77 ms·

Diamonds Are Bullshit

• lectrick 14y ago
  It's unfortunate that there are few women who would appreciate my progressive view of these, even if I would gladly pay double for a really nice vacation and a nominal ring instead (and let's face it, it's the actual decision that matters the most, anyway)
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  • zrail 14y ago
    Anecdotally my fiancé specifically did not want an expensive ring and very much did not want a diamond. We're also trying to have the most cost effective wedding we can. We'd rather spend the money on a trip or a down payment on a house than on the wedding.
    • stephengillie 14y ago
      (I didn't realize someone would reply. Here's my deleted post:) Are young couples foregoing the rest of the expensive ceremony along with avoiding the ring? Could the price of wedding and engagement rings be one cause of the declining marital rate in the US? What happened to the price of engagement rings over the past 10 years? How well does it mirror the prices of houses in the US?
      • gliese1337 14y ago
        I don't know about your last three questions, but my wife and I did forgo the expense. Our entire wedding and honeymoon, including reception decorations, food, flowers (lots of flowers...), photos, dress (with alterations), and rings cost around $3000. I don't even know how some people are capable of spending as much money as I've heard of them spending $20,000+ for a wedding? What in the world are you spending it on? It would've been easy to spend a couple thousand more, but it wasn't that hard to keep costs down. You just have to realize that it is OK to comparison shop, and you don't have to go with the high-status, first-advertised options for everything; if you look at more than just billboards and TV ads, you can still put together a really nice event for far less money. When we went ring shopping, we decided on a budget ahead of time, and it turned out that our budget wasn't even the determining factor in which vendor we ended up buying from- it was who had the rings we liked the best. Tip, though- don't tell the salesmen that you're looking for a wedding ring; if you do, they will only show you a small, high-priced fraction of their total selection. My fiancee also decided ahead of time that she didn't want a diamond (diamonds are boring, green amethyst is much prettier), so it was very amusing when we found a genuine diamond ring on sale for only $90- much less than what we ended up spending on the rings we liked!
        • brigade 14y ago
          You can easily spend $3000 on just a photographer for your wedding. Which is actually many photographers' primary source of income.
        • vijayr 14y ago
          wow, it is awesome that she agreed to it. Not many people would. I've seen middle class families in India spend 20K USD on weddings (all of their savings). So 20K in the U.S should be nothing?
        • GFischer 14y ago
          A wedding here in Uruguay costs upwards of U$ 20.000, mostly because it's an evening party: - At least U$ 20/person in food and drinks - At least U$ 2000 for a suitable locale, rented months in advance - All the decor, music, etc. (several thousand dollars) - Wedding dress, etc. - Expenses (both church and civil I guess) Depending on the newlyweds' budget and notoriety, it can go anywhere from 100 to 2000 invitees.
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
• gkoberger 14y ago
  Logically and financially, sure... but try telling your fiancée-to-be that.
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    Try sending her this article. I'd rather be single than marry someone who has so much more emotion than logic. To put it another way: If the ring is more important to the woman than I am, then she's not marrying me, she's marrying the ring. It's a huge red flag to me.
    • 404error 14y ago
      I sent my GF the article :-D
    • pyre 14y ago
      | If the ring is more important to the | woman than I am, then she's not marrying | me, she's marrying the ring From some women's perspectives the diamond ring is 'proof' of your love.
      • stephengillie 14y ago
        A commitment to spend one's life with the other person isn't proof of love?
        • gertef 14y ago
          That's a claim, not a proof.
        • svachalek 14y ago
          You're committed to spend your entire life together but aren't willing to drop a few grand today? Uh-huh. (Just playing devil's advocate. With the argument I got.)
      • delinka 14y ago
        "If X is more important to you than her happiness..." It's kind of a two-way street - which of you is more willing to make a sacrifice for this relationship? Perhaps a compromise can be reached... -d, husband for 18.5yrs and counting
• steveklabnik 14y ago
  It's linked within the article, but it's worth pointing out that "Have you ever tried to sell a diamond"[1] is very much worth your time, and has been discussed here many times. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 1: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you...
  • mikestew 14y ago
    Not only is it linked in the article, it is very much a replay of the original Atlantic article. I didn't see a lot of added value in the article posted here, so just go read the Atlantic's.
    • burgreblast 14y ago
      Yup. I just read the Atlantic article a few days ago. This piece gave me the feeling the priceonomics author did too. I'm not much of a fan of simply rewriting content for one's blog.
  • niggler 14y ago
    There have been some interesting discussions about disrupting the diamond market as well e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4522922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4522922 It's funny to see how that article recirculates. One of my first comments on HN was a link to the same The Atlantic article (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063)
    • djloche 14y ago
      From my perspective (as someone who spent 2 years running a startup that tried to disrupt the diamond industry), I think the most difficult thing to do is to change the entrenched consumer sentiment. Without a shift in how they view these expensive purchases, there won't be disruption. This usually means spending tens or hundreds of millions of dollars on marketing the idea. I've studied and analysed what we did wrong / why we failed to gain traction - and might try to attack the problems from a different angle if we decide to give it a second shot.
• mattparlane 14y ago
  Gah! The writer needs to read this: http://www.its-not-its.info/ http://www.its-not-its.info/
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    I used to make posts like this. I'm starting to feel like these words will merge in the next 100 years, and either form will be correct for all usages. This kind of errata in our language doesn't help us do anything and it just causes confusion and frustration.
    • clicks 14y ago
      I'm going to delete this post in 30 minutes, but man, I'm just screaming to say... it is so peculiar that he consistently kept making that mistake (along with a bunch of other ones). It looks like the guy is a graduate from Stanford's business school... and is the co-founder of Pricenomics. What the heck. Edit: heh, I guess I won't delete it now (to preserve continuity of extant conversation). Sorry.
      • stephengillie 14y ago
        Because grammatical ability is correlated with business acumen? Edit: sorry Clicks it was too tempting :)
        • pyre 14y ago
          Well, there are things like proofreading, and having an editor.
        • clicks 14y ago
          Well, I think it probably wouldn't be a stretch to say that strong communication abilities correlate to business acumen. If I'm going to be reading a piece of writing that keeps on getting these basic things wrong I'm going to get distracted in a bad way.
      • michaelt 14y ago
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• arbuge 14y ago
  "So here is a modest proposal: Let’s agree that diamonds are bullshit and reject their role in the marriage process. Let’s admit that as a society we got tricked for about century into coveting sparkling pieces of carbon, but it’s time to end the nonsense." Hear hear, but good luck convincing zillions of single women that they'll be the first generation in living memory to miss out on their carbon.
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    I'd rather have someone convince zillions of single women that they'll be the first generation in living memory not to get duped by JP Morgan in 1938.
  • jpdoctor 14y ago
    The carbon is a proxy (which is missed in the article, among other things.) It's social signaling. Or to put it another way: How many $$ can your man throw away without incurring pauperhood?
    • stephengillie 14y ago
      So this becomes a social competition to see who can waste the most resources? It sounds like it has barbaric roots -- who can provide the most food / kill the biggest animal / lift the heaviest rock / travel the fastest / find the rarest material / pay someone else the most money to do so. You'll never find an end to the people who are willing to provide the same product for a higher price.
      • jpdoctor 14y ago
        > So this becomes a social competition to see who can waste the most resources? Slightly more subtle than that: Waste the resources without incurring financial hardship. That last part is important. > It sounds like it has barbaric roots Not unlike the mating ritual itself. > You'll never find an end to the people who are willing to provide the same product for a higher price. Again, it's more subtle: The social signal includes being able to discern and choose well among the competing alternatives.
