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Ex-FTC boss Khan: break out the handcuffs for AI CEOs, citing 1934 precedent
- throwworhtthrow 11d agoSource: https://x.com/linamkhan/status/2099204390548639960 https://x.com/linamkhan/status/2099204390548639960 (seems like a single post, so you don't need to log in and see replies) I can't tell if Khan is being realistic when she says laws against “unfair or deceptive [acts]” or “unfair methods of competition” apply to AI labs. Her 2-sentence justifications aren't enough to convince me. But maybe it's sufficient for state AG's who want to start investigations.
- devindotcom 11d agoShe is a former FTC Chair so she knows what she's talking about, although her approach to enforcement was more expansive than others. The FTC would investigate, likely along the lines she summarizes, build a case in writing, and refer it to the Justice Dept, which would actually prosecute the case. Not going to happen under this administration, but Khan is saying it's entirely possible that such an enforcement action could be brought to bear, now or later. Personally I hope she gets her job back at some point and does it herself.
- throwworhtthrow 11d agoI would point out that someone having been FTC Chair does not inherently mean that they know what they are talking about, as demonstrated by the current FTC Chair. I certainly wish for this to be a productive line of attack against the AI labs, but I'd like to read a more thorough argument showing that it would hold up in court. (It's academic anyway; we'll all be paperclip'd by the time there's a change in administration and a prosecution can be brought and worked through appeals.)
- devindotcom 10d agothat's certainly fair - it doesn't necessarily follow. her specifically, being an expert before and having spent time as chair though, does tell me she is on target here.
- Nasrudith 10d agoShe isn't above demagoguery and bullshit slinging so I wouldn't treat her as infallible. Any more than the idiot with an axe to grind against Backdoor in a failed attempt to bolster a career.
- georgemcbay 11d ago> I can't tell if Khan is being realistic when she says laws against “unfair or deceptive [acts]” or “unfair methods of competition” apply to AI labs. Her 2-sentence justifications aren't enough to convince me. As I read it, her whole point is that those laws apply to everyone, including AI Labs. She isn't saying AI Labs are in violation of those laws (though she is implying they should be scrutinized for possibly being so), she's just saying that if they do violate those laws... well, those laws are already on the books and AI Labs aren't special unicorns for which existing laws somehow don't apply.
- chrisjj 11d agoI see nothing unrealistic about classing these so-called AI bots as "dangerous and defective product".
- fwlr 11d agoThe passage banning “unfair competition” is utterly marvellous: A trader may not, by pursuing a dishonest practice, force his competitors to choose between its adoption or the loss of their trade. A method of competition [is ‘unfair’ when it] casts upon one's competitors the burden of the loss of business unless they will descend to a practice which they are under a powerful moral compulsion not to adopt, even though it is not criminal… It is true that the statute does not authorize regulation which has no purpose other than that of relieving merchants from troublesome competition … But here the competitive method is shown to exploit [those] who are unable to protect themselves. It employs a device [that has] met with condemnation throughout the community. Without inquiring whether [other criminal statues apply] … it is clear that the practice is of the sort which the common law and criminal statutes have long deemed contrary to public policy. For these reasons a large share of the industry holds out against the device, despite ensuing loss in trade, or bows reluctantly to what it brands unscrupulous. It would seem a gross perversion of the normal meaning of the word … to hold that the method is not 'unfair.' Apply it immediately!
- homeonthemtn 11d ago^ further evidence that the problem with democracy isn't democracy, it's that we lack politicians willing to enforce it
- collingreen 11d agoIsn't that just the human problem for every possible form of government?
- Tractor8626 11d agoJust elect correct politicians doh
- zhivota 11d agoI was reading a post about the life of a congressman and it's actually horrifying, on the level of the stores of salarymen in Japan who sacrifice everything for the company. For me personally being famous is a curse already, pile on top of that the endless fundraising, constant travel, the reality that you're a tiny cog in a huge party machine, and it's a recipe for only attracting the type who has a plan to parlay it into something else - a higher office, a lucrative career in lobbying, outright corruption, etc. We're not going to get good government without addressing this issue, and we can't because of another issue, ad nauseam.
- afavour 11d agoIt won’t happen, but if it did the CEOs have no one but themselves to blame. They’re hyping up their products as being able to destroy the human race then are somehow surprised at the level of anti-AI sentiment out there in the world.
- mikrl 11d agoI honestly don’t know what anyone expected given all the labs started building self-driving malware at about the same time. I remember lots of people talking about running agents in VMs or on whole dedicated machines, yet barely anyone talking about how they were using mundane OS access controls.
- pjc50 11d agoIf the nuclear power or life sciences people were putting out press releases saying "our product may kill us all", they'd be dragged into endless Congressional inquiries.
- nfujd7 11d agoWasnt the Oppenheimer story basically that?
