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I posted a flavor of this comment on an article a few months ago, but it's relevant here: I have a seven year old Volkswagen, not financed. I'm security consci
by bitparadox 21d ago
I posted a flavor of this comment on an article a few months ago, but it's relevant here:
I have a seven year old Volkswagen, not financed. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app before removing my account, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc.
Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation with red subtext along the lines of 'this is less than the last reported mileage of 75345, reported <5 or so days prior>'. Checking my odometer and looking at my past few days' trips, that was indeed accurate.
The car hadn't been to a shop or out of my possession in weeks, so I can only assume the telemetry was still dialing home and selling to third parties despite my best efforts to disable it.
- trouve_search 21d agoCouldn't you put some sort of faraday cage around the antenna?
- anjel 21d agoWhat happened to just pulling (the mfr's) sim card?
- greesil 21d agoNot trivial, not impossible
- antonkochubey 21d agoIt’s often an eSIM
- Simulacra 21d agoWhat did you do, or what are you going to do? That would piss me off until i found the antenna and broke it
- bookofjoe 21d ago"Resistance is futile." See also: LG TVs, etc.
- otterley 21d agoIt’s not futile. Write your congressperson and state representatives. If enough people do this around the country, laws will eventually be passed to prevent it.
- wwweston 21d agoThis is why there are moral panics about things people feel in their guts: most people are reasonably easily unsettled and distracted by queer people, people who look different, people their people don’t trust being in charge. It works. Most people are happier focusing and holding forth on that and repeating familiar statements than they are talking to congressional staff about policy. Your car that you paid a lot for and you like and have positive useful experiences with every day? That’s going to be way farther down the list of things to worry about.
- smohare 21d ago[dead]
- noman-land 21d agoTry finding the fuse and pulling it. It will be in the manual.
- glitchcrab 21d agoI would be very surprised if it was that simple - systems in modern cars are so interlinked that I would expect that pulling a fuse would cause something else to break, resulting in dash lights or broken functionality.
- morkalork 21d agoIn my car it's on the same circuit as the infotainment system which does kinda make sense but also, damn them.
- mistrial9 21d ago> it's on the same circuit as the infotainment system isn't it not-funny that the super-invasive Google profiling and ID checks are also part of "Google Play" ?
- trevithick 21d agoIt's possible to find workarounds for things like this. One example: https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/69018.html https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/69018.html
- Espressosaurus 21d agoTypically it’s tied to other components and pulling the fuse will take out other things like infotainment, speakers, etc.
- eur0pa 20d agoVery sadly, pulling the DCM fuse in a modern Toyota Yaris (EU/JP market) kills Bluetooth and front-right speaker to
- cineticdaffodil 21d ago[dead]
- vikingerik 21d agoAll it would need is a wi-fi antenna internally, and then it could connect to an open wi-fi network anywhere. And it's going to be pretty much impossible to avoid ever driving your car within range of some open network.
- 10000truths 21d agoIt would have to find an open Wi-Fi network that isn't gated behind a captive portal, which is very rare. Rare enough that most telemetry would be too stale to be useful.
- mixmastamyk 21d agoCable ISPs such as Spectrum sell capacity on their customers routers for such situations, including ‘smart’ appliances.
- deleted 21d ago[deleted]
- toomuchtodo 21d agoXfinity (Comcast) does the same, and the LG TV data leak demonstrated it joining these open “xfinitywifi” SSIDs to transmit telemetry home (edit: retracted, see below subthread). You can see a map of these nodes with https://wigle.net/ https://wigle.net/
- discostrings 21d agoPlease provide a source for this claim. While LG TVs send a lot of private data when connected to the internet, I'm not aware of any credible reports that they automatically connect to open or partner-provided wifi networks without a user choosing to do so. It's certainly a threat to keep an eye open for, but it seems manufacturers haven't quite stooped to that low yet.
- 21d ago
- torginus 21d agoTangential, but one of the concerns I have about these 'smart' cars is they have an expiration deadline. There's an exceedingly common type of failure I have seen myself in industrial electronics and (has happened with Tesla at least once), that some module keeps a log of some kind in a nonvolatile flash, and this flash has a limited lifecycle, which the equipment reaches at some years into its life (or earlier, if the flash came from a bad batch, or more logging happens than planned). At this point the board usually gets bricked and replacement is very hard due to cryptographic handshakes between components.
- aceazzameen 21d agoThey've become cell phones on wheels. I'm disappointed with what vehicles (and phones too!) have become.
