24 ms·

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta agai

by blhack 14y ago

I would also like a response from Sendgrid here. Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. That's awful, and I join the people I see online right now in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. --And to how far Adria has set back womens' rights here-- The common thread I've seen from the women I've worked with in tech has been that they really just wish people didn't even notice their gender. They don't want to get treated like "a girl", they just want to get treated like "a person". What Adria has done here is made sure that people in tech are always hyper aware if they're working with one of the "outsiders" that she has cast herself as. It's really sad. (This comment is also worth reading: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5407884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5407884)

dmishe 14y ago
Well, what can they really say? Either throw her under the bus, or agree completely. So realistically we're down to one option.
ajross 14y ago
Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination. It's just a bad situation all around. Yes, people shouldn't be fired for bad jokes. Neither should they be pilloried by the community for losing their cool and tweeting about it.
- blhack 14y ago
  It went further than that, though. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...
  - sp332 14y ago
    This gives a lot of context and was very helpful, thank you.
  - ubasu 14y ago
    From this article: "I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." Seems a tad melodramatic as a reaction to a private conversation. Seems to go with the Joan-of-Arc complex: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313442430848487424 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313442430848487424
    - ajross 14y ago
      From the same blog post you just quoted: > I agreed with [the guy behind me] ... He said he would be interested in forking the repo [...] That would have been fine until the guy next to him... began making sexual forking jokes I don't see how that constitutes a private conversation. The joke was apparently interjected into a discussion she was already part of. Now, I still don't think the "public shaming" attempt was a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't support firing the guy (if that actually happened; again, no evidence at hand!). But I'm seeing the anti-Adria crowd here really bending over backwards to make this her fault. I think it's entirely reasonable to be offended by this, nor is it unreasonable to tweet or blog about it. That she got a little too hot-headed and posted a picture seems to be all anyone wants to talk about.
      - ubasu 14y ago
        She says: "I agreed with him so I turned around and said so." So she interjected herself into this private conversation, and it is not clear if the other guy's allegedly sexist comments were to her in response to what she said, or if they were just directed to his friend privately.
      - dsmithn 14y ago
        > That she got a little too hot-headed and posted a picture seems to be all anyone wants to talk about. Because that's what got the guy fired. If she had just posted a tweet complaining, or just made a blog post talking about how those kinds of comments were offensive, people would have learned but nobody's life would have been ruined. Instead she choose to post their picture online AND continue to make a big deal about it. That's a personal vendetta.
- moistgorilla 14y ago
  She has thousands of followers. She is in a powerful position and she abused it. Just because she wasn't the employer doesn't mean her goal wasn't something along these lines. Why else would you post a clear picture of their faces up to a public lynch mob?
  - wpietri 14y ago
    What's the abuse? She described what happened right next to her.
    - moistgorilla 14y ago
      Taking a picture of two people without their permission and posting it on the internet eventually causing one of them to get fired doesn't seem like abuse to you? Why didn't she tell them to just be quiet? That's what normal people do.
      - rhizome 14y ago
        As a matter of fact, if you read her blog post about all of this, she recommends the same thing: What has to change is that everyone must take personal accountability and speak up when they hear something that isn’t ok. It takes three words to make a difference: “That’s not cool.” However, she appears to have not followed her own advice. I think it probably would have turned out differently if she had, though.
        mturmon 14y ago
        The conference organizers ask you to not handle it yourself: see https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i..., where it says: "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member" If she had asked them to quiet down, it could have turned into a pissing match. Or maybe they would have complied. You never know how it's going to play out.
- crag 14y ago
  BS. I'm getting sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions. Now I do agree with you somewhat. I doubt she saw this "joke" as an opportunity to screw someone over (at least I hope so. If she did, then all bets are off); but that doesn't excuse her wrong. Her actions caused this guy to be fired. She needs to own it. Apoligize, Offer amends and move on.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Note where you stop in the causal chain: with the woman. You could blame the millennia of sexism that set up the situation. You could blame the gender-imbalanced context: it's easy for humans to be insensitive to minority views. You could blame the guy's parents and teachers for not raising him right. You could blame the guy for saying something inappropriate. You could blame his friends for not reigning him in. You could blame Adria for reporting what he said in public. Or you could blame his boss, the person who actually fired him. Ask yourself: why is she the one you chose to focus on?
    - crag 14y ago
      "Ask yourself: why is she the one you chose to focus on?" You're right. The guys need to own-up for their stupidity too. Oh that's right, they never got the chance. She didn't confront them. She snapped a picture and tweeted. And I agree about their employer. In fact, I'd love to know who the employer was?
    - basqio 14y ago
      Just because a woman is to blame does not prove sexism. It is quite reasonable to say that she holds most of the responsibility in this situation by not reacting to the comments in a professional way. The jokes were hardly sexist and more anatomical and if that bothers he she could have dealt with it in a different way. But I guess I am sexist too for having the opinion that she handled the situation incorrectly right?
    - tadfisher 14y ago
      So we need to remain eternally vigilant of the thousands of years of sexism during our day-to-day dealings? We need to be constantly thinking of the women and minorities in the room before we say anything? How is this being gender-neutral?
- SODaniel 14y ago
  Personal vendetta or not. A person that reacts to a private conversation (inappropriate or not) by posting hearsay about two co-workers to 1000s of followers the way she did is NOT a person I would want to work with, even less hire. She has at the very least shown very bad judgement and should not be commended nor rewarded for it.
  - princess3000 14y ago
    What's private about a conversation taking place in a busy ballroom at a convention, within full earshot of (probably) dozens of people?
    - ajross 14y ago
