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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

bradhe 14y ago
Wait wait, so this chick finds something that she thinks is inappropriate, takes a picture of the "offenders," and puts it on Twitter? Even if the comment in question was derogatory towards women in the first place (it wasn't, unless sex and big dicks are automagically offensive to women), how are people OK with that? BTW, this quote is gold: > As an advocate for digital equality, my actions today at #pycon made me feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions
- nashequilibrium 14y ago
  I think this is becoming a much harder area for guys to navigate, in the sense that, are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I don't know the answer, hopefully there will be more dialogue around this so that everyone can understand general etiquette rules when in such an environment. I believe that some guys can just be dicks but some might just not be aware that they are being offensive.
  - ternaryoperator 14y ago
    > are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? Honestly, I wish they were off the table regardless of who is in attendance. They're rarely funny, and they add nothing to the conversation.
    - bradhe 14y ago
      > I wish There it is. Certainly doesn't warrant people having their privacy violated.
    - Argorak 14y ago
      Full ACK. Sexual jokes can be very funny if told correctly, in a non-discriminating fashion, in the right context to the right people. That also means that they can backfire horribly, especially if random people around. To me, thats not even a question of sexism, many feel uncomfortable if that happens, regardless of gender. An open space conference certainly never is the right place. Also, cheap jokes about "dongles" are never worth it... please, keep it classy...
    - claudius 14y ago
      I don’t find your jokes funny either. Furthermore, they usually add nothing new to the conversation, so please just stop joking altogether. Oh wait, that goes for everything you say, so just stop talking.
  - johnny22 14y ago
    Sexual jokes during presentations are tacky no matter who is in attendance.
    - bradhe 14y ago
      But does your thinking the jokes between two friends are tacky warrant their private info (photos) being posted online?
      - johnny22 14y ago
        i didn't even imply that.
  - Xylakant 14y ago
    > are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I'd say so - but that doesn't answer the harder question: What is a sexual joke? That matter is open to interpretation and that's where public shaming becomes a problem: The individual that's the most easily offended gets to lay the blame.
- thisone 14y ago
  private conversations are private. If she was feeling that they were being inappropriate, there are other ways to handle it. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming without trying to handle it privately first. Such as me saying I find the use of "chick" in that way to be unnecessarily derogative, but she really was out of line in my opinion.
  - colabug 14y ago
    "Private" conversations held with people in close quarters (e.g. conference keynote-esqe seating) is not a private conversation. Sexual jokes create an unnecessarily hostile and unwelcoming environment, especially when women are so drastically underrepresented. I fully support her in calling them out publicly. Quietly informing the authorities does little.
    - callahad 14y ago
      > Quietly informing the authorities does little. As an aside, every PyCon attendee agreed to a code of conduct during registration, and the conference staff are available to address and remedy violations of that code.
      - colabug 14y ago
        I appreciate that PyCon has a good policy and applaud all conferences that make an effort to make their conference a safe place. Through a mix of official (staff) and community enforcement (tweets/public outcry), one day it will be truly welcoming and all members will live up to the code of conduct.
        zshprompt 14y ago
        official good. Community enforcement can easily become lynchmob.
        MrScruff 14y ago
        'Be careful about what you say when at PyCon. Otherwise someone might hear you, report you to the authorities and post your photo on the internet resulting in you losing your job'. You have a truly strange concept of welcoming.
- zshprompt 14y ago
  funny story, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. They wanted to get rid of her for sometime but the actual crime she was convicted of was literally "wearing male clothes"
peterhunt 14y ago
This was a private conversation between two individuals. This reeks of a witch hunt to me.
zshprompt 14y ago
Its a tough call, but I will say that it is not clear who the bully is in this situation. If the comments were made directly at someone, I am sure all will agree that this is grounds for consequences. However is it really a "safe space" if people are shamed publicly for what someone finds offensive BEFORE the matter is brought up to STAFF? I mean the two dudes in the photo may have grounds to say that they are the ones being harassed.
- colabug 14y ago
  It's not about her being offended by a particular comment, nor is it required that said comment be directed at her. The issue is the environment that is created when such things are quietly tolerated. Sure staff could have been involved, but then it's not a teachable moment, just another moment suffered in silence while the "authorities" handle the situation for her. It may seem like a small event to you, but I'd suggest reading about what I like to call "death by a thousand papercuts" (via @skud). There are TONS of "little" things that happen everyday that can be dismissed as insignificant, but they add up to an unwelcoming environment.
  - jdunck 14y ago
    Staff were involved after the fact. The Code of Conduct, which these attendees agreed to, makes it clear that this behavior is not allowed. Very often with bad behavior, the offender is anonymous and intentional, and the subtext is: "what are you going to do about it?" Was this so bad? Should she have called out these people in this case? That question misses a larger point. So many such incidents (and much worse) go unchallenged that I'm happy Adria felt comfortable calling it out and asking the community to stand for the ideals it claims to hold. There's work left to be done, but we're heading in the right direction.
    - zshprompt 14y ago
      Agreed. It would be very bad if this went unchallenged. Its fantastic that women feel comfortable enough to speak out when they are made uncomfortable. But I still respectfully disagree that posting their picture BEFORE confronting them with staff was a good idea.
nnja 14y ago
As a female attendee of Pycon this year I was overwhelmed by all the friendly people I met. Now maybe my sense of humor is juvenile or coarse but what was overheard is a joke I'd probably make myself. Keep in mind Pycon was attended by plenty of minors so making adult themed jokes in a crowded room was really not the smartest move. Regardless it clearly states in the Code of Conduct (https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/) that the correct action is to find a staff member and report it and NOT post someones picture on twitter attached to hearsay. If the comments were directed at OP that's a different story but that doesn't seem to be the case. When I go back to Pycon next year I don't want to be treated differently and as a sound minded adult I certainly don't need people to censor themselves around me.
- zshprompt 14y ago
  Thank you. I agree with you 75%. Just because you would make this joke does not mean that someone cannot find it offensive. Adria was offended, and good for her for speaking up.
  - ianschenck 14y ago
    Yet later she posts about playing cards against humanity. So Hitler, dead babies, and afterbirth are hilarious but a sexual innuendo is not. Got it.
    - colabug 14y ago
      The card game didn't have the same audience as the comments made. Also you are making assumptions about how she plays the game and what she would find funny.
      - zshprompt 14y ago
        agreed card game is completely irrelevant in completely different setting. very funny game btw.
      - ColdFingers 14y ago
RougeFemme 14y ago
It sounds like it was so crowded that it was hard to have a conversation that could be considered "private", that is, not easily overheard. To me, this would be like saying something offensive at work while on an elevator or in the corporate cafeteria. I may be looking directly at someone else while saying it, but if others can easily overhear it, is it really "private"? Having said that, I would not have tweeted their photos, but I might have said something directly to them without or "before" involving staff. . .which might also be considered a violation of the Code of Conduct.
mr-hank 14y ago
Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us. My second comment is this, Adria has an audience and is a successful person of the media. Just check out her web page linked in her twitter account, her hard work and social activism speaks for itself. With that great power and reach comes responsibility. As a result of the picture she took I was let go from my job today. Which sucks because I have 3 kids and I really liked that job. She gave me no warning, she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my fate. Let this serve as a message to everyone, our actions and words, big or small, can have a serious impact. I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise. Again, I apologize.
- adriarichards 14y ago
  Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launches, I also hear about the experiences of women working at startups. In both cases I offer suggestions, ideas and mentoring to help the developers become problems solvers. Sometimes the answer is our API or not answering email after 7pm while other times it about being assertive and shedding impostor syndrome. The forking joke set the stage for the dongle joke. Yes, this time I decided I didn't want to argue my perspective. I decided instead to accept it bothered me and took action based on the PyCon Code of Conduct. It sounds like if I'd said something about the forking you would have denied it having a sexual association. Not sure if I smiled but I'm also unsure what facial expression you would have expected. I just got done writing my blog post you can read here: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... See you next year.
ianschenck 14y ago
What just blows my mind, is that Adria keeps referring to this as an issue against females. The comment (as clarified by the terrible perpetrator elsewhere) was about a part of male physiology and not directed towards any person, male or female. She just keeps repeating how this is some sort of female issue. I frankly don't see the connection. I do see how some puritanical folks could be upset, because you know, sex is terrible. I could see how the humor is crass. Adria didn't rescue some poor downtrodden female in distress, she took a sexual innuendo that offended her and blew it up publicly. She mentions a few times playing cards against humanity at Pycon. http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ I'm not sure how "mecha-hilter", "dead babies", "afterbirth", or "eating all of the cookies before the AIDS bakesale" are less offensive than "big dongles". I guess I have to trust her as a the "Joan of Arc" that she is. I will be honest with you, she scares the crap out of me. Who's next? What's the next juvenile comment that ends someone's job with a publicly posted picture? I don't want to work with her - how do I know my picture won't end up on twitter with some "This guy was talking about mounting his scsi" caption. This isn't activism, this is emotional terrorism. As an aside, I feel like the women in tech might misunderstand a lot of us - which is nothing new, who DOES understand us. We didn't grow up the jocks, the cool kids, or the prom king. We larped. We played D&D. We played MUDs. We sat up late coding. We were the dorks. We got wedgies and swirlies. Our chocolate milk was constantly taken by bullies. We got knocked out cold in dodge ball. We were tread on for most of our lives. I think coming into the tech world with the attitude that men need to be stood up to and knocked down is just going to come across to many of us as the same bullying attitude we grew up with. I think if most women in tech sat down with just about any neckbeard I can think of, they would be amazed at how friendly and awesome we are. We are not "the man" you're trying to overcome. We're simply people, who program, and we are happy that other people are entering the field. And really, we don't want to be crass or offensive. We are actually well known for our extremely awkward social skills. Just pull us aside and ask us kindly not to do that - you'd be surprised how nice we want to be. But what do I know, I'm no longer an engineer, I'm just a (male) housewife. My (female) partner is the software engineer.
- colabug 14y ago
  Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being puritanical and easily offended. Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doesn't excuse behavior that causes a hostile, sexualized, or otherwise unwelcoming environment. I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. You claim that male engineers (which you referred to as neckbeards) just need to be told that their behavior isn't OK and that everything will work out fine. You know what, I've tried that approach many, many times and it always backfires. The first reaction is quite similar to what you have above. Blame the person for being oversensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Then other defensive reactions ranging from yelling to ostracizing the female from the group follow. Rarely, after lots of back and forth emails and other draining communications (where I have to do tons of research in order to educate them about male privilege and other concepts), the issue is resolved. This successful resolution has happened maybe three times in my career. Guys, if you are faced with a complaint that something was sexist, not cool, etc., please, don't let your first reaction be the defensive reaction we see all the time. Take time, think it over, ask for more information so that you can understand her position. You might just find an opportunity to grow as a person.
adriarichards 14y ago
Here's context: The guy behind me to the far left was saying he didn't find much value from the logging session that day. I agreed with him, turned around and said so. He then went onto say that an earlier session he'd been to where the speaker was talking about images and visualization with Python was really good, even if it seemed to him the speaker wasn't really an expert on images. He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing development https://us.pycon.org/2013/schedule/talks/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/schedule/talks/. That would have been find until the guy next to him... began making sexual forking jokes I was going to let it go. It had been a long week. A long month. I had been on the road since February and PyCon was my 5th and final conference before heading home. I know it's important to pick my battles. I know I don't have to be a hero in every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a tech conference and be a nerd. But... like Popeye, I couldn't stands it no more because of what happened next: Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, "You can thank me, you can thank me". That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, "Sponsor". They started talking about "big" dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered. Was this really happening? The rest of the story I've posted on my blog: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...
- ianschenck 14y ago
  Can you please explain, because it seems obvious to you but not to me, how a crass joke about male anatomy is inherently anti-female. Can you also please explain why going public was the best immediate course of action. Lastly, would you have been offended if the joke came out of a female's mouth (as asked below)? I've been in a situation where a young female engineer was in a very abused situation, and it took me a much thought to figure out how to handle it, but immediately going public was definitely not the right choice. Thank you.
  - chrisfs 14y ago
    I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these people later
MrScruff 14y ago
As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers. I don't think this cultural difference is because women and minorities are more oppressed here. I think it's more a result of the simplistic view some Americans take on issues of discrimination. Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe people do feel oppressed here and there's just less of a culture of complaining. I'm not convinced though.
- Argorak 14y ago
  Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up. The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it got cancelled.
  - MrScruff 14y ago
    Ok, that's possibly unfortunate wording but it could have referred to the attendees rather than the presenters. At the time the complaint was that they hadn't applied quotas to the presenters which is not the same thing as discrimination.
    - Argorak 14y ago
      Not wanting to discuss that in detail (again), but the initial complaint about brit ruby was okay and also accepted by the conference. The whole thing afterward was sadly very messy. This blog post sums it up quite good: http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/ http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/ In my opinion, its not a good example, as it is a relatively civil discussion about an important topic gone horribly wrong.
  - gngeal 14y ago
    "they had nothing to back that up." You mean that they received an insufficiently broad (or overlapping) range of presentation submissions?
Sasha_ 14y ago
What an outrageous, holier-than-thou, nasty, self-righteous woman this is.
Sasha_ 14y ago
What an outrageous, holier-than-thou, nasty, self-righteous woman this is.
scman 14y ago
Who's worse in this situation, the men having a private conversation, or the woman who was eavesdropping and decided to make this into her personal witch-hunt? Posting their pictures online was far worse than what they said. The fact that she sees herself as "Joan of Arc" just shows how self-righteous she is. I would be very concerned if I were working with her.
- oh_sigh 14y ago
  I'm not on the side of Adria in this fight, but I don't agree with your points. First of all, they were not having a private conversation. Presumably Adria wasn't utilizing some telescopic microphone to record their whispers. She was just sitting near them, and heard them speaking. That is not eavesdropping.
Arrow198 14y ago
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 I guess it's only not okay when men do it, huh? Adria, you are a bigot and a hypocrite. A generally vindictive, petty, spiteful child.
