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Flights cancelled at UK airports due to ATC issue
- dtf 25d agoNATS - the same system that crashed in August 2023 [1] due to an id clash, causing 2000 flights to be cancelled and days of chaos. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37461695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37461695
- 8by3 25d agoI briefly thought you meant the issue was NATS - https://docs.nats.io/learn/core-nats https://docs.nats.io/learn/core-nats
- Betelbuddy 25d agoIts normally always DNS (Departures Now Stalled)
- reactordev 25d agoNot TCP (Takeoff Clearance Prohibited)
- ukraina768768 25d agoIt's RST (russian state threat).
- clickety_clack 25d agoIt only affected MACs (mediocre airtraffic controllers)
- tosti 25d agoThey were causing interruptuons with TTL (Taxiing, Takeoff and Landing).
- demibabs 25d agoLol is this page written by AI?
- librasteve 25d agoAI jokes would be funnier methinks
- doublerabbit 25d agoIncluding mine. I'm not angry because my flight was cancelled. It's a pain in the arse but what really infuriates me is the "We are terribly sorry" these PR releases give. I've been on hold for three hours with British Airlines and it's "we are sorry", no you're not. "We are truly sorry for the ongoing flight disruption" is what infuriates the situation; when words have no meaning behind the phase. Pixelated hold-music I am sure is designed to make you rage further.
- ktallett 25d agoDo you expect them to employ enough staff to answer passenger calls for this rare occasion? That is not good business.
- Daviey 25d agoMy wife is currently at Gatwick, supposed to have taken off 2 hours ago, but no update.... The frustrating thing is the complete lack of information. I cannot comprehend how nobody knows what the situation is. I mean, is aircraft on the tarmac yet? Has it left it's previous destination yet? etc. Worst part is, likely no compensation as it isn't the airlines "fault".
- dylan604 25d agoWhy the use of scare quotes? It's not their fault. The airline arranged for flight crew, had the plane available, yet something outside of their control is preventing them from doing the deed. It's no different to the airline if a sudden bit of weather came along preventing the flight from taking off.
- donalhunt 25d agoI think the frustration comes from airlines not being able to accurately predict what the impact of a delay will be for the schedule for the remainder of the day, following day. They always hope they'll be able to recover some of the schedule with fast turnarounds. On a recent trip (when I encountered issues on every leg — cancellations, delays, missed connections, you name it), it is clear that airlines are incentivised to not communicate delays until it is clear the delay can't be recovered. In one case, at the airline's hub, the airport displays were showing a 2 hour delay and their app showed on-time departure (to the point I had to go and ask which source to trust). Having been a frequent flyer in the past I was able to determine that the delay was likely (but airlines can swap in equipment at hubs and mitigate the delay). Once you do have a delay the ripples are complex to handle. You have some passengers that were meant to connect to other flights. You have some that won't travel at all die to the cancellation. You then have 100+ people who you somehow have to accommodate in the coming days when flight loads are hopefully already 90+%. To be fair to my airline, their app was actually great at offering me a rebooking option the following day when my flight was cancelled. Unfortunately, the option I selected resulted in a non-direct flight with a transfer time that was impossible in reality (shouldn't have been offered in my opinion). I was literally rebooked 5mins after they declared the flight cancelled, skipped the queues back in the departure area (I don't think the local service agents even knew about the app) and drove home to my family for an extra night.
- earth-tattoo 25d ago[flagged]
- illwrks 25d agoFor anyone stranded, read up on UK261/EU261 and your airlines application process to be reimbursed. As far as I’m aware it’s not likely to happen automatically, you need to initiate the process (and record audio/video just in case proof is needed)
- ktallett 25d agoYou won't get compensation for ATC issues, but you will be reimbursed.
- Daviey 25d agoDelays yes... But once an airline cancels the flight, they become liable.
- d1sxeyes 25d agoYeah but I don't think it's that legislation you'd rely on: you paid for a service they didn't deliver. Compensation yeah, only applies if the reason for the delay/cancellation was under the airline's control. Nats down is pretty clearly a reason to reject compensation claims.
- junofan 25d agoEh, I tried in 2017 with BA when their system went down and received nothing. There was magically a Black Lives Matter protest at Gatwick (or maybe LCY, can’t remember) on the same day, which isn’t covered apparently.
- petercooper 25d agoI believe the compensation part only kicks in if it’s the airline’s fault.
- illwrks 25d agoYou may be right. As a direct result of the NATS issue perhaps not, but any second order issues once that is resolve you might be within scope.
- foxwell_1959 25d agoGot me confused with that title, thinking what “100 seconds of flights” would look like.