      Actually according to Adria's blog post (linked elsewhere in the thread) the jokes were made in response to a comment about "forking" a repo from the person sitting next to them. They were riffing off of a conversation she was part of; assuming you believe her, that's "non-private" regardless of context. This whole thread is making me sad.
      - klez 14y ago
        From that same post I got that the two guys where talking, SHE interjected and then the joke was made by one of those guys (to me it isn't clear if she was still part of the conversation, but that's beyond the point).
  - ajross 14y ago
    To nit on terminology: testifying about what you heard yourself is not "hearsay", by definition. I agree her judgement was bad and she shouldn't have posted the image (she has every right to post about the incident, though!). But what I'm reading here is an awful lot of bile about this woman. She's being asked to answer for someone else's decision to fire someone (there's still no documentation or testimony about this fact, FWIW). She's being attacked for "setting back women's rights". She's basically being made the target for (what I perceive to be) a bunch of anti-feminist frustration among the male geeks. And that's... just really, really ugly; sorry. She got pissed off and made a mistake, for which it would probably be a good idea to apologize. That's it. Everything else is on you guys.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rdtsc 14y ago
  Nah, I say let's turn it up a couple of notches. The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. Think about what does she do -- developer advocate, her site is called "butyouregirl", she does talking engagements. She is a no-name. Have you heard of her before? Doubt it. I haven't. Does the whole tech world know her name now and who she is -- "YES". Hello speaking engagements, hello millions of visitors to her blog, hello book deals about social gender issues in post modern technology landscape. Besides this, I am sure she is aware what happened before at PyCon (there as a guy who had a picture of a nude woman in one of the talks and he was escorted out and rightly so), then Jesse Noller et. al. made a strong statement that they are very intolerant to this kind of stuff (and rightly so). But I think there in lies a golden opportunity -- one little message + shitty deceivingly taken photo -- and bam! momentary boost to the top. She made penis jokes herself not too long ago. If that doesn't convince you of her motivations I don't know what will. Unfortunately public reputation, shaming and humiliation goes both ways. Tech community if anything doesn't tolerate bullshit, bureaucracy, dishonesty, and bullying. The 4 parties that played along here: *) Adria *) SendGrid *) PlayHeaven *) PSF Will ultimately have damaged their reputation. I sure hope this person has an offer on the table by now.
  - mcantelon 14y ago
    >The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. I think you nailed it. Her post about the incident is strangely long and melodramatic. "I calculated my next steps." "It very much reminded me of Lord Of the Flies." "Yesterday the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard."
SODaniel 14y ago
Pretty obvious they fired the wrong person here. If someone worked for me and posted inflammatory images/statements about/involving a co-worker they would be the one needing to worry about their job.
- djcapelis 14y ago
  Please clarify if it is in fact the policy of the company you work at that employees should be "worrying about their job" based on the contents of their Twitter accounts. If so, please let me know so I can ensure that I never work with you.
  - dbaupp 14y ago
    Presumably the key point is not that it was on Twitter, but rather it was said in public. The medium is unimportant: its the same as if someone posted such things as a blog post, or said it on TV or whatever. You might like to treat Twitter like a private conversation, but when the posts are completely publicly accessible (and when the person has 1000s of followers) it is certainly not private.
    - djcapelis 14y ago
      IMO: unless you're in front of a podium with your employers logo on it or representing yourself as speaking for your employer, your words are your own stupid (or hell, maybe sometimes even wise) decisions.
  - SODaniel 14y ago
    I am not in a position where I hire or fire people, but if so was the case I would consider her reaction to a private conversation where neither of the participants intended any harm very bad judgement. Tweeting and blogging about this with images in the manner she did clearly steps over the line where it in my opinion is 'ok'. I can absolutely guarantee that the people involved in the conversation felt absolutely ambushed by the event, and that is not a very enjoyable work environment.
  - lopatin 14y ago
djcapelis 14y ago
> I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. I think we need to stop doing this bullshit in general. I'd much rather have our community check each other and shame each other on Twitter than having employers step in and decide that thing X or thing Y is not okay for their employees to say in their personal capacity at a conference or on Twitter. As far as I've heard, Adria never asked for these guys to be terminated and personally, I think it was probably inappropriate for them to be. But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account. Get real.
- Karunamon 14y ago
  >But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account. What's good for the goose... I.e. if it's only fair for someone to be canned based on the postings on some random's personal twitter account, it's only fair for it to work in reverse. Employers can people based on their personal lives all the time. Also, as detailed elsewhere, this goes beyond a mere tweet.
  - zem 14y ago
    here's the point: it's not only fair. in fact, by expecting sendgrid to can adria you're implicitly supporting what the other guy's company did, at which point you really have no complaint.
    - jessaustin 14y ago
      Ummm, my reading of the thread is that we're not going to do business with Adria's employer because of her actions. That's a different thing.
      - Karunamon 14y ago
        Indeed. And if her personal actions and the resultant bad press for Sendgrid causes them to ask the person in question to step down, well, going on the logic in this thread, the employer is the bad guy, not the person acting like a jackass in public. ..In which case the decision to stop or not do business with Sendgrid would be all the more justified.
ritchiea 14y ago
I think Adria is in the wrong here but I don't think it's her fault or fair to blame on her that his employer acted even more quickly and foolishly than she did by firing him. This whole situation sucks but let's try to be realistic about assessing blame. I understand why the fired individual's name is being withheld but I'd really like to know who his employer is. I would boycott that company way before I boycott SendGrid.
- gkoberger 14y ago
  Look at his shirt in the picture.
  - ritchiea 14y ago
    Ha. Good point. Mobile games. Not my thing anyway. Easy to boycott!
katbyte 14y ago
as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. She should have asked them to simmer down or take it outside. And definitely dealt with it in a less public matter, it just screams "look at me i'ml so awesome give me some attention". It even could have been dealt with without identifying them. that was a low blow. And you are exactly right, the biggest issues I've had wrt my gender is that some men feel like they can't just relax and be themselves, and that makes some of them (either consciousnessly or subconsciousnessly) not comfortable. Its always funny to see how relaxed and personable some people become after i make some politically incorrect jokes/references.