• uribs 14y ago
  Isn't it much better to get very expensive gold jewelry instead of diamonds if one wants some? That's also shiny and should keep its value much better (since gold requires nuclear reaction to make).
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    The blog says that gold jewelry is also a terrible investment, but it's a much better investment than diamonds. Depending on how expensive the jewelry would be, it might be cheaper to buy your own lumps of gold and have someone craft them into jewelry.
  • gamegoblin 14y ago
    I remember reading an article about a guy who stole a lot of money, then used it to buy diamonds. He got caught. The people he stole from thought "oh, not too bad then. We'll just sell the diamonds to recoup the money." But apparently no diamond vendors would buy them at anywhere near the price the thief did because diamonds are already marked up so much.
    • webosb 14y ago
      got a link for the article?
  • boyter 14y ago
    Most of the value isn't in the gold but in the effort of making it and the markup that comes with that. You would be better of buying gold bars.
• cpursley 14y ago
  It's nice to be married to a woman who agrees. And a jewelers daughter at that!
  • bgutierrez 14y ago
    I'm interested in hearing more of her perspective. Does she agree because she is a jewelers daughter and has a better view of the industry?
    • cpursley 14y ago
      That and she's not that materially minded (at least that what she tells me....)
• drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.
  • youngerdryas 14y ago
    My wife was obsessed with not spending much money on the wedding or ring. She's a keeper.
  • clicks 14y ago
    My sister is still mad as hell at her husband for not having spent enough for their wedding (he spent about $25k), and I've heard her once or twice complain about the ring. I'll occasionally take shots at my sister for this (because, well, she's my sister and she loves taking shots at me too so it's fair). But my God I don't dare challenge the issue of spending extravagantly on rings/weddings with another woman (I once did, it didn't go very nicely for me). But... overtime here's how I've come to rationalize it: symbolism is a strong emotional asset. If it helps make the girl happy, then it's worth it -- because mental happiness is worth it; because mental health is a component of your overall state. And hey, afterall, I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc.
    • delinka 14y ago
      Nit: "...mental happiness" Emotion is all in your head after all. :-)
    • ryderm 14y ago
      > I did spend $700 on my chair, $300 on my kinesis keyboard, $800 on my LCD monitor, etc. etc. The difference is that these are all things that increase comfort and health, not only happiness. As somebody who sits at a computer all day, this has a huge impact on your back, wrists, eyes, etc.
    • Zimahl 14y ago
• Xcelerate 14y ago
  Diamonds aren't even forever. The conversion of diamond to graphite at room temperature is a spontaneous process, albeit a slow one.
• slmt 14y ago
  Marriage is bullshit.
• swang 14y ago
  Priceonomics can't seem to keep their blog up whenever they get a new update. Can someone post a cache?
  • omarish 14y ago
    Hey swang - this is the first time I've heard of this issue. Are you getting an error code from the blog? Let me know here or email me, omar@priceonomics.com.
• tokenadult 14y ago
  There is no reason to be ethnocentric here. There are plenty of world cultures in which a woman wears a simple gold ring after marriage. On the other hand, if you want to get into a serious discussion with your significant other, try violating cultural assumptions about who should pay for the wedding--it isn't necessarily the father of the bride, as it historically was in Anglo-American culture. Sometimes what the groom saves in buying jewelry for the bride is spent on the groom hosting a wedding banquet for all of the bride's relatives and friends.
• tn13 14y ago
  So true. I spent more money on my marriage than on my masters degree. Fuc. My wife has more gold and diamonds than money my family ever owned otherwise. All that stuff doesn't suite her, is locked up in locker rooms of some bank 364 days a year. (And yeah I pay for that fucking locker as well). Any discussion of selling it would lead to a WWII like situation in the home. The cost of Gold might be skyrocketing but when you actually try to sell gold ornaments or diamonds it is a different game altogether because when I walk to sell the gold not one wants to buy it unless they know me or I pester them. So this is what happens when I met a jeweler to sell a gold chain my mother had made for me when I was 2 years old. Gold typically 15 times most costlier than that time. so I was expecting at least 1000% ROI. 1. I need to first determine if this is real Gold and how pure it is. For that you will have to pay me X. 2. This chain is old and I cant sell it the way it is, it needs to be melted and converted into something else so I will lose Y value in the process. 3. Making a new ornament out of this will lead to more loss of metal during melting and hence I will lose Z. Then later he tells me that the gold is not "as pure" as I thought it to be. So eventually I make only 200% profit over period of around 12 years. (not to mention the feeling of getting cheated). Scenario of diamond seems to be lot more similar to that of Gold. Only if women had little brains.
  • gertef 14y ago
    gold jewelry price is for the art, not the mass.
    • tn13 14y ago
      No boss. I am talking about India. I am otherwise poor by any world standards but I have to buy gold.
• robot 14y ago
  The brand value of diamonds are very high. So it is valuable. Like coca-cola.
• joeblau 14y ago
  This article is interesting. I remember in Geology class when our teacher explained that you could make synthetic diamonds for a fraction of the price of a real diamond. He then asked all the women if they would rather have a natural diamond or a synthetic diamond, and almost all of them raised their hands. He then went on to explain that it was like the difference between natural ice and ice made in a freezer. He asked the question again and almost all the women still voted for natural. That day I realized the power of the diamond marketing engine.
  • jquery 14y ago
    But your geology teacher wasn't even correct. You can't make synthetic diamonds with similar color characteristics to natural diamonds at a fraction of the price. In fact, colorless synthetic diamonds are more expensive.
    • czr80 14y ago
      Not really true - it's relatively easy to make the diamonds colorless. Biggest difference is that the diamonds tend to have crystal structures that are a little rare in natural diamonds, since they grow very quickly compared to natural diamonds.
      • SteveGerencser 14y ago
        The price gap in natural vs cultured diamonds in the colorless range is far too narrow to make it a viable business model. So the effort, and profit, is made in the color end of the spectrum. Yellow and blue are the most popular, and the price gap is significant.
  • jld 14y ago
    I did a fair amount of research on this when shopping for my wife, and couldn't find any decent sized (say, larger than ~1/2 carat) clear synthetic diamonds. There were some options in yellow or pink, but I didn't find a thriving manufactured diamond industry I thought I would find. Regardless, even if I had, manufacturers of gem grade diamonds wouldn't need to undercut the price of natural diamonds by much. The cartel has done all the hard work raising the price for them already. Market them at 90% of natural diamonds and reap the rewards.
• cobrausn 14y ago
  Sure, and we all know it. But from her perspective, you probably waste all kinds of time and money on other inane bullshit for yourself. So if you actually cared, you wouldn't mind spending a bit so she gets a shiny rock to wear around. Why shouldn't she get this one thing? Also, how is this any different from fashion? Both are nearly useless raw materials that have been transformed and shaped into something people will pay money to own and wear (signaling). For diamonds, you get conflict in Africa. For fashion, you get sweatshops in Asia.
  • chrischen 14y ago
    I've been to a clothes factory in China. Probably nowhere near as bad as conflict can be.
    • cobrausn 14y ago
      Probably, but that might have more to do with Africa (and what was done there) than diamonds.
  • stephengillie 14y ago
    If she wants it so badly, why doesn't she buy herself one? If she doesn't have enough money, then she should work until she does. Or she should provide something of equivalent value, at which point this becomes a business negotiation.
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  • wutbrodo 14y ago
    This is very similar to fashion in the amount of sense it makes as a consumer. The reason this is more interesting is because of how striking it is as what essentially amounts to a conman's (DeBeers et al) success story, on a gargantuan scale. On top of that, people who buy into fashion are pretty much aware of what's going on, but I'd be willing to bet that a LARGE amount of people (myself included, until ~my late teens) are unaware that so many of the "hallowed traditions" surrounding diamond rings are marketing nonsense dreamed up a few decades ago.
