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Please speak for yourself. Not everyone in Europe thinks US is bigger problem than China. For many China is far bigger geopolitical threat since they openly sup

by aivisol 20d ago

Please speak for yourself. Not everyone in Europe thinks US is bigger problem than China. For many China is far bigger geopolitical threat since they openly support Russia in its current war.

nonethewiser 20d ago
I have no idea how people can overlook this. I mean I have some idea. A sort of “enemy of my enemy is my friend” meets “leopards ate my face.”
atakan_gurkan 20d ago
Honestly, I had the impression that the current US regime also supports Russia in its current war. Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? As far as I remember, that was in a form almost like an ultimatum, too. China might be a bigger threat, but I find it hard to believe that this would be the reason.
- petcat 20d ago
  > Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? Ukraine is never going to retake the territory they've lost without European soldiers on the ground. Macron famously said that he would have to send troops to Odesa and yet 3 years later there are still no French troops in Ukraine. Meanwhile Putin has captured even more land and is now actively bombarding Kyiv. It is painfully obvious that Europe lacks the political will to do any kind of substantial intervention. The war is at a complete standstill and it will last for another horrible decade if no concessions are made. It's the unfortunate reality of the situation.
  - foldr 20d ago
    >The war is at a complete standstill and it will last for another horrible decade if no concessions are made. There is a slight hope that the current Russian regime will collapse before then and be replaced by one that doesn't want to continue the war. (Though, that said, it could equally well be replaced by a regime that's even more ultranationalist than the current one.) While Europe certainly does lack the political will to make a substantial intervention, it's not just a question of political will. There is the small matter of not starting the third world war to consider.
  - pjc50 20d ago
    Not being able to take the territory, having a ceasefire over the territory, and actually conceding the territory are three different things. The world is full of unceded occupied areas. Korea. Taiwan. Northern Cyprus. Palestine. Nagorno-Karabakh. Transnistria. Ukraine rightly has no interest in ceding land to achieve a temporary ceasefire to allow Russia to re-arm and then attack again. Meanwhile it is also important that we don't have two nuclear armed states (France and Russsia) officially at war.
    - wat10000 20d ago
      I'm not excited to have France and Russia in direct conflict, but having two nuclear states at war would not be anything new. There's been China/USSR, India/Pakistan, India/China, and if you want to consider wars that mostly exist on paper at this point, North Korea/USA.
  - dgroshev 20d ago
    Ukraine is retaking some of the territory right now. https://euobserver.com/236059/ukrainians-again-liberate-territory-near-lyman-details-of-the-secret-operation-revealed-ukraine-battlefield-update-day-1657/ https://euobserver.com/236059/ukrainians-again-liberate-terr...
- hdgvhicv 20d ago
  European governments still importing Russian fuel. Not that it matters much as fuel is mostly fungible, if Europe imported from elsewhere for a higher price they’d be the middle man.
- MentalM 20d ago
  > Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? I mean what are the alternatives? Ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some, but later, when several more millions of Ukrainian men would be grabbed by Ukrainian gestapo from the streets like rabid animals and killed? Because with current support from the EU (that is less then EU support for Greece during economic crisis), that is the only alternative.
Roark66 20d ago
As a European that lives 200km from the Russian border it seems the USA has been supporting Russia in its current war a lot more than China. Consider these points: - US withdrawing it's "Intel support" just as Russia started a major offensive last year. - US starting the war on Iran clearly to help their pal Putin on oil prices, now they try to use Ukraine as a scapegoat for "attacking Russian oil export infrastructure" - Another "side effect" of war in Iran. No more patriots or modern weapons for any country that ordered them from the USA in recent years and was expecting deliveries just about now. - US committing actual act of war (threatening force has been considered an act of war for centuries) against the EU by talking about invading Greenland (most certainly if Russia attacked Estonia US would try their luck with Greenland on same day, does it remind you anything from history?) - US essentially waging an economic war on the rest of NATO. - US companies with full support of the state trying to deny computing hardware to the rest of the world in hope they manage to monopolise compute capability using AI as cover (yes China is a real ally in this). And much more. Yes, the US is a much higher threat to the EU than China now.