- Joeboy 14y ago
  Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.
  - BrianEatWorld 14y ago
    The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.
    - katbyte 14y ago
      Anyone can be made uncomfortable by anything, and most people will try and not make people uncomfortable, but until they know your bothered by it they can't do anything.
integraton 14y ago
As a SendGrid customer, it concerns me that SendGrid would stand behind the initiation of a public controversy under such questionable circumstances, especially one that resulted in the firing of a developer from his job. SendGrid should be in the business of email deliverability, not public shaming. Edit: I've tempered my phrasing above quite a bit and removed references to individuals.
- btilly 14y ago
  If my reading of her account is correct, the person who got fired was suggestion that Adria "check out his big dongle" which is a very explicit sexual joke directed at a specific stranger (her). The joke that she's making there is that her male friend should stuff socks in his pants to shock the screening TSA agent. This joke is not targeted at anyone in particular. The comment she's replying to is a factual description of what actually happens in TSA screenings. In fact it is suspected by many that the TSA agents do this deliberately so that people will be discouraged from asking for the alternative screening. The whole situation has a "he said, she said" feeling about it. But if everything that I just read is factually correct (not at all guaranteed), then she had something real to complain about. Making the offence result in a firing seems to me to be an overreaction.
  - peterhunt 14y ago
    This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening.
    - btilly 14y ago
      This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening. Are you sure? How do you know? If my reading of her article is correct, and she was telling the truth, then she did not think so. That does not mean that she was correct. And with a he said, she said situation there is no chance of sorting things out. But your unsupported assertion of fact is not necessarily true. Her article is at http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... if you want to read it to decide for yourself whether I am reading correctly. Here is the scenario that I read from her description. She's sitting one in front. 3 guys are behind and (if she is turned) to her right. Guy #1 who is behind is talking about a presentation, she turns and agrees with him, and during their discussion he talks about forking a repository. Guy #2 is to #1's left (on the right from her view), and begins making sexual jokes about forking with #3 riffing off of that. Then shortly after they riff off of a comment from the speaker and joke, "You can thank me" then start talking about big dongles. Therefore their sexual jokes were based off of their overhearing HER conversation, and so they had every expectation that SHE would hear THEM in turn. Furthermore I get the impression that even though she was not looking at them, she believed that they were implicitly ADDRESSING HER. (I am not saying that this belief is correct, merely that this is my impression of the situation as she remembered and described it.) If so, then in no way that she would have believed that this was a private conversation. Nor is it tenable that they were accidentally overheard by her. Nor is it a surprise that she took it personally. Of course we all adjust memories of things that happened to be clearer cut than they were. There was a lot going on. I was not there - she may have misunderstood the interaction. But what she described is both a plausible scenario, and one in which her upset makes quite a bit of sense to me. And one which runs absolutely counter to the narrative that this was simply a private conversation that she accidentally overheard and overreacted to.
yarou 14y ago
This is a truly astonishing incident. What does it say about our society when an innocent joke (albeit "offensive" if taken out of context, as it clearly was) between two friends can be abused to tarnish someone's reputation? The abuser in this case (gender irrelevant) should be punished, and the victims deserve just compensation for the damage that this person has done.
jasonlotito 14y ago
I'm confused? SendGrid didn't fire the guy. So, by boycotting the SendGrid, but not the company that fired the guy, the problem is being offended and speaking up, not the firing.
- ratat 14y ago
  The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.
    - integraton 14y ago
      PyCon's response was appropriate. SendGrid's representative's response was not.
      - jasonlotito 14y ago
        What response? Speaking up?
        integraton 14y ago
        Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.
        14y ago
Zarathust 14y ago
There is also relevant finger pointing to the company that fired his employee less than 24 hours after the incident. Now that is a company that I never want to deal with!
- shardling 14y ago
  Psst. Do you have any information about the actual firing? I don't see any such links in this thread, which makes it hard to judge what's going on.
  - reeses 14y ago
    Googling the incident returns all kinds of responses, including that they were both fired. I think you're right to wonder.
ratat 14y ago
> They don't want to get treated like "a girl" That's the thing. If this isn't what she wants, then she shouldn't act like such an incredibly immature child. What she did was many times more 'immature' than what the men allegedly said. They allegedly exchanged a harmless, obviously immature joke between themselves, and should have been quieter given the setting. That's their fault. She then responds by posting a slanderous/libelous covertly-taken picture that could only be described as a "creep shot" of these men to thousands of people (under the Sendgrid brand). And accompanies it with a baseless quote that is entirely unprovable. It doesn't matter what they said, if she has no proof then she has no right, NO RIGHT, to post such claims in a public forum. What if she decided to 'teach them a lesson' and go even further with it? "OMG, two guys behind me talking about having sex with underage gurls! (insert creep shot here)". Why not? Clearly she doesn't feel the need to have any proof of her claims. Sickening conduct. My company and our partners will also be boycotting Sendgrid if they do not respond in the appropriate manner.
- paranoiacblack 14y ago
  Hmm, that 'teach them a lesson' part sounds like you're projecting, but I won't make any assumptions about your beliefs. I'm curious though, what evidence are you looking for exactly? A signed paper where both men agree that their conduct was inappropriate and violating Pycon rules or something? A recording of them saying it? Your argument seems to be built around this idea of proof of someone's speech and I'm just wondering how exactly you would have a proved it. Because it definitely happened, maybe not exactly as she retold it, but it definitely happened. P.S. Your example is extremely creepy and out of context, entirely. There's no logical reason to believe she would do that. But there's also no logical reason to boycott the company because they won't fire her either, so YMMV.
- wpietri 14y ago
