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What happens when you ask it to play chess against you if the chess game has an API? Are you measuring chess or multi-tasking skill? Also what harness? If you’

What happens when you ask it to play chess against you if the chess game has an API? Are you measuring chess or multi-tasking skill? Also what harness? If you’re using a general harness of course it’s going to try and give you commentary. I say this not because I’m an LLM shill but because false equivalence is all over the place in the space and maybe it’s a fine heuristic for you but probably not a real outcome when it comes to the capability of LLMs.

datsci_est_2015 10d ago
Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? Frontier model’s failure modes are a direct refutation of claims that we’ve reached (or will soon reach) the artificial general intelligence. We may have reached an artificial general intelligence, but there may be more complexity to this than even AI thought leaders are talking / influencing about. Maybe not all AGIs have a path to digital singularity. Maybe our current era of intelligence modeling has fundamental flaws and we are in a local minimum of the artificial intelligence space. To note, I would bet with a good amount of certainty that we have enough compute power and automation to DDOS the internet out of existence with botnets. That doesn’t make the frontier models intelligent, that just makes their handlers reckless.
- trio8453 10d ago
  > Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? They're not guardrails, they're a different input/output environment.
- solenoid0937 10d ago
  Ask a 6 year old to draw a chess board from scratch every turn and they too will make mistakes.
  - datsci_est_2015 10d ago
    A 6 year old will figure out how to ask you to help them after they get it wrong.
  - freejazz 10d ago
    No one has spent the past three years telling me that a 6 year old will take my job!!!
    - claytongulick 10d ago
      And the 6 year old doesn't cost more than the GDP of a medium sized country.
      - sailfast 9d ago
        /s you should see how much private schools cost!
  - wavemode 10d ago
    Hm? Drawing the next move's game state based on the current one is a very simple task. Chess academies are probably full of six-year-olds who could do this. For adults getting into playing tournament chess, losing to some kid barely tall enough to reach the board is a rite of passage.
- gf000 10d ago
  Well, would a dissected frontal lobe in and of itself be intelligence? I think the same goes for LLMs, they may be a core part of an LLM harness, but you may still need a couple other components (e.g. it may itself write itself a deterministic function to validate steps). In and of itself intelligence is an ill-defined and badly understood concept.
- themgt 10d ago
  Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? Why does a bird not need jet engines or regular professional maintenance?
topaz0 10d ago
You're pointing out that the goalposts are not fixed in the problem statement above, and gp's interpretation is not the most generous possible. But as the interpretations get more generous, the claim becomes more and more absurd. Maybe a properly-harnessed model would download the most advanced chess engine and query it to find the best move in each position, but that's not really demonstrating the model's intelligence anymore.
zahlman 9d ago
> but because false equivalence is all over the place in the space and maybe it’s a fine heuristic for you but probably not a real outcome when it comes to the capability of LLMs. This isn't just about judging LLM capability. This is about pointing out that these capabilities are not "AGI". If it were, then the sorts of questions your asking would be moot. I agree that Luna is not the frontier (although it is clearly better than the models in the study) and I agree that things can be improved with a better harness, but the need for that harness is kind of the point. Recently it was announced that the fruit fly brain connectome had been mapped, and more recently someone tried using it specifically to implement a chess engine. Even with some guardrails (it's hard-coded to never overlook mate in one for either player, and only legal moves are presented to choose from) it is not even beginner level. But that neural network is much larger than the one Stockfish uses.

datsci_est_2015 10d ago

Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? Frontier model’s failure modes are a direct refutation of claims that we’ve reached (or will soon reach) the artificial general intelligence. We may have reached an artificial general intelligence, but there may be more complexity to this than even AI thought leaders are talking / influencing about. Maybe not all AGIs have a path to digital singularity. Maybe our current era of intelligence modeling has fundamental flaws and we are in a local minimum of the artificial intelligence space. To note, I would bet with a good amount of certainty that we have enough compute power and automation to DDOS the internet out of existence with botnets. That doesn’t make the frontier models intelligent, that just makes their handlers reckless.

trio8453 10d ago
> Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? They're not guardrails, they're a different input/output environment.
solenoid0937 10d ago
Ask a 6 year old to draw a chess board from scratch every turn and they too will make mistakes.
- datsci_est_2015 10d ago
  A 6 year old will figure out how to ask you to help them after they get it wrong.
- freejazz 10d ago
  No one has spent the past three years telling me that a 6 year old will take my job!!!
  - claytongulick 10d ago
    And the 6 year old doesn't cost more than the GDP of a medium sized country.
    - sailfast 9d ago
      /s you should see how much private schools cost!
- wavemode 10d ago
  Hm? Drawing the next move's game state based on the current one is a very simple task. Chess academies are probably full of six-year-olds who could do this. For adults getting into playing tournament chess, losing to some kid barely tall enough to reach the board is a rite of passage.
gf000 10d ago
Well, would a dissected frontal lobe in and of itself be intelligence? I think the same goes for LLMs, they may be a core part of an LLM harness, but you may still need a couple other components (e.g. it may itself write itself a deterministic function to validate steps). In and of itself intelligence is an ill-defined and badly understood concept.
themgt 10d ago
Why does a 6 year old not need any of these guardrails? Why does a bird not need jet engines or regular professional maintenance?

topaz0 10d ago

You're pointing out that the goalposts are not fixed in the problem statement above, and gp's interpretation is not the most generous possible. But as the interpretations get more generous, the claim becomes more and more absurd. Maybe a properly-harnessed model would download the most advanced chess engine and query it to find the best move in each position, but that's not really demonstrating the model's intelligence anymore.

zahlman 9d ago

> but because false equivalence is all over the place in the space and maybe it’s a fine heuristic for you but probably not a real outcome when it comes to the capability of LLMs. This isn't just about judging LLM capability. This is about pointing out that these capabilities are not "AGI". If it were, then the sorts of questions your asking would be moot. I agree that Luna is not the frontier (although it is clearly better than the models in the study) and I agree that things can be improved with a better harness, but the need for that harness is kind of the point. Recently it was announced that the fruit fly brain connectome had been mapped, and more recently someone tried using it specifically to implement a chess engine. Even with some guardrails (it's hard-coded to never overlook mate in one for either player, and only legal moves are presented to choose from) it is not even beginner level. But that neural network is much larger than the one Stockfish uses.