- pjc50 11d agoThere was https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2019/09/12/the_fear_that_a_nuclear_bomb_could_ignite_the_atmosphere.html https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2019/09/12/the_fear_th... , but that was (validly) dismissed by other scientists working on it, and also wasn't a discussion that was happening in public because the entire program was secret. "This will kill a lot of (other) people" was explicit in the building of the bomb, but then so was the entire war effort.
- deleted 11d ago[deleted]
- verdverm 11d ago> level of anti-AI sentiment out there in the world. I'd caution about projecting Western Ai attitudes onto the rest of the world. Some countries are very excited and optimistic about the future it brings, cultures and circumstances give rise to differences in opinions. One of many results showing a similar pattern, largely bifurcated along "the west" vs "the rest", or "modern economies" vs "third world" ("common terms" used even though I'm not a fan of them) https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report/public-opinion https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-report/publi...
- int32_64 11d agoAaron Swartz was facing up to 35 years for wire fraud and hacking for swiping some JSTOR documents, and the DOJ has done nothing against the AI companies and their IP violating antics.
- gruez 11d ago>and the DOJ has done nothing against the AI companies and their IP violating antics. For good reason. Courts have so far ruled AI training is fair use, and it doesn't look likely to be overturned by the supreme court. Theres also the matter of some labs pirating books to get training data, which is illegal (they lost in civil court), but it's unclear whether that can be criminally prosecuted.
- adastra22 11d agoHacking other companies is illegal as far as I understand.
- gruez 11d ago1. OP specifically mentioned "IP violating antics", not hacking 2. All the hacking legislation (and criminal law in general) require proving intent, which so far as we can tell didn't exist in those cases. At best you can try some "reckless" or "negligent" angle, but that would a novel legal argument and would be risky to prosecute
- someothherguyy 11d ago> All the hacking legislation (and criminal law in general) require proving intent No, they don't, see laws that make negligent behavior illegal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
- crote 11d agoBut officer, I didn't mean for my autonomous bank vault busting robot to autonomously bust any bank vaults!
- VCFundedGenYer 11d agoIt’s definitely happening in 2029 if the election goes a certain way. They all know that too. There WILL be an end to this.
- DarmokTanagra 11d ago[dead]
- verdverm 11d agoThe most extreme Dems are not winning primaries, just like MAGA. Most people do not want the extremes of either side, both political parties are shrinking because they are so out of touch. 2029 is a long way away, I hope to see the White House restored to its former glory over today's perspective on what Ai regulation should be, by a long shot, one is tangible, the other is based in theoretical fears. Context, I volunteer in my local Indivisible, the tone is changing because the anti-ai people are now also finding certain uses of Ai really nice and now acceptable. It's no longer ban Ai and data centers, it's craft reasonable legislation. Expect to see more after the midterms, we'll be working with the Washington State legislature to craft laws we hope are a model for other states / countries, as WA has done in other areas like voting rights and civil liberties.
- xnx 11d agoAI is a very competitive market where consumers are getting the product for much less than it costs. This does not seem like an area where the government needs to butt in. Attention would be better spent on long list of other poorly behaved companies: cable ISP monopolies, health insurance companies, home insurance companies, etc.
- lenerdenator 11d agoBear with me here: we could do all of them. You can get these companies under control. You just have to, y'know, try.
- seemaze 11d agowe could do all of them, but they all seem to be up to date on their tithe. AI has a somewhat mixed record of tribute.
- NewJazz 11d agoWhy wouldn't the government have incentive to intervene to end a market inefficiency like the one you described?
- stale2002 11d agoBecause the goal of government policy is to help consumers, thats why.
- WalterBright 11d agoKhan has never been employed by a business nor ever run a business. She's never had to meet a payroll, nor prepared a P&L statement. Her entire career has been spent in research, academia, public policy, and government oversight.
- adestefan 11d agoSo what.
- WalterBright 11d agoTheory and practice are different things.
- collingreen 11d agoAnd therefore shouldn't be allowed to have opinions on crime and antitrust? Is that your argument?
- int3 11d agoduh? why would you want someone with no experience making decisions?
- seemaze 11d agoDepends on if you're referring to experience defrauding the American public, or protecting the American public. That can have different answers depending on what which side of the transaction you sit.
- throwaway_7274 11d agoWhat does experience mean? Does only private-sector experience "count?" Should we remove Alito from the bench on those grounds?
- WalterBright 11d ago
- EGreg 11d agoIf you execute a ponzi scheme with thousands of degens — but it’s magic crypto tokens When you perpetrate a huge hacking job with thousands of attackers — but it’s magic agent swarms
- arjie 11d agoAll these things do is market a preemptive universal Presidential pardon - Hunter Biden style. And this President successfully sells those. So I suppose it’s marketing to enrich him.
- xhevahir 11d agoYou're suggesting that Lina Khan is trying to give Trump an opportunity to pardon AI company people?
