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U.S. CEO to France: ‘How Stupid Do You Think We Are?’
- aioprisan 14y agoHe makes some great points. People don't care where their good come from, they just want them to be cheap and high quality. # hour workday? Unbelievable.
- anonymouz 14y agoWell, on the one hand people don't care where their goods come from when they buy them (or more to the point, they don't care under which conditions they were manufactured). But then, on the other hand, they don't want to have the standard of living of the people working in those factories. Short-term self-interest tends to make people ignore that in the long-term this model is not sustainable.
- ctdonath 14y agoExorbitant pay for 3 hours of labor* is much less sustainable. The euro-per-hour workers will (and do) work their way up to better conditions, while their overpaid slothful competition will just get shut down. (* - we may also presume those 3 hours do not constitute "hard" work.)
- pbreit 14y ago"People don't care where their good come from" I don't think this is entirely true. In fact, I think Americans have been caring more and more over the past few decades, especially about items made in Asia (and please don't mention Apple).
- thetrb 14y agoSo just because some crazy US CEO states in a letter that French workers have a "3 hour workday" you suddenly believe that? This guy is crazy and I find it amusing that anybody takes anything he writes seriously.
- rdl 14y agoI don't get why you'd ever send a letter like this (except anonymously, or if you were a politician). There is no upside beyond just "Sorry, we're not interested -- our new investments are focused on Asia, where demand for tires is growing 200%/yr. Sincerely, CEO." There is downside -- you might provoke some tariffs in EU/France, or disinvestment from the pension fund, or whatever.
- windexh8er 14y agoIt's been shown time and time again that conversation / discussion with honest dissent proves to foster more thought and recourse than "being nice" and not directly engaging the problem. While the letter bordered on over-the-top I'd rather get the honest feedback than nothing at all (i.e. thanks but no thanks).
- joezydeco 14y agoIf I was to pretend I was the Titan CEO and read into the letter deeper, it's almost a backhanded way of saying "look, you're probably not going to find any buyer for your firm and I'll helpfully tell you why because it seems your management and unions are in denial".
- ctdonath 14y agoWhile scathing, it is also very informative. "Not interested" and a vague "lookin' better elsewhere" doesn't get into the reality of "why?" Methinks he did them a great service in being brutally honest. Those trying to solve the obvious problems will make much greater progress with such a letter in hand, rather than the usual apologetic tact. "Helpful are the wounds of a friend..." I'm sure he would, in fact, like to buy a French tire factory, but ridiculous pay for minuscule work makes for an offer no less insulting than his reply.
- rdl 14y agoYes, but there is no percentage in it for him. It's like telling a random fat person on the bus that he's fat. Probably nothing happens, but there is a small chance he will fly into a rage, or will tell everyone that you called him fat (maybe blogging about it, with video!). There's a much smaller chance that he'll suddenly start to diet/exercise, but how does that benefit you? It's different if it's a friend/family member, or if you're hired as a trainer or doctor.
- kordless 14y agoTalk about a financial blowout. Sounds like his intent is to waste Titan's time writing negative remarks and being disrespectful. I agree they shouldn't do business with France, but to be so rude is, well...rude.
- eqreqeq 14y ago>>Alas, America isn’t what it used to be: Insulting the French doesn’t seem to be rewarded by the stock market, and Titan is down about 1% so far today. As if. Correlation is not causation.
- ericz 14y agoThis isn't even correlation, since when did insulting the french correlate to a rise/fall in stock prices?
- ImprovedSilence 14y agoTrue. Also, the wsj article is dated today. Look at the market, EVERYTHING is down today. The letter was dated Feb 8. As if this news is just getting around to the big players today...
- eloisant 14y agoThe CEO is Maurice Taylor, and he's used to say the same bullshit to US politicians. That guy is pretty crazy.
- guizzy 14y agoI wonder if he's aware of how very FRENCH his first name is.
- nostromo 14y ago> Titan had to pay millions to Washington lawyers to sue the Chinese tire companies because of their subsidizing. Titan won. The government collects the duties. We don't get the duties, the government does. This is how tariffs work. You don't tax imports to fork over free money to domestic companies. The point is to increase the cost of the imported good to compensate for illegal (from the WTO's point of view) Chinese subsidies. I'm confused as to why he thinks those taxes should go to Titan.
- gte910h 14y agoI think he thinks he should be reimbursed for the lawsuit expenses. He does appear to be a bit flippant as well.