  That picture was not covertly taken; the guy could clearly see the camera. Pictures can't be slanderous (or libelous); they're factual records. The quote was quite baseful, in that it was based on what she heard. All personal experience is non-provable in the sense you mean, but that doesn't mean that witness statements are meaningless. Indeed, they're a foundation of justice systems everywhere. She definitely had the legal right to do it. In her shoes, I hope wouldn't have. But then again, I'm not the one at subject to all sorts of sexual harassment. People can only take so much. Your hypothetical is a little crazed. It makes me think your screen is flecked with spittle. The guy admitted the quotes and admitted an error. He claims the forking comment was not intended to be sexual, but looking at the wording I have a hard time believing that. Certainly one could reasonably take it as a sexual joke. Also, your closing flounce is a lot less persuasive with a newly created anonymous account. One less generously disposed than I am might suspect your company and your partners are entirely fictional.
obviouslygreen 14y ago
Others have suggested that "vendetta" is too strong; I don't know about strong, but I think it could be better phrased as "severe overreaction." People, not just men, make crude and stupid jokes. Yes, I think it's likely that the majority of such humor comes from us (I am male), but honestly... the part of your comment I definitely agree with is that this goes too far to be productive or rational. I won't be boycotting SendGrid over this (aside from the fact that they haven't endorsed her actions, they provide a great service that I'd have a hard time replacing, and that's reality for you), but in line with your predicted reaction, I'll most certainly operate with an increased trepidation regarding open, casual expression around women in tech. There's a difference between offensive speech and an innocent joke. Adria's idea about what's harmful to the community is over the top and counterproductive, and that's extremely unfortunate: Just imagine if she'd said something and PyCon hadn't done anything. Then they'd have been in the crosshairs, and I'm pretty sure they realized this, which almost certainly have influenced their reaction. This is just sad, for all sorts of reasons.
shardling 14y ago
>Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. I went back and looked at Adria's comment (conveniently not quoted), and you're completely misrepresenting the situation. She didn't have a vendetta, she didn't try to get them fired. She simply asked that someone talk to them about the language which made her uncomfortable. For all I know, they got fired because of how they responded to that situation -- is there any specific information about that?
- tadfisher 14y ago
  And then she took their picture and posted it on Twitter.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
alukima 14y ago
Adria acting as judge and jury over twitter was totally wrong. She should have contacted PyCon Staff if she felt uncomfortable. That said, sexual comments at conventions get old really fast. Sure it's the first time you've made the tits or GTFO joke today but it's the billionth time I've heard it. Then there are the guys, total strangers, who want to quiz you on your 'nerd' qualifications. They also like to stand behind you when you are checking out a product or game demo, making smug comments like "she has no idea what that is", "I bet she can't even figure out how to shoot". And the worst ones, the guys who are outright hostile towards women. These are few and far between but I've had men come up to me at conventions and say "No one thinks you're special because you're a girl". No idea who they are or what I did to deserve it. The feeling that builds up for me is the exact same feeling I had when bullied at school. You let it each instance slide because individually they don't seem like such a big deal and you don't want to seem like a whiner. But at the end of the day they start to get to you and you feel less than human.
- reeses 14y ago
  "She should have contacted PyCon Staff if she felt uncomfortable." She did, and tweeted that they had responded and said they handled it.
  - alukima 14y ago
    Then she should have let it end there.
eaurouge 14y ago
So I read the post on PasteBin and also read Adria's blog post and here's what I took from it. Context matters. Dongle jokes in the presence of friends (male and female) may be fine, hilarious even, heck I'm giggling inside just typing the word "dongle". On the other hand, dongle jokes in a (not private, audible-to-others) conversation in a conference hall while representing your company are unprofessional, may be perceived by some to be sexist, and could be considered a fireable offense by your boss. Guys in tech need to realize it's not about what you think is sexist or not, it's about how your comments may make others feel. Yes, they need to be hyper aware that they're working with people with experiences wildly different from theirs; the hope is that one day such a diverse community will actually be reality. And she didn't get the guy fired. I think she went too far posting their picture. But she wasn't the one making forking and dongle jokes while representing her company as a sponsor, he was. And she didn't make the determination that that was a fireable offense, which I can see how a PyCon-sponsoring company might see it as one. Oh and she hasn't set women's rights back any. And women tend to have multiple perspectives on these things (what's sexist/discriminatory etc) as history has shown.
mouseroot 14y ago
shes dead wrong if they didnt want to be treated as girls they wouldnt call use female adjectives to describe thier talks/events shes just butthurt
tom399 14y ago
Adria tweeted that SendGrid supports her. "Hey @mundanematt, it's clear from the last 24 hours you're a bully. @SendGrid supports me. Stop trolling."
neya 14y ago
Update: Someone has created a change.org petition to have Adria fired. I think it's only fair that she is fired, considering the fact that she put two innocent men's lives at stake. https://www.change.org/petitions/sendgrid-please-fire-adria-richards https://www.change.org/petitions/sendgrid-please-fire-adria-... Also: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...
- vacri 14y ago
  Lives at stake? Please get a grip on your hyperbole. One man was fired, and we don't know whether or not he was already skating on thin ice before the event. Richards is guilty of hypocrisy, not reckless endangerment of life.
doktrin 14y ago
>It's really sad. I agree. This is an embarrassment through and through. What started as a grotesque overreaction has spiralled into a venomous shitstorm. Truly infuriating.
tapan_pandita 14y ago
It was completely in her right to turn around and tell the guys to shut up or bring it to the attention of the organisers. However, I don't think that was her intention at all. Her intention was to gain more mileage out of this. She took an issue about a couple of guys being immature and made it a sexism issue. Based on her previous tweets (the now famous penis joke that she made, a picture playing cards against humanity), I find it difficult to believe she was offended by a dongle joke. I think she saw an opportunity to use this to further her online cred and that's what she did. Her blog post is the less about the incident (and indeed less about tackling sexism) and more about herself (i find the part about the girl in the picture particularly PR-ish). It was a typical PR move that got blown out of proportion. This in no way justifies what followed on twitter, which was definitely sexist and misogynistic and very unfortunate. IMO this has pretty much pushed back much of the progress made on tackling the real sexism issues in our industry. Seeing a fellow developer get fired over something so benign (at least for most men, it would seem benign) leads to mistrust and political correctness in dealing with women in the workplace (which sucks!).

