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The Beauty of Roundabouts
- pocketman 10d agoRoundabouts are superior to other intersection types in nearly every case. Two lane roundabouts are a notable exception.
- jkubicek 10d agoTwo lane roundabouts are fantastic if you’re familiar with the intersection. If you’re not it’s too easy to get shunted out of the roundabout early
- rudolftheone 10d agoimho the only kind of acceptable 2-lane roundabout is a turbo-roundabout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts
- qingcharles 10d agoI feel like the author would appreciate Milton Keynes, which is an entire city of 180 roundabouts on a grid system: https://lostcolonials.wordpress.com/2015/09/20/milton-keynes-city-in-the-forest/ https://lostcolonials.wordpress.com/2015/09/20/milton-keynes... Fun for drifting late at night. Like a chav version of tōge from Initial D.
- ngruhn 10d agoAppreciate indeed. Thanks for the reference
- Quiza12 10d agoOne additional benefit (or at least an unproven, theoretical benefit): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbJJ8UhM1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbJJ8UhM1I
- Bimos 10d agoI was hoping that it was "404 not found"
- propter_hoc 10d agoMy best friend is a highly experienced civil engineer, specialized in designing intersections. His take on roundabouts: - They are adored by urban planners because they look nice and you can put a statue or fountain in the middle - They reduce T-bone collisions However: - Small fender benders and sideswipes are much more frequent - They use way more area - They work where each direction has an approximately equal amount of traffic. However, usually, one direction (north/south, say) has a larger share of the traffic. In those cases, the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that's bleeding on or off the main artery. In those cases, a traffic light is better because the timing can be adjusted to the proportion of traffic from each direction (and more flexible since it can be adjusted over time). - Finally, they're also (mostly) worse for cyclists and pedestrians. Essentially, they have use cases, especially in small towns, and they're pretty, but they're usually not the right engineering solution.
- emil-lp 10d agoIt would be interesting to know your (friend's) country of origin.
- Freedom2 10d agoI live in the US and roundabouts simply don't work.
- xethos 10d agoNot much of America's traffic infrastructure works well. Every month, combined with poorly trained motorists, it contributes to another 9/11's worth of fatalities. The infrastructure you think works, kills enough people for a thirteenth month at the end of every year. They have their downsides, but "It doesn't work in America" is more informative of American motorists than roundabouts
- TacticalCoder 10d agoYeah I regularly drive in France which has terrible drivers (road deaths way above EU average in France) but it's nowhere near as bad as the US. The one thing people should ponder is this: Germany has less than 3x the number of road deaths (no matter how you count it: per 100 K people, per kilometer, etc.) than the US. And yet every time I'm in Germany I happily drive at 125 mph on the highway (including when I drive to Poland, where most autobahns near Dresde have no speed limit at all whatsoever). And at 125 mph, I'll get overtaken by some cars going proper fast. So, what, 65 to 70 mph max speed limit vs unlimited speed and three times the deaths: what's the problem? Note that I'm certainly not advocating for US (or France for that matter) highways without speed limits: drivers are way too bad.
- YuechenLi 10d agoThe key disadvantage of a roundabout is that it takes up more space and is harder to setup than plopping down a couple of stop signs. They are awesome otherwise, I do like them better for low traffic intersections though because I don't have to stop and think about if the next car is going to yield or not.
- kazinator 10d agoOnly large roundabouts take space. Small roundabouts can easily be retrofitted into small, unguarded residential neighborhood intersections without clawing back any sidewalk corners. They just plop a curbed-off circle in the middle of the intersection, leaving a narrow passage around it. Now a car going straight has to swerve into a crosswalk that is going in the same direction. Massive win!
- Bimos 10d agoI think here in China we are not super fan of roundabouts. But we got a 4-lane roundabout with traffic lights [1] and a roundabout on elevated roads with traffic lights. [2] [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/rY6AH8nUEKvRuk1LA https://maps.app.goo.gl/rY6AH8nUEKvRuk1LA [2] https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wea6Wt5FwHgKmG4C9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wea6Wt5FwHgKmG4C9
- herbst 12d agoThe city I grew up in had no roundabouts back then. Today it does have some, some were even made and removed again since. People there hate roundabouts. The city I live nearby now has so many roundabouts that I can drive for over an hour without seeing a traffic light. It always had those, people are used to using them. Guess what works better and barely has any traffic issues at all.