- pash 14y ago> I'm confused as to why he thinks those taxes should go to Titan. Probably because from 2000–2005, under U.S. law [0], anti-dumping duties did get disbursed to the U.S. companies that brought successful anti-dumping complaints. This is illegal under WTO rules, however, and Congress repealed the law after the WTO authorized retaliatory sanctions against the U.S. 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byrd_Amendment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byrd_Amendment
- biot 14y agoI'm confused as to why you think what he wrote indicates an expectation that Titan should receive the duties. I didn't read that into it at all.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y ago>>I'm confused as to why he thinks those taxes should go to Titan. He could be a stereotypical welfare queen. You know, the type who think they are entitled to "free stuff" at taxpayer expense.
- OGinparadise 14y agoMaybe he meant to say: we were harmed financially, paid lawyers, sued, won and got jack in return.
- ChuckMcM 14y agoQuite the flame, I share others surprise that he would be quite so flagrant in his discussion. It is something of an art, and perhaps a bit of fun, to tell people 'no freaking way' with language that reads nicely. Clearly the guys at Titan have no interest in that :-). It would have been more effective perhaps if he had shared with the people of Amien the context of the discussion. Something along the lines of "this is what we can pay per worked hour if we want to sell tires to your neighbors. More than that, and they will buy them from Chinese factories." And let the unions be the ones who get to decide that the jobs go out of the country.
- fatjokes 14y ago> Insulting the French doesn’t seem to be rewarded by the stock market, and Titan is down about 1% so far today. Journalists should be forced to say "correlation is not causation" ten times before writing each article.
- lostlogin 14y agoNot sure where you live, but the national paper in New Zealand doesn't have journalists write its articles. Badly written advert/infotainment.
- pcrh 14y agoSo he's going to buy a Chinese tire factory and pocket Chinese government subsidies? /s
- lutusp 14y agoThe letter should include a p.s.: "We don't have a public relations department and I am marginally literate."
- tptacek 14y agoHe's marginally literate because...?
- lutusp 14y agoHis letter shows the classic signs of someone uncomfortable expressing himself in words. Reading his letter is like watching someone ice skate for the first time -- all the expected motions are there, but without any familiarity or sense of style.
- pinko 14y agoThe "I and Titan have a 40-year history" sentence is pretty poorly written. I had to to stop, rewind, and reparse to understand it after hitting the comma after "companies".
- pavel_lishin 14y agoThe best part is "best regards" at the very end of a fairly insulting letter. I long for the day when letters are signed honestly.
- iuguy 14y agoI have an idea that the differences in work ethic across Europe may be partly to do with climate and partly to do with language. In France, the verb 'work' is travailler. Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. In Germany, the word werken means to build, create, do. The German word more aligned with travailler is arbeit. This lack of correlation in the word work I believe may explain the differences in the approach and cultural views towards work that I see across Europe, particularly with latin root romance languages. The second factor I've seen is climate. In the more productive northern European countries, it's generally colder. There's been a historical need for produce and for people to work (not endure or arbeit) to trade in order to get everything you need in terms of food and shelter. South of the Olive line something strange happens. If you look at Spain you'll see that there's a long siesta during the day. This is because for a large part of the year Spain's too hot to work in during most of the afternoon. While we have air conditioning now, hundreds of years of cultural differences I feel may have led us with ingrained ideas about what work is and what it means, with those differences reinforced by climate. For example, in Turkey there's no such thing as a siesta (there's no time in Istanbul for one anyway). Culturally it doesn't really exist, yet it's as hot as parts of Spain that do. I could be completely wrong about this, but it's just something I've noticed. I do believe that the unions are crippling France's productivity, but France is as likely to change in the short term as the rest of Europe to France's view IMHO. EDIT : I'm not saying that Germans, Brits or whoever are harder working, or that the French, Spanish, Moomins are lazy, far from it. I'm pointing out some differences in how people perceive work (i.e. neutrally or with negative connotations) based on language and culture, based solely on my own experience. For what it's worth I've worked with lazy Brits and Germans and hard working French and Spanish people. The Moomins I've never worked with, sorry if you're a Moomin and my ignorance upset you. raverbashing makes a good point here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5252446 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5252446
- eqreqeq 14y ago>>In France, the verb 'work' is travailler. Traditionally this meant literally to toil, a chore, an obligation. "travailler" comes from Latin, in spanish the same word is "trabajar", notice the resemblance. It literally means "to work" in english. Just saying this because I don't really buy it that "travailler" in French means "to toil".
- mariuolo 14y agoHe could have got his point across in a more civil way. I understand he felt the urge to vent his spleen at someone, but now they are going to be blackballed should they ever need anything from the French government.
