3 ms·

The real risk to MS here is when people take the plunge and see how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows etc! W

The real risk to MS here is when people take the plunge and see how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows etc! Will they want to buy their next laptop at home with MSFT installed? Plus, if countries moving off Microsoft put a fraction of the savings into libre office product development, it might get an even more lopsided comparison!

pjmlp 19d ago
Yes, because when they go to Media Market and FNAC they will only have macOS and Windows laptops to chose from. Having Tuxedo, System76 and co is great, but what most people care about is what there are in regular consumer shops. Linux adoption among consumer hardware has only been a success where it is invisible to the user, like the Linux kernel on Android or WebOS, firmware on DVD/BlueRay players,...
- LtWorf 19d ago
  Stores are dead to anyone who is under 35 years of age.
  - embedding-shape 19d ago
    You might want to contact Media Markt, FNAC, Corte Ingles and all the other stores to tell them apparently they have 0 customers yet they pay for rent, salaries and everything else even though no one goes there anymore.
    - repelsteeltje 19d ago
      Add CoolBlue (Netherlands) to that list. Initially a post order-only for consumer electronics, but added bricks & mortar stores because many customers (of all ages, btw) prefer IRL service, viewing and touching actual hardware.
      - guenthert 19d ago
        > prefer IRL service, viewing and touching actual hardware. That did Fry's in, didn't it? People coming in viewing, touching hardware in store and then buy it on-line (elsewhere) so that they could save 2.5%. Or worse, buying it in store and returning it two weeks later when they found a better deal or didn't need it anymore.
        embedding-shape 19d ago
        > Or worse, buying it in store and returning it two weeks later when they found a better deal or didn't need it anymore. Here a lot of places has a sort of price guarantee that I guess is supposed to work against this. Basically, if I know Media Markt sells something I want, but the very same thing is available for cheaper in other (big) store, I'll show them their competitors pricing and they'll lower their price to match it. Assuming by the fact that the physical stores still exists, don't seem to be going anywhere soon, and these companies tend to get rid of stuff that doesn't make them profit anymore, I think it's safe to assume they at least are net positive on having the physical stores.
  - cpursley 19d ago
    Tell that to Apple, glance inside next time you pass by an Apple Store.
    - LtWorf 19d ago
      Apple stores also do repairs, so I'm not sure what's the point of this comparison.
      - pjmlp 19d ago
        Which ones? Usually they send the device to some center like everyone else.
  - pjmlp 19d ago
    Not really, otherwise I wouldn't bump into them all over the place around here.
- rich_sasha 19d ago
  The average person walking into these shops has never heard of Linux. If, as I would hope, they find out about it and like it, they’ll ask. Then either the shops assortment will be improved, or as sibling comment says, they’ll look online.
  - pjmlp 19d ago
    Which is why "The Year of Desktop Linux" will keep being a meme (30 years to 4%), unless we are talking about running Linux Desktops from within WSL and Virtualisation Framework, or for the oldies, VMWare Workstation and Virtual Box. "Linus Torvalds Explains The Reason Linux Lost The Desktop" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQMujWFUDSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQMujWFUDSg
    - TheOtherHobbes 19d ago
      M$FT revenue is currently around $300bn a year, with a 40% profit margin. Canonical's revenue is less than $300m. Even if Canonical wanted to create a perfect version of Ubuntu with driver support for almost everything and as many desktop bugs removed as possible, they still can't afford to do it. A credible Linux-on-the-desktop needs a global or multinational consumer-oriented foundation that can herd all the cats and turn desktop Linux into a professionally-managed project with proper beta testing and some interest in user experience. That's a 180 from Linux culture, so it's unlikely to ever happen. The Linux Foundation is not that Linux foundation, because it's not remotely desktop or consumer-oriented. freedesktop.org is a nice side project but doesn't have anything like the budget or the profile or resources required. That is literally the only way to make a desktop version that can compete with Windows and OS X. There's an obvious opportunity for someone to do this for governments now - a standard gov-optimised distro with enhanced security and access control and a collection of boring productivity software.
delta_p_delta_x 19d ago