- gilleain 25d agoAbout a minute and a half.
- contingencies 25d agoSorry wouldn't fit ;)
- ghk-adsf 25d ago[dead]
- johnnyApplePRNG 25d agoIn the middle of a highly geopolitically sensitive moment where there's been bombs at other European airports recently? Color me suspicious.
- heyitsmedotjayb 25d agoImmediately after UK announced sanctions on illegal settlements...
- tacheiordache 25d agoIsrael sabotagged Spain as well, I can’t believe how naive most people are in support of Israel
- heyitsmedotjayb 25d agoIts disgusting the way they weaponize migration and racism.
- somelamer567 25d agoThis would make ideal cover for a Russian hybrid sucker-punch. I've spotted Russian trolls in the comments on YouTube blaming Israel for their hybrid attacks in Germany these past few days. They have form, and they have been preparing the information environment for ongoing hybrid aggression against Europe. The key "tell" it's Putin's thugs is because if ANY act is petty, thuggish, dishonourable and implausibly deniable, Russian intelligence are involved. In any case, the perpetrators will be found and dealt with. The aggressors are dumb (otherwise they wouldn't be aggressors)... and slow learners. Ukraine can look forward to some additional aid in the coming weeks.
- heyitsmedotjayb 24d agoI think you're naive if you're blaming Russia
- dude250711 25d agoBetter for the planet though.
- dlcarrier 25d agoOcean liners use several times more fuel per passenger mile than airliners.
- dewey 25d agoThats a bit of an odd comparison as they are in pretty different categories and don’t really compete against each other.
- deleted 25d ago[deleted]
- dlcarrier 25d agoThey don't in this case, because there's plenty of other airlines offering competing service, but when disruptions do prevent air travel, for example with the eruption of Eyjafjallajökull, travelers cruising to their destination will burn far more fuel. Granted, the difference in emissions of either form of traveling are absolutely nothing compared to the emissions of Eyjafjallajökull itself.
- stockresearcher 25d agoThe speed of the ship makes a huge difference in fuel consumption. Cruise ships/ocean liners usually go as fast as practicable, which leads to terrible fuel efficiency. Reducing speed from 20 knots to 15 knots may cut fuel consumption in half or more. One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of comparisons you’ll see will have, for example, a 5-day journey by cruise ship compared with an airline flight covering the same distance. Usually measured not in fuel consumed but carbon emissions. Ok, but shouldn’t the more accurate comparison be a 5-day cruise compared to an airplane trip plus 5 days in a hotel?
- varispeed 25d agoIT sector in the UK is bargain basement. Most competent people left for countries where their talents are valued or retired.
- ifwinterco 25d agoIt's fine for fintech etc, but air traffic control software yes I imagine not so much. Likely either outsourced or done by people who are comically underpaid considering how important it is
- Cthulhu_ 25d agoIt's also huge amounts of code for very old standards
- IshKebab 25d agoYou know there was someone who tried to refactor whatever code it was that broke here and was told it was too risky.
- stouset 25d agoI’m way more often than not on the side of refactoring but there’s risks on both ends with a mission-critical service like this. Neither side is zero risk, the choice is about which option will result in fewer and less severe outages.
- IshKebab 25d agoSure, the problem is most people can only see the risks of changing code. They're completely blind to the risks of not changing it.
- matthew_morgan 25d ago[flagged]
- small_model 25d agoWonder if any of this code was outsourced to India 'cut costs'
- dv_dt 25d agoFollowing neoliberal economic strategy has optimized for profit maxing over basic quality of life, let alone competency of building and operating complex systems. While the US is #1 in the trend, the UK is following pretty closely
- maxrev17 25d agoUK is a cesspit now
- tialaramex 25d agoThat is specifically because the Tories privatised water. Historically, like most places, the vital-to-life water supply and corresponding sewage processing were owned by the public in England and Wales. People hated the idea of this being changed, but Tory doctrine says that absolutely everything should be owned by for-profit companies even though we know that can't work. So, first they forced the publicly owned companies to stop investing and then they privatised the water supply, wrote off all debt owed by the public institutions and handed the new private companies £1.5 billion because hey, if you believe in nonsense, why not? The result was universally dismal, these private companies "leak" sewage into previously clean waterways, avoid taxes, divert as much money as possible to their off-shore owners, and of course they insist they constantly need higher and higher charges from their captive customer audience, then "oops" the money is used to pay off wealthy investors and none of the urgently needed work gets done.