- foldr 20d ago
  US motives are currently inscrutable, but the US is sending military hardware to Ukraine, whereas China is sending dual-use hardware to Russia. You can see an itemised list of US contributions at the following link. It's not nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war#mwLBs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...
  - bigyabai 20d ago
    Overall I agree with you, but I'd be wary of taking these numbers at face value. For instance, $20b of America's $65b aid contribution comes from a loan that's repaid by selling off sanctioned Russian assets. Many of the weapon systems sent over are decades old, but valued at the price the US paid for it in the 1980s/1990s. Side-by-side with, for example, itemized Israeli aid, it's pretty clear which conflict the US is putting on the back-burner.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 20d ago
pjc50 20d ago
It does actually matter that the US president is continually deriding Europe and making weird threats in English language social media where we can see it, while the Chinese leadership is politely selling us discounted cars. (When is the first war going to be started purely downstream of social media beef? Was it arguably the Iran war?)
- FuriouslyAdrift 20d ago
  That's like complaining that the police are mean while your heroin dealer is so nice to you.
  - coldbrewed 20d ago
    In this metaphor the police are corrupt, running a protection racket, and might get drunk and shoot you while your dealer is in the mafia. The mafia link might be a problem at some point but the person with the badge and the gun is a problem right now.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 20d ago
      [flagged]
  - pjc50 20d ago
    Well, yes, that's a huge structural problem in many American cities. When people perceive the police as more of a threat than crime, the situation deteriorates. Somehow "make the police trustworthy" isn't considered an option.
OptionX 20d ago
Between China and the US which have laid claim to Greenland and have in no uncertain terms said they would use military force to acquire it?
- preisschild 20d ago
  Which one provides weapons to Russia, a nation in an active war against Europe? And AFAIK the US has not even claimed Greenland.
GMoromisato 20d ago
My hope as an American is that China's growing power will bring Europe and the US closer together. It's true that MAGA craziness has pushed Europe aways from us. But, ironically, Europe increasing defense spending and standing up an independent military machine will actually make some MAGA people like Europe more. But either way, the best thing for both the US and Europe is to figure out a way to reconcile. The alternative is a Europe-China alliance (which would be bad for Europe) or a US-China alliance (which would be horrific for Europe).
soperj 20d ago
Trump supports Russia, and their policies (war in Iran, opening up oil purchases again) support it even more.
mitxela 20d ago
The US also openly supports Russia in its current war, what's the difference?
- aivisol 19d ago
  What do you mean by that? Are they selling any parts and components for military use? Are they buying oil and gas to support their war effort.
  - mitxela 19d ago
    All of the above
arximboldi 18d ago
I live in Europe and me and most of my friends (which of course are not representative of the whole population) consider the US a larger threat than China. On the other hand the US is a pretty aggressive country that has been supporting coup-de-etats and starting wars for more than a century. The current president has an open expansionist vision that includes European territories (Greenland), has started a war that is fucking up the world economy (Iran) and could start WWII, is supporting a genocide in Gaza, has an ambivalent position about Ukraine (and all the post-soviet foreign policy of the US over two decades have probably contributed to this situation), completely disregards current most existential threat to humanity (climate change), openly supports neo-fascist groups in Europe like the AfD, Vox, etc. Meanwhile China exports cheap stuff, is leading the world efforts developing green technologies, is leading the efforts democratizing AI technologies, and doesn't bully people around with their army. Sure the US, with its bipartisan system, is barely more democratic than China, but should also judge countries by their actions not just their deliberation process. If you "rationally" decide to kill me, I'd rather you had been told by "god" not to kill me, even if I don't believe in god and generally think that non-theistic morality is better and more democratic.