> how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows As someone who regularly uses both, and even in spite of the ad avalanche that (a bog-standard home install of) Windows has become: [X] to doubt. I regularly have issues on my corporate Linux laptop that I suspect wouldn't ever happen on Windows. Fleet management is easiest on Windows, with Active Directory, Group Policy, images, etc. Maybe package managers make software management easier on Linux, but fleet sysadmin is basically built-in on Windows. Linux is superb for servers—I use Proxmox VE as the hypervisor on my homelab—but it still has a rather long way to go as a sharp-edge-free desktop OS, regardless of whether it is for home or corporate use.
- LtWorf 19d ago
  I think the issues you're having on your "corporate linux laptop" are due to the "corporate" part. I'm also having a lot of issues on my corporate linux laptop (such as dbus crashing) that just do not happen normally. They are due to all the proprietary ~~spyware~~ security software they install, that hook pretty deep into the system and isn't as well tested.
- rich_sasha 19d ago
  I suppose it depends. I’ve seen MSFT platforms supported very well and very poorly - with all the things you mention present but permanently broken. I’ve only seen Linux well supported, though ofc that could well be the luck of my draw. But even when the platform is well supported, you’re left with the user experience.
Moldoteck 19d ago
Tbh the only reason I can't put an ubuntu for my parents/grandparents is Microsoft office. Libre is generally ok, but they deal with lots of documents from different ppl/orgs that just need to have similar rendering. Windows is so bloated it's insane
- meekins 19d ago
  The rendering won't be 1:1 but installing the most common MS fonts already does a lot
  - repelsteeltje 19d ago
    That's the same issue I hear Apple users complain about: how it's such a drag to copy paste screenshots from keynote into powerpoint, every time they can't present from their own laptop.
  - Moldoteck 19d ago
    The thing is, it needs to be 1:1. This will be fixed only by a govt push to do full replacement for all doc sharing at all levels, especially schools. But since in this country office is mostly pirated anyway, it's not such a big push
    - tonyedgecombe 19d ago
      >The thing is, it needs to be 1:1. I'm not sure about that outside of Excel and even then only for a small proportion of users.
      - Moldoteck 19d ago
        Try saying that to the govt when they send some documents to your university that must be filled by several ppl and suddenly content isn't alligned anymore as it originally was.
- wongarsu 19d ago
  Even Microsoft can't perfectly replicate MS Office rendering. Despite access to the source code. Lots of stuff renders slightly broken in the web version, especially once headers and footers are involved As an individual that makes MS Office hard to replace in the workplace. But maybe entire agencies switching over will have enough weight that they can force everyone else to adapt to them
INTPenis 19d ago
Lifelong Linux/Unix user here, I love the widespread adoption of Linux. But comments like this one makes me think people don't realize what a MacGyvere'd together hack job a Linux distro truly is. The idea on paper is that a company like Microsoft can offer a more consistent and stable experience, but apparently they're even failing at that these days. But to look at a Linux distro as an alternative to consistency and stability is pretty funny to me. The truth is that any org that chooses to migrate from Microsoft to Open source will face completely new challenges. And the end result will be +-0, if they're lucky.
- andylynch 19d ago
  Windows is too at this point; it’s just a little less obvious.
- kachnuv_ocasek 19d ago
  I don't think you appreciate what a hack job Windows really is. It's just that it's quite visible in the Linux world, but more obscured in the case of proprietary software.
  - NetMageSCW 19d ago
    These days it is really visible in Windows 11 as well.
  - dietr1ch 18d ago
    You mean that the menues that look from 2-5 Windows versions back are hacky and not an Hommage to their older releases?
- herbst 19d ago
  This was an issue, but at this point Microsoft is placing ads everywhere, negative news on my desktop, and update nags with changing buttons in every other start. Nothing about it is smooth or consistent anymore. Seriously I've learned about the death of hundreds of people when I switched on my music PC (the only reason I have one windows machine is music software) - I haven't asked for this, and I removed news before, they just patched it back in
teiferer 19d ago
These things swing back and forth. Look up LiMux. Things don't just go in one direction.
IslandRebel 19d ago