- LargoLasskhyfv 12d agoAs a bicyclist I hate them, at least the smaller ones. Because they slow me down, can't take them with 40 to 50 kph, need to slow down to 30. But that was the intent, yes? However, crossings with traffic lights I can take at any speed I'm able to, when they are green for me, and I don't need to turn. Or if I can oversee them from afar, and they are empty, and I can give a shit about 'lights'.
- herbst 12d agoSome roundabouts here have bike pass troughs on the side (obviously only works if there is no turn to that side) for speedy drivers like you. Other than that it's obviously by design. There is no reason to speed at constant 50kph in a city. Nether for a car, motorbike or e-bike.
- rightnutwingjob 10d agoThe think I don’t like about not being able to “speed” at 50kph(!) through a city is that, at least in Australia with it’s excessive compliment of bureaucratic Karens, is the 30 > 50 > 70 > 60 > 40 > 30 > SCHOOL ZONE > 80 > 40 > 50 > 30 nightmare. Which does two things, raises state revenue and causes drivers to spend way to much time concentrating on how fast they are going rather than driving to suit the conditions and paying focusing to what’s going on in front of them. And don’t get me started on the pot holes.
- sagarm 10d agoSounds like you'd prefer just setting a single safe speed of 30?
- brudgers 12d ago[edit: for clarity, I am not against roundabouts] I don't have real expertise in civil engineering Traffic lights have a smaller physical footprint and require less construction activity. Traffic lights fit on a cost spectrum from two stop sighs, to four stop signs, to stop signs plus blinking lights, to non-trivial signaling. First make it work. Then make it good. Then make it fast. Engineering is not a one size fits all discipline. [edit: I have a background in urban planning, architecture, and real-estate development]
- rightnutwingjob 10d agoYou forgot roundabouts with traffic lights. Here’s one in Australia near Perth: https://youtu.be/h8lhX9Q6Z5g?si=eloUWLcH8q3eJiZH https://youtu.be/h8lhX9Q6Z5g?si=eloUWLcH8q3eJiZH And I’m certain I’ve driven through other roundabouts with traffic lights in other states.
- Jarmsy 10d agoIn England we even have roundabouts of roundabouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)
- rightnutwingjob 10d agoOoo! I like that one!
- markb139 10d agoI’ve driven around the Hemel Hempstead one a few times. Very confusing when I first saw the sign.
- perilunar 10d agoI know of a couple in NSW: one in Albion Park, and another in Bomaderry. They work well when the peak-hour traffic tends to block some of the entrances. You can use the lights to allow the blocked entrances to flow, then turn the lights off out of peak-hour.
- teddyh 10d ago> Roundabouts come with this otherwise unused patch of land in the middle. Apparently, it has become common practice around the world to put some random art there, or a little green space, or a fountain, or a "welcome to this town" sign. Or a dog: <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roundabout_dog&oldid=1372436733 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roundabout_dog&ol...>
- magarnicle 10d agoI wish local councils wouldn't insist on putting in shrubs that block the line of site across the roundabout.
- gs17 10d agoAgreed, it can be really hard to get around a roundabout as a pedestrian if it's not designed for it, and then they make it so both you and people entering don't know each other are there until you're about to get hit.
- orthoxerox 10d agoAccording to Wikipedia, these shrubs are there for a reason. Denmark has found that blocking the line of sight significantly reduces the accident rate by forcing the drivers to slow down and consider only their immediate surroundings. Danish drivers hate them, anyway.
- ninalanyon 10d agoThey are there to make you slow down.
- deleted 10d ago[deleted]
- olyjohn 10d agoThe advantages aren't "theoretical." It's 100% proven that they're safer, cheaper over the long term, and flow more traffic than a red light.
- grebc 10d agoI like roundabouts over lights at small intersections. I still prefer simple give way/stop that changes the next intersection over roundabouts. Lights suck unless there’s sufficient traffic.
- projektfu 10d agoI've lived some places where 4-way stops were just abused, like Sugarland, TX. England and Ireland are full of roundabouts, some of which are incredibly small, just a painted dot, and some are giant multi-lane white-knuckle nightmares. There are places with good traffic light setups, but traffic lights generally suffer from the same problems of sometimes stopping traffic for no good reason while also encouraging excess speed. In my current city, I can identify at least 3 intersections that would be better as a roundabout, but I don't have my hopes up.