• kjackson2012 14y ago
  It doesn't just pertain to diamonds. It's the same thing with expensive clothes, bags, shoes, wines, cars, gadgets, etc. It's just a way to flaunt one's wealth. It's unfortunately a side effect of our consumption-oriented society.
• jasonhanley 14y ago
  What do people think about BlueNile? Diamond prices there are about 50% of retail -- perhaps a bit closer to the true "market" value?
  • jld 14y ago
    I used Blue Nile to buy my wife's engagement ring and was very happy with the service/quality. The online customer care agents actively pushed me to buy the lowest quality diamond that would appear 'best', as there are many levels of quality that can only be seen under a loupe by a jeweler. All of these grades will appear to be equivalent to the untrained/unaided eye. She needed to get the ring resized later and it was very easy. Returned via FedEx and had it back a week later.
  • logn 14y ago
    I don't know about their margins but I found an attractive ring for 1 week's salary (vs. the crazy idea we should spend 2 months). Even if they make a nice margin you have sufficient selection and control over the 4 C's that you can save money that way. I decided to get the a very good cut and best color possible since those are visible to the naked eye. Clarity (at least at the levels offered on blue nile) is only noticeable under 10x magnification. So it make no sense to me but skimp on clarity. Then I chose between shape, and carats. The marquise shape can also save you money because it looks larger with less carats. Also say what you want about the stupidity of engagement rings, but if you're going to get one, choosing a very small diamond just looks unbalanced to me on a finger.
• antidaily 14y ago
  Shelby Gem Factory, man. She'll never know the difference.
• rwhitman 14y ago
  Please don't remind me about this. I'm pretty sure every guy knows all this already and unless you have a super hippy / progressive girlfriend (and even then..) you will ultimately find out that even the most rational women could give a crap about the economic / social realities of the diamond market and still "need" a diamond of X carat in order to impress their family and friends. DeBeer's wins. Either you get over it, or you end up heartbroken or with a very grumpy fiance.
  • MostAwesomeDude 14y ago
    Why not eschew marriage altogether?
    • rwhitman 14y ago
      Because listening to your girlfriend sob herself to sleep every other night is not so fun
  • tsotha 14y ago
    The funny thing is it's not just the guys who realize this. It's the women too. One day there will be a preference cascade and everyone will look at each other and ask "Why are we spending so much money on semi-precious stones?" But until that day...
    • rwhitman 14y ago
      There is some really bizarre complex psychology / sociology behind the whole thing that really needs to be untangled. The De Beers marketers were mad geniuses that made the world bend to their will in a way that can't be undone
  • Joeboy 14y ago
    > I'm pretty sure every guy knows all this already No! I really don't! I kind of imagine that as a middle-class British guy I'm not too far from modal HN culture, but this sounds totally bizarre and alien to me.
• ars 14y ago
  You don't have to buy your diamond at a jeweler - in fact you shouldn't unless you like wasting money. There are plenty of diamond exchanges online. You buy the diamond and the setting separately, and then bring them to any jeweler to set it. Also, you can buy moissanite instead - it's cheaper and hard to tell apart. Much better quality than cubic zirconia. Because of a stupid patent you can't buy pre-made moissanite jewelery, instead you buy the stone and the setting separately.
• evmar 14y ago
  Walmart recently ran a survey about expected costs of engagement rings and found Americans' expectations have been changing. http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2013/02/04/walmart-survey-finds-two-months-salary-for-engagement-rings-is-a-thing-of-the-past http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2013/02/04/walmart-surv... (Disclaimer: I work on the tool they used to conduct the survey, which is why I know about it.)
  • deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  • mertd 14y ago
    Was it done on Walmart shoppers? That would be a huge selection bias.
    • evmar 14y ago
      Briefly, no. You can read more about on our site (it's mentioned at the end of the article), but: we (try to) survey a representative sample of people in the US, and external validations have found we do a pretty good job of it (comparable to a more reputable polling organization).
• lelandbatey 14y ago
  Indeed, they are a scam. A trend I've observed is to create an item or have an item created with immense personal value (though not necessarily much "material value"). The most common examples of this I see are custom and hand made rings of various cheap materials with interesting and personal designs. That's the kind of thing I think is a good idea.
• Skoofoo 14y ago
  What are some cool alternatives to a diamond ring? I want to get a ring with a carbon nanotube "gem", but there doesn't seem to be a practical way to acquire that.
  • s_baby 14y ago
    http://io9.com/5902212/ten-gemstones-that-are-rarer-than-diamond http://io9.com/5902212/ten-gemstones-that-are-rarer-than-dia... All of these are rarer than diamonds and most cost less.
  • JulianMorrison 14y ago
    Amber with fossilized critters. It's lifeforms, and they're extinct. Even when we have nanotech, nobody is going to be making new ones.
  • svachalek 14y ago
    You can get rings cut from meteors (even two from the same meteor). There's a variety of looks depending on the type of meteor, they're rare, and they're "natural".
• jquery 14y ago
  What "rational" material can fit on a finger, weighs a few grams or less, is convenient enough to wear everyday, is mostly fungible (yes, diamonds are fungible at the wholesale level), is durable, insurable, and is worth any arbitrary amount you can think of depending on its characteristics? Diamonds are great for their purpose, which is social signaling at a high level.
• Swannie 14y ago
  I heard the suit is making a comeback! Forget diamonds, a Suit is a real investment in yourself!
• toast76 14y ago
  Trying to argue against engagement rings is like arguing against internet censorship. Your opinion is tainted before you open your mouth because the only people who could possibly oppose such things are cheap bastards or pedophiles, respectively. If you refuse to buy a diamond, it's because you're cheap or don't love "her" enough. No amount of hand waving or sensible logic will make up for the fact that you'll just look like an asshole. There's no logic in love, just shut up and buy her the damned ring.
  • ohsnapman 14y ago
    The most important lesson I learned recently is how little impact logic actually has on real world discussions. Way too much of what we do is driven by emotion. So, given that, instead of trying to use logic to sway someone who needs a ring, what are some tactics that appeal to emotion that can work?
    • toast76 14y ago
      The best you can hope for is a compromise. - get a secondhand stone and have it re-set. - get certified non-conflict diamond (or in my case, an Australian diamond) - get some other precious stone The best one is to get hold of a family heirloom. Costs nothing and has far greater emotional value.
  • sjtrny 14y ago
    If your other half says that it's because you don't love them enough you need to get a new partner who doesn't behave like a 10 year old.
    • lxwang 14y ago
      Nice theory, but you don't want to marry someone who doesn't behave like a 10 year old, you want to marry the person you love.
    • takluyver 14y ago
      You have to accommodate some disagreements in a relationship. Most men aren't going to disagree strongly enough on this one issue to use the nuclear option on the relationship.
• lutusp 14y ago
  I can imagine any number of men saying "How ridiculous that I have to buy a diamond!" but without extending that thought process to marriage itself. In that sense, buying a diamond is like graduating from college -- you've demonstrated a willingness to engage in possibly irrational behavior in furtherance of a widely revered symbol. This is not to say that college has no value, only that its value is often much less than the required investment. Just like marriage.
  • sjtrny 14y ago
    We do extend the same thought process to marriage, although not enough of us as shown by some of the comments in this thread. On a related note: I don't want gay marriage. I want governments to stop handing out "you are in a relationship certificates" to EVERYONE.
