
Ending corruption is not the end goal in itself, corruption being a symptom of other problems in society, like the ability to live free, free to build a business, free to own stuff, free to put food on the table, free to have your own voice and your own opinions and beliefs, free to be happy. Not having corruption can either mean that the problems have been solved, or that those in power forwarded whatever agenda they wanted while crushing all opposition. This is especially doable if the country is doing well economically, such that its citizens do not have to worry about putting food on the table, or providing quality health-care to their family or whatever basic needs humans have. The true test that a form of government faces in regards to corruption is not when things are going well economically, but rather when things go awry and one thing to keep in mind is that corruption also goes bottom-up, starting with normal people closing their eyes at fraudulent behaviour of which they themselves are guilty of.
Also, I do have Turkish friends and I have visited Istanbul twice and judging by their own stories of Istanbul, by how the city evolved during my visits and by how dynamic it is, Istanbul is in my top 10 cities I'd want to live in, while Singapore is not.
For me the greatest truth in this comment lies in the necessity to live in a place to truly understand it. Living in a new and entirely different country challenges your prejudices and preconceptions.