> The real risk to MS here is when people take the plunge and see how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows etc! Will they want to buy their next laptop at home with MSFT installed? Firstly, I would wager a large amount of personal computing is now done on a phone/tablet. None of my relatives have laptops for personal use. They may have work laptop (which will be running Windows). I this often with a lot of Linux users where they are still fighting the last war which has long been lost. Secondly, Every single Linux/DE distro has a bunch of issues. Doesn't matter what it is. There are loads of odd bugs (doesn't matter the DE or Distro) that are present, that simply don't exist on Windows. These are things around device and display handling e.g. - My bluetooth mouse needs paired again every kernel update. My solution to this will be to buy another mouse probably. - One of my USB wireless headsets doesn't work with Pipewire. The solution to this was to buy another one. - Games while it is great that I could finally ditch Windows for playing games. You have to be using the right DE. This is because Mutter (which is Gnome's Window Manager), completely fucks the frame-pacing in some games. KDE that doesn't happen. This is why Gaming distros exist because all these stupid problems with Gaming are pre-fixed by the distro. - When I changed from Gnome to KDE, all my browser sessions tabs, logins etc were gone because KDE Keyrings and Gnome Keyrings for some reason don't use the same underlying store. All of these issues need either new hardware / obscure settings to be enabled via the terminal to fix, or require two large projects to actually talk to each other. Thirdly, it isn't just the OS. For every application on the computer you have to either see if the program is supported on Linux and/or there is an alternative, or they may have a bunch of stuff tied into the Microsoft Ecosystem. Sometimes there isn't really an alternative. Finally, Unlike big corporations you get bizarre things happening in Linux-distro land almost weekly due to some personal drama. This is seldom reported on because honestly this happens in smaller enthusiast projects normally, but they have a way of trickling up into the wider ecosystem.
- keyringlight 19d ago
  I think any movement is gradual and for it to be significant it would need to be sustained, people love dramatic sudden changes but it's going up against decades of momentum. As you mentioned mobiles, that took a long time to transition and that was with a starting point where a large proportion already had a non-smart phone along with the decisions they made about replacing aging devices. The point about "fighting the last war" is interesting as there's a lot of uncertainty right now about how personal computing with a PC is going to look in the next few years. The angle I've been wondering about with the pressures on consumer hardware pricing/availability is if manufacturers can use it as an opportunity to establish new standards if/when it's easier to buy new again (eg, a major ATX revision/rethink) or if they keep following the same template. Over on the software side, what could a non-stagnant OS offer that would be attractive to consumers, what can consumer/desktop linux do that isn't following windows/macos, what would create a need for a mirror image of WINE as linux is leading with new features first?
surgical_fire 19d ago
This is not about Linux. They are replacing Office365.
philipallstar 19d ago
I wouldn't assume that moving off Microsoft will save money, or not for a long time. All staff will need a lot of retraining. Or: if Microsoft are very smart they'll have Office for Linux and a GPO connector to manage Linux devices (and divert logins via Entra) in the wings, so much less retraining will be required.
- palata 19d ago
  I am not so convinced: most staff do relatively basic stuff with MS365, right? People don't like to even try something else, but when they have no choice, it doesn't take them 5 years to understand how to select text in one of the Microsoft Word competitors and click "bold".
  - philipallstar 19d ago
    No, they're frequently using things like track changes in Word docs and even small variants to that (why not use Confluence with comments instead so we stop emailing docs around?) encounter a lot of tissue rejection. And marketing want their template with the latest branding pushed to everyone's Word as a default template. And it should integrate nicely with Sharepoint. And and and.
bulbar 19d ago
No, the risk is that Microsoft loses its de facto monopoly on Enterprise ecosystems. It's pretty hard to switch to Linux, some have tried, bigger entities never stuck to it. So far. Now with the political landscape shifting, the priority to achieve that has gone much higher.
SpacePortKnight 19d ago
It's far easier to disable annoyance of windows than deal with linux for most people and especially for large organisations.
- illiac786 19d ago
  Large organisation, hmmmkay, but for private persons, I disagree. Windows 11 is annoying as hell and removing the annoyances, while possible, is not easy for anyone not tech savvy.