    • lutusp 14y ago
      > On a related note: I don't want gay marriage. No problem -- if you aren't gay, you aren't required to have a gay marriage. But ask yourself if you want to deny that right to other people. That's quite a different thing -- it's not unlike saying, "I don't want black people marrying white people." Before you reply saying, "But that's not a fair comparison -- black and white people are normal, but gay people are abnormal", consider that (a) it wasn't too long ago that black people were unfairly regarded as abnormal, and (b) there's no good evidence that being gay is abnormal, as that word is most commonly used. Also, why not ask yourself the same question that judges are expected to ask themselves before making a ruling -- which is "Where's the harm?" How does the existence of gay marriage hurt you personally? Consider that gay couples are going to live together anyway (because being gay is not a crime) -- all that changes is that the rights and traditions of civil unions extend to those couples.
      • sjtrny 14y ago
        You missed the point entirely, maybe you missed the second sentence? > I want governments to stop handing out "you are in a relationship certificates" to EVERYONE. I want LGBT equality. But beyond that, and looking at the bigger picture, I think the idea of marriage should be abolished altogether.
• SteveGerencser 14y ago
  I'm in the jewelry business. Don't really care for diamonds at all, I prefer color. But the real point is that since the mid/late 80s this exact same argument comes up every year or two. Even using the same, outdated, no longer true "facts". And it's always in the guise of an enlightened rant. I tend to think they are usually written by a guy who's girlfriend wants a diamond and he doesn't want to spend "all that money" on a rock. Its "fashion" people. It is a "luxury" item. No one has to buy them. Besides, there are some great clear alternatives out there if someone is set on a "diamond". White sapphire, white topaz, moissanite, there are even some very nice CZs out there, but I'm sure those are way over priced as well.
• robotmay 14y ago
  One of my favourite customs for propositioning marriage has, unfortunately, largely died out. In Wales, and I believe parts of Scandinavia (which opens up interesting theories as to vikings bringing the custom to Wales), a man would propose with a spoon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovespoon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovespoon To me that is infinitely more expressive and thoughtful than purchasing a transparent rock. Maybe it's because I currently live in Wales, or the fact that I carve spoons for fun, but there's a romance there which I just can't see in a ring. Unfortunately the pressures of society (especially not helped by Disney fairytale romances) seem to have brought us to the point of no return. My girlfriend knows that diamonds are worthless, but I know that were I to propose without one that there would be a part of her which felt like she was missing something; even if she didn't want to feel that way.
  • eli 14y ago
    Forgetting about diamonds for a moment, I think there's something nice about a ring: a symbol of commitment that everyone can see. Only bummer is that it's not customary for a man to wear one before marriage.
    • robotmay 14y ago
      One of my friends bought himself a mangagement ring a few weeks after he proposed because he was feeling left out :D
    • henrikschroder 14y ago
      In Sweden, engagement rings are a matching pair of plain gold bands. At the wedding, the bride adds a (nicer) wedding ring, and the groom exchanges his engagement ring for a wedding ring.
• lwat 14y ago
  If it's good enough for Priscilla Zuckerberg (née Chan) it should be good enough for anyone: A ruby engagement ring! http://www.yourengagement101.com/files/2012/05/mark-zuckerberg-engagement-ring-rubis.jpg http://www.yourengagement101.com/files/2012/05/mark-zuckerbe...
  • khuey 14y ago
    She didn't change her name.
• kyrra 14y ago
  (person I know) worked for GE (General Electric) on their industrial diamond production process back in the 90's, and I got to hear lots of fun stories from this. Diamonds that are man-made[1] are stronger (fewer imperfections) than those that are mined from the earth. Because of this, industrial diamonds tend to be man-made. (for reference, industrial diamonds when cutting hard materials, such as metals). While working on these diamonds, GE decided to start investigating making consumer level diamonds that could be sold for jewelry. They were able to produce diamonds that would have excelled when compared to natural diamonds (when it comes to the 4 Cs). One of the fun things was they could add various gases to the manufacturing process to create diamonds of various colors. There is still a decent cost associated with producing diamonds this way, so they probably would have still been expensive, but not at the levels that De Beers was charging at the time. At this point GE started to look into what would happen if they would have actually gone down this line, selling consumer-level diamonds. After a little investigation, the GE lawyers and upper-management decided to kill off the idea as it would not have been worth the hassle. De Beers started a small campaign that was discrediting man-made diamonds, and it would have gotten a lot worse if GE even tried to enter the market. GE decided it was not worth the hassle, and killed the consumer-level diamond project. De Beers has created an artificial market and they are doing what they can to prevent anyone else from entering their market. Most companies don't want to deal going up against them, so they just leave De Beers to run around gouging consumers. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond#High_pressure.2C_high_temperature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond#High_pressure...
  • maratd 14y ago
    > so they just leave De Beers to run around gouging consumers That's kind of missing the point. If diamonds were 5 bucks a piece, women would no longer be interested in receiving rings bejeweled by them. A woman wants a man who is financially secure. If you can't afford a shiny rock, you can't afford what's coming after it either, so there's no point.
    • Centigonal 14y ago
      That wasn't the point of the article -- you introduced it right after telling him (s)he's missing the point. It's a valid point, yes -- but kyrra couldn't have missed it, because no one had made it before you did.
• ChrisNorstrom 14y ago
  I laughed when MSN published this article last night http://money.msn.com/exchange-traded-fund/diamonds-investors-best-friends http://money.msn.com/exchange-traded-fund/diamonds-investors... about diamonds being an "investor's best friend" as it was called on the front page. I can't believe they'd go so low as to publish bullshit like that. At least now we know where MSN news is getting it's money from.
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• fosap 14y ago
  While De Beers business plan was/is genius, i think Swaroski topped it. While De Beers sells useless rocks for top prices, Swaroski sell glass imitates of these for similar prices.
  • alan_cx 14y ago
    It gets better. Mrs Me used to work for Swarovski, who sell "crystal", which basically differs from glass by lead content. Except, the lead content has been regulated down and now their "crystal" is essentially just fairly high spec glass. Had this "crystal" been invented today, it would be called glass.
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• guylhem 14y ago
  I see people talking about various things like the (1) (2) (3) arguments for a women to evaluate a man : (1) is the ability to provide; 2) is the willingness to forgo other things (opportunity costs to talk economics) (3) "is demonstrating to the woman's peers her husband's social standing." (signalling) Raynier posted this deep down in a reply which might be lost to you if you don't read all the comments. It would be a shame to miss it. Read it, along with the reasoning where he says such criterias would be perfectly valid for his own daughter: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5404423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5404423 It seems perfectly valid, yet I could not disagree more. We are forgetting a important (4) : you fund atrocious wars and dictatorships. That's a strong negative externality. When you see a diamonds, instead of seeing a shiny rock, you should see part of a human soul instead, a fraction of a person who died in vain for this worthless piece of rock you want for your wives or daughters to "sustain the tradition". If social convention required 1 pound of flesh taken by the knife on a living human, would you insist on it, for the sake of the tradition? (I fear many would - after all, it matches the 1,2,3 requirements) If social convention requires a diamond, which you know very well will cause war, death and misery, and if you did not say yes to the previous question, why are you insisting on it? It strikes me as illogical, inconsistent. Either you believe that human life is more important than tradition, or you don't. I can understand diverging opinions, I can hardly understand inconsistency in a system of belief, so I'm very sad to see intelligent replies advocating this 1,2,3 argument while missing the huge downside #4 is. Maybe someday the sale of things containing "natural diamonds" will be banned - just like the sale of things containing bald eagles feathers. IHMO, it should: as much as I love the market and freedom, sometimes externalities are just too big to be ignored - especially when there is also a monopolist in action, and perfect substitutes like man made diamonds.