by blhack 14y ago

dmishe 14y ago

Well, what can they really say? Either throw her under the bus, or agree completely. So realistically we're down to one option.

ajross 14y ago

Let's cool down a little here. An irresponsible tweet doesn't really constitute a "personal vendetta" (it's not even personal -- as far as I can tell she never knew their names). And while the post was (apparently, I don't know what the evidence here is) the proximate cause, you really can't say that she "got [him] fired", as she wasn't the employer nor did she advocate for his termination. It's just a bad situation all around. Yes, people shouldn't be fired for bad jokes. Neither should they be pilloried by the community for losing their cool and tweeting about it.

blhack 14y ago
It went further than that, though. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...
- sp332 14y ago
  This gives a lot of context and was very helpful, thank you.
- ubasu 14y ago
  From this article: "I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop. I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so." Seems a tad melodramatic as a reaction to a private conversation. Seems to go with the Joan-of-Arc complex: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313442430848487424 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/313442430848487424
  - ajross 14y ago
    From the same blog post you just quoted: > I agreed with [the guy behind me] ... He said he would be interested in forking the repo [...] That would have been fine until the guy next to him... began making sexual forking jokes I don't see how that constitutes a private conversation. The joke was apparently interjected into a discussion she was already part of. Now, I still don't think the "public shaming" attempt was a good idea, and I certainly wouldn't support firing the guy (if that actually happened; again, no evidence at hand!). But I'm seeing the anti-Adria crowd here really bending over backwards to make this her fault. I think it's entirely reasonable to be offended by this, nor is it unreasonable to tweet or blog about it. That she got a little too hot-headed and posted a picture seems to be all anyone wants to talk about.
    - ubasu 14y ago
      She says: "I agreed with him so I turned around and said so." So she interjected herself into this private conversation, and it is not clear if the other guy's allegedly sexist comments were to her in response to what she said, or if they were just directed to his friend privately.
    - dsmithn 14y ago
      > That she got a little too hot-headed and posted a picture seems to be all anyone wants to talk about. Because that's what got the guy fired. If she had just posted a tweet complaining, or just made a blog post talking about how those kinds of comments were offensive, people would have learned but nobody's life would have been ruined. Instead she choose to post their picture online AND continue to make a big deal about it. That's a personal vendetta.
moistgorilla 14y ago
She has thousands of followers. She is in a powerful position and she abused it. Just because she wasn't the employer doesn't mean her goal wasn't something along these lines. Why else would you post a clear picture of their faces up to a public lynch mob?
- wpietri 14y ago
  What's the abuse? She described what happened right next to her.
  - moistgorilla 14y ago
    Taking a picture of two people without their permission and posting it on the internet eventually causing one of them to get fired doesn't seem like abuse to you? Why didn't she tell them to just be quiet? That's what normal people do.
    - rhizome 14y ago
      As a matter of fact, if you read her blog post about all of this, she recommends the same thing: What has to change is that everyone must take personal accountability and speak up when they hear something that isn’t ok. It takes three words to make a difference: “That’s not cool.” However, she appears to have not followed her own advice. I think it probably would have turned out differently if she had, though.
      - mturmon 14y ago
        The conference organizers ask you to not handle it yourself: see https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i..., where it says: "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member" If she had asked them to quiet down, it could have turned into a pissing match. Or maybe they would have complied. You never know how it's going to play out.
crag 14y ago
BS. I'm getting sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions. Now I do agree with you somewhat. I doubt she saw this "joke" as an opportunity to screw someone over (at least I hope so. If she did, then all bets are off); but that doesn't excuse her wrong. Her actions caused this guy to be fired. She needs to own it. Apoligize, Offer amends and move on.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Note where you stop in the causal chain: with the woman. You could blame the millennia of sexism that set up the situation. You could blame the gender-imbalanced context: it's easy for humans to be insensitive to minority views. You could blame the guy's parents and teachers for not raising him right. You could blame the guy for saying something inappropriate. You could blame his friends for not reigning him in. You could blame Adria for reporting what he said in public. Or you could blame his boss, the person who actually fired him. Ask yourself: why is she the one you chose to focus on?
  - crag 14y ago
    "Ask yourself: why is she the one you chose to focus on?" You're right. The guys need to own-up for their stupidity too. Oh that's right, they never got the chance. She didn't confront them. She snapped a picture and tweeted. And I agree about their employer. In fact, I'd love to know who the employer was?
  - basqio 14y ago
    Just because a woman is to blame does not prove sexism. It is quite reasonable to say that she holds most of the responsibility in this situation by not reacting to the comments in a professional way. The jokes were hardly sexist and more anatomical and if that bothers he she could have dealt with it in a different way. But I guess I am sexist too for having the opinion that she handled the situation incorrectly right?
  - tadfisher 14y ago
    So we need to remain eternally vigilant of the thousands of years of sexism during our day-to-day dealings? We need to be constantly thinking of the women and minorities in the room before we say anything? How is this being gender-neutral?
SODaniel 14y ago
Personal vendetta or not. A person that reacts to a private conversation (inappropriate or not) by posting hearsay about two co-workers to 1000s of followers the way she did is NOT a person I would want to work with, even less hire. She has at the very least shown very bad judgement and should not be commended nor rewarded for it.
- princess3000 14y ago
  What's private about a conversation taking place in a busy ballroom at a convention, within full earshot of (probably) dozens of people?
  - ajross 14y ago
    Actually according to Adria's blog post (linked elsewhere in the thread) the jokes were made in response to a comment about "forking" a repo from the person sitting next to them. They were riffing off of a conversation she was part of; assuming you believe her, that's "non-private" regardless of context. This whole thread is making me sad.
    - klez 14y ago
      From that same post I got that the two guys where talking, SHE interjected and then the joke was made by one of those guys (to me it isn't clear if she was still part of the conversation, but that's beyond the point).
- ajross 14y ago
  To nit on terminology: testifying about what you heard yourself is not "hearsay", by definition. I agree her judgement was bad and she shouldn't have posted the image (she has every right to post about the incident, though!). But what I'm reading here is an awful lot of bile about this woman. She's being asked to answer for someone else's decision to fire someone (there's still no documentation or testimony about this fact, FWIW). She's being attacked for "setting back women's rights". She's basically being made the target for (what I perceive to be) a bunch of anti-feminist frustration among the male geeks. And that's... just really, really ugly; sorry. She got pissed off and made a mistake, for which it would probably be a good idea to apologize. That's it. Everything else is on you guys.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 14y ago
Nah, I say let's turn it up a couple of notches. The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. Think about what does she do -- developer advocate, her site is called "butyouregirl", she does talking engagements. She is a no-name. Have you heard of her before? Doubt it. I haven't. Does the whole tech world know her name now and who she is -- "YES". Hello speaking engagements, hello millions of visitors to her blog, hello book deals about social gender issues in post modern technology landscape. Besides this, I am sure she is aware what happened before at PyCon (there as a guy who had a picture of a nude woman in one of the talks and he was escorted out and rightly so), then Jesse Noller et. al. made a strong statement that they are very intolerant to this kind of stuff (and rightly so). But I think there in lies a golden opportunity -- one little message + shitty deceivingly taken photo -- and bam! momentary boost to the top. She made penis jokes herself not too long ago. If that doesn't convince you of her motivations I don't know what will. Unfortunately public reputation, shaming and humiliation goes both ways. Tech community if anything doesn't tolerate bullshit, bureaucracy, dishonesty, and bullying. The 4 parties that played along here: *) Adria *) SendGrid *) PlayHeaven *) PSF Will ultimately have damaged their reputation. I sure hope this person has an offer on the table by now.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  >The more I think about it (after a day now), the more I realize this was an opportunity for her to become famous. I think you nailed it. Her post about the incident is strangely long and melodramatic. "I calculated my next steps." "It very much reminded me of Lord Of the Flies." "Yesterday the future of programming was on the line and I made myself heard."