einjen 14y ago
http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=10114996 http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=101... Americans are crazy. Look to Norway.
johngalt 14y ago
Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?
- legitsource 14y ago
  I would be surprised if she lost her job over an incident in that hypothetical. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that the man would be in trouble for harassment or taking her picture.
- johngalt 14y ago
  My guess is this: Male picture taker is excoriated for invading her privacy, and the posting the picture was 'intimidation'. She would have lost her job due to his 'abuse'.
- revelation 14y ago
  You would be kicked from any sane conference for the picture taking alone. Thats a big no-no without explicit permission.
- antihero 14y ago
  Reversing the genders doesn't really work because they come from an unequal footing in the first place. Of course, if you reversed all of history and they were female dominated events with a long history of intimidating an harassing males, perhaps the test would stand up. That said, this woman's behaviour is a massive overreaction and exceptionally irresponsible, and has led to something horrible happening. If I were here I'd be doing everything I can to make it right.
  - johngalt 14y ago
    What other kind of behaviors would you find unacceptable for a man but not a woman? Do you consider yourself a sexist?
  - claudius 14y ago
zshprompt 14y ago
Now here is someone who deserves to be banned: compare and contrast https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5402826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5402826
- kstrauser 14y ago
  Yeah. They were sitting a few feet from me. I caught a whiff of the smoke and my first thought was "are you freaking kidding me?" I don't care what you do in your own home, but toking up in a crowded room at a tech conference is just jackassery.
kanja 14y ago
Two men were victimized. Full stop. This doesn't help end victimization of women. This is insane because it's so self defeating. All this does is give ammo to the people who were against the changes being made this year.
alukima 14y ago
My first reaction to this was that she was being overly sensitive. As several others pointed out she admits that she played Cards Against Humanity while at the conference and obviously that seems far more offensive to most than dongles and forking. Any girl that works in a place with a highly skewed male to female ratio has to have a cut off. While working at a game company I let little jokes like this slide because I thought they were funny and they didn't offend me at all. Then it got a little worse and it eventually turned into "Oh alukima is grumpy today, her boyfriend must not have given her any dick last night" and when I told someone no, we couldn't do x "on your period?, I'll just take this up with [male supervisor]." I eventually quit. I don't think it's like that in every unchecked environment but in the future I will speak up much earlier. I'll probably be called overly sensitive then and I'll probably agree with that. But it's worth to keep it from escalating.
- thisone 14y ago
  From my experience, there can be a lot of one-ups-manship in the office. Between men or between women. If your environment has this type of atmosphere, it probably will escalate until you make it known where your line is. I don't think it's a problem to make your line known. People, men and women, interact with others differently. Some of my coworkers are massive flirts for example, I'm not. Their line is different from mine, and that's okay as long as we respect each other.
xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago
Petition to get Alex his job back: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...
barney-mcgrew 14y ago
Eh. This woman just needs some deep fucking.
- kaoD 14y ago
  Now you made her point valid. Thanks.
  - barney-mcgrew 14y ago
    That's not all. Today I've also closed my eyes and it caused a chair to temporarily disappear. Pretty cool, huh? Anyways, she's just upset about a few comments that people made to each other in public. I think she's just an inexperienced, sensitive person who would benefit from my earlier suggestion.
fingerprinter 14y ago
I just happened on this thread, even if a day old. Un-fucking-believable. I'm disappointed nearly all around here. Disappointed in pycon for actually kicking them out. Very disappointed that some would say posting their picture was fine (hint: it was not). Utterly disappointed they lost their jobs over this. I still can't believe they lost their jobs over this. What a sad state of affairs the world is in when someone's twitter rant (with no proof, mind you) gets someone canned. Additionally, I'm flabbergasted that so few seem to think that Adria is, of all things, NOT the bully in this situation. The way she handled it was sensationalist, abusive, slimy and, most of all, cowardly. Look, I get it, Adria was offended. We've all been there. I hear someone say something racist around me, I offer up a "not cool, dude" and move on. Handle it maturely, rise above and walk away. Or better yet, explain it. Too intimidated to explain it to them? Fine, write about it in the abstract. What Adria did was as low as it comes. Could those guys have used some better judgement? Sure. Were the alleged jokes appropriate? Mildly not appropriate (but lets not get hyperbolic here...they were MILDLY not appropriate). Should they have been kicked out of the conf? No, someone should have talked to them about code of conduct. Should they have been fired? WTF? NO! And, lastly, Adria's hypocrisy would be amusing if not so sad. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 Freakin' absurd.
- mr-hank 14y ago
  The PSF did not kick us out, they pulled us from the main convention and got our side of the story. I gave a statement, apologized and thanked them for upholding the cons integrity. They felt I was sincere and let us leave of our own accord. I was also the only one who was let go.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - selenamarie 14y ago
    Thanks for continuing to speak in this thread. As someone who has not spoken up when I felt objectified or uncomfortable in the context of sexual jokes at technical conferences, I am relieved by how you've handled this. I wouldn't say I feel suddenly comfortable with speaking out to someone directly, but let's say that I feel a bit more like if I did speak to someone directly, they might not attack me. It's an unfortunate fact that speaking up often has far more downside than upside for women professionally. It's only recently I think that women have had enough status in the tech community to speak up and not be a) blacklisted or b) harassed by whoever they spoke up to. Clearly, this thread demonstrates that lots of people still feel that their ability to say whatever they want, whenever they want, trumps all. It makes me sad, to say the least. This is a big community, and I hope you find a new job soon. If there's something I can do to help, you can ping me on twitter or gmail.
beigelightning 14y ago
It's interesting how Adria attaches the importance of dealing with these men since they were sponsors, but then when dealing with it went completely from her personal platform. As SendGrid, her company is a sponsor, shouldn't she have run her response/reaction through the proper channels? This of course had an effect (hopefully short term) on the comment maker, but I think Adria will find in the long run she just shot herself in the foot in the tech space as far as further employment is concerned.
bobwaycott 14y ago
Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964, investigating the role religion played in the development, acceptance, and perpetuation of the South’s attitudes and behaviors toward race, class, and gender. I get on guys' cases all the time when they're being obliquely and overtly sexist, especially in mixed company. I also point out to women when they're putting up with sexist behavior, because it's so ingrained in our culture that too few even recognize it properly. To say I'm pretty well steeped in both the academic and practical sides of gender politics, identity, and sexism would put it rather mildly. However, I don't go ape-shit and publicly humiliate someone for making a potentially sexist joke among friends, because I have spent years rationally and academically evaluating whether or not someone is actually attempting to propagate bigotry and discriminatory behaviors--and this is the baseline for sexism, not whether or not a person approves of a statement that includes anatomical or sexual content. To reiterate, years of studying gender issues from a historical and philosophical perspective have shown rather conclusively that not everything sex-related is sexist. The "big dongle" statement was not in any way a 'sexist joke'. It was an anatomical joke, albeit a childish one on the level of potty humor. Anatomy != sexism. The forking comment, as explained by mr-hank, was not in the slightest bit sexist. Forking is the sincerest form of flattery (short of implementation, that is). People talk about forking repos all the time. I ask people if they've "forked [person's] repo" on the regular. I honestly don't even care if the guy said, "I'd fork his repo" in that typical, suggestive tone-of-voice. Why? Because for all I know as an outsider, the guys having the conversation could be homosexual, and not to put too fine a point on it, but homosexual men have been the victims of some absolutely disgusting and horrific sexism and discrimination (and much worse). Also, homosexual men don't heavily trend toward making lewd comments that are directed at women, especially where dick comments are concerned. But even beyond trying to keep that consideration in mind, dick jokes or comments that are made between men without any obvious sign that the potentially offending comment is intended to be overheard ought to give everyone pause before sounding the Sexism Alert. Yes, guys talk about dicks at times and in places that are probably not appropriate. Kind of the way children talk about poop and farts and pee at times and in places that are probably not appropriate. You know what else I hear a fuckton of at times and in places that are not appropriate? Breasts. Penises. Sluts. Periods. Boyfriend issues. Husband problems. Boob jobs. Male celebrity fantasies. 50 Fucking Shades of Grey. All of these from women. All the time--in offices, conferences, churches, cafes, restaurants, bars ... you name it. You wanna know how frequently I hear women talk about breasts (theirs or someone else's), or periods (theirs or someone else's), or the ways in which [insert body part] is changing during pregnancy, or how hot [insert attractive male celebrity] is, or how juicy 50 Shades is? It's everywhere. Moreover, I can't even count the number of times I am in professional meetings with clients and notice [mostly younger] women adjusting their bras right in the middle of the meeting. Hey, I know those things get damn uncomfortable, ladies, but it also gets uncomfortable sitting through a meeting for two hours, crossing and uncrossing my legs to give my dick some space to not be a total pain just for existing between my legs. And guess what I never do? Adjust in the presence of women. Ever. And to be perfectly transparent, I usually ignore it all. I'm one who pretty much defaults to giving women a pass because of all the stupid shit they've dealt with over a long history of men being complete assholes. I mean, really. A woman could make the most sexist comment I've ever heard and I'd just give it a shrug; but I'd say shit to a man if he was even obliquely offensive. And yet, on this one, sounding the alarm was wrong. This wasn't sexism. Inappropriate? Sure, I'll grant Adria that. There were way too many people surrounding the exchange that it would have been better to not make the dongle comment--especially given that there was a woman in close proximity (and that's not a sly way of suggesting they should have made the comment if a woman was not in close proximity). It was an improper forum for such a comment. But to turn around and smile and take a picture, post it to Twitter, and then continue on calling oneself Joan of Arc? Christ, that is beyond the pale. Just as the men who made the childish dongle comment agreed to a Code of Conduct, so did Adria. And just as she wanted them to abide by the Code, so should she have. I don't recall there being anything in the Code of Conduct that said one had the option to A) inform conference staff, or B) post a person's picture to Twitter if they say something you don't want to hear. [edit: spelling errors & wording]
neferious 14y ago
Sexism is sexy.
selenamarie 14y ago
I hope people here realize how far some people will go when they feel they are given permission to harass others: https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656 https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656 This is just awful. And the people who are taking part in the harassment are responsible, not anyone else.
- hilljgo 14y ago
  may I ask what started all this?
  - selenamarie 14y ago
    Trolls are harassing Jesse Noller because of the role he played in responding to http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...
    - hilljgo 14y ago
      ah, which was thishttp://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/ http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/ right?
      - selenamarie 14y ago
        No, that is a separate incident: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop...
- awa 14y ago
  The hatemail and harassment is awful. However, I do think pycon staff dropped the ball by not making sure photos taken without consent were taken down/deleted when the complaint was being resolved.
- lawnchair_larry 14y ago
  Being that you "thanked" Adria for her deplorable behavior, I'm not sure that you're in a position to speak out against harassment on this issue.
Xanza 14y ago
Honestly, as a male developer, it's incidents like this that fully and completely turn me away from taking any form of misanthropic misogyny seriously (aside from the obvious). You're attending a public function with hundreds, if not thousands of people and you truthfully believe someone, somewhere, is not going to say something to upset you or to say something you disagree with? No, stop it. Just grow up or get out; you're actions are not akin to that of Joan of Arc as you so blasphemously decided that they were (who by the way changed the course of history as we know it, you arrogant git), instead they are more akin to that of a bickering child who wishes to see their sibling 'get into trouble' because something they said didn't sit well in your own opinion. The skinny of it is he said something you didn't like, you blew it out of proportion (remember, you're supposed to be an adult and have the ability to process things accordingly) and this man lost his job; yet you're trying to convince me that you're the victim here? Just leave.
- thisiscrazy 14y ago
  It defiantly makes me want to avoid PyCon with a 10 foot pole from now on, lest I get fired for joking around near a women.
pixiegod 14y ago
Adria, I am a big supporter to equal rights. I am of hispanic origin, and even raised catholic, i believe in gay rights, womens rights, and am as big a tree hugger that you will ever meet. I actually stop to confront people who protest day laborers (while Adria combats her demons behind a blog/twitter etc), and have stood toe to toe with minutemen, and multiple groups of not so happy looking skin head tattoed guys... when my daughter tries to quit anything, i p;ush her just as i would any child of mine, regardless of sex...and as such she is a four year old who is ahead of her class mathematically, uses a computer (i cant tell you how happy i am when i saw her boot her machine, log in, and launch firefox and type in "p", found "pbskids.org" and proceeded to play her game....at age 3 and a half)... I am philisophically on Adrias side, but i do break on one count...when sexist talk and sexist ideas are actually used to hinder a womans rights and hinders a womans progression in ANY way, i will roll up my sleeves, jump into the foray and defend any abused person, whether or not its "my fight" to get into. Adria, sorry...i dont know you...but this was over the top. There are many things we men get blamed for that are truly just over generalized jokes, but i dont anyone to town over it...being forgetful...not being able to multitask...not being clean...all of these things dont mean anything unless they are being used to really abuse you... my wife shoulkd be brought up on charges for all the "male bashing jokes" i am subjected to...and sadly, i hvae known women like you...the jokes against males, against whomever you see is a target of your angst is ok...but god forbid if anyone who has no control over you at all makes some sophmoric poop joke...then we must have his head on a platter for opressing your delicate sensibilities...
dirtyoldmick 14y ago
https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 HOLY CRAP I AM OFFENDED!!!
drlloyd11 14y ago
Perhaps we could segregate the sexes again. A long black curtain will separate the men and the women. That sounds fun!
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
nnnslogan 14y ago
She posted a picture of two guys and made public allegations about their conduct which resulted in their termination. To me this looks like grounds for a defamation lawsuit. Did they give permission to use the image of them? Did they admit to making these alleged jokes that she took offense to? There's something seriously wrong with this. I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and say they were gay bashing or using racial slurs, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves. This is seriously messed up.
- andrewdupont 14y ago
  You could've read this thread to find the answers to most of your questions. Yes, the two gentlemen in question did make these jokes; one of them admits as much in this thread, and said so to the PyCon organizers when they investigated the incident. Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves. You might not be familiar with defamation law in the United States, but understand that truth is an absolute defense against defamation. Nobody is disputing the facts of the incident (the actual content of what was said), and Adria's interpretation of the jokes (whether you agree with it or not) is clearly in the realm of opinion. I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and say they were gay bashing or using racial slurs, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves. Yet ask yourself: does this happen in the real world? Is there an epidemic of false, Twitter-aided public shamings? We've already established that this isn't an example, since no facts are in dispute. Maybe the implications of this incident aren't as far-reaching and scary as you think.