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  • rayiner 14y ago
    Its' really hard to live life stepping on eggshells worrying about injustices to other people. At the end of the day, I bet most people on this thread drive, and there is very little else that humans do that does more violence to the environment and to other humans than the use of fossil fuels. It goes far beyond that. If you're an American, your comfortable life exists because of the American government's willingness to inflict violence on other people to maintain our status in the world. It's massively hypocritical to single out diamonds amongst all this.
• mullingitover 14y ago
  Always buy a nice-looking but cheap cubic zirconia engagement ring. If she accepts it graciously, she's a keeper. If she runs out and gets it appraised, and angrily leaves you, you dodged a bullet.
  • 3pt14159 14y ago
    The problem with this is that you are essentially lying to her while you ask her to marry you. I wouldn't be able to stomach it. In my head there are basically three options: 1. Talk rationally and convince her that no diamond or CZ engagement ring. 2. A small ring that essentially go unnoticed to a tech person's budget. 3. Do the whole 1.5 to 2.5 Carat thing. The problem with 1. is that people will think you are an asshole and her friends may question your commitment. The problem with 2. is that you know people are going to make assumptions about how well you are doing in life ("Did you see how small that ring was, wow, I thought he was in tech!") and the problem with 3. is that you are supporting a giant scam that makes absolutely no sense. "Ohhh, look at that! That stone is huge!" for the cost of $20 to 40 grand. It isn't even about the money, it is the idea of the whole thing.
    • mullingitover 14y ago
      This is a reasonable point. For me, I'm inclined to believe that if the relationship is so transactional that the diamond is a required payment, then the relationship is already doomed.
• DanBC 14y ago
  It's a bit weird to see people so against diamonds (something they don't want and don't need) and happily using dead Africans in their discussion, but when you start talking about gold or rare earth minerals that shiny gadget isn't bullshit, it's an important tool. (Never mind that a machine from 5 years ago is for almost everybody just as capable.)
  • 3pt14159 14y ago
    The underlying reason that so many are against it isn't really the bleeding africans; it is the underlying sexist tones of "The man will provide" "The man must do something that goes against his rationality to make the woman happy" "It shouldn't matter to the man that De Beers is manipulating the market, the man will provide" "It should not matter that synthetic diamonds that are not noticeably different to the naked eye can be made for a tenth of the price" The real reason isn't the blood diamond aspect. It is the male equivalent of "get in the kitchen and bake me a pie", except social expectation is for men to do the things that are expected of them, regardless of the inherit fairness or rationality.
• nullc 14y ago
  One of the most awesome things about this is that there is a tremendous profit reward from diamond consumption brainwashing— so tons of money flows into doing it. Profit available from stopping it? Probably none unless you're going to just replace it with another kind of brainwashing. Often the truth is simply out competed by manipulation in the market because the truth belongs to everyone and can't be monetized well. After seeing my girlfriend's Facebook session plastered with wedding crap and her recently married friend's Facebook plastered with baby crap it became clear to me how potentially harmful to society as a whole this grand brainwashing infrastructure— all of these advertising platforms invading every moment of our lives— we've built is… and I try to stay as far away from it as I can. Because that is all I can do: I certainly can't outspend it.
  • estebank 14y ago
    I'd love travel companies to start trying their luck with this market...
• kkshin 14y ago
  I just went through the process of whether I would purchase a diamond engagement ring for my fiancee or not. Rationally, it made absolutely no sense to me for the following reasons: 1) The idea of "blood" diamonds as well as the fat that the industry marks up diamonds to a ridiculous notion without translating any of those benefits to the societies it exploits. 2) There is no tangible benefit to a diamond ring that CZ or similar gem would not provide. That being said, my fiancee very strongly wanted a genuine diamond ring. When I explained my viewpoints and she understood and said that she did not want to force me to purchase a ring that I felt very conflicted about. At no point was our relationship in jeopardy over the issue. Even so, I knew that she really wanted a rock and it took me a while to figure out what to do. In the end I decide to get her a ring because it was what she really wanted, even though she was wiling to suppress her desires to respect mine. I wanted to respect her wishes as well. If she had threatened or had gotten upset over the matter, I might have not reached this conclusion. Maybe she's just a super shrewd negotiator. For me, the biggest blocking point is the human hardship that goes behind the diamond industry, and I was able to somewhat subdue this by seeking out a conflict free diamond provider. There are a couple around and if this is your biggest blocking point as well you should look into it. Artificial diamonds were not an option for me, because at the moment they are not able to provide colorless diamonds afaik.
  • utopkara 14y ago
    Don't refrain from buying because diamonds are hard to extract, and people have to work hard for it. But, because the whole trade is dirty, and you don't want to take part in it. All diamonds are dirty because of the conflict diamonds, there can be no non-conflict diamonds. By purchasing diamonds, you are helping to keep the prices up and funding the blood diamonds as well.
    • kkshin 14y ago
      I don't agree with your statement. Its equivalent to saying that I shouldn't consider buying ethically raised meat because its the same industry that factory farms are part of. One can identify the ethical quandaries and support producers that choose to eliminate them.
• ck2 14y ago
  Diamonds are 100% marketing in it's purest form - take a meaningless rock and make it more valuable than anything else. With enough money you could create a counter-marketing campaign over a decade to stop their attraction but I suspect they will find a way for horrible things to happen to you with that kind of profit involved.
• cageface 14y ago
  Actually I consider diamonds to be a very valuable anti-indicator. If I meet a woman that insists on a diamond worth three months of my salary as a token of my commitment I eliminate her as a marriage prospect.
  • ActVen 14y ago
    Wise move. I did the same and ended up with the love of my life who shares the same values that I possess. Social pressures will continue to push people towards things that aren't good for them. The ability to cast these aside when they don't really mean anything will serve you well for the rest of your life.
    • davidtanner 14y ago
      I think you can tell a lot about men's self image and conception of their own value as lovers by reading these comments. Congratulations on your successful marriage with a woman you want to be with!
• jellicle 14y ago
  Why are diamonds bullshit but bitcoins not bullshit?
  • drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Because I made over $1000 holding Bitcoins for a few months? Honestly, I'm not even sure what that question means?
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• cajuntrep 14y ago
  I felt this way when shopping for a diamond. I thought it was bullshit. Plus, I figured the diamond salespeople were full of shit as well.
• fatjokes 14y ago
  Articles like this are bullshit. Not in the sense that they're untrue, but in the sense it won't change a thing. Men buy diamonds because women want them. Women want them to show off to other women.
  • vijayr 14y ago
    I disagree. I knew diamonds are annoying before reading the article, but I learned so much more reading it. It is possible that some woman might read this and not insist on a diamond ring with her boyfriend, and take gold or something more valuable instead. If this happens even in one case, it is worth the time the author(s) spent on the article. Even if nothing changes as far as diamonds are concerned, it is still worth writing this article - imagine someone landing on this article and he/she hasn't heard of priceonomics before - they will read through their excellent other posts and learn a thing or two. And lastly, look at the intense discussion at HN on this article. How many articles do that? This is an awesome blog, consistently writing high quality articles. Thanks for writing this guys.
  • transitionality 14y ago
    Nothing changes overnight, but there's already informed resistance to De Beers' marketing in a significant fraction Generation Y adults. Things will only get better. In the age of the Internet, you can't maintain a Big Lie in the long term.
• rayiner 14y ago
  HN, meet Pricescope: http://www.pricescope.com/forum/ http://www.pricescope.com/forum/
• RRRA 14y ago
  Honestly, if you feel obligated to offer a diamond you need to reconsider your value, your ethic, your life and/or your mate.