SODaniel 14y ago

Pretty obvious they fired the wrong person here. If someone worked for me and posted inflammatory images/statements about/involving a co-worker they would be the one needing to worry about their job.

djcapelis 14y ago
Please clarify if it is in fact the policy of the company you work at that employees should be "worrying about their job" based on the contents of their Twitter accounts. If so, please let me know so I can ensure that I never work with you.
- dbaupp 14y ago
  Presumably the key point is not that it was on Twitter, but rather it was said in public. The medium is unimportant: its the same as if someone posted such things as a blog post, or said it on TV or whatever. You might like to treat Twitter like a private conversation, but when the posts are completely publicly accessible (and when the person has 1000s of followers) it is certainly not private.
  - djcapelis 14y ago
    IMO: unless you're in front of a podium with your employers logo on it or representing yourself as speaking for your employer, your words are your own stupid (or hell, maybe sometimes even wise) decisions.
- SODaniel 14y ago
  I am not in a position where I hire or fire people, but if so was the case I would consider her reaction to a private conversation where neither of the participants intended any harm very bad judgement. Tweeting and blogging about this with images in the manner she did clearly steps over the line where it in my opinion is 'ok'. I can absolutely guarantee that the people involved in the conversation felt absolutely ambushed by the event, and that is not a very enjoyable work environment.
- lopatin 14y ago

djcapelis 14y ago

> I cannot, in good conscience, ever do business with a company that supports that behavior. I think we need to stop doing this bullshit in general. I'd much rather have our community check each other and shame each other on Twitter than having employers step in and decide that thing X or thing Y is not okay for their employees to say in their personal capacity at a conference or on Twitter. As far as I've heard, Adria never asked for these guys to be terminated and personally, I think it was probably inappropriate for them to be. But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account. Get real.

Karunamon 14y ago
>But it's also inappropriate (read: fucking insane) to boycott a company because you don't like what one of their employees posts on their personal twitter account. What's good for the goose... I.e. if it's only fair for someone to be canned based on the postings on some random's personal twitter account, it's only fair for it to work in reverse. Employers can people based on their personal lives all the time. Also, as detailed elsewhere, this goes beyond a mere tweet.
- zem 14y ago
  here's the point: it's not only fair. in fact, by expecting sendgrid to can adria you're implicitly supporting what the other guy's company did, at which point you really have no complaint.
  - jessaustin 14y ago
    Ummm, my reading of the thread is that we're not going to do business with Adria's employer because of her actions. That's a different thing.
    - Karunamon 14y ago
      Indeed. And if her personal actions and the resultant bad press for Sendgrid causes them to ask the person in question to step down, well, going on the logic in this thread, the employer is the bad guy, not the person acting like a jackass in public. ..In which case the decision to stop or not do business with Sendgrid would be all the more justified.

ritchiea 14y ago

I think Adria is in the wrong here but I don't think it's her fault or fair to blame on her that his employer acted even more quickly and foolishly than she did by firing him. This whole situation sucks but let's try to be realistic about assessing blame. I understand why the fired individual's name is being withheld but I'd really like to know who his employer is. I would boycott that company way before I boycott SendGrid.

gkoberger 14y ago
Look at his shirt in the picture.
- ritchiea 14y ago
  Ha. Good point. Mobile games. Not my thing anyway. Easy to boycott!

katbyte 14y ago

as "a women in tech" (god i hate even saying it like that lol) i totally agree. i think what she did was absurd. It wasn't even a lewd or offensive joke. Maybe its my social group but something like that would even cause any of us (more women in tech) to even bat an eye. If it was bothersome in anyway it was they were so loud she was paying more attention to them and they private conversations and not the speaker. She should have asked them to simmer down or take it outside. And definitely dealt with it in a less public matter, it just screams "look at me i'ml so awesome give me some attention". It even could have been dealt with without identifying them. that was a low blow. And you are exactly right, the biggest issues I've had wrt my gender is that some men feel like they can't just relax and be themselves, and that makes some of them (either consciousnessly or subconsciousnessly) not comfortable. Its always funny to see how relaxed and personable some people become after i make some politically incorrect jokes/references.