  - Smudge 14y ago
    You're right about the defamation. However: > Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves. That is to say, they had an opportunity to defend themselves to the PyCon organizers. Who, subsequently, did not kick them out. From what I understand, after discussing the situation and hearing both sides (and, presumably, their apologies), PyCon issued them a warning. At least one individual then left of his own accord. Where they had no opportunity to defend themselves was against the public shaming (and subsequent outcry) brought about by Adria's twitter post. At least not immediately, and by then the damage was done (I see that later one posted a comment on HN). Regardless of what the law may or may not say, or whether or not they crossed any lines (and I believe they must have, to at least some degree, for Adria to have felt so strongly about it), Adria really did not give them any opportunity to even apologize, let alone present their side of the story. Perhaps their jokes were truly indefensible somehow. But it hurts the community when, instead of affording each other some form of due process and making an effort to raise awareness and education, we choose arbitrary scapegoats and pursue vigilante justice.
ipsocannibal 14y ago
It seems from the comments from the individuals involved in the incident that the "perpetrators" of said offensive have been genuinely apologetic and remorseful. While Ms. Richards although apologizing for the fact that one of the jokers lost their job has not really apologized for making this a big stink over social media. I agree, if you have a concern use the Code of Conduct to your advantage or talk to them directly but why take their picture and post it on twitter with some vague description what you think they said if not to shame or humiliate them publicly. Well, why would she apologize? Being a media personality, (that what she is, a tech PR person that gets in front of people and talks for a living, ignore the Tech. Evanglist BS), using social media effectively is probably integral to her business model. If she admits that the original posting to twitter was uncalled for then its akin to saying she can't do part of her job in an ethical manner. So what is she to do, double down of course. Instead of being an adult and admitting she made a mistake as well, she needs to play the "Joan of Arc" card in order to garner more sympathy and divide the audience. Sure she makes herself look like an asshole to some but doing it but at least she saves face with a lot of people she hopes to potentially sell her services to. Instead she should admit that she got ticked off and decided to use her considerable PR skill to make an example out of two people. Well guess what, pay back is a bitch. I just checked your blog and it's down. It seems cloudfire isn't helping you, and by the Out of memory error message that's returned, (which by the way, if you are a "tech evangelist" you should know is incredibly insecure to display error messages like that on a production website) it seems like that DDOS is working. The internet is a double edged sword and it seems like it's swinging back her way. From my point of view, this is the ultimate in fairness. Her actions caused a person to lose their job, (I don't believe for a second that if she had not posted to twitter, if she had gone to the con staff or directly confronted the jokers, that anybody would have lost a job.) so she should lose an equivalent dollar amount in lost job opportunities and page views.
dc0de 14y ago
What's next, are they going to go out and get the news, television programming, and all other media outlets to stop the sexism? Why are they trying to ruin all conferences? Why does the court of public opinion not target those outlets? Oh, because they can't get any traction. That's why.
swhitt 14y ago
Didn't GitHub's progress-bar screen while you were waiting for a fork used to say "Hardcore forking action!" or something like that? I think I have a shirt that says something along those lines too. Weren't those guys celebrated for their incredible humor?
jaja911 14y ago
So what if you offended? Why should anyone have to worry about offending everyone? I find your assertion that because I am a white male I somehow have more privilege and my accomplishments are somehow less significant then a women offensive. Why are you offending me please stop! Seriously i'm sure Christians are offended by openly gay couples, should a gay person be fired for "offending" someone by his lifestyle? Muslims are offended by seeing a uncovered women, should they be allowed to fire her because they are offended? What makes your definitions of offensive anymore valid then theirs? I also find your belief that somehow your opinions on what is offensive is more valid then other peoples.
dmishe 14y ago
Nice image for sendgrid, they should be thankful. Although SES is faster already.
wazoox 14y ago
What I'll remember from all that: you can lose your job and be publicly smeared and shamed by joking with your friend at a conference. I certainly wouldn't ever want to come at any such conference, at any price. This is political correctness gone completely crazy.
xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago
Petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...
thelarry 14y ago
I snicker every time i hear the word dongle in a meeting...
etherael 14y ago
I got downvoted for saying it at the time and later quoted out of context on shithnsays, and I wish I wasn't in a position to say I told you so, but: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982330
teklord 14y ago
Adria is an idiot because of this. She's also an anti-white racist, and often says things that are blatantly sexist about men, which is hilarious because she's constantly going on about racism and sexism as if she's the last line of defence in a world of intolerance. I've lost what little respect I had for this woman. She should be boycotted from participating in events like this in the future, as far as I'm concerned.
Macsenour 14y ago
I don't know if I'll ever go to PyCon. But if I do, I'm not saying anything but "hello" and "good bye".
rmrfrmrf 14y ago
Thank you, Adria, for fighting the good fight. I hope that the voices of support for you drown out the rampant hate that you're receiving. Seems like HN turns into a complete shithole the second a woman "has the nerve to choose to be offended" or whatever bullshit these misogynist assholes peddle. The benefit that I always see from situations like this is that it empowers the women who, in the past, have been too nervous to call people out on their shit. Just know that you're doing amazing work and are paving the way to creating an environment of gender equality.
- beedogs 14y ago
  Oh for fuck's sake.
- truthtacular 14y ago
  I second rmrfrmrf here. People are acting like it's easy or fun to be the one to stand up and try to do what's right. It isn't easy or fun and part of the reason people don't do it is that when you stand up, you become a nice visible target.
Pinatubo 14y ago
Firing someone for saying something mildly offensive within earshot of a woman is not going to make the community more accepting of female colleagues.
Dookie4u 14y ago
http://imgur.com/ac1Reue http://imgur.com/ac1Reue
yaelwrites 14y ago
Asa woman who hangs out at tech events, I've had people make all manners of offensive jokes around me. And a really great way to handle it is to talk to them about it. Or ignore it. Or talk about it loudly in front of them with my friends. Putting someone on public blast for something overheard, and then writing a douchey post about how you're creating safe space for future generations... is just pathetic. Be a !@#$ adult about it.
IsaacSchlueter 14y ago
So, some people were acting immaturely at a tech conference, violating the CoC. They offended someone with their antics, and most likely embarrassed their employer, a sponsor of said conference. The employer might have been a bit knee-jerk in their reaction, but maybe not. No matter how many children you've got, publicly embarrassing the company at a sponsored event is certainly ample grounds for termination. I am not a member of the python community. But I've gotta say, it's nice to see that it was handled in the way that it was. And then you people. This Hacker News crowd. Jesus H Christ. You're talking about how Adria failed to use her power responsibly? Give me a break. If I was sitting where she was, I might have done the same exact thing. When you are childish in public, and behave in a manner that the organizers of a community event do not want you to behave, you get kicked out. When you make an ass of yourself while waiving a company logo around, you can expect to have your career impacted. It's unfortunate that such an example was made of them. It is not a wise strategic move, clearly, because doing so mobilizes the asshat army, as we're seeing. The non-apology http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 is just disappointing. My hope is that the boys involved in this incident can learn from it, and behave more appropriately when in public.
- law_mclawyerson 14y ago
  how about this? https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect. She violated such a code of conduct herself and didnt actually report to staff; even by her own admission. This was twitted out and an army of angry whiteknights informed someone on staff.
  - IsaacSchlueter 14y ago
    > army of angry whiteknights Please refrain from racist comments.
    - vacri 14y ago
dfsfdsfsdf 14y ago
Great job Adria, now men really won't want women at their tech conventions.
herdrick 14y ago
Hey everyone - before commenting, please notice how many people have already commented with essentially your opinion. No need to pile on. What we have here is a cascade of overreaction. HN and other communities are overreacting too. Think how much better it'd have been if, for example, PlayHaven had waited a day or two to think through this (assuming we've already got the story right, which is unlikely). That applies to you too. Let's just take it easy for the time being. Probably by tomorrow we'll have a clearer view of the facts. Don't try to hurt someone on the internet, especially when others are doing the same.
lsiebert 14y ago
You can debate whether she should have been offended, but it's clear that she was offended. It's possible to offend people unintentionally. Given that, her actions are totally understandable. I doubt that she intended to get the guy fired.
spocktacular 14y ago
The question of what is "appropriate" behavior is not something that has an objective definition. It is a subjective judgement which depends on the participants involved. If someone in a conversation is made to feel uncomfortable by the conversation, it is incumbent upon the participants to understand why, and make an informed decision on how and whether to modify their behavior. Rejecting a person's objections to a given behavior out-of-hand is tantamount to telling that person "we don't care whether you stay or leave." We can foster an inclusive industry by instead saying "we want everyone to participate, and we want to understand what you're saying when you say what we're doing makes you feel uncomfortable." In the end, it's not a male vs female or race vs race thing - it's just a question of adopting essential patterns of civil collaborative engagement.
tripleggg 14y ago
This is absolutely insane! A man makes a private innocent joke, a woman complains, the man get fired. Meanwhile women (and men) are free to make violent jokes about men's penises getting cutoff, hitting men in the crutch, etc. And all this on TV for millions of viewer! For example see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkl_oLSKQc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkl_oLSKQc And nobody has a problem with that. What the FUCK!
tripleggg 14y ago
OMG I just read the comment from the real victim, the guy who got fired and he is apologizing! DUDE what are you apologizing for? She should be apologizing (will never happen). Your employer should be apologizing as well. But YOU have done absolutely nothing wrong. At the very least I hope your apology in insincere and you're only doing it to get another job, which is somewhat understandable.
tripleggg 14y ago
By the way, let's not forget that besides Adria Richards, there is another party to be shamed and boycotted: PlayHaven. I am pretty good at what I do and I would never ever in a million years work for them or anyone like them. Good engineers are in demand and thus in a position of some influence. Don't take the victim mindset. Your employer needs you at least as much as you need them. Boycott PlayHaven. They need to know there are consequences. It's the only way anything is going to change. I saw a petition to re-hire the guy who got fired. Fuck that. I know I wouldn't want that job back.
- tripleggg 14y ago
  This goes for Adria Richards' employer SendGrid as well. Andria has publicly embarrassed you and put on the blacklist among many good engineers. I would never work for you or any other company that has position reserved for "developer evangelists."
ewitch 14y ago
What a bunch of melodrama (on all sides, but the anti-Adria faction is definitely uglier). These are adults? Glad I never got into Twitter, what a waste of time and energy.
lkjlkj 14y ago
Yes. OMG Yes. She lost her job. Praise god this stupid bitch isn't gainfully employed anymore.
alison_lowndes 14y ago
I think you all need to spend a few weeks in rural Africa and realise how fuckton crazied we westerners can get at times. (Am nicking that phrase if thats ok, @bobwaycott?) Word!
skwulf 14y ago
I've been nerding it up my whole life. (And pretty much still giggle every time I hear the word "dongle." Come on! It's just a funny word.) The sexism I have experienced has less often come from men in tech, and most often been from the general population - men and women alike. That's just an aside. I'm not gonna comment on the specifics of this situation because I'm not sure any of us will ever have the facts. All I ask is that people don't use this as an opportunity to spew aggressive, hate-filled hyperbole. It doesn't help anyone's arguments. Let's try to rise above the estimation that the internet is nothing but a cesspool of angry trolls and shut-ins, and use situations like this to have open, practical dialogue. Who wants to cumbaya with me? (No, that's not a euphemism, and I will socially shame anyone who claims otherwise.) (Oh, god, this just went full #meta.)
vr6 14y ago
Honestly, I cant speak to what happened here as Im not sure what to think other than both US government and now its citizens are working to maintain police state rather than a free country. Beyond that, I happen to work in an environment where women are not treated fairly or given the same opportunities as male sw developers. I survive it, try not to be part of the problem, but it sucks! There really is a gender inequality problem in the tech industry and I think both sides are part of the problem. Both sides conduct themselves in ways that propagate the issues. Beyond that, even tech woman within their own gender group become more detrimental to each other than the males. It's sickening! How do we truly begin to solve this on all layers? I guess the first step is awareness within all layers of the issue, and agree on all sides there are problems that cut both ways, and then we must be willing to resolve it on all layers. We cant just hold one gender responsible, we all are responsible. But really how best to do this??? Single White Female Systems and Sw Developer
CitizenTekk 14y ago
Full disclosure: I'm a girl with three older brothers and have been around a ton of guy-humor. --- Hey everyone, I do feel really bad for "mr-hank." I personally would not have been offended by his comments ... I probably would have found them funny. I go to a lot of tech conferences (and I have 3 older brothers), but girls joke about things, too. I'm just not one to freak out about the word "dongle" or "fork." The implications seem fairly innocent to me. But listen, it was Playhaven who sparked this controversy. The funny part ... is that Anonymous touts freedom of the internet ... their founding principle was to be against internet censorship. They attacked the Westboro Baptist Church for taking down a YouTube video of Tom Cruise. So, I'm really surprised they went after SendGrid over a freedom of speech case on Twitter. There's no doubt that Richards has the right to report on something that happens in real-time. That's a basic right for citizen journalism. I come from a journalist and analyst background, so am pretty passionate about the freedom to report. Long story short, I think there's a lot of attention on the gender gap in technology right now and it's feeling very forced and uncomfortable ... i.e. lots of press and publicity. I think empowering, rather than squabbling, is really important right now. This gender gap change has to come from the top (as Cisco pointed out recently in their awesome statement about not being very supportive and dedicating to doing better). http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC It's the long-standing corporate powers who need to be symbolically "fired" (or otherwise reprimanded) - not mr-hank. And it was Playhaven who started this unjust controversy - not citizen journalism by Adria Richards.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Meh1919 14y ago
@bobwaycott. You swear too much for my personal comfort. Do you feel uncomfortable with your life? Have you turned your back on God? Embrace God and give up the potty talk. Does anyone remember Michael Bentine?
JadedOkie 14y ago
I think she got this totally wrong this man got fired he had a family, and according to him she is the one who needs to get her mind out of the gutter. She ruined this mans life because she felt a calling to defend gender equality in coding? Who are you the messiah of the tech world? Now we have to hear about how she never intended for anyone to get fired blah blah blah. Guess what lady someone got fired you posted that pic to a huge social media site and you knew it would spread I smell an attention whore! How is this huge mess you have made going to do anything for the betterment of women? To the man who said he was sorry, look you made a bad joke and that was it don't further this ridiculous cause by apologizing that just gives her validity. If anyone should apologize it should be her for not even giving you the chance to apologize.
annasaru 14y ago
From what the guy has said (one of the two guys), there was no warning, no complaint at the time. Just a picture taken. This lady had a size-able twitter audience that she tried to exploit. So it was unfair to the male who got let go for what seems a very minor thing.
LeonTrollsky 14y ago
These American Corporate Slave games are enjoyable to watch. Sick the ees upon each other, watch them gore and splat and splatter. Once a victor is determined, ers have one last nice suprise: Maximum pain for all who fight! There are always further aces who can do the job, thank heavens.