by aivisol 20d ago

Please speak for yourself. Not everyone in Europe thinks US is bigger problem than China. For many China is far bigger geopolitical threat since they openly support Russia in its current war.

nonethewiser 20d ago

I have no idea how people can overlook this. I mean I have some idea. A sort of “enemy of my enemy is my friend” meets “leopards ate my face.”

atakan_gurkan 20d ago

Honestly, I had the impression that the current US regime also supports Russia in its current war. Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? As far as I remember, that was in a form almost like an ultimatum, too. China might be a bigger threat, but I find it hard to believe that this would be the reason.

petcat 20d ago
> Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? Ukraine is never going to retake the territory they've lost without European soldiers on the ground. Macron famously said that he would have to send troops to Odesa and yet 3 years later there are still no French troops in Ukraine. Meanwhile Putin has captured even more land and is now actively bombarding Kyiv. It is painfully obvious that Europe lacks the political will to do any kind of substantial intervention. The war is at a complete standstill and it will last for another horrible decade if no concessions are made. It's the unfortunate reality of the situation.
- foldr 20d ago
  >The war is at a complete standstill and it will last for another horrible decade if no concessions are made. There is a slight hope that the current Russian regime will collapse before then and be replaced by one that doesn't want to continue the war. (Though, that said, it could equally well be replaced by a regime that's even more ultranationalist than the current one.) While Europe certainly does lack the political will to make a substantial intervention, it's not just a question of political will. There is the small matter of not starting the third world war to consider.
- pjc50 20d ago
  Not being able to take the territory, having a ceasefire over the territory, and actually conceding the territory are three different things. The world is full of unceded occupied areas. Korea. Taiwan. Northern Cyprus. Palestine. Nagorno-Karabakh. Transnistria. Ukraine rightly has no interest in ceding land to achieve a temporary ceasefire to allow Russia to re-arm and then attack again. Meanwhile it is also important that we don't have two nuclear armed states (France and Russsia) officially at war.
  - wat10000 20d ago
    I'm not excited to have France and Russia in direct conflict, but having two nuclear states at war would not be anything new. There's been China/USSR, India/Pakistan, India/China, and if you want to consider wars that mostly exist on paper at this point, North Korea/USA.
- dgroshev 20d ago
  Ukraine is retaking some of the territory right now. https://euobserver.com/236059/ukrainians-again-liberate-territory-near-lyman-details-of-the-secret-operation-revealed-ukraine-battlefield-update-day-1657/ https://euobserver.com/236059/ukrainians-again-liberate-terr...
hdgvhicv 20d ago
European governments still importing Russian fuel. Not that it matters much as fuel is mostly fungible, if Europe imported from elsewhere for a higher price they’d be the middle man.
MentalM 20d ago
> Did they not ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some? I mean what are the alternatives? Ask Ukraine to give the already occupied land and then some, but later, when several more millions of Ukrainian men would be grabbed by Ukrainian gestapo from the streets like rabid animals and killed? Because with current support from the EU (that is less then EU support for Greece during economic crisis), that is the only alternative.

Roark66 20d ago

As a European that lives 200km from the Russian border it seems the USA has been supporting Russia in its current war a lot more than China. Consider these points: - US withdrawing it's "Intel support" just as Russia started a major offensive last year. - US starting the war on Iran clearly to help their pal Putin on oil prices, now they try to use Ukraine as a scapegoat for "attacking Russian oil export infrastructure" - Another "side effect" of war in Iran. No more patriots or modern weapons for any country that ordered them from the USA in recent years and was expecting deliveries just about now. - US committing actual act of war (threatening force has been considered an act of war for centuries) against the EU by talking about invading Greenland (most certainly if Russia attacked Estonia US would try their luck with Greenland on same day, does it remind you anything from history?) - US essentially waging an economic war on the rest of NATO. - US companies with full support of the state trying to deny computing hardware to the rest of the world in hope they manage to monopolise compute capability using AI as cover (yes China is a real ally in this). And much more. Yes, the US is a much higher threat to the EU than China now.