Joeboy 14y ago
Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.
- BrianEatWorld 14y ago
  The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.
  - katbyte 14y ago
    Anyone can be made uncomfortable by anything, and most people will try and not make people uncomfortable, but until they know your bothered by it they can't do anything.

integraton 14y ago

As a SendGrid customer, it concerns me that SendGrid would stand behind the initiation of a public controversy under such questionable circumstances, especially one that resulted in the firing of a developer from his job. SendGrid should be in the business of email deliverability, not public shaming. Edit: I've tempered my phrasing above quite a bit and removed references to individuals.

btilly 14y ago
If my reading of her account is correct, the person who got fired was suggestion that Adria "check out his big dongle" which is a very explicit sexual joke directed at a specific stranger (her). The joke that she's making there is that her male friend should stuff socks in his pants to shock the screening TSA agent. This joke is not targeted at anyone in particular. The comment she's replying to is a factual description of what actually happens in TSA screenings. In fact it is suspected by many that the TSA agents do this deliberately so that people will be discouraged from asking for the alternative screening. The whole situation has a "he said, she said" feeling about it. But if everything that I just read is factually correct (not at all guaranteed), then she had something real to complain about. Making the offence result in a firing seems to me to be an overreaction.
- peterhunt 14y ago
  This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening.
  - btilly 14y ago
    This was a private conversation between two friends, none of whom referenced her or even knew she was listening. Are you sure? How do you know? If my reading of her article is correct, and she was telling the truth, then she did not think so. That does not mean that she was correct. And with a he said, she said situation there is no chance of sorting things out. But your unsupported assertion of fact is not necessarily true. Her article is at http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... if you want to read it to decide for yourself whether I am reading correctly. Here is the scenario that I read from her description. She's sitting one in front. 3 guys are behind and (if she is turned) to her right. Guy #1 who is behind is talking about a presentation, she turns and agrees with him, and during their discussion he talks about forking a repository. Guy #2 is to #1's left (on the right from her view), and begins making sexual jokes about forking with #3 riffing off of that. Then shortly after they riff off of a comment from the speaker and joke, "You can thank me" then start talking about big dongles. Therefore their sexual jokes were based off of their overhearing HER conversation, and so they had every expectation that SHE would hear THEM in turn. Furthermore I get the impression that even though she was not looking at them, she believed that they were implicitly ADDRESSING HER. (I am not saying that this belief is correct, merely that this is my impression of the situation as she remembered and described it.) If so, then in no way that she would have believed that this was a private conversation. Nor is it tenable that they were accidentally overheard by her. Nor is it a surprise that she took it personally. Of course we all adjust memories of things that happened to be clearer cut than they were. There was a lot going on. I was not there - she may have misunderstood the interaction. But what she described is both a plausible scenario, and one in which her upset makes quite a bit of sense to me. And one which runs absolutely counter to the narrative that this was simply a private conversation that she accidentally overheard and overreacted to.

yarou 14y ago

This is a truly astonishing incident. What does it say about our society when an innocent joke (albeit "offensive" if taken out of context, as it clearly was) between two friends can be abused to tarnish someone's reputation? The abuser in this case (gender irrelevant) should be punished, and the victims deserve just compensation for the damage that this person has done.

jasonlotito 14y ago

I'm confused? SendGrid didn't fire the guy. So, by boycotting the SendGrid, but not the company that fired the guy, the problem is being offended and speaking up, not the firing.

ratat 14y ago
The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.
  - integraton 14y ago
    PyCon's response was appropriate. SendGrid's representative's response was not.
    - jasonlotito 14y ago
      What response? Speaking up?
      - integraton 14y ago
        Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.
        14y ago

Zarathust 14y ago

There is also relevant finger pointing to the company that fired his employee less than 24 hours after the incident. Now that is a company that I never want to deal with!

shardling 14y ago
Psst. Do you have any information about the actual firing? I don't see any such links in this thread, which makes it hard to judge what's going on.
- reeses 14y ago
  Googling the incident returns all kinds of responses, including that they were both fired. I think you're right to wonder.

ratat 14y ago

> They don't want to get treated like "a girl" That's the thing. If this isn't what she wants, then she shouldn't act like such an incredibly immature child. What she did was many times more 'immature' than what the men allegedly said. They allegedly exchanged a harmless, obviously immature joke between themselves, and should have been quieter given the setting. That's their fault. She then responds by posting a slanderous/libelous covertly-taken picture that could only be described as a "creep shot" of these men to thousands of people (under the Sendgrid brand). And accompanies it with a baseless quote that is entirely unprovable. It doesn't matter what they said, if she has no proof then she has no right, NO RIGHT, to post such claims in a public forum. What if she decided to 'teach them a lesson' and go even further with it? "OMG, two guys behind me talking about having sex with underage gurls! (insert creep shot here)". Why not? Clearly she doesn't feel the need to have any proof of her claims. Sickening conduct. My company and our partners will also be boycotting Sendgrid if they do not respond in the appropriate manner.

paranoiacblack 14y ago
Hmm, that 'teach them a lesson' part sounds like you're projecting, but I won't make any assumptions about your beliefs. I'm curious though, what evidence are you looking for exactly? A signed paper where both men agree that their conduct was inappropriate and violating Pycon rules or something? A recording of them saying it? Your argument seems to be built around this idea of proof of someone's speech and I'm just wondering how exactly you would have a proved it. Because it definitely happened, maybe not exactly as she retold it, but it definitely happened. P.S. Your example is extremely creepy and out of context, entirely. There's no logical reason to believe she would do that. But there's also no logical reason to boycott the company because they won't fire her either, so YMMV.
wpietri 14y ago
That picture was not covertly taken; the guy could clearly see the camera. Pictures can't be slanderous (or libelous); they're factual records. The quote was quite baseful, in that it was based on what she heard. All personal experience is non-provable in the sense you mean, but that doesn't mean that witness statements are meaningless. Indeed, they're a foundation of justice systems everywhere. She definitely had the legal right to do it. In her shoes, I hope wouldn't have. But then again, I'm not the one at subject to all sorts of sexual harassment. People can only take so much. Your hypothetical is a little crazed. It makes me think your screen is flecked with spittle. The guy admitted the quotes and admitted an error. He claims the forking comment was not intended to be sexual, but looking at the wording I have a hard time believing that. Certainly one could reasonably take it as a sexual joke. Also, your closing flounce is a lot less persuasive with a newly created anonymous account. One less generously disposed than I am might suspect your company and your partners are entirely fictional.