- grebc 10d agoYeah, I know what you mean by abusing 4 way stops being abused. Thankfully I moved from there a long time ago. Also where I moved from recently, they changed a roundabout intersection into a traffic lights intersection. And the traffic used to flow. Now it’s a stand still. There’s always so many little insights when you use the road daily that a planner will never have unless they do the same. Melbourne where I am kind of close to now, has an absolute clusterf*ck of overpasses, underpasses, toll ways, free ways, tunnels all coming & going out of a neatly planned grid. They probably think it’s planning perfection while driving it as a non-resident is an absolute nightmare. Sydney which is famously poo poo’d for not being planned in Australia is 10x more straight forward to drive.
- UltraSane 10d agoThey replaced a intersection near me that would get backed up very badly during rush hour with a roundabout that has a much higher capacity and never seems to get backed up.
- Sohcahtoa82 10d ago> Lights suck unless there’s sufficient traffic. This is basically it. Roundabouts make sense for low/moderate traffic, but you get to a point where the traffic gets so heavy that a roundabout just clogs things up, especially when traffic is primarily coming from one direction. I will die on one hill though: 4-way Stop intersections should absolutely never exist, and any situation where you think a 4-way Stop is appropriate should be replaced with a roundabout.
- pornel 10d agoThis dreaming about roundabouts is as American as the fantasies about using metric one day.
- orev 10d agoThey’re being used often in new construction areas. It’s just not likely that they’ll be retrofitted to existing areas due to needing more space than regular intersections.
- derbOac 10d agoThey are everywhere in the areas around me now. I had a similar sentiment at one time and now they seem pretty common. I think roundabouts work fantastically well in some places but in others they are unnecessary and in others don't work as well as alternatives. Maybe that's obvious but every so often I feel like they are overapplied — probably because of what you're mentioning, along with the fact they were underapplied in other areas in the past. I've come to like them usually but sometimes it feels like the civil engineers were having too much fun at the cost of practicality.
- UltraSane 10d agoRoundabouts are much more common in the US than they were 10 years ago.
- pkamb 10d agoNowadays, depending on your state, they're being built in almost every new intersection that would call for one. And the worst existing intersections converted to them. It's happening and will only speed up.
- rusty_rick 10d agoThis led me down somewhat of a rabbit hole looking at roundabouts, then to the official roundabout page from the Department of Transportation, where I couldn't believe my eyes to see that National Roundabout Week is next week: https://highways.dot.gov/safety/intersection-safety/nrw https://highways.dot.gov/safety/intersection-safety/nrw
- qingcharles 10d agoYou almost missed it!
- kazinator 10d agoNational Roundabout Week should be two weeks separated by a week, so that if you missed the first week, you just wait another week and it comes around again.
- ngruhn 10d agoAuthor here. Wow that's amazing unintended timing!
- elisbce 10d agoIt is so funny to read this because in reality, roundabouts are some of the worst traffic congestion makers :)
- UltraSane 10d agoThis is completely wrong. Well designed roundabouts work very well.
- erelong 10d agoI think I prefer maybe the simplicity of 4 way (or even 2 way) stops There are some funny intersection videos from idk what country that have no stop signs or lights or roundabouts and somehow lots of people still manage to get through them
- mig39 10d agoThe big difference is that when you have a collision at a 4-way or 2-way stop, it is almost always a "T-Bone" collision, where all the energy hits at a right angle. These collisions kill, especially at speed. A similar collision on a roundabout is almost always a "glancing" blow, at an angle, and rarely causes injury or death. Roundabouts force you to slow down when approaching. Stop signs can be ignored. Roundabouts can't.
- lexicality 10d agoThere are quite a lot of videos of people ignoring roundabouts, and some of them even land on their wheels and keep going afterwards
- bigfatkitten 10d agoThese are extremely uncommon events, and when they do occur, the driver’s consumption of alcohol and/or methamphetamine is often a contributing factor.
- esafak 10d agoI was in Aruba recently, and I discovered that they had entirely replaced their traffic lights with roundabouts. Easier to maintain and more efficient in the island's low-traffic regime.
- leo_ilands 10d ago[dead]
- somat 10d agoReminder that technically a 4-way stop is the smallest possible roundabout.
- orthoxerox 10d agoNot quite. It has to be a 4-way yield and you have to make your left turn after the painted dot/concrete hemiball, not across it.