pjmlp 19d ago

Yes, because when they go to Media Market and FNAC they will only have macOS and Windows laptops to chose from. Having Tuxedo, System76 and co is great, but what most people care about is what there are in regular consumer shops. Linux adoption among consumer hardware has only been a success where it is invisible to the user, like the Linux kernel on Android or WebOS, firmware on DVD/BlueRay players,...

LtWorf 19d ago
Stores are dead to anyone who is under 35 years of age.
- embedding-shape 19d ago
  You might want to contact Media Markt, FNAC, Corte Ingles and all the other stores to tell them apparently they have 0 customers yet they pay for rent, salaries and everything else even though no one goes there anymore.
  - repelsteeltje 19d ago
    Add CoolBlue (Netherlands) to that list. Initially a post order-only for consumer electronics, but added bricks & mortar stores because many customers (of all ages, btw) prefer IRL service, viewing and touching actual hardware.
    - guenthert 19d ago
      > prefer IRL service, viewing and touching actual hardware. That did Fry's in, didn't it? People coming in viewing, touching hardware in store and then buy it on-line (elsewhere) so that they could save 2.5%. Or worse, buying it in store and returning it two weeks later when they found a better deal or didn't need it anymore.
      - embedding-shape 19d ago
        > Or worse, buying it in store and returning it two weeks later when they found a better deal or didn't need it anymore. Here a lot of places has a sort of price guarantee that I guess is supposed to work against this. Basically, if I know Media Markt sells something I want, but the very same thing is available for cheaper in other (big) store, I'll show them their competitors pricing and they'll lower their price to match it. Assuming by the fact that the physical stores still exists, don't seem to be going anywhere soon, and these companies tend to get rid of stuff that doesn't make them profit anymore, I think it's safe to assume they at least are net positive on having the physical stores.
- cpursley 19d ago
  Tell that to Apple, glance inside next time you pass by an Apple Store.
  - LtWorf 19d ago
    Apple stores also do repairs, so I'm not sure what's the point of this comparison.
    - pjmlp 19d ago
      Which ones? Usually they send the device to some center like everyone else.
- pjmlp 19d ago
  Not really, otherwise I wouldn't bump into them all over the place around here.
rich_sasha 19d ago
The average person walking into these shops has never heard of Linux. If, as I would hope, they find out about it and like it, they’ll ask. Then either the shops assortment will be improved, or as sibling comment says, they’ll look online.
- pjmlp 19d ago
  Which is why "The Year of Desktop Linux" will keep being a meme (30 years to 4%), unless we are talking about running Linux Desktops from within WSL and Virtualisation Framework, or for the oldies, VMWare Workstation and Virtual Box. "Linus Torvalds Explains The Reason Linux Lost The Desktop" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQMujWFUDSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQMujWFUDSg
  - TheOtherHobbes 19d ago
    M$FT revenue is currently around $300bn a year, with a 40% profit margin. Canonical's revenue is less than $300m. Even if Canonical wanted to create a perfect version of Ubuntu with driver support for almost everything and as many desktop bugs removed as possible, they still can't afford to do it. A credible Linux-on-the-desktop needs a global or multinational consumer-oriented foundation that can herd all the cats and turn desktop Linux into a professionally-managed project with proper beta testing and some interest in user experience. That's a 180 from Linux culture, so it's unlikely to ever happen. The Linux Foundation is not that Linux foundation, because it's not remotely desktop or consumer-oriented. freedesktop.org is a nice side project but doesn't have anything like the budget or the profile or resources required. That is literally the only way to make a desktop version that can compete with Windows and OS X. There's an obvious opportunity for someone to do this for governments now - a standard gov-optimised distro with enhanced security and access control and a collection of boring productivity software.

delta_p_delta_x 19d ago

> how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows As someone who regularly uses both, and even in spite of the ad avalanche that (a bog-standard home install of) Windows has become: [X] to doubt. I regularly have issues on my corporate Linux laptop that I suspect wouldn't ever happen on Windows. Fleet management is easiest on Windows, with Active Directory, Group Policy, images, etc. Maybe package managers make software management easier on Linux, but fleet sysadmin is basically built-in on Windows. Linux is superb for servers—I use Proxmox VE as the hypervisor on my homelab—but it still has a rather long way to go as a sharp-edge-free desktop OS, regardless of whether it is for home or corporate use.