• itsprofitbaron 14y ago
  On a previous Priceonomics blog post[1] in the HN discussion 'startupfounder' suggested that we needed a "Warby Parker for Diamonds"[2] which I disagreed with[3] my disagreement is also relevant with this Priceonomics post because: "Diamonds are bought, not because of what they are but what they represent. The whole point of diamonds is to capitalise on what they're representing rather than their actual worth. Their value is created through the likes of "diamonds are a girl's best friend" which is why the price is high for them. Hence the advertisements have been developed around the whole perceived value of diamonds ala. "diamond's are a girls best friend" because when you present a woman with a diamond you're presenting her with a promise - a promise that you will look after & take care of her. Which is something that most women want." [1] http://priceonomics.com/mattresses/#industry http://priceonomics.com/mattresses/#industry [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4522922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4522922 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523062
• brokentone 14y ago
  Interesting post, which sums up as so: "Nearly every American marriage begins with a diamond because a bunch of rich white men in the 1940s convinced everyone that its size determines your self worth." - I get the correlation with rich and men, but is the race baiting language really necessary?
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• RileyJames 14y ago
  Great article. Great argument to save me a fortune. If retailers only buy back diamonds at wholesale prices why isn't there a secondary market for diamonds? Wouldn't peer to peer trading of diamonds balance the market.
• Tsagadai 14y ago
  Spend some time with monkeys or apes and you will no longer be surprised by the "insights" in this article. Pieces like this are written periodically but they say nothing new, original or intriguing. Diamonds are a status symbol in many cultures much like a tree full of fruit is a status symbol if you are a gibbon. What is really interesting in this type of discussion is the way people build up massive internal models to describe and explain concepts that really are very simple and repetitive in nature. It highlights the way many of us are driven and controlled by our tendency to seek a narrative in data and to see complex patterns in place of a simpler pattern.
• prawn 14y ago
  If a synthetic diamond is a significant saving and your future fiancée must have a diamond, maybe just get the "fake" - if they run off to have it checked or otherwise discover the truth when trying to sell it, you have bigger problems. Reality is they want something to gaze at when it catches the light and for friends to fawn over. Perhaps fight the giant diamond fraud with a sneaky play of your own? Your endless research and fretting about whether the microscopic flaws will be visible will barely count unless you're marrying a diamond grader. (GF wanted a diamond. I was not so keen to buy one. Split my budget between a legit stone and surprise trip to propose overseas. Third wedding anniversary is today. In hindsight, I wonder if I should've looked at synthetic stones and gone on a longer holiday...)
• arikrak 14y ago
  While I basically agree with this article, it mainly added some stronger opinions to an Atlantic article from 1982. It didn't discuss synthetic/cultured diamonds, which recently became available at 'low' prices. DeBeers needs to convince people that a cheaper diamond is worse, even though they're really better quality! Also, how come the internet hasn't shaken up their hold on the re-selling market? If diamond sellers won't buy back diamonds from people, why can't people sell to each other online?
• Killah911 14y ago
  Amen! Married nearly a decade and no diamond ring exchanged. My wife and I both agrees on the Diamonds are Bullshit philosophy and decided not to burden our broke selves with even more debt, thereby ensuring marriage problems down the road. It takes quite a bit of work to get over a good marketing campaign, it creates peer pressure which can from friends/coworkers who all wonder if you're really married/engaged since you don't have a ring on. Screw peer pressure, yet another sign we were right for each other.
• linuxhansl 14y ago
  Oh man. I had this discussion with my now wife. The diamond ads even go as far as suggesting what percentage of your income you should spend on a wedding ring (oh and of course there has to be an engagement ring). There is even guilt instilled if you do not spend that much; as if your love and commitment is somehow measured in the price of the wedding ring. Don't fall for this bullsh*t.
• MarkMc 14y ago
  Here's an idea for a non-profit start-up: 1. Produce man-made diamonds and sell them at the same price as De Beers diamonds. 2. Use the revenue to fund education and health-care in poor African villages. 3. Market your diamonds as 'clean diamonds' and label the De Beers diamonds 'blood diamonds'. Would that work?
  • kamaal 14y ago
    Probably if you somehow ensure you don't get murdered by the criminals/mafia.
  • Ives 14y ago
    The amount of startup capital required to make a sustainable supply of man-made diamonds is probably pretty high.
• kdazzle 14y ago
  I don't think diamonds are really bullshit. People tend to add meaning to things that would otherwise be meaningless, and that meaning is compounded by the meaning added by the many peoples in society. I think that's pretty valuable, even if you try to deconstruct the dubious premises. I mean, hey, look at language. That's pretty dumb. It was made by a bunch of poor dudes sitting in caves and squawking at each other? Who would buy into that shit, am I right?
• virtualmic 14y ago
  This trend is fast spreading to India. All the traditional jewelers who used to deal in gold and silver jewelry are now shifting to diamond based ones. Of course, the main reason seems to be the huge margin as the article suggests. One group, which seems to be going on the same path as De Beers is Gitanjali Group [1], who have hired services of almost all famous Indian film industry actors to promote their products. [1] http://www.gitanjaligroup.com/home.html http://www.gitanjaligroup.com/home.html
• nannasin28 14y ago
  Social status. That's what it is all about. http://www.hqew.net http://www.hqew.net
• ankeshk 14y ago
  DeBeers today controls 35% of the diamonds. They are not big enough any more to control and manipulate diamond prices - as they used to before. Diamond prices are still high, and rising because of the demand. The demand in countries like India and China is rising. Diamonds and jewelry is the modern dowry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry Its inherent value is that it shows people that the family is well to do. Things may change with the advent of artificial factory made diamonds (already showing up, but not in big quantities). But it won't ruin the diamond prices, just create two diamond categories. It should follow the trends that the pearl industry followed after the advent of cultural pearls. Source: my Dad is a diamond trader.
  • unreal37 14y ago
    Also the artificial diamond makers have been doing a good job of keeping their prices artificially high to match.[1] They're not selling cheap diamonds (yet) so not serious competition to the big players. A 1 carat synthetic diamond still runs like $3,000. [1]http://gemesis.com/create/ring/diamond/ http://gemesis.com/create/ring/diamond/
  • Helianthus 14y ago
    It is the demand that I am unhappy with.
    • ankeshk 14y ago
      Being a minimalist myself, I know where you come from. Buying something expensive just to show others that you can buy something expensive seems like a ridiculous idea to me. But a big part of the world give a lot of importance to status and social standing. This is precisely the notion that has made money for companies like Rolex. And the haute couture fashion industry.
      • Helianthus 14y ago
        You must be a terrible minimalist. I don't think you actually are one. Don't justify haute couture in a topic like this. It's terribly out of fashion. Much later edit: I'll accept whatever downvotes are given me as long as I can say something about "Being a minimalist myself." Why did you even _assume_ that I associated myself with minimalism? My comment doesn't need to have any relevance as long as I can attack a person that attempts to pretend that _I_ want a pedigree that he thinks isn't a diamond.
• MarkMc 14y ago
  One day it will be possible to cheaply manufacture man-made diamonds that are 100% indistinguishable from natural diamonds. You might think such a development would destroy De Beers, but I'm not so sure. Perhaps girls would simply switch from wanting a 'diamond ring' to wanting a 'diamond ring with dug-out-of-the-ground certificate'?
  • ankeshk 14y ago
    Your thought is correct: factory made diamonds will just create a new diamond category. We have seen this before in the pearl industry with the advent of "cultural" pearls. Cultural pearls have not reduced the prices of natural pearls one bit.