- taraindara 21d agoI share the sentiment. I want a new car, but only if I can guarantee all telemetry is hard disabled. But I don’t have the kind of money to buy a new car and risk bricking it. Luckily I’m pretty handy, so I’ll have to keep my 2014< cars forcefully running as long as I can.
- hdgvhicv 21d agoI have non concerns about having a built in button to phone emergency services. I don’t even mind if it auto rings in a crash. I’m even happy to provide position to the emergency service in the event of dialing them. Manufacturers use this capacity as an excuse to push more adtech penny and dime data abuse, knowing half the world will blame the government.
- fn-mote 21d agoYour cell phone could easily call for help in a crash without the car being involved at all.
- drnick1 21d ago> turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could This is never enough. You can't trust a software switch. You need to remove the hardware capability if you want to make sure the car isn't spying on you. In the best case, the telematics box has it's own fuse, and that may be enough. In other cases, you need to find the box and unplug it. The service manual will have it's location. In some cars it's easily accessible, in others less so and you need to remove the glove box or part of the dash. Dealers will probably refuse to do it, my advice would be to DIY or find an independent mechanic who will do it.
- jasonjayr 21d agoFind the telematic's antenna, and put a 50ohm resistor across it. It can scream into it's own private void.
- snypher 21d agoI Have No Antenna, and I Must Transmit.
- publlus_enigma 21d agoI am stealing this for the name of my first album.
- bookofjoe 20d agoHere you go: https://imgur.com/a/AR2iLjw https://imgur.com/a/AR2iLjw
- drnick1 21d agoIt seems like this is not enough: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-disabling-the-dcm-telematics-silencing-antennas.821649/ https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-dis... The most reliable way to permanently silence the cellular modem is to pull the relevant fuse. In the above case, this also disables the microphone, which I think is a positive. Unplugging the DCM entirely, however, seems to disable to right speaker, which is wired through the DCM for some reason.
- samsullivan 21d agoYour mileage went from VW->telematics vendor->broker->carfax, thats the chain it usually follows. The fuse stops it but the real issue is the owner is the only one without the record. You could probably find some interesting info if you send out some privacy requests through the chain. LexisNexis and Verisk are consumer reporting agencies, so they have to provide you a disclosure on request. Start there.
- e40 21d agoIs there usually a fuse that just turns off the telemetry? I would be surprised if that is the case. I could see the design being "if you turn this fuse off to turn off telemetry, you'll also lose these functions: ..." and if they did it "right" they'd make the car non-functional. My car is from 2011 and I do wonder if there is any telemetry in it.
- brookst 21d agoYeah an electrical fuse for telemetry seems really odd. Even without malice it would be strange if disconnecting power to some part of the computer only affected telemetry. I could see a fuse for cellular comms, be presumably that would also disable maps, contacting emergency services in an accident, etc. which might be an acceptable tradeoff.
- kevin_thibedeau 21d agoMy Ford has a dedicated fuse for accessory packages that include the modem. Mine doesn't have any other options that share that fuse so it is functionally the telemetry fuse.
- samsullivan 21d agoTelemetry is usually a standalone module. Heres one off a 26 Hyundai Palisade -- Telematics (DCU) Part num: 96510P9100 firmware (OTA updatable) 01F.7.CAN.3.000.18.714.9 Its only job is to detect harsh acceleration and brake events. Probably being sold to your insurer.
- 21d ago
- jerlam 21d agoCarfax also can report estimated mileage, but it might have a different flag in the system that allows override. I've been handed a Carfax on my own car that has a reported mileage much greater than the actual mileage on the car, and the car has not been out of my possession.
- demibabs 21d agoYet if you overestimated the mileage you would’ve been none the wiser!
- sandworm101 21d agoWhere was the car serviced? Antennas or not, the dealer might just plug in and upload everything during service.
- baby_souffle 21d ago> Antennas or not, the dealer might just plug in and upload everything during service. You should have an empty glovebox as well when you take it in for service if you don't trust the shop. If you have registration / insurance paperwork, you're now on that shop's mailing list and can expect to get "$15 off your next oil change ..." flyers in the mail.
- wcunning 21d agoLots of automotive OEMs want that specific kind of information for generic reasons (how many of what model made it to what mileage under what circumstances) that are entirely reasonable. Lots of them also want that info for warranty related reasons (you've hit the mileage limit and we won't do anything for you anymore). But, my state of Michigan is starting a program to evaluate replacing registration fees with mileage charges to account for the additional wear and tear on the roads from EVs that don't pay gas taxes to fund road repairs. This would require some kind of verification of mileage, which we can't currently do during emissions testing, since it doesn't exist here. Legally required data retention is becoming a bigger and bigger issue, particularly in light of the driver monitoring requirement starting in MY27 vehicles by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act terms. That will presumably be integrated into any black box recording in a crash and probably subpoenaed in any dispute going forward. In other news, I think I'll be taking a trip to somewhere down south to find a nice, used 1999 F350 dually with a manual transmission, since they're going to cease to exist shortly...