Wait wait, so this chick finds something that she thinks is inappropriate, takes a picture of the "offenders," and puts it on Twitter? Even if the comment in question was derogatory towards women in the first place (it wasn't, unless sex and big dicks are automagically offensive to women), how are people OK with that? BTW, this quote is gold: > As an advocate for digital equality, my actions today at #pycon made me feel like Joan of Arc, minus the visions

nashequilibrium 14y ago
I think this is becoming a much harder area for guys to navigate, in the sense that, are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I don't know the answer, hopefully there will be more dialogue around this so that everyone can understand general etiquette rules when in such an environment. I believe that some guys can just be dicks but some might just not be aware that they are being offensive.
- ternaryoperator 14y ago
  > are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? Honestly, I wish they were off the table regardless of who is in attendance. They're rarely funny, and they add nothing to the conversation.
  - bradhe 14y ago
    > I wish There it is. Certainly doesn't warrant people having their privacy violated.
  - Argorak 14y ago
    Full ACK. Sexual jokes can be very funny if told correctly, in a non-discriminating fashion, in the right context to the right people. That also means that they can backfire horribly, especially if random people around. To me, thats not even a question of sexism, many feel uncomfortable if that happens, regardless of gender. An open space conference certainly never is the right place. Also, cheap jokes about "dongles" are never worth it... please, keep it classy...
  - claudius 14y ago
    I don’t find your jokes funny either. Furthermore, they usually add nothing new to the conversation, so please just stop joking altogether. Oh wait, that goes for everything you say, so just stop talking.
- johnny22 14y ago
  Sexual jokes during presentations are tacky no matter who is in attendance.
  - bradhe 14y ago
    But does your thinking the jokes between two friends are tacky warrant their private info (photos) being posted online?
    - johnny22 14y ago
      i didn't even imply that.
- Xylakant 14y ago
  > are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I'd say so - but that doesn't answer the harder question: What is a sexual joke? That matter is open to interpretation and that's where public shaming becomes a problem: The individual that's the most easily offended gets to lay the blame.
thisone 14y ago
private conversations are private. If she was feeling that they were being inappropriate, there are other ways to handle it. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming without trying to handle it privately first. Such as me saying I find the use of "chick" in that way to be unnecessarily derogative, but she really was out of line in my opinion.
- colabug 14y ago
  "Private" conversations held with people in close quarters (e.g. conference keynote-esqe seating) is not a private conversation. Sexual jokes create an unnecessarily hostile and unwelcoming environment, especially when women are so drastically underrepresented. I fully support her in calling them out publicly. Quietly informing the authorities does little.
  - callahad 14y ago
    > Quietly informing the authorities does little. As an aside, every PyCon attendee agreed to a code of conduct during registration, and the conference staff are available to address and remedy violations of that code.
    - colabug 14y ago
      I appreciate that PyCon has a good policy and applaud all conferences that make an effort to make their conference a safe place. Through a mix of official (staff) and community enforcement (tweets/public outcry), one day it will be truly welcoming and all members will live up to the code of conduct.
      - zshprompt 14y ago
        official good. Community enforcement can easily become lynchmob.
      - MrScruff 14y ago
        'Be careful about what you say when at PyCon. Otherwise someone might hear you, report you to the authorities and post your photo on the internet resulting in you losing your job'. You have a truly strange concept of welcoming.
zshprompt 14y ago
funny story, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. They wanted to get rid of her for sometime but the actual crime she was convicted of was literally "wearing male clothes"