obviouslygreen 14y ago

Others have suggested that "vendetta" is too strong; I don't know about strong, but I think it could be better phrased as "severe overreaction." People, not just men, make crude and stupid jokes. Yes, I think it's likely that the majority of such humor comes from us (I am male), but honestly... the part of your comment I definitely agree with is that this goes too far to be productive or rational. I won't be boycotting SendGrid over this (aside from the fact that they haven't endorsed her actions, they provide a great service that I'd have a hard time replacing, and that's reality for you), but in line with your predicted reaction, I'll most certainly operate with an increased trepidation regarding open, casual expression around women in tech. There's a difference between offensive speech and an innocent joke. Adria's idea about what's harmful to the community is over the top and counterproductive, and that's extremely unfortunate: Just imagine if she'd said something and PyCon hadn't done anything. Then they'd have been in the crosshairs, and I'm pretty sure they realized this, which almost certainly have influenced their reaction. This is just sad, for all sorts of reasons.

shardling 14y ago

>Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. I went back and looked at Adria's comment (conveniently not quoted), and you're completely misrepresenting the situation. She didn't have a vendetta, she didn't try to get them fired. She simply asked that someone talk to them about the language which made her uncomfortable. For all I know, they got fired because of how they responded to that situation -- is there any specific information about that?

tadfisher 14y ago
And then she took their picture and posted it on Twitter.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

alukima 14y ago

Adria acting as judge and jury over twitter was totally wrong. She should have contacted PyCon Staff if she felt uncomfortable. That said, sexual comments at conventions get old really fast. Sure it's the first time you've made the tits or GTFO joke today but it's the billionth time I've heard it. Then there are the guys, total strangers, who want to quiz you on your 'nerd' qualifications. They also like to stand behind you when you are checking out a product or game demo, making smug comments like "she has no idea what that is", "I bet she can't even figure out how to shoot". And the worst ones, the guys who are outright hostile towards women. These are few and far between but I've had men come up to me at conventions and say "No one thinks you're special because you're a girl". No idea who they are or what I did to deserve it. The feeling that builds up for me is the exact same feeling I had when bullied at school. You let it each instance slide because individually they don't seem like such a big deal and you don't want to seem like a whiner. But at the end of the day they start to get to you and you feel less than human.

reeses 14y ago
"She should have contacted PyCon Staff if she felt uncomfortable." She did, and tweeted that they had responded and said they handled it.
- alukima 14y ago
  Then she should have let it end there.

eaurouge 14y ago

So I read the post on PasteBin and also read Adria's blog post and here's what I took from it. Context matters. Dongle jokes in the presence of friends (male and female) may be fine, hilarious even, heck I'm giggling inside just typing the word "dongle". On the other hand, dongle jokes in a (not private, audible-to-others) conversation in a conference hall while representing your company are unprofessional, may be perceived by some to be sexist, and could be considered a fireable offense by your boss. Guys in tech need to realize it's not about what you think is sexist or not, it's about how your comments may make others feel. Yes, they need to be hyper aware that they're working with people with experiences wildly different from theirs; the hope is that one day such a diverse community will actually be reality. And she didn't get the guy fired. I think she went too far posting their picture. But she wasn't the one making forking and dongle jokes while representing her company as a sponsor, he was. And she didn't make the determination that that was a fireable offense, which I can see how a PyCon-sponsoring company might see it as one. Oh and she hasn't set women's rights back any. And women tend to have multiple perspectives on these things (what's sexist/discriminatory etc) as history has shown.

mouseroot 14y ago

shes dead wrong if they didnt want to be treated as girls they wouldnt call use female adjectives to describe thier talks/events shes just butthurt

tom399 14y ago

Adria tweeted that SendGrid supports her. "Hey @mundanematt, it's clear from the last 24 hours you're a bully. @SendGrid supports me. Stop trolling."

neya 14y ago

Update: Someone has created a change.org petition to have Adria fired. I think it's only fair that she is fired, considering the fact that she put two innocent men's lives at stake. https://www.change.org/petitions/sendgrid-please-fire-adria-richards https://www.change.org/petitions/sendgrid-please-fire-adria-... Also: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...

vacri 14y ago
Lives at stake? Please get a grip on your hyperbole. One man was fired, and we don't know whether or not he was already skating on thin ice before the event. Richards is guilty of hypocrisy, not reckless endangerment of life.

doktrin 14y ago

>It's really sad. I agree. This is an embarrassment through and through. What started as a grotesque overreaction has spiralled into a venomous shitstorm. Truly infuriating.

tapan_pandita 14y ago

It was completely in her right to turn around and tell the guys to shut up or bring it to the attention of the organisers. However, I don't think that was her intention at all. Her intention was to gain more mileage out of this. She took an issue about a couple of guys being immature and made it a sexism issue. Based on her previous tweets (the now famous penis joke that she made, a picture playing cards against humanity), I find it difficult to believe she was offended by a dongle joke. I think she saw an opportunity to use this to further her online cred and that's what she did. Her blog post is the less about the incident (and indeed less about tackling sexism) and more about herself (i find the part about the girl in the picture particularly PR-ish). It was a typical PR move that got blown out of proportion. This in no way justifies what followed on twitter, which was definitely sexist and misogynistic and very unfortunate. IMO this has pretty much pushed back much of the progress made on tackling the real sexism issues in our industry. Seeing a fellow developer get fired over something so benign (at least for most men, it would seem benign) leads to mistrust and political correctness in dealing with women in the workplace (which sucks!).