• kaipakartik 14y ago
  Its all about social status and peer pressure. Most marketing tends to revolve around this. Of course creating a need where there isn't any works as well.
• yogrish 14y ago
  Previous HN Thread on why Diamonds are worthless. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611
• chenster 14y ago
  Everyone wants an iPHone, iPad, i-this, that, and most of them really don't have any use of it. Is that a bullshit too, I suppose? Or marketing is the bullshit?
  • transitionality 14y ago
    It's true that most iPhone purchases are due to marketing, but an iPhone delivers exactly what is promised. A diamond doesn't. Diamonds are neither particularly rare, nor last forever, nor a good investment, nor a part of any organic tradition.
• gfodor 14y ago
  Ah, another thread full of bitter men who do not want to buy a diamond because they are "worthless." I bought the girl a diamond because she wanted a diamond. It makes her happy. She says it makes her smile every day. That's "worthless", huh? If that is worthless then find me something that makes her so happy that isn't worthless and I would have bought that instead. But there is no such thing, for her. For some girls, yes, they do not want diamonds. (But I assure you, there is something they want that you will label as "irrational" and "worthless", too.) But many girls do, and men buy them for them not because they are stupid and irrational but because they are in love and because it will make the person they love happy. Life is too short to view every dollar spent as an investment and every purchase justifiable onto some balance sheet or long-term plan based upon prudent thinking. What do we work for, after all, than to earn the ability to do what we want with our money? And what better way to use that money than to make those we love happy? The bottom line is diamond rings and all that nonsense will continue to be a thing as long as it makes girls happy to have one. It could be it makes them happy because it reminds them of their husband's commitment. It could be because it reminds them of the time in their lives of their engagement. It could be because it is just shiny and nice to look at. It could be because it might be the nicest thing they own and the biggest sacrifice a person ever made, just to make them happy. According to this thread, the only reason a girl wants a diamond is because she is a selfish person who wants to wave it around her friends and show she is better than them. That's a very sad perspective and shows a lack of understanding. If you want to figure out how to get diamonds to go away you need to figure out something that will have the same effect on women that diamonds do, or you need to somehow convince millions of women to no longer feel the way they do about diamond rings and the meaning behind them. Getting up and yelling about it being a poor investment and irrational and all makes it fairly clear you do not understand why women are so obsessed with diamonds in the first place. The only reason the focus is on diamonds is because of the high price tag, not because there is some inherent moral argument being made about the nature of purchasing things irrationally because you simply want to do something nice for someone you love. I'm sure you have plenty of things you want that you don't need, but somehow you are able to compartmentalize them because they are a) not as expensive as a diamond or b) serve some "function" beyond being a shiny rock. Good for you. But really, if you want to argue about ethics and morals in consumer choices, the price tag a person pays relative to the "intrinsic value" of the object so desired should not be a part of the equation. To me, I don't give a damn what the "intrinsic value" of a diamond is on the market, I give a damn what the "intrinsic value" of a diamond (specifically the diamond I purchased) is to the person I gave it to. And in my case you will hardly find a larger gap between price and intrinsic value (in my favor) than probably anything else I've purchased.
• namenotrequired 14y ago
  This brought an interesting discussion with my girlfriend - turns out where she is from (Brazil) they don't do diamonds in wedding rings. One less thing to stress about in the future!
  • GFischer 14y ago
    I live in Uruguay, and wedding rings here (and in Argentina, and I guess Brazil too) are usually gold or gold-plated, without diamonds.
    • namenotrequired 14y ago
      Yeah, that's what she told me too :)
• junto 14y ago
  I'd really rather not marry the kind of woman that expected a large overpriced shiny rock on her hand so that she could show-off to her friends, which once married is then a piece of (relatively) worthless jewellery that will sit in a box until she dies and her child inherits it. Luckily the woman I chose to marry, preferred that our money would be better spent on putting a roof over our heads and paying for our children's education. At the end of the day, the people that sell diamonds being mined out of the earth, are a bunch of scum, trading on the poverty and blood of (mostly) war torn Africa. I would have serious doubts about any woman, that feels that their necessity for an expensive shiny stone, is worth the suffering of others.
  • locusm 14y ago
    What about the precious metals that go into your smartphone? Those same "bunch of scum" generally are responsible for digging that out the ground too. Love an idealist, so unpractical though.
    • junto 14y ago
      I was specifically referring to the diamond cartel as 'scum'. You are right, and there are real practical uses for stuff that gets taken out of the earth. I see no problem with that since most uses could be considered as a net positive. Diamonds to be a "girl's best friend" though, much less so.
• jjolis 14y ago
  My uncle Jack Jolis, a diamond dealer/consultant who has worked for forty years in every part of the globe where diamonds are mined, bought, sold and cut, written for WSJ and testified to congress on diamonds, had this comment. His words: 'Well, one man's "bullshit" is another man's "eye of the beholder" sort of thing. It is true that of the three aspects that originally made diamonds "above the rest" and therefore desirable, i.e., their rarity, unparalleled hardness, and beauty, the first two don't really apply anymore and the third is increasingly iffy as technology marches on -- but the same could be said of other objects to which we ascribe great value, i.e., "fine" art, which began as sublime and evocative interpretation of life, divinity and transcendence, but which these days more often than not is just a hodgepodge of "Emperor has no clothes" random splotches, un-made beds and (literally) piles of shit, but to which we nevertheless still ascribe great value. So go know. In any case, the "death" of diamonds has been predicted before, and by better writers and more thorough reporters than Mr. Dhar, here, c.f.: Edward Jay Epstein "The Rise And Fall Of Diamonds", 1982, -- and yet Cecil Rhodes' babies are still going, stronger and more lucrative than ever. There is certainly nothing intrinsically valuable about diamonds -- but then what does have "intrinsic" value? Even gold is largely "valuable" because of a near-universal belief and agreement that it should have value, and has done so since the dawn of recorded time. If everyone in the world suddenly decided that gold (or diamonds, come to that), no longer had any value, well, that "value" would certainly disappear -- it has happened before, to other "valuable" commodities, such as tulips in the early 17th century and other evanescent enthusiasms throughout history. But some consensuses seem to be more permanent and on solid ground than others -- and I suspect that diamonds and other precious stones are more in the "gold" class than in the "tulip" and "piles of arty shit" class.... So are diamonds really "forever"? Maybe not, but probably so. They've survived the emergence of synthetics without so much as a hiccup, and they've even survived the disappearance of DeBeers as a controlling agent (DeBeers, although still an important factor, no longer has anything like any monopolistic control -- it is just one of 4 or 5 other "important players" in the business), and the diamond industry even laughed off (with my, ahem, small contribution) the "blood diamond" non-scandal, so I'm pretty confident that they (diamonds) will carry on through such iconoclastic pinpricks and nitpicks as may appear on W's "Interwebs". So, "bullshit" diamonds well may be, but tell me -- when did being "bullshit" ever stop (or even slow down) anybody or anything, especially in these days of ascendancy of the likes of Justin Bieber and Dennis Rodman? Nevah hotchee, GI -- in fact, I'd say that bullshit is one of our great growth industries as we move heedlessly into the 21st Century, so if diamonds really are "bullshit", then this article can only constitute yet another boost for the industry.'
• arethuza 14y ago
  When we got married 22 years ago my wife was about to go into law school and I was living on a pittance doing a PhD - so we didn't spend much money on rings. These days, although she still has her original engagement and wedding rings she doesn't wear them. What she does is buy rings every year or two and designate these as her "official" engagement and wedding rings... The particularly amusing thing is that she never spends much money (I checked this morning and the rings she is currently wearing cost £12 and £55). However, they were bought in interesting places (Marrakech and Krakow) and look great - in particular her current "engagement" ring (cost £55) - has huge clear stones. Because she is now a successful commercial litigation lawyer everyone assumes they are real, although when people ask she tells the truth. Everyone assumes that because she could afford a real ring her fake ring must be real.