peterhunt 14y ago

This was a private conversation between two individuals. This reeks of a witch hunt to me.

zshprompt 14y ago

Its a tough call, but I will say that it is not clear who the bully is in this situation. If the comments were made directly at someone, I am sure all will agree that this is grounds for consequences. However is it really a "safe space" if people are shamed publicly for what someone finds offensive BEFORE the matter is brought up to STAFF? I mean the two dudes in the photo may have grounds to say that they are the ones being harassed.

colabug 14y ago
It's not about her being offended by a particular comment, nor is it required that said comment be directed at her. The issue is the environment that is created when such things are quietly tolerated. Sure staff could have been involved, but then it's not a teachable moment, just another moment suffered in silence while the "authorities" handle the situation for her. It may seem like a small event to you, but I'd suggest reading about what I like to call "death by a thousand papercuts" (via @skud). There are TONS of "little" things that happen everyday that can be dismissed as insignificant, but they add up to an unwelcoming environment.
- jdunck 14y ago
  Staff were involved after the fact. The Code of Conduct, which these attendees agreed to, makes it clear that this behavior is not allowed. Very often with bad behavior, the offender is anonymous and intentional, and the subtext is: "what are you going to do about it?" Was this so bad? Should she have called out these people in this case? That question misses a larger point. So many such incidents (and much worse) go unchallenged that I'm happy Adria felt comfortable calling it out and asking the community to stand for the ideals it claims to hold. There's work left to be done, but we're heading in the right direction.
  - zshprompt 14y ago
    Agreed. It would be very bad if this went unchallenged. Its fantastic that women feel comfortable enough to speak out when they are made uncomfortable. But I still respectfully disagree that posting their picture BEFORE confronting them with staff was a good idea.

nnja 14y ago

As a female attendee of Pycon this year I was overwhelmed by all the friendly people I met. Now maybe my sense of humor is juvenile or coarse but what was overheard is a joke I'd probably make myself. Keep in mind Pycon was attended by plenty of minors so making adult themed jokes in a crowded room was really not the smartest move. Regardless it clearly states in the Code of Conduct (https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/) that the correct action is to find a staff member and report it and NOT post someones picture on twitter attached to hearsay. If the comments were directed at OP that's a different story but that doesn't seem to be the case. When I go back to Pycon next year I don't want to be treated differently and as a sound minded adult I certainly don't need people to censor themselves around me.

zshprompt 14y ago
Thank you. I agree with you 75%. Just because you would make this joke does not mean that someone cannot find it offensive. Adria was offended, and good for her for speaking up.
- ianschenck 14y ago
  Yet later she posts about playing cards against humanity. So Hitler, dead babies, and afterbirth are hilarious but a sexual innuendo is not. Got it.
  - colabug 14y ago
    The card game didn't have the same audience as the comments made. Also you are making assumptions about how she plays the game and what she would find funny.
    - zshprompt 14y ago
      agreed card game is completely irrelevant in completely different setting. very funny game btw.
    - ColdFingers 14y ago

RougeFemme 14y ago

It sounds like it was so crowded that it was hard to have a conversation that could be considered "private", that is, not easily overheard. To me, this would be like saying something offensive at work while on an elevator or in the corporate cafeteria. I may be looking directly at someone else while saying it, but if others can easily overhear it, is it really "private"? Having said that, I would not have tweeted their photos, but I might have said something directly to them without or "before" involving staff. . .which might also be considered a violation of the Code of Conduct.

mr-hank 14y ago

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us. My second comment is this, Adria has an audience and is a successful person of the media. Just check out her web page linked in her twitter account, her hard work and social activism speaks for itself. With that great power and reach comes responsibility. As a result of the picture she took I was let go from my job today. Which sucks because I have 3 kids and I really liked that job. She gave me no warning, she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my fate. Let this serve as a message to everyone, our actions and words, big or small, can have a serious impact. I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise. Again, I apologize.

adriarichards 14y ago
Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launches, I also hear about the experiences of women working at startups. In both cases I offer suggestions, ideas and mentoring to help the developers become problems solvers. Sometimes the answer is our API or not answering email after 7pm while other times it about being assertive and shedding impostor syndrome. The forking joke set the stage for the dongle joke. Yes, this time I decided I didn't want to argue my perspective. I decided instead to accept it bothered me and took action based on the PyCon Code of Conduct. It sounds like if I'd said something about the forking you would have denied it having a sexual association. Not sure if I smiled but I'm also unsure what facial expression you would have expected. I just got done writing my blog post you can read here: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... See you next year.

ianschenck 14y ago

What just blows my mind, is that Adria keeps referring to this as an issue against females. The comment (as clarified by the terrible perpetrator elsewhere) was about a part of male physiology and not directed towards any person, male or female. She just keeps repeating how this is some sort of female issue. I frankly don't see the connection. I do see how some puritanical folks could be upset, because you know, sex is terrible. I could see how the humor is crass. Adria didn't rescue some poor downtrodden female in distress, she took a sexual innuendo that offended her and blew it up publicly. She mentions a few times playing cards against humanity at Pycon. http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ http://instagram.com/p/W3htw7gaR5/ I'm not sure how "mecha-hilter", "dead babies", "afterbirth", or "eating all of the cookies before the AIDS bakesale" are less offensive than "big dongles". I guess I have to trust her as a the "Joan of Arc" that she is. I will be honest with you, she scares the crap out of me. Who's next? What's the next juvenile comment that ends someone's job with a publicly posted picture? I don't want to work with her - how do I know my picture won't end up on twitter with some "This guy was talking about mounting his scsi" caption. This isn't activism, this is emotional terrorism. As an aside, I feel like the women in tech might misunderstand a lot of us - which is nothing new, who DOES understand us. We didn't grow up the jocks, the cool kids, or the prom king. We larped. We played D&D. We played MUDs. We sat up late coding. We were the dorks. We got wedgies and swirlies. Our chocolate milk was constantly taken by bullies. We got knocked out cold in dodge ball. We were tread on for most of our lives. I think coming into the tech world with the attitude that men need to be stood up to and knocked down is just going to come across to many of us as the same bullying attitude we grew up with. I think if most women in tech sat down with just about any neckbeard I can think of, they would be amazed at how friendly and awesome we are. We are not "the man" you're trying to overcome. We're simply people, who program, and we are happy that other people are entering the field. And really, we don't want to be crass or offensive. We are actually well known for our extremely awkward social skills. Just pull us aside and ask us kindly not to do that - you'd be surprised how nice we want to be. But what do I know, I'm no longer an engineer, I'm just a (male) housewife. My (female) partner is the software engineer.

colabug 14y ago
Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being puritanical and easily offended. Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doesn't excuse behavior that causes a hostile, sexualized, or otherwise unwelcoming environment. I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. You claim that male engineers (which you referred to as neckbeards) just need to be told that their behavior isn't OK and that everything will work out fine. You know what, I've tried that approach many, many times and it always backfires. The first reaction is quite similar to what you have above. Blame the person for being oversensitive and blowing things out of proportion. Then other defensive reactions ranging from yelling to ostracizing the female from the group follow. Rarely, after lots of back and forth emails and other draining communications (where I have to do tons of research in order to educate them about male privilege and other concepts), the issue is resolved. This successful resolution has happened maybe three times in my career. Guys, if you are faced with a complaint that something was sexist, not cool, etc., please, don't let your first reaction be the defensive reaction we see all the time. Take time, think it over, ask for more information so that you can understand her position. You might just find an opportunity to grow as a person.

adriarichards 14y ago

Here's context: The guy behind me to the far left was saying he didn't find much value from the logging session that day. I agreed with him, turned around and said so. He then went onto say that an earlier session he'd been to where the speaker was talking about images and visualization with Python was really good, even if it seemed to him the speaker wasn't really an expert on images. He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing development https://us.pycon.org/2013/schedule/talks/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/schedule/talks/. That would have been find until the guy next to him... began making sexual forking jokes I was going to let it go. It had been a long week. A long month. I had been on the road since February and PyCon was my 5th and final conference before heading home. I know it's important to pick my battles. I know I don't have to be a hero in every situation. Sometimes I just want to go to a tech conference and be a nerd. But... like Popeye, I couldn't stands it no more because of what happened next: Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, "You can thank me, you can thank me". That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, "Sponsor". They started talking about "big" dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered. Was this really happening? The rest of the story I've posted on my blog: http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

ianschenck 14y ago
Can you please explain, because it seems obvious to you but not to me, how a crass joke about male anatomy is inherently anti-female. Can you also please explain why going public was the best immediate course of action. Lastly, would you have been offended if the joke came out of a female's mouth (as asked below)? I've been in a situation where a young female engineer was in a very abused situation, and it took me a much thought to figure out how to handle it, but immediately going public was definitely not the right choice. Thank you.
- chrisfs 14y ago
  I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these people later

MrScruff 14y ago

As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers. I don't think this cultural difference is because women and minorities are more oppressed here. I think it's more a result of the simplistic view some Americans take on issues of discrimination. Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe people do feel oppressed here and there's just less of a culture of complaining. I'm not convinced though.