LtWorf 19d ago
I think the issues you're having on your "corporate linux laptop" are due to the "corporate" part. I'm also having a lot of issues on my corporate linux laptop (such as dbus crashing) that just do not happen normally. They are due to all the proprietary ~~spyware~~ security software they install, that hook pretty deep into the system and isn't as well tested.
rich_sasha 19d ago
I suppose it depends. I’ve seen MSFT platforms supported very well and very poorly - with all the things you mention present but permanently broken. I’ve only seen Linux well supported, though ofc that could well be the luck of my draw. But even when the platform is well supported, you’re left with the user experience.

Moldoteck 19d ago

Tbh the only reason I can't put an ubuntu for my parents/grandparents is Microsoft office. Libre is generally ok, but they deal with lots of documents from different ppl/orgs that just need to have similar rendering. Windows is so bloated it's insane

meekins 19d ago
The rendering won't be 1:1 but installing the most common MS fonts already does a lot
- repelsteeltje 19d ago
  That's the same issue I hear Apple users complain about: how it's such a drag to copy paste screenshots from keynote into powerpoint, every time they can't present from their own laptop.
- Moldoteck 19d ago
  The thing is, it needs to be 1:1. This will be fixed only by a govt push to do full replacement for all doc sharing at all levels, especially schools. But since in this country office is mostly pirated anyway, it's not such a big push
  - tonyedgecombe 19d ago
    >The thing is, it needs to be 1:1. I'm not sure about that outside of Excel and even then only for a small proportion of users.
    - Moldoteck 19d ago
      Try saying that to the govt when they send some documents to your university that must be filled by several ppl and suddenly content isn't alligned anymore as it originally was.
wongarsu 19d ago
Even Microsoft can't perfectly replicate MS Office rendering. Despite access to the source code. Lots of stuff renders slightly broken in the web version, especially once headers and footers are involved As an individual that makes MS Office hard to replace in the workplace. But maybe entire agencies switching over will have enough weight that they can force everyone else to adapt to them

INTPenis 19d ago

Lifelong Linux/Unix user here, I love the widespread adoption of Linux. But comments like this one makes me think people don't realize what a MacGyvere'd together hack job a Linux distro truly is. The idea on paper is that a company like Microsoft can offer a more consistent and stable experience, but apparently they're even failing at that these days. But to look at a Linux distro as an alternative to consistency and stability is pretty funny to me. The truth is that any org that chooses to migrate from Microsoft to Open source will face completely new challenges. And the end result will be +-0, if they're lucky.

andylynch 19d ago
Windows is too at this point; it’s just a little less obvious.
kachnuv_ocasek 19d ago
I don't think you appreciate what a hack job Windows really is. It's just that it's quite visible in the Linux world, but more obscured in the case of proprietary software.
- NetMageSCW 19d ago
  These days it is really visible in Windows 11 as well.
- dietr1ch 18d ago
  You mean that the menues that look from 2-5 Windows versions back are hacky and not an Hommage to their older releases?
herbst 19d ago
This was an issue, but at this point Microsoft is placing ads everywhere, negative news on my desktop, and update nags with changing buttons in every other start. Nothing about it is smooth or consistent anymore. Seriously I've learned about the death of hundreds of people when I switched on my music PC (the only reason I have one windows machine is music software) - I haven't asked for this, and I removed news before, they just patched it back in

teiferer 19d ago

These things swing back and forth. Look up LiMux. Things don't just go in one direction.