- hansvm 21d agoI know you're not the culprit, but it's annoying to see crap like this (highly invasive tracking, ostensibly for slightly more efficient tax collection), when far cheaper, better efforts (like Rhode Island's attempt to add tolls for just semis -- 98-99% of their freeway maintenance costs) are killed before they have a chance to prove themselves.
- publlus_enigma 21d agoWeird -- usually VW likes to falsify its data, so I am surprised this data was so accurate. Every business likes data collection, until they don't.
- CommenterPerson 21d agoI have been thinking of upgrading from my 2003 Corolla to an electric (not Tesla). The Corolla hasn't had a single repair problem in 23 years! My main motivation to get a better car was, DD goes to a super prestigious college and it seems degrading to put their bumper sticker on a 23 year old car! But I guess I won't get another car. Serves you right mfr mfrs!
- kaladin-jasnah 21d agoSee my other comment, but the fuse pulling stuff still works on GM EVs and disables connectivity, but the telematics unit may still be collecting offline to batch upload.
- petre 21d agoThat's why it's better to replace it with a blown fuse instead, so that a helpful repair shop doesn't replace it when they see it missing.
- steelframe 21d agoThis is why I pulled the fuse on the Data Communications Module (DCM) on my car. The device that transmits the telemetry simply doesn't get any juice.
- citizenpaul 21d agoThe most horrible part this crime is I read somewhere That the amount the car companies get for spying on your locations is some pathetic paltry amount like $1-$5 one time. These car companies sell you out to insurance companies and such so they can collect data and use it AGAINST you. Ghouls everywhere now. Random Public data: Honda sold data on roughly 97,000 cars to Verisk for $25,920—amounting to about 26 cents per car. Hyundai sold data on about 1.7 million vehicles for roughly $1 million—about 61 cents per car
- Slow_Hand 21d agoThat doesn’t smell right. Why develop the telemetry and go to all of the trouble for such a paltry return? That probably wouldn’t even cover the legal consulation to cover their ass, much less go through the trouble of implementing and selling the telemetry. It would be cheaper to do nothing if that were true.
- dsl 20d agoTelemetry is used to push service, which is the big money maker for dealerships. Roadside assistance, maps subscriptions, driving data for market research. Selling it is pure icing on top.
- dguest 20d agoThere are less questionable things they can do with all that data: I'm sure it's really useful to figure out how electrical and mechanical faults correlate with driving conditions / weather / region etc. The result from this is just a better car in the next iteration. Then someone offers them $1 each for a fleet of 1M cars, who is going to turn down $1M for a few TB of data?
- Slow_Hand 20d agoTo your first point, fair enough. To your second point, surely they’ve considered the hit to their relationship with their customers before selling for $1/car. Surely the trust between them and their buyers is worth far, far more than that. Even assuming maximum greed, is every car manufacturer really so short-sighted as to break that trust for so small of a return?
- metaphor 20d ago> I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app before removing my account, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Android Auto, Apple CarPlay, OEM mobile app...Bluetooth?? Consider the business case of leased Comcast (as the largest ISP in the US) modems broadcasting open side-channel xfinitywifi SSIDs...essentially everywhere.
- KurSix 20d agoAt that point "opt out" starts to feel like a UI feature rather than an actual description of what the car is doing
- teekert 20d agoRight?! There is so much of this! In my country, for financial products, there needs to be a very clear label with some obligatory fields (we don't allow pharma commercials, but I think Americans know this as the details rattled off after a pharma commercial). It's time we get this for any tech. Companies just let you opt-out, but some weasel words in the terms and conditions let them still do 90% what they did before you hit the switch.
- surcap526 20d ago[dead]
- covai 20d agothat's so creepy. But how can the connect to the servers, unless the car connects to your phone or some other gateway?
- rockskon 20d agoSometimes there's a fuse you can pull to disable the telematics (or whatever the heck a given car company calls it).
- deleted 20d ago[deleted]
- pvaldes 20d ago> I can only assume the telemetry was still dialing home and selling to third parties Not necessarily. Obligatory roadworthiness test collects this data.