- stfu 14y agoIs there somewhere already a translation of the French response? http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-politique/france/actu/0202578488071-exclusif-goodyear-la-reponse-de-montebourg-a-titan-540536.php http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-politique/france/actu/020257...
- guizzy 14y agoHere's my amateur translation... Sir, Your words, as extreme as they are insulting, pay witness to your complete ignorance of our country, France, and its solid assets, such as its world renowned power of attraction and its ties with the United States of America. France is proud to host more than 20 000 foreign businesses, representing nearly 2 million jobs, a third of it's industrial exports, 20% of its private R&D and 25% of its industrial jobs. Every year, 700 foreign investors make a decision to localize job and value creating investments in France. And this strong attractivity is not waning, on the contrary, it is strengthening every year. Amongst these foreign investments, the United States take the first place. 4200 subsidiaries of american businesses represent nearly 500 000 jobs. The presence of american businesses in France is not new: Haviland since 1842, IBM since 1914, Coca-Cola since 1933, General Electric since 1974, and so many others. These ties are renewed every year: in 2012, businesses like Massey-Fergueson, Mars Chocolat, or 3M chose to grow their presence in France. What were the decisive factors in these decisions? Foreign businesses come to France for its quality infrastructure, its enviable living environment, one of the most competitive energy in Europe and an enviroment favoring research and innovation. But above all, in opposition to your ridiculous and disparaging remarks, the bulk of these businesses know and appreciate the quality and productivity of the french workforce, its engagement, its knowhow, its talents and the competence of french workers. To strengthen this power of attraction, the french government has just taken 35 measures in the "National pact for growth, competitivity and work". Amongst them, a tax refund for competitivity and work lighten by 6% the salary load of businesses of between 1 and 2,5 SMIC. Social partners have also reached an agreement on job security, which illustrate the quality of the social dialogue in France and its importance to our government. Might I remind you that Titan, the company you helm, is 20 times smaller than Michelin, our French technology leader with global reach, and 35 times less profitable? This demonstrate how much Titan could stand to learn and gain from implanting in France. France is even prouder and happy to host american investments that our two countries are linked by an old and passionate friendship. Are you at least aware of what La Fayette did for the United States of America? And as for us, we will never forget the sacrifices young american soldiers made on the beaches of Normandy to free us from nazism in 1944. And since you chose to criticise your own country in the email you sent me, I must tell you how much the french government admires the policies put in place by President Obama. As our minister of industry, I am particularly impressed by his action favoring relocating industrial jobs in the United States and its radical innovation. There is a certain link between our current policy and the one inspired by your President. You evoque your intention to use certain countries' workforce to flood our markets. I have a duty to inform you that this condamnable short-term thinking will one day face a justified reaction from States. Such is already the case for France and it's growing amount of allies within the European Union who are campaining for reciprocity of trading and are working against dumping. In the meantime, be assured that I will make certain that our competent governmental services will work twice as hard to inspect your imported tires. They will be especially mindful of the respect of the applicable standards in matters social, environmental and technical. Please accept, sir, my greetings. ((That greeting is essentially untranslatable)). Arnaud MONTEBOURG
- jacquesm 14y agoWow, what a total jerk. Regardless of the differences between US, Chinese, Indian and French work ethics the least you could do as a CEO is to learn how to write a polite refusal. When you don't have to insult someone it is probably better not to. Because those pesky French just might publish your less than elegant letters, your stockholders might read those letters and could very well think: "This guy runs the company I invest in? I'd better move my money out before his loud mouth causes him to lose business.". Stockholders are fickle, and some stockholders actually care about more than just the numbers (of course, that is a minority). Also, if you communicate you negative interest when a foreign representative has thought to offer you a chance at some deal you may want to think of the future. Effectively you are saying 'if you are so kind as to think of me I will repay you with trash'. That will likely not be repeated again and likely the effect will be much further spread than just this one country and just this one official. That bulk deal for Tires for all the vehicles of the French armed forces (Michelin?), the police force or their connections with the ministry of labour and their counterparts in other countries. Piss off politicians in enough places and it will backfire. Maybe there is some hidden upside but I don't see any. Finally, you are also representing your country when you do business abroad. Every other American CEO lost a little bit of respect today by re-inforcing certain stereo types that we could all do without. If you are ever in a position like this, please say 'no' with some grace.