- somat 10d agoRoundabouts often have stop signs, usually when you really need to slow traffic down(lots of pedestrian use)
- pasc1878 10d agoIn the UK I have seen 3 way roundabouts In the highway code see rule 190 for two threeway roundabouts stuck together. https://highwaycode.org.uk/roundabouts/ https://highwaycode.org.uk/roundabouts/ Wikipedia shows a few e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Germany,_Sachsen-Anhalt,_S%C3%BCdharz,_Uftrungen_(1).JPG https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Germany,_Sachsen-Anh... https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloo,_Ontario,_mini-roundabout_at_Union_Street_East_and_Margaret_Avenue_South.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloo,_Ontario,_m...
- gorgoiler 10d agoRoundabouts are the Segway of civil engineering. In theory, a game changing transport innovation. In practice, just a little too mismatched with everyday aesthetics to properly fit in. Dorky and annoying for pedestrians too! Good old traffic lights have a much better feature of being able to control traffic to allow for pedestrians, give cyclists a head start, give smaller side roads a look in at busy junctions, and giving a platform for traffic monitoring.
- kj4211cash 10d agoIt's so funny seeing most of the comments, plus the original article, implying that roundabouts are always better or always worse than traffic signals. As someone who used to be a Transportation Engineering professor, they have a time and place where they outperform traffic signals but it's definitely not everywhere. It is known and there are many traffic simulation software tools that will give you a pretty good indication of what will happen if you put a roundabout here or a traffic signal there. This thread reminds me of when my libertarian friend was explaining to me how traffic shows how everything can work well when everyone acts in their own self interest. Well, sure, except for all the traffic laws, the difference between User and System Optimal that traffic engineers spend much of their lives trying to bridge, and, you know, the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere. Sigh. I'm not saying Transportation Engineering is the most important, innovative field, but funny things happen when not transportation engineers talk about transportation systems.
- pkamb 10d agoA major reappraisal is currently happening in the entire industry, which for too long has been focused solely on the throughput of single-occupancy vehicles. Roundabouts offer many advantages over traffic signals, even the ones that "outperform" them. It's probably a good thing that we've stopped listening only to transportation engineers focused on moving cars as quickly and efficiently as possible.
- ds_opseeker 10d ago> my libertarian friend was explaining to me how traffic shows how everything can work well when everyone acts in their own self interest. Well, sure, except for all the traffic laws, the difference between User and System Optimal that traffic engineers spend much of their lives trying to bridge, and, you know, the fact that it took an enormous effort by government to build smooth roads and put up signs everywhere. Love this. Likewise "free markets" which work great when embedded in a system of laws and regulations. Or more critically, in a high-trust system where people keep their word because that's what matters. But not sure how many people are in favor of the more unregulated black markets, where contracts are enforced by rule of violence instead of rule of law. As if we've forgotten Hobbes, and the horrors he lived through which informed his philosophy.
- pi-err 10d agoMaybe, living in France where maybe half the roundabouts of the world exist, I have been exposed to too much beauty. But mostly I see roundabouts as one of the most depressing, ugly and environmentally-destructive gimmicks of 20th century car culture.
- grougnax 10d agoOne of many reasons France suck.
- M95D 10d agoDid anyone study the fuel efficiency of a roundabout vs. traffic light? I expect it to be a lot worse. - roundabout, light traffic : break, turn, accelerate again, 100% of the time - (dumb) traffic light, light traffic: 50% chance of stopping and accelerating again, 50% chance of not slowing down at all. - roundabout, heavy traffic : stop, move 3m, stop again, move 3m more, stop again, repeat 10 times, finally turn, accelerate. - traffic light, heavy traffic: stop & engine off, start & move 100m, stop & engine off, start again and accelerate.
- embedding-shape 10d agoYou're missing the variations where you have stop lights to go into the roundabout or the even worse variant, roundabouts that are large enough to have 3-4 zones of stoplights inside of the roundabout itself! I'll take a roundabout any time of the day, but then I mostly to drive out in the public when the traffic is the least, so any stop lights tend to be more annoying that useful.
- Miksel12 10d agoStreetcraft on Youtube compared 2 similar routes, one with roundabouts and one with traffic lights. They found roundabouts to be quicker and more fuel efficient: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=012fMI3TdRo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=012fMI3TdRo
- throwawayffffas 10d agoMythbusters did a test of roundabouts vs fourway intersections (no lights), many years ago. Their conclusion i believe was they were about the same in pretty much all regards. It was highly synthetic, people driving around a small course with roundabouts or fourway intersections, continuously for an hour or something.