Argorak 14y ago
Actually, brit ruby was initially called out for calling themselves a "diverse conference", which was a very valid point: they had nothing to back that up. The resulting shitstorm was inappropriate, though, and I am very sad that it got cancelled.
- MrScruff 14y ago
  Ok, that's possibly unfortunate wording but it could have referred to the attendees rather than the presenters. At the time the complaint was that they hadn't applied quotas to the presenters which is not the same thing as discrimination.
  - Argorak 14y ago
    Not wanting to discuss that in detail (again), but the initial complaint about brit ruby was okay and also accepted by the conference. The whole thing afterward was sadly very messy. This blog post sums it up quite good: http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/ http://testobsessed.com/2012/11/diverse-discussions/ In my opinion, its not a good example, as it is a relatively civil discussion about an important topic gone horribly wrong.
- gngeal 14y ago
  "they had nothing to back that up." You mean that they received an insufficiently broad (or overlapping) range of presentation submissions?

Sasha_ 14y ago

What an outrageous, holier-than-thou, nasty, self-righteous woman this is.

Sasha_ 14y ago

What an outrageous, holier-than-thou, nasty, self-righteous woman this is.

scman 14y ago

Who's worse in this situation, the men having a private conversation, or the woman who was eavesdropping and decided to make this into her personal witch-hunt? Posting their pictures online was far worse than what they said. The fact that she sees herself as "Joan of Arc" just shows how self-righteous she is. I would be very concerned if I were working with her.

oh_sigh 14y ago
I'm not on the side of Adria in this fight, but I don't agree with your points. First of all, they were not having a private conversation. Presumably Adria wasn't utilizing some telescopic microphone to record their whispers. She was just sitting near them, and heard them speaking. That is not eavesdropping.

Arrow198 14y ago

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 I guess it's only not okay when men do it, huh? Adria, you are a bigot and a hypocrite. A generally vindictive, petty, spiteful child.

einjen 14y ago

http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=10114996 http://www.vg.no/sport/ski/skiskyting/artikkel.php?artid=101... Americans are crazy. Look to Norway.

johngalt 14y ago

Time for the bigotry test: Lets reverse the genders. It's a woman making the sexualized comments to a friend, and a male attendee eavesdrops. Then he takes a picture her without her consent. Immediately posts said picture online. She loses her job. What would the response be?

legitsource 14y ago
I would be surprised if she lost her job over an incident in that hypothetical. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that the man would be in trouble for harassment or taking her picture.
johngalt 14y ago
My guess is this: Male picture taker is excoriated for invading her privacy, and the posting the picture was 'intimidation'. She would have lost her job due to his 'abuse'.
revelation 14y ago
You would be kicked from any sane conference for the picture taking alone. Thats a big no-no without explicit permission.
antihero 14y ago
Reversing the genders doesn't really work because they come from an unequal footing in the first place. Of course, if you reversed all of history and they were female dominated events with a long history of intimidating an harassing males, perhaps the test would stand up. That said, this woman's behaviour is a massive overreaction and exceptionally irresponsible, and has led to something horrible happening. If I were here I'd be doing everything I can to make it right.
- johngalt 14y ago
  What other kind of behaviors would you find unacceptable for a man but not a woman? Do you consider yourself a sexist?
- claudius 14y ago

zshprompt 14y ago

Now here is someone who deserves to be banned: compare and contrast https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5402826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5402826

kstrauser 14y ago
Yeah. They were sitting a few feet from me. I caught a whiff of the smoke and my first thought was "are you freaking kidding me?" I don't care what you do in your own home, but toking up in a crowded room at a tech conference is just jackassery.

kanja 14y ago

Two men were victimized. Full stop. This doesn't help end victimization of women. This is insane because it's so self defeating. All this does is give ammo to the people who were against the changes being made this year.

alukima 14y ago

My first reaction to this was that she was being overly sensitive. As several others pointed out she admits that she played Cards Against Humanity while at the conference and obviously that seems far more offensive to most than dongles and forking. Any girl that works in a place with a highly skewed male to female ratio has to have a cut off. While working at a game company I let little jokes like this slide because I thought they were funny and they didn't offend me at all. Then it got a little worse and it eventually turned into "Oh alukima is grumpy today, her boyfriend must not have given her any dick last night" and when I told someone no, we couldn't do x "on your period?, I'll just take this up with [male supervisor]." I eventually quit. I don't think it's like that in every unchecked environment but in the future I will speak up much earlier. I'll probably be called overly sensitive then and I'll probably agree with that. But it's worth to keep it from escalating.

thisone 14y ago
From my experience, there can be a lot of one-ups-manship in the office. Between men or between women. If your environment has this type of atmosphere, it probably will escalate until you make it known where your line is. I don't think it's a problem to make your line known. People, men and women, interact with others differently. Some of my coworkers are massive flirts for example, I'm not. Their line is different from mine, and that's okay as long as we respect each other.

xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago

Petition to get Alex his job back: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...

barney-mcgrew 14y ago

Eh. This woman just needs some deep fucking.

kaoD 14y ago
Now you made her point valid. Thanks.
- barney-mcgrew 14y ago
  That's not all. Today I've also closed my eyes and it caused a chair to temporarily disappear. Pretty cool, huh? Anyways, she's just upset about a few comments that people made to each other in public. I think she's just an inexperienced, sensitive person who would benefit from my earlier suggestion.

fingerprinter 14y ago

I just happened on this thread, even if a day old. Un-fucking-believable. I'm disappointed nearly all around here. Disappointed in pycon for actually kicking them out. Very disappointed that some would say posting their picture was fine (hint: it was not). Utterly disappointed they lost their jobs over this. I still can't believe they lost their jobs over this. What a sad state of affairs the world is in when someone's twitter rant (with no proof, mind you) gets someone canned. Additionally, I'm flabbergasted that so few seem to think that Adria is, of all things, NOT the bully in this situation. The way she handled it was sensationalist, abusive, slimy and, most of all, cowardly. Look, I get it, Adria was offended. We've all been there. I hear someone say something racist around me, I offer up a "not cool, dude" and move on. Handle it maturely, rise above and walk away. Or better yet, explain it. Too intimidated to explain it to them? Fine, write about it in the abstract. What Adria did was as low as it comes. Could those guys have used some better judgement? Sure. Were the alleged jokes appropriate? Mildly not appropriate (but lets not get hyperbolic here...they were MILDLY not appropriate). Should they have been kicked out of the conf? No, someone should have talked to them about code of conduct. Should they have been fired? WTF? NO! And, lastly, Adria's hypocrisy would be amusing if not so sad. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 Freakin' absurd.

mr-hank 14y ago
The PSF did not kick us out, they pulled us from the main convention and got our side of the story. I gave a statement, apologized and thanked them for upholding the cons integrity. They felt I was sincere and let us leave of our own accord. I was also the only one who was let go.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- selenamarie 14y ago
  Thanks for continuing to speak in this thread. As someone who has not spoken up when I felt objectified or uncomfortable in the context of sexual jokes at technical conferences, I am relieved by how you've handled this. I wouldn't say I feel suddenly comfortable with speaking out to someone directly, but let's say that I feel a bit more like if I did speak to someone directly, they might not attack me. It's an unfortunate fact that speaking up often has far more downside than upside for women professionally. It's only recently I think that women have had enough status in the tech community to speak up and not be a) blacklisted or b) harassed by whoever they spoke up to. Clearly, this thread demonstrates that lots of people still feel that their ability to say whatever they want, whenever they want, trumps all. It makes me sad, to say the least. This is a big community, and I hope you find a new job soon. If there's something I can do to help, you can ping me on twitter or gmail.

beigelightning 14y ago

It's interesting how Adria attaches the importance of dealing with these men since they were sponsors, but then when dealing with it went completely from her personal platform. As SendGrid, her company is a sponsor, shouldn't she have run her response/reaction through the proper channels? This of course had an effect (hopefully short term) on the comment maker, but I think Adria will find in the long run she just shot herself in the foot in the tech space as far as further employment is concerned.