- librasteve 25d agoI hate how the UK sewage system has failed. I agree that a good share of the blame lies with the for profit asset stripping owners. But just blaming 1980s Thatcher privatisation lets the government off the hook. The regulators (Ofwat and the Environment Agency) have watched this happen from the sidelines and failed to apply the law. Every “non exceptional” spill is a criminal offence with potential jail term, including actions of corporate conspiracy. The are 10,000s river and sea spills per year. Where is the punitive action? Why are the perps walking free? This is the soft corruption of the lobby and revolving door appointments (head of a water company one year, boss of the EA the next). Sure the only way to fix it now is (uncompensated) nationalisation, but the regulators have failed to anpply the regulations and are as much to blame.
- talhaanwar 25d agohappen after every few years
- surgical_fire 25d agoThis affected flights going to the UK as well. Source: Me, stuck in an airport, having witnessed numerous flights destined to London canceled throughout the day.
- PowPow619 25d agoThis brings up the ol' ATC government ran vs privatization debate
- edoceo 25d agoThen the nonsense is quickly put back in its place.
- deleted 25d ago[deleted]
- Hard_Space 25d agoJust had to cancel my 10-year passport renewal appointment for tomorrow morning, since it's in London and I'm in the EU. Man, this was a *miserable* way to spend a day. The flight kept getting bumped, heading for certain cancellation (it came, about midnight, long after I had returned from the airport); GPT was incredibly helpful on how to redeem (most of) the shit-ton of money I had paid for a 4-hour passport renewal appointment, and what my rights and obligations were in this situation. In particular it pointed me to authority docs declaring that if a flight is 5+ hours late, you can refuse to fly, reclaim the money and exit the airport. So when the next update said that the flight had been bumped 9 hours, I had all I needed to secure that and went home. Two hours later, the app announced the flight was cancelled. Sometimes (really a lot) I want to kick GPT's/Claude's/Gemini's collective rear ends. And then there are times like these, when, with me in a funk, AI cuts straight through to the essential knowledge I need and lowers the temperature.
- AnimalMuppet 25d ago> In particular it pointed me to authority docs declaring that if a flight is 5+ hours late, you can refuse to fly, reclaim the money and exit the airport. What jurisdiction? EU? (I would love for that to be true in the US, but I bet it isn't...)
- ericmay 25d agoI just did a Google search[1] and here's what I found: - US airlines do not pay cash for delays - You’re entitled to a full refund for a significant delay if you choose not to travel - Full refunds are paid within 7 business days for cards (20 calendar days for other payment methods) - Paid extras (baggage, upgrades) are refundable if you didn’t receive them - Airline policy dictates reimbursement for meals, hotels, and other expenses after a delay "A refund for significant delays or changes to your flight: You are entitled to an automatic full cash refund (including taxes and fees) if your flight is "significantly changed" for any reason, and you turn down a rebooking offered by the airline. Airlines might push you to accept vouchers and travel credits, but you are entitled to a cash refund. If you do not want a voucher, just tell the airline you prefer to be refunded in cash." - Delays your departure or arrival by 3 hours for domestic flights and 6 hours for international ones, - Changes to your departure or arrival airports, - Increases the number of connections - Downgrades your class of service - Changes your flight to different airports or aircraft that are less accessible for persons with disabilities." [1] https://airadvisor.com/en-us/flight-delay-compensation https://airadvisor.com/en-us/flight-delay-compensation
- yehosef 25d ago"I told it not to deploy until it was fixed."
- gausswho 25d agoUh oh. For those of us with a connection through Heathrow morning of the 10th (in about 36 hours) what would you recommend?
- lores 25d agoThere's really very little you can do bar booking an alternative flight at great expense. If you're lucky and you know the delay in advance, at least you may have a chance to take the Elizabeth Line into town and go for a stroll. I'd count a fat hour to go from the terminal to, say, Paddington. It's a pretty area and there are excellent Persian restaurants around.
- tom1337 25d agoCurrently stuck at an airport in london. It's insane how little information the staff here has. Also mindboggling that in aviation, where everything has a backup or two there seems to be a single company with a single software that can take down an entire airspace which most like will create worldwide ripple for the next days.
- ifwinterco 25d agoIt’s an absolute clown show that it was down for 4 hours, but would you want to be flying in some of the busiest airspace in the world on a “backup” ATC system that isn’t normally used? Personally I would not
- tom1337 25d agoI mean one could do A/B weeks. Have two separate systems that do the same job managed by two different teams etc. and switch between the primary system every week. This way you can ensure both systems are stable.
- Hodgewocket 25d agoDon't browse HN after watching Slow horses...