- chris_money202 10d agoSurprised Carmel, Indiana hasn’t been mentioned in article or comments. They replaced almost every single stoplight and stop sign intersection in the town with roundabouts. Think the number of roundabouts in the town is in the hundreds
- AndrewSwift 10d agoOne thing the US could do to make traffic lights a lot safer is copy eg France and only show the lights on the near side of the intersection. In France, if you move up too far, you can no longer see what color the light is — consequently everyone waits back where they should. In the US, you can edge out into the traffic and still see your light.
- embedding-shape 10d ago> In France, if you move up too far, you can no longer see what color the light is — consequently everyone waits back where they should. Not sure this will stop people. In Spain we have the same, the stop lights go before the pedestrian zebra thing, yet still some people think you're supposed to stop on top of the zebras, beyond the stoplight, then they wait for someone behind them to blink. No, makes no sense to me either.
- vlowrian 10d ago[dead]
- INTPenis 10d agoYou can tell which countries are pros at roundabouts based on the number of direction arrows in them.
- Zobat 10d agoObligatory link to the clip where a TV interview about a dangerous roundabout catches an accident on film. There's English captions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBtrEZpa6OQ&pp=ygUQcm9uZGVsbCBpbnRlcnZqdQ%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBtrEZpa6OQ&pp=ygUQcm9uZGVsb... Yes, roundabouts are good, but there's things to consider.
- frereubu 10d agoI enjoyed driving around Lanzarote in the Canary Islands because you'd occasionally see roundabouts with wind-driven sculptures by César Manrique - e.g. https://maps.app.goo.gl/mzK8by7shYJ2yvYC9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/mzK8by7shYJ2yvYC9 - an artist who lived there. His house, built into the volcanic rock, was beautiful too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Manrique#/media/File:Cesar_Manrique_home.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9sar_Manrique#/media/Fil...
- daltont 10d agoI'm old enough to be "triggered" by the word "Roundabout" to have this "Yes" song to start playing in my head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOrrNM4md8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOrrNM4md8c
- Macha 10d agoI wonder, does the song have more fans today because of Jojo, or because of fans from when Yes were in their prime?
- paulnpace 10d agoThese don't work in the U.S. as everyone fantasizes they do. An important note: in the U.S., the vast majority of jurisdictions permit making a right turn on a red light, and some, including the state of Oregon, permit making a left turn onto a one way road from a red light. In high congestion areas, such as here in Las Vegas Valley, many drivers will not fill a right lane at a red light when they are not turning right as a courtesy to those needing to turn right at the intersection. During commute hours, everyone disobeys all laws to get home or get to work. When there are regularly spaced roundabouts on a long stretch of road, drivers get exceptionally impatient and will drive at the performance limits of the vehicles, late-braking like they are F1 drivers. This ends up grouping all of the drivers into a very solid wolf pack who will not stop for anyone and will speed through the roundabout, making it impossible for pedestrians and drivers other onramps to enter the roundabout. The vast majority of drivers do not know how to use the roundabout, as is evidenced when they enter from the left lane of a two-lane road and use the exit lane that is only marked for use from the right lane. Americans who know how to use the roundabout respond to this by habitually stopping at the roundabout entrance when they see a car in any lane entering the roundabout at high speed, which is most vehicles. Then the drivers behind the stopped vehicle think the stopped vehicle is driven by someone who doesn't know how to drive on a roundabout and begin honking incessantly or attempting to illegally pass the stopped driver. Henderson, Nevada provides many such examples of this. Most interesting to me is that parts of the town have nearly identical roads that are served by either only traffic signals or only roundabouts. My experience is that the roads with traffic signals have far fewer issues than the roads with roundabouts.
- UltraSane 10d agoEvery roundabout I've seen installed has been a huge improvement over what it replaced.
- paulnpace 10d agoEvery time I find myself on one of the roads that has a series of roundabouts, I have to maneuver at least once to avoid getting into an accident with a driver who has no idea how to drive through a roundabout.
- GregDavidson 9d agoA UK roundabout us not a European traffic circle or a new traffic calming device. The commentary is conflating at least four entirely different things! A UK roundabout has no place for a decorative feature in the middle. It is a device of ruthless efficiency with typically nothing in the middle but a shiny brass plate in the center set flush with the pavement. Traffic barely slows and rarely stops in the UK, necessitating pedestrian underpasses, Pelican crossings, et al.