foldr 20d ago
US motives are currently inscrutable, but the US is sending military hardware to Ukraine, whereas China is sending dual-use hardware to Russia. You can see an itemised list of US contributions at the following link. It's not nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war#mwLBs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...
- bigyabai 20d ago
  Overall I agree with you, but I'd be wary of taking these numbers at face value. For instance, $20b of America's $65b aid contribution comes from a loan that's repaid by selling off sanctioned Russian assets. Many of the weapon systems sent over are decades old, but valued at the price the US paid for it in the 1980s/1990s. Side-by-side with, for example, itemized Israeli aid, it's pretty clear which conflict the US is putting on the back-burner.
0xDEAFBEAD 20d ago

pjc50 20d ago

It does actually matter that the US president is continually deriding Europe and making weird threats in English language social media where we can see it, while the Chinese leadership is politely selling us discounted cars. (When is the first war going to be started purely downstream of social media beef? Was it arguably the Iran war?)

FuriouslyAdrift 20d ago
That's like complaining that the police are mean while your heroin dealer is so nice to you.
- coldbrewed 20d ago
  In this metaphor the police are corrupt, running a protection racket, and might get drunk and shoot you while your dealer is in the mafia. The mafia link might be a problem at some point but the person with the badge and the gun is a problem right now.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 20d ago
    [flagged]
- pjc50 20d ago
  Well, yes, that's a huge structural problem in many American cities. When people perceive the police as more of a threat than crime, the situation deteriorates. Somehow "make the police trustworthy" isn't considered an option.

OptionX 20d ago

Between China and the US which have laid claim to Greenland and have in no uncertain terms said they would use military force to acquire it?

preisschild 20d ago
Which one provides weapons to Russia, a nation in an active war against Europe? And AFAIK the US has not even claimed Greenland.

GMoromisato 20d ago

My hope as an American is that China's growing power will bring Europe and the US closer together. It's true that MAGA craziness has pushed Europe aways from us. But, ironically, Europe increasing defense spending and standing up an independent military machine will actually make some MAGA people like Europe more. But either way, the best thing for both the US and Europe is to figure out a way to reconcile. The alternative is a Europe-China alliance (which would be bad for Europe) or a US-China alliance (which would be horrific for Europe).

soperj 20d ago

Trump supports Russia, and their policies (war in Iran, opening up oil purchases again) support it even more.

mitxela 20d ago

The US also openly supports Russia in its current war, what's the difference?

aivisol 19d ago
What do you mean by that? Are they selling any parts and components for military use? Are they buying oil and gas to support their war effort.
- mitxela 19d ago
  All of the above

arximboldi 18d ago

I live in Europe and me and most of my friends (which of course are not representative of the whole population) consider the US a larger threat than China. On the other hand the US is a pretty aggressive country that has been supporting coup-de-etats and starting wars for more than a century. The current president has an open expansionist vision that includes European territories (Greenland), has started a war that is fucking up the world economy (Iran) and could start WWII, is supporting a genocide in Gaza, has an ambivalent position about Ukraine (and all the post-soviet foreign policy of the US over two decades have probably contributed to this situation), completely disregards current most existential threat to humanity (climate change), openly supports neo-fascist groups in Europe like the AfD, Vox, etc. Meanwhile China exports cheap stuff, is leading the world efforts developing green technologies, is leading the efforts democratizing AI technologies, and doesn't bully people around with their army. Sure the US, with its bipartisan system, is barely more democratic than China, but should also judge countries by their actions not just their deliberation process. If you "rationally" decide to kill me, I'd rather you had been told by "god" not to kill me, even if I don't believe in god and generally think that non-theistic morality is better and more democratic.