bobwaycott 14y ago

Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964, investigating the role religion played in the development, acceptance, and perpetuation of the South’s attitudes and behaviors toward race, class, and gender. I get on guys' cases all the time when they're being obliquely and overtly sexist, especially in mixed company. I also point out to women when they're putting up with sexist behavior, because it's so ingrained in our culture that too few even recognize it properly. To say I'm pretty well steeped in both the academic and practical sides of gender politics, identity, and sexism would put it rather mildly. However, I don't go ape-shit and publicly humiliate someone for making a potentially sexist joke among friends, because I have spent years rationally and academically evaluating whether or not someone is actually attempting to propagate bigotry and discriminatory behaviors--and this is the baseline for sexism, not whether or not a person approves of a statement that includes anatomical or sexual content. To reiterate, years of studying gender issues from a historical and philosophical perspective have shown rather conclusively that not everything sex-related is sexist. The "big dongle" statement was not in any way a 'sexist joke'. It was an anatomical joke, albeit a childish one on the level of potty humor. Anatomy != sexism. The forking comment, as explained by mr-hank, was not in the slightest bit sexist. Forking is the sincerest form of flattery (short of implementation, that is). People talk about forking repos all the time. I ask people if they've "forked [person's] repo" on the regular. I honestly don't even care if the guy said, "I'd fork his repo" in that typical, suggestive tone-of-voice. Why? Because for all I know as an outsider, the guys having the conversation could be homosexual, and not to put too fine a point on it, but homosexual men have been the victims of some absolutely disgusting and horrific sexism and discrimination (and much worse). Also, homosexual men don't heavily trend toward making lewd comments that are directed at women, especially where dick comments are concerned. But even beyond trying to keep that consideration in mind, dick jokes or comments that are made between men without any obvious sign that the potentially offending comment is intended to be overheard ought to give everyone pause before sounding the Sexism Alert. Yes, guys talk about dicks at times and in places that are probably not appropriate. Kind of the way children talk about poop and farts and pee at times and in places that are probably not appropriate. You know what else I hear a fuckton of at times and in places that are not appropriate? Breasts. Penises. Sluts. Periods. Boyfriend issues. Husband problems. Boob jobs. Male celebrity fantasies. 50 Fucking Shades of Grey. All of these from women. All the time--in offices, conferences, churches, cafes, restaurants, bars ... you name it. You wanna know how frequently I hear women talk about breasts (theirs or someone else's), or periods (theirs or someone else's), or the ways in which [insert body part] is changing during pregnancy, or how hot [insert attractive male celebrity] is, or how juicy 50 Shades is? It's everywhere. Moreover, I can't even count the number of times I am in professional meetings with clients and notice [mostly younger] women adjusting their bras right in the middle of the meeting. Hey, I know those things get damn uncomfortable, ladies, but it also gets uncomfortable sitting through a meeting for two hours, crossing and uncrossing my legs to give my dick some space to not be a total pain just for existing between my legs. And guess what I never do? Adjust in the presence of women. Ever. And to be perfectly transparent, I usually ignore it all. I'm one who pretty much defaults to giving women a pass because of all the stupid shit they've dealt with over a long history of men being complete assholes. I mean, really. A woman could make the most sexist comment I've ever heard and I'd just give it a shrug; but I'd say shit to a man if he was even obliquely offensive. And yet, on this one, sounding the alarm was wrong. This wasn't sexism. Inappropriate? Sure, I'll grant Adria that. There were way too many people surrounding the exchange that it would have been better to not make the dongle comment--especially given that there was a woman in close proximity (and that's not a sly way of suggesting they should have made the comment if a woman was not in close proximity). It was an improper forum for such a comment. But to turn around and smile and take a picture, post it to Twitter, and then continue on calling oneself Joan of Arc? Christ, that is beyond the pale. Just as the men who made the childish dongle comment agreed to a Code of Conduct, so did Adria. And just as she wanted them to abide by the Code, so should she have. I don't recall there being anything in the Code of Conduct that said one had the option to A) inform conference staff, or B) post a person's picture to Twitter if they say something you don't want to hear. [edit: spelling errors & wording]

neferious 14y ago

Sexism is sexy.

selenamarie 14y ago

I hope people here realize how far some people will go when they feel they are given permission to harass others: https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656 https://twitter.com/jessenoller/status/314417532842950656 This is just awful. And the people who are taking part in the harassment are responsible, not anyone else.

hilljgo 14y ago
may I ask what started all this?
- selenamarie 14y ago
  Trolls are harassing Jesse Noller because of the role he played in responding to http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...
  - hilljgo 14y ago
    ah, which was thishttp://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/ http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/ right?
    - selenamarie 14y ago
      No, that is a separate incident: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inaprop...
awa 14y ago
The hatemail and harassment is awful. However, I do think pycon staff dropped the ball by not making sure photos taken without consent were taken down/deleted when the complaint was being resolved.
lawnchair_larry 14y ago
Being that you "thanked" Adria for her deplorable behavior, I'm not sure that you're in a position to speak out against harassment on this issue.

Xanza 14y ago

Honestly, as a male developer, it's incidents like this that fully and completely turn me away from taking any form of misanthropic misogyny seriously (aside from the obvious). You're attending a public function with hundreds, if not thousands of people and you truthfully believe someone, somewhere, is not going to say something to upset you or to say something you disagree with? No, stop it. Just grow up or get out; you're actions are not akin to that of Joan of Arc as you so blasphemously decided that they were (who by the way changed the course of history as we know it, you arrogant git), instead they are more akin to that of a bickering child who wishes to see their sibling 'get into trouble' because something they said didn't sit well in your own opinion. The skinny of it is he said something you didn't like, you blew it out of proportion (remember, you're supposed to be an adult and have the ability to process things accordingly) and this man lost his job; yet you're trying to convince me that you're the victim here? Just leave.

thisiscrazy 14y ago
It defiantly makes me want to avoid PyCon with a 10 foot pole from now on, lest I get fired for joking around near a women.

pixiegod 14y ago

Adria, I am a big supporter to equal rights. I am of hispanic origin, and even raised catholic, i believe in gay rights, womens rights, and am as big a tree hugger that you will ever meet. I actually stop to confront people who protest day laborers (while Adria combats her demons behind a blog/twitter etc), and have stood toe to toe with minutemen, and multiple groups of not so happy looking skin head tattoed guys... when my daughter tries to quit anything, i p;ush her just as i would any child of mine, regardless of sex...and as such she is a four year old who is ahead of her class mathematically, uses a computer (i cant tell you how happy i am when i saw her boot her machine, log in, and launch firefox and type in "p", found "pbskids.org" and proceeded to play her game....at age 3 and a half)... I am philisophically on Adrias side, but i do break on one count...when sexist talk and sexist ideas are actually used to hinder a womans rights and hinders a womans progression in ANY way, i will roll up my sleeves, jump into the foray and defend any abused person, whether or not its "my fight" to get into. Adria, sorry...i dont know you...but this was over the top. There are many things we men get blamed for that are truly just over generalized jokes, but i dont anyone to town over it...being forgetful...not being able to multitask...not being clean...all of these things dont mean anything unless they are being used to really abuse you... my wife shoulkd be brought up on charges for all the "male bashing jokes" i am subjected to...and sadly, i hvae known women like you...the jokes against males, against whomever you see is a target of your angst is ok...but god forbid if anyone who has no control over you at all makes some sophmoric poop joke...then we must have his head on a platter for opressing your delicate sensibilities...

dirtyoldmick 14y ago

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 HOLY CRAP I AM OFFENDED!!!

drlloyd11 14y ago

Perhaps we could segregate the sexes again. A long black curtain will separate the men and the women. That sounds fun!

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

nnnslogan 14y ago

She posted a picture of two guys and made public allegations about their conduct which resulted in their termination. To me this looks like grounds for a defamation lawsuit. Did they give permission to use the image of them? Did they admit to making these alleged jokes that she took offense to? There's something seriously wrong with this. I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and say they were gay bashing or using racial slurs, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves. This is seriously messed up.

andrewdupont 14y ago
You could've read this thread to find the answers to most of your questions. Yes, the two gentlemen in question did make these jokes; one of them admits as much in this thread, and said so to the PyCon organizers when they investigated the incident. Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves. You might not be familiar with defamation law in the United States, but understand that truth is an absolute defense against defamation. Nobody is disputing the facts of the incident (the actual content of what was said), and Adria's interpretation of the jokes (whether you agree with it or not) is clearly in the realm of opinion. I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and say they were gay bashing or using racial slurs, and they have no opportunity to defend themselves. Yet ask yourself: does this happen in the real world? Is there an epidemic of false, Twitter-aided public shamings? We've already established that this isn't an example, since no facts are in dispute. Maybe the implications of this incident aren't as far-reaching and scary as you think.
- Smudge 14y ago
  You're right about the defamation. However: > Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves. That is to say, they had an opportunity to defend themselves to the PyCon organizers. Who, subsequently, did not kick them out. From what I understand, after discussing the situation and hearing both sides (and, presumably, their apologies), PyCon issued them a warning. At least one individual then left of his own accord. Where they had no opportunity to defend themselves was against the public shaming (and subsequent outcry) brought about by Adria's twitter post. At least not immediately, and by then the damage was done (I see that later one posted a comment on HN). Regardless of what the law may or may not say, or whether or not they crossed any lines (and I believe they must have, to at least some degree, for Adria to have felt so strongly about it), Adria really did not give them any opportunity to even apologize, let alone present their side of the story. Perhaps their jokes were truly indefensible somehow. But it hurts the community when, instead of affording each other some form of due process and making an effort to raise awareness and education, we choose arbitrary scapegoats and pursue vigilante justice.

ipsocannibal 14y ago

It seems from the comments from the individuals involved in the incident that the "perpetrators" of said offensive have been genuinely apologetic and remorseful. While Ms. Richards although apologizing for the fact that one of the jokers lost their job has not really apologized for making this a big stink over social media. I agree, if you have a concern use the Code of Conduct to your advantage or talk to them directly but why take their picture and post it on twitter with some vague description what you think they said if not to shame or humiliate them publicly. Well, why would she apologize? Being a media personality, (that what she is, a tech PR person that gets in front of people and talks for a living, ignore the Tech. Evanglist BS), using social media effectively is probably integral to her business model. If she admits that the original posting to twitter was uncalled for then its akin to saying she can't do part of her job in an ethical manner. So what is she to do, double down of course. Instead of being an adult and admitting she made a mistake as well, she needs to play the "Joan of Arc" card in order to garner more sympathy and divide the audience. Sure she makes herself look like an asshole to some but doing it but at least she saves face with a lot of people she hopes to potentially sell her services to. Instead she should admit that she got ticked off and decided to use her considerable PR skill to make an example out of two people. Well guess what, pay back is a bitch. I just checked your blog and it's down. It seems cloudfire isn't helping you, and by the Out of memory error message that's returned, (which by the way, if you are a "tech evangelist" you should know is incredibly insecure to display error messages like that on a production website) it seems like that DDOS is working. The internet is a double edged sword and it seems like it's swinging back her way. From my point of view, this is the ultimate in fairness. Her actions caused a person to lose their job, (I don't believe for a second that if she had not posted to twitter, if she had gone to the con staff or directly confronted the jokers, that anybody would have lost a job.) so she should lose an equivalent dollar amount in lost job opportunities and page views.

dc0de 14y ago

What's next, are they going to go out and get the news, television programming, and all other media outlets to stop the sexism? Why are they trying to ruin all conferences? Why does the court of public opinion not target those outlets? Oh, because they can't get any traction. That's why.

swhitt 14y ago

Didn't GitHub's progress-bar screen while you were waiting for a fork used to say "Hardcore forking action!" or something like that? I think I have a shirt that says something along those lines too. Weren't those guys celebrated for their incredible humor?

jaja911 14y ago

So what if you offended? Why should anyone have to worry about offending everyone? I find your assertion that because I am a white male I somehow have more privilege and my accomplishments are somehow less significant then a women offensive. Why are you offending me please stop! Seriously i'm sure Christians are offended by openly gay couples, should a gay person be fired for "offending" someone by his lifestyle? Muslims are offended by seeing a uncovered women, should they be allowed to fire her because they are offended? What makes your definitions of offensive anymore valid then theirs? I also find your belief that somehow your opinions on what is offensive is more valid then other peoples.

dmishe 14y ago

Nice image for sendgrid, they should be thankful. Although SES is faster already.

wazoox 14y ago

What I'll remember from all that: you can lose your job and be publicly smeared and shamed by joking with your friend at a conference. I certainly wouldn't ever want to come at any such conference, at any price. This is political correctness gone completely crazy.

xxxxxxxxxxx 14y ago

Petition: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-his-job-back/ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/374/323/889/give-alex-reid-hi...

thelarry 14y ago

I snicker every time i hear the word dongle in a meeting...

etherael 14y ago

I got downvoted for saying it at the time and later quoted out of context on shithnsays, and I wish I wasn't in a position to say I told you so, but: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4982330

teklord 14y ago

Adria is an idiot because of this. She's also an anti-white racist, and often says things that are blatantly sexist about men, which is hilarious because she's constantly going on about racism and sexism as if she's the last line of defence in a world of intolerance. I've lost what little respect I had for this woman. She should be boycotted from participating in events like this in the future, as far as I'm concerned.