IslandRebel 19d ago

> The real risk to MS here is when people take the plunge and see how much nicer a (well supported, well put together) Linux distro is, compared to Windows etc! Will they want to buy their next laptop at home with MSFT installed? Firstly, I would wager a large amount of personal computing is now done on a phone/tablet. None of my relatives have laptops for personal use. They may have work laptop (which will be running Windows). I this often with a lot of Linux users where they are still fighting the last war which has long been lost. Secondly, Every single Linux/DE distro has a bunch of issues. Doesn't matter what it is. There are loads of odd bugs (doesn't matter the DE or Distro) that are present, that simply don't exist on Windows. These are things around device and display handling e.g. - My bluetooth mouse needs paired again every kernel update. My solution to this will be to buy another mouse probably. - One of my USB wireless headsets doesn't work with Pipewire. The solution to this was to buy another one. - Games while it is great that I could finally ditch Windows for playing games. You have to be using the right DE. This is because Mutter (which is Gnome's Window Manager), completely fucks the frame-pacing in some games. KDE that doesn't happen. This is why Gaming distros exist because all these stupid problems with Gaming are pre-fixed by the distro. - When I changed from Gnome to KDE, all my browser sessions tabs, logins etc were gone because KDE Keyrings and Gnome Keyrings for some reason don't use the same underlying store. All of these issues need either new hardware / obscure settings to be enabled via the terminal to fix, or require two large projects to actually talk to each other. Thirdly, it isn't just the OS. For every application on the computer you have to either see if the program is supported on Linux and/or there is an alternative, or they may have a bunch of stuff tied into the Microsoft Ecosystem. Sometimes there isn't really an alternative. Finally, Unlike big corporations you get bizarre things happening in Linux-distro land almost weekly due to some personal drama. This is seldom reported on because honestly this happens in smaller enthusiast projects normally, but they have a way of trickling up into the wider ecosystem.

keyringlight 19d ago
I think any movement is gradual and for it to be significant it would need to be sustained, people love dramatic sudden changes but it's going up against decades of momentum. As you mentioned mobiles, that took a long time to transition and that was with a starting point where a large proportion already had a non-smart phone along with the decisions they made about replacing aging devices. The point about "fighting the last war" is interesting as there's a lot of uncertainty right now about how personal computing with a PC is going to look in the next few years. The angle I've been wondering about with the pressures on consumer hardware pricing/availability is if manufacturers can use it as an opportunity to establish new standards if/when it's easier to buy new again (eg, a major ATX revision/rethink) or if they keep following the same template. Over on the software side, what could a non-stagnant OS offer that would be attractive to consumers, what can consumer/desktop linux do that isn't following windows/macos, what would create a need for a mirror image of WINE as linux is leading with new features first?

surgical_fire 19d ago

This is not about Linux. They are replacing Office365.

philipallstar 19d ago

I wouldn't assume that moving off Microsoft will save money, or not for a long time. All staff will need a lot of retraining. Or: if Microsoft are very smart they'll have Office for Linux and a GPO connector to manage Linux devices (and divert logins via Entra) in the wings, so much less retraining will be required.

palata 19d ago
I am not so convinced: most staff do relatively basic stuff with MS365, right? People don't like to even try something else, but when they have no choice, it doesn't take them 5 years to understand how to select text in one of the Microsoft Word competitors and click "bold".
- philipallstar 19d ago
  No, they're frequently using things like track changes in Word docs and even small variants to that (why not use Confluence with comments instead so we stop emailing docs around?) encounter a lot of tissue rejection. And marketing want their template with the latest branding pushed to everyone's Word as a default template. And it should integrate nicely with Sharepoint. And and and.

bulbar 19d ago

No, the risk is that Microsoft loses its de facto monopoly on Enterprise ecosystems. It's pretty hard to switch to Linux, some have tried, bigger entities never stuck to it. So far. Now with the political landscape shifting, the priority to achieve that has gone much higher.

SpacePortKnight 19d ago

It's far easier to disable annoyance of windows than deal with linux for most people and especially for large organisations.

illiac786 19d ago
Large organisation, hmmmkay, but for private persons, I disagree. Windows 11 is annoying as hell and removing the annoyances, while possible, is not easy for anyone not tech savvy.