  • estebank 14y ago
    Well, they are real, as long as they really are in her finger they are as real as any expensive ring or a ring that came with the cereal. :)
• locusm 14y ago
  Blood diamonds are no different to blood coltan. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blood-coltan/ http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blood-coltan/
• xsace 14y ago
  Thanks god in Europe the social pressure is not as strong as it seems to be in the US, reading from the comments of you guys
• alan_cx 14y ago
  Must have missed that Bond film.
• webmonkeyuk 14y ago
  I think the author of the article is way off the mark. An engagement ring isn't any kind of a financial investment (unless you think the wedding's unlikely to happen and you want to sell the ring/diamond). It's a token of committment/love.
  • transitionality 14y ago
    Why spend thousands on a mere token if the only value is one of sentimental association?
• cateye 14y ago
  How does this story relate to this? Lev Leviev - Cracked De Beers: http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0915/046.html http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0915/046.html
• sc0rb 14y ago
  I know this and my girlfriend knows this yet I'm still shelling out more than £4000 (pounds) at Tiffany -_-
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• penguat 14y ago
  This is unfair to bullshit. Bullshit has intrinsic value as a fertilizer.
• EvaK_de 14y ago
  I tried to get an impression of how (American) women think about this, so I went ahead and posted this article in a wedding-related forum. The forum's population is about 99% female (including me). Usually the tone there is very civil and opinions are well-balanced. Members treat each other with resepct. But his time it's completely different: the reactions are crushing! I was bashed and put down like never before on the web, although I never even suggested that I agree with the author's opinion. They even went so far as to scan my older threads. They found one from half a year ago, where I pointed out another article with a similar topic, and then began to bach me in this dead topic, too. Meanwhile it seams that the mods have closed the old thread, and I have deleted the new one myself since the bashing was getting me down. What is it that makes american women so aggressive, when it comes to criticizing diamonds? I don't get it. Living in Germany, I never quite understood how you can restrict a whole culture to believe so fiercely that a piece of compressed carbon is so very meaningful. Link to the closed thread: http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/mens-view-on-engagement-rings#axzz2O5MZvUtK http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/mens-view-on-engagement-r...
• robomartin 14y ago
  > this obligation only exists because the company that stands to profit from it willed it into existence No it does not! It exists because idiots go along with this senseless idea. It's the same idiots that jump in line like little marketing-driven robots every Valentina's day and every other holiday. It's almost as if people have an API call for "time to shop for some senseless shit". In our own case, no diamond ring, no jewelry at all. We bought a frigging house, we spent a couple of weeks in the Caribean and a few weeks in Europe. There is no way a diamond or jewelry can compare to that. Oh, yes, no getting down on one knee either. What a demeaning way to start a relationship. If you want to show respect do it with the actions you take every day, not empty marketing-driven cargo-cult gestures. As for my own daughter, we are going to teach her that a moron who spends his life savings on a diamond ring is just that and someone who can't reason his way out of a paper bag. What a horrible financial decision. In jest now. Perhaps one could launch a marketing campaign to make people give programming courses as engagement gifts. Talk about a life-changing gift.
• bitwize 14y ago
  Spending lots of money on things of little value means you've got the money to spend. Don't underestimate how attractive this is to women. Even if everybody knew diamonds were BS, they'd still be the premier engagement ring jewel. Nothing says "I love you" like throwing $6000 out the window like it was nothing at all.
• fr0st 14y ago
  A woman's reaction to this blog post: me: http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bullshit http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-b... Friend: that shit is way too long me: way too long for a woman to read Friend: haha when you start bleeding out of your penis every month, then we'll talk me: hm
• rajpaul 14y ago
  The reason diamonds have such low resale value is because, unlike precious metals, a diamond is not fungible. Someone in the diamond business already has a wholesale source who provides them with a variety of stones at market prices. Then Joe Blow comes in off the street and wants to sell his stone. Why would the buyer offer the seller market price? They already have a source for market price stones. So the buyer will low ball Joe Blow. And Joe Blow will accept the low ball because it isn't easy to find a buyer for a diamond when you only have one stone because each one is unique and different people want different things.
• newobj 14y ago
  Did a single woman comment anywhere within this thread?
• Gravityloss 14y ago
  I guess that could be used as a filter - I certainly wouldn't want to date someone so gullible who wants a diamond ring. Is it really so pervasive? I'm not American but it's hard for me to believe. Here in Northern Europe, I know many couples have abandoned the idea of gold wedding rings because of the huge environmental damage that comes with gold. A titanium ring is kinda cool too. Someone can buy 5 euro hematite rings, and their marriage's been just fine, with children. In the future, the price of diamonds and gold could go down because of such trends spreading further. They will be replaced with some other, possibly just as symbolic things. Wouldn't it be much more awe inspiring to say in a ladies dinner table conversation that your fiancee is going to donate tens of thousands of dollars to a children's education project in Peru that you picked, as a symbol of his love for you? Instead of a useless rock that doesn't hold its value... Maybe such symbols of richness are not so important here as the society is more egalitarian and there are more safety networks and springboards for children's success than just your own / family / spouse's money - couple selection is a lot about what it's actually like to live with someone.
• dreeves 14y ago
  Late to the party but I can't believe no one has linked to The Onion's baby skull video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKccr8g1xCU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKccr8g1xCU
• xp3ll3d 14y ago
  Tthere is a popular company that sells "diamond simulants" http://www.secrets-shhh.com/ http://www.secrets-shhh.com/ The prices are less than 1/4 of a "real" one, and they look much better (clearer, not cloudy, less imperfections).
• bluedanieru 14y ago
  Everybody knows diamonds are worthless rocks priced in blood. The reason they retain the status they have is your girlfriend doesn't give a shit.
• Mz 14y ago
  I am late to the party. I was hoping to see more discussion of the brilliant marketing and people trying to take away some tips on how to grow their own businesses. Nope. Precious little discussion of marketing. De Beers was extremely brilliant. Everyone's short hairs seem to be caught in this vortex, contrary to the usual HN discussions. I will note that I think there is validity to the idea that willingness to pay a high "bride price" of some sort has actual value. But it's after midnight and this conversation is essentially dead already. So I think I will not waste my time elaborating. No one will read this comment anyway. :-) Later.
• Evenjos 14y ago
  I'd rather him buy me a house, a vacation, or a Ferrari. Rings are just annoying.
• noiv 14y ago
  All women discussing here, please raise your hands.
• edepstein 14y ago
  You might want to see my updated book "Have You Ever Tried To Sell A Diamond" http://amzn.to/ZA9dhC http://amzn.to/ZA9dhC --Thxs Edward Jay Epstein
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• jami 14y ago
  If you're looking to marry a woman who is the equivalent of a diamond -- a pretty thing to have with you always (well, until she gets old and decays, on a much shorter time scale than the diamond) -- and she wants a diamond, give her the dang diamond. You're not marrying her because she's already thought about blood diamonds and wondered why diamonds are still expensive when they can be made in the lab from a very abundant element. You're marrying her because pretty! Shiny! Shoes! If you want to marry someone intelligent, you may find that she considered the content of this blog post long ago and is astounded at its popularity on Hacker News, and she would prefer a ring from a bubble gum machine, or one made from ash from that volcano you hiked together, or an heirloom or something. When I decided who to marry, I kept in mind that intelligence decays much less reliably than looks. But your mileage, gentlemen mostly it seems, may vary.