Macsenour 14y ago

I don't know if I'll ever go to PyCon. But if I do, I'm not saying anything but "hello" and "good bye".

rmrfrmrf 14y ago

Thank you, Adria, for fighting the good fight. I hope that the voices of support for you drown out the rampant hate that you're receiving. Seems like HN turns into a complete shithole the second a woman "has the nerve to choose to be offended" or whatever bullshit these misogynist assholes peddle. The benefit that I always see from situations like this is that it empowers the women who, in the past, have been too nervous to call people out on their shit. Just know that you're doing amazing work and are paving the way to creating an environment of gender equality.

beedogs 14y ago
Oh for fuck's sake.
truthtacular 14y ago
I second rmrfrmrf here. People are acting like it's easy or fun to be the one to stand up and try to do what's right. It isn't easy or fun and part of the reason people don't do it is that when you stand up, you become a nice visible target.

Pinatubo 14y ago

Firing someone for saying something mildly offensive within earshot of a woman is not going to make the community more accepting of female colleagues.

Dookie4u 14y ago

http://imgur.com/ac1Reue http://imgur.com/ac1Reue

yaelwrites 14y ago

Asa woman who hangs out at tech events, I've had people make all manners of offensive jokes around me. And a really great way to handle it is to talk to them about it. Or ignore it. Or talk about it loudly in front of them with my friends. Putting someone on public blast for something overheard, and then writing a douchey post about how you're creating safe space for future generations... is just pathetic. Be a !@#$ adult about it.

IsaacSchlueter 14y ago

So, some people were acting immaturely at a tech conference, violating the CoC. They offended someone with their antics, and most likely embarrassed their employer, a sponsor of said conference. The employer might have been a bit knee-jerk in their reaction, but maybe not. No matter how many children you've got, publicly embarrassing the company at a sponsored event is certainly ample grounds for termination. I am not a member of the python community. But I've gotta say, it's nice to see that it was handled in the way that it was. And then you people. This Hacker News crowd. Jesus H Christ. You're talking about how Adria failed to use her power responsibly? Give me a break. If I was sitting where she was, I might have done the same exact thing. When you are childish in public, and behave in a manner that the organizers of a community event do not want you to behave, you get kicked out. When you make an ass of yourself while waiving a company logo around, you can expect to have your career impacted. It's unfortunate that such an example was made of them. It is not a wise strategic move, clearly, because doing so mobilizes the asshat army, as we're seeing. The non-apology http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 is just disappointing. My hope is that the boys involved in this incident can learn from it, and behave more appropriately when in public.

law_mclawyerson 14y ago
how about this? https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect. She violated such a code of conduct herself and didnt actually report to staff; even by her own admission. This was twitted out and an army of angry whiteknights informed someone on staff.
- IsaacSchlueter 14y ago
  > army of angry whiteknights Please refrain from racist comments.
  - vacri 14y ago

dfsfdsfsdf 14y ago

Great job Adria, now men really won't want women at their tech conventions.

herdrick 14y ago

Hey everyone - before commenting, please notice how many people have already commented with essentially your opinion. No need to pile on. What we have here is a cascade of overreaction. HN and other communities are overreacting too. Think how much better it'd have been if, for example, PlayHaven had waited a day or two to think through this (assuming we've already got the story right, which is unlikely). That applies to you too. Let's just take it easy for the time being. Probably by tomorrow we'll have a clearer view of the facts. Don't try to hurt someone on the internet, especially when others are doing the same.

lsiebert 14y ago

You can debate whether she should have been offended, but it's clear that she was offended. It's possible to offend people unintentionally. Given that, her actions are totally understandable. I doubt that she intended to get the guy fired.

spocktacular 14y ago

The question of what is "appropriate" behavior is not something that has an objective definition. It is a subjective judgement which depends on the participants involved. If someone in a conversation is made to feel uncomfortable by the conversation, it is incumbent upon the participants to understand why, and make an informed decision on how and whether to modify their behavior. Rejecting a person's objections to a given behavior out-of-hand is tantamount to telling that person "we don't care whether you stay or leave." We can foster an inclusive industry by instead saying "we want everyone to participate, and we want to understand what you're saying when you say what we're doing makes you feel uncomfortable." In the end, it's not a male vs female or race vs race thing - it's just a question of adopting essential patterns of civil collaborative engagement.

tripleggg 14y ago

This is absolutely insane! A man makes a private innocent joke, a woman complains, the man get fired. Meanwhile women (and men) are free to make violent jokes about men's penises getting cutoff, hitting men in the crutch, etc. And all this on TV for millions of viewer! For example see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkl_oLSKQc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkl_oLSKQc And nobody has a problem with that. What the FUCK!

tripleggg 14y ago

OMG I just read the comment from the real victim, the guy who got fired and he is apologizing! DUDE what are you apologizing for? She should be apologizing (will never happen). Your employer should be apologizing as well. But YOU have done absolutely nothing wrong. At the very least I hope your apology in insincere and you're only doing it to get another job, which is somewhat understandable.

tripleggg 14y ago

By the way, let's not forget that besides Adria Richards, there is another party to be shamed and boycotted: PlayHaven. I am pretty good at what I do and I would never ever in a million years work for them or anyone like them. Good engineers are in demand and thus in a position of some influence. Don't take the victim mindset. Your employer needs you at least as much as you need them. Boycott PlayHaven. They need to know there are consequences. It's the only way anything is going to change. I saw a petition to re-hire the guy who got fired. Fuck that. I know I wouldn't want that job back.

tripleggg 14y ago
This goes for Adria Richards' employer SendGrid as well. Andria has publicly embarrassed you and put on the blacklist among many good engineers. I would never work for you or any other company that has position reserved for "developer evangelists."

ewitch 14y ago

What a bunch of melodrama (on all sides, but the anti-Adria faction is definitely uglier). These are adults? Glad I never got into Twitter, what a waste of time and energy.

lkjlkj 14y ago

Yes. OMG Yes. She lost her job. Praise god this stupid bitch isn't gainfully employed anymore.

alison_lowndes 14y ago

I think you all need to spend a few weeks in rural Africa and realise how fuckton crazied we westerners can get at times. (Am nicking that phrase if thats ok, @bobwaycott?) Word!

skwulf 14y ago

I've been nerding it up my whole life. (And pretty much still giggle every time I hear the word "dongle." Come on! It's just a funny word.) The sexism I have experienced has less often come from men in tech, and most often been from the general population - men and women alike. That's just an aside. I'm not gonna comment on the specifics of this situation because I'm not sure any of us will ever have the facts. All I ask is that people don't use this as an opportunity to spew aggressive, hate-filled hyperbole. It doesn't help anyone's arguments. Let's try to rise above the estimation that the internet is nothing but a cesspool of angry trolls and shut-ins, and use situations like this to have open, practical dialogue. Who wants to cumbaya with me? (No, that's not a euphemism, and I will socially shame anyone who claims otherwise.) (Oh, god, this just went full #meta.)

vr6 14y ago

Honestly, I cant speak to what happened here as Im not sure what to think other than both US government and now its citizens are working to maintain police state rather than a free country. Beyond that, I happen to work in an environment where women are not treated fairly or given the same opportunities as male sw developers. I survive it, try not to be part of the problem, but it sucks! There really is a gender inequality problem in the tech industry and I think both sides are part of the problem. Both sides conduct themselves in ways that propagate the issues. Beyond that, even tech woman within their own gender group become more detrimental to each other than the males. It's sickening! How do we truly begin to solve this on all layers? I guess the first step is awareness within all layers of the issue, and agree on all sides there are problems that cut both ways, and then we must be willing to resolve it on all layers. We cant just hold one gender responsible, we all are responsible. But really how best to do this??? Single White Female Systems and Sw Developer

CitizenTekk 14y ago

Full disclosure: I'm a girl with three older brothers and have been around a ton of guy-humor. --- Hey everyone, I do feel really bad for "mr-hank." I personally would not have been offended by his comments ... I probably would have found them funny. I go to a lot of tech conferences (and I have 3 older brothers), but girls joke about things, too. I'm just not one to freak out about the word "dongle" or "fork." The implications seem fairly innocent to me. But listen, it was Playhaven who sparked this controversy. The funny part ... is that Anonymous touts freedom of the internet ... their founding principle was to be against internet censorship. They attacked the Westboro Baptist Church for taking down a YouTube video of Tom Cruise. So, I'm really surprised they went after SendGrid over a freedom of speech case on Twitter. There's no doubt that Richards has the right to report on something that happens in real-time. That's a basic right for citizen journalism. I come from a journalist and analyst background, so am pretty passionate about the freedom to report. Long story short, I think there's a lot of attention on the gender gap in technology right now and it's feeling very forced and uncomfortable ... i.e. lots of press and publicity. I think empowering, rather than squabbling, is really important right now. This gender gap change has to come from the top (as Cisco pointed out recently in their awesome statement about not being very supportive and dedicating to doing better). http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC http://dthin.gs/Z1yKQC It's the long-standing corporate powers who need to be symbolically "fired" (or otherwise reprimanded) - not mr-hank. And it was Playhaven who started this unjust controversy - not citizen journalism by Adria Richards.

deleted 14y ago

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Meh1919 14y ago

@bobwaycott. You swear too much for my personal comfort. Do you feel uncomfortable with your life? Have you turned your back on God? Embrace God and give up the potty talk. Does anyone remember Michael Bentine?

JadedOkie 14y ago

I think she got this totally wrong this man got fired he had a family, and according to him she is the one who needs to get her mind out of the gutter. She ruined this mans life because she felt a calling to defend gender equality in coding? Who are you the messiah of the tech world? Now we have to hear about how she never intended for anyone to get fired blah blah blah. Guess what lady someone got fired you posted that pic to a huge social media site and you knew it would spread I smell an attention whore! How is this huge mess you have made going to do anything for the betterment of women? To the man who said he was sorry, look you made a bad joke and that was it don't further this ridiculous cause by apologizing that just gives her validity. If anyone should apologize it should be her for not even giving you the chance to apologize.

annasaru 14y ago

From what the guy has said (one of the two guys), there was no warning, no complaint at the time. Just a picture taken. This lady had a size-able twitter audience that she tried to exploit. So it was unfair to the male who got let go for what seems a very minor thing.

LeonTrollsky 14y ago

These American Corporate Slave games are enjoyable to watch. Sick the ees upon each other, watch them gore and splat and splatter. Once a victor is determined, ers have one last nice suprise: Maximum pain for all who fight! There are always further aces who can do the job, thank heavens.