- 16s 14y agoI like people who tell it like they see it. Sure, he could tone it down a bit, but I would prefer he does not. When you guard your words and hold back how you really feel, you are not doing anyone any favors. Saying nice, comforting things to them (while they fail and people lose their jobs) would be a greater injustice than being honest and frank. I bet no one else has ever spoken that directly about the matter. Sometimes, that's precisely what is needed.
- jacquesm 14y agoSure, but this is not in any way productive. Another thing that bugs me is the hypocritical stance of suing Chinese tire manufacturers and then turning around and manufacturing in China. If you do something like this - it's a pretty drastic departure from good form - there ought to be a reason for it, some kind of upside to balance the obvious downsides.
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- daenz 14y agoOne of Mr. Taylor's Titan commercials is pretty interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exFF_2Eh9Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exFF_2Eh9Ec
- rayiner 14y agoWhat's amusing about the letter is that it shows how even executives buy into cultural stereotypes to justify their activities. The substance of the letter is this: we'd rather buy an Indian or Chinese tire company to get the government subsidies and take advantage of the low cost of labor. The stuff about French workers only working three hours a day is fluff, and on top of that almost certainly exaggerated out of context and/or apocryphal. See: http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/ http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/ The French work on average 1,554 hours per year, about 10% lower than the OECD average of 1,749. Is that 10% breaking the backs of French tire manufacturing? Of course not. Consider that South Koreans work on average 2,193 hours per year, a staggering 25% higher than the OECD average. Why doesn't Titan manufacture tires in South Korea? The answer is that relatively small differences in the number of hours people worked aren't driving the economics here. The French work somewhat less than say Americans, but also make somewhat less money than say Americans (last I checked, manufacturing jobs paid on an hourly basis). To be accurate, the letter could have said: "we won't manufacture tires in France because the French work 6.5 hours per day on average versus 7.5 per day for Americans." But that would have sounded stupid. Hence the need to exaggerate and say: "the French only work 3 hours per day!" What's driving the economics is, as the letter points out, $1/hour wages in China or India, where people are happy to get so little money because those countries are poor and have low standards of living relative to western countries. The rest is just handwaving and fluff.
- Zarathust 14y agoVery good comment. This open letter is copied in every right wing economic blogs as a demonstration that unions are killing companies, when really no OECD country can compete with China or India for low wages. The big public rant about how bad things are in the factory looks just like a large media spin to justify the closure of the factory.
- fnordfnordfnord 14y agoWell, we're going to have these conversations again in the near future as automation becomes more common. At some point we as a society are either going to have to organize us all with some productive activity, or embrace and deal with the departure of the "everyone-must-work-hard-all-of-the-time" work ethic.
- mathattack 14y agoI can't see how taunting government leaders ends well for a company. You may not agree with them, but what good comes from taunting? Will this really be productive to getting France to ease up on union laws?
- api 14y agoSummary: "I'd rather pay slave wages." Of course he would. Of course, the French union workers might be a bit too far on the other end of the spectrum.
- fruzz 14y agoI find it somewhat odd that he rails against workers earning too much, when what they earn is but a fraction of his own salary. I doubt they work any less harder than him either.
- brousky 14y ago> I doubt they work any less harder than him either. Actually, his main gripe is that after visiting the factory, he realized workers only do 3 hours of actual work in a typical 7-hour day. When he brought that up to union reps, they bluntly replied that "it's the French way".
- nraynaud 14y agoDon't forget this a member of the GOP talking to a member of the Socialist Party. It might just be a posture.
- maceo 14y agoThe letter is a good example of the cognitive dissonance so prevalent amongst the privileged elite. In the same paragraph where he laments that the French government "does nothing" while the Chinese ship tires to France, he predicts French industrial degradation because "its government is more government." Which is it, is it too much government or not enough? It's this deafness to the meaning of your own words that would allow a loudmouthed industrialist-type to shout "class warfare!" the moment new taxes are proposed on the wealthy. This letter is an unprovoked attack on French working people. And if French working people decide to non-violently retaliate against the company by petitioning for import restrictions, organizing a boycott, etc, it would be wholly justified.
- maceo 14y agoThe letter is a good example of the cognitive dissonance so prevalent amongst the privileged elite. In the same paragraph where he laments that the French government "does nothing" while the Chinese ship tires to France, he predicts French industrial degradation because "its government is more government." Which is it, is it too much government or not enough? It's this deafness to the meaning of your own words that would allow a loudmouthed industrialist-type to shout "class warfare!" the moment new taxes are proposed on the wealthy. This letter is an unprovoked attack on French working people. And if French working people decide to non-violently retaliate against the company by petitioning for import restrictions, organizing a boycott, etc, it would be wholly justified.