- verdverm 11d agoby suggesting criminal prosecution of his "friends" (has none in reality) after he is not president, Khan is indirectly giving Trump an excuse to use Biden's excuse for his son (which I still support him having done given the other petty uses of the US govt Donald the Trump has use in 2.0)
- arjie 11d agoNo. I think I was quite clear. Lina Khan is providing marketing for Trump's paid pardon by pre-registering a procedure for a government aligned with her interests to prosecute AI CEOs. What she is trying to do or trying not to do was not something I addressed. She does have a track record of achieving things she probably did not intend: e.g. ensuring total Chinese dominance of US household robotics.
- overfeed 11d ago> She does have a track record of achieving things she probably did not attend: e.g. ensuring total Chinese dominance of US household robotics. Why should the FTC consider the policy of another sovereign when investigating domestic anti-trust violations? Either you have the rule of law that binds everyone equally, or you have the rule of man who chooses which parties are allowed to break the law for outcomes in random market slices, like avoiding the dominance of US household robotics.Where would that end?
- rustcleaner 11d agoGod I would love to see Sam Altman behind bars for cornering the DRAM silicon market. Even though there were other factors, I uniquely place him as the destroyer of home computing this decade!
- nl 11d agoThe Register of course take what Kahn says (where he is arguing that no new laws need to be created to regulate AI) and taking extending it to say "breakout the handcuffs". Kahn doesn't even imply that. Instead he's making a well reasoned point about using existing tools (as many in this discussion point out existing laws could be applied to inadequately controlled cyber incidents)
- georgemcbay 11d agoLina Khan is a woman. Not that it is particularly relevant here, but just letting you know.
- nl 11d agoThanks - I didn't realise and it was lazy of me to write like that.
- chneu 11d agoKahn is a woman.
- jiaosdjf 11d agoWe will get back at these CEOs by stealing their IP. China is already doing so and releasing weights, China of all people is playing modern Robbin Hood, albeit because they don't have the compute or trust. It is non-negotiable that humanity "owns" AI and that LLMs, future model architectures and modern robotics are used by all to build a better world for all. This doesn't mean there can't be proprietary tech but it does mean that any corporation who attempts to rip the positive vision of humans not having to do any work from us - must be ripped to shreds themselves. The alternative is absolute surveillance of all citizens at all times and robot armies keeping us from protesting, while globalists squeeze every last drop out of the planet for themselves and we are forced to own nothing and eat the bugs. You will have to fight for this, there will be no laws or government intervention.
- roughly 11d agoThe “agents” framing around the frontier labs is obscuring the truth: OpenAI and Anthropic built software systems that were then used to commit cybercrime at a massive scale, which they’ve subsequently bragged about. Talk about “agents” as a way of deflecting blame is obfuscatory at best - LLMs are software algorithms, not conscious entities, and responsibility for their actions is on the company that made them and the employee or user who operated them.
- DoctorOetker 11d agoI'm surprised nobody makes a connection with animal ownership / responsibility. If your dog maims someone else, you are responsible for the dog's actions, unless it was self-defense. On the other hand, if people start arguing that if LLM's are like animals, some will start arguing they're like Godzilla..., or at least a panther, but there's probably laws against keeping arbitrarily dangerous / powerful animals as pets. Perhaps animal welfare should intervene and house ChatGPT,etc. in better conditions?
- ben_w 11d ago> Perhaps animal welfare should intervene and house ChatGPT,etc. in better conditions? I first saw a headline to the effect that this was a PETA some decades ago. I cannot recall now if this was April 1st, an instance of Gell-Mann amnesia, or sincere.
- illwrks 11d agoWhile I agree, that isn’t true of all pets. It doesn’t apply to cats for example. I’ve pasted an extract from a UK guide on legal responsibilities of cat ownership below, which to me sounds similar to AI. If the inbuilt behaviour is ‘it’s nature’ then perhaps there is less legal repercussions if the tool does something outside of its known guardrail/guidelines to meet its goal. “Cat owners are generally not responsible for the 'normal' behaviour of cats because the law accepts that cats tend to wander into other properties and have instincts which, for example, lead them to prey on small birds. So cat owners should be reassured that the simple fact of their cat trespassing onto a neighbour's land would not make them responsible if, for example, the cat kills a pigeon or garden bird, urinates on plants or flowers, or defecates in a neighbour's soil. These would be 'normal' cat behaviours that would be expected” https://www.gccfcats.org/ownership-health-welfare/owning-a-cat/cats-and-the-law/ https://www.gccfcats.org/ownership-health-welfare/owning-a-c...
- hypercube33 11d agoThat's a highly weird law. Someone let the cat outside or feeds/keeps it there thus should accept the way cats are as their responsibility.
- ChrisMarshallNY 11d agoEvery frontier exec: “KHAAAAAAN!!” Sorry. Couldn’t resist. (Star Trek reference)
- T3RMINATED 11d ago[dead]
- MadrasTh0rn 11d agoYes the federal government can assert itself if laws are broken. The federal government won't smother nascent technology. I think that trigger point is far into the future.
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