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'People are going to get screwed' Pennsylvania voters unite against data centres
- doublepg23 2mo agoMany things divide us here: Wawa or Sheetz; cheesesteaks or pierogi; Eagles or Steelers; but I very glad we could come together on this.
- inferniac 2mo ago[flagged]
- hightrix 2mo agoConcerns about noise pollution and increased electricity costs are just morons? What about concerns about air pollution from unregulated diesel generators? Or using large amounts of water in drought prone areas?
- simondotau 2mo agoI wouldn’t be so coarse, but mostly yes. Data centres are hardly new, and the subset of legitimate criticisms problems are hardly unique.
- hightrix 2mo agoCare to expand?
- simondotau 2mo agoOthers already have elsewhere in this discussion.
- ratelimitsteve 2mo agoso what you're saying is that the problems people have with new data centers are real and well-documented?
- doublepg23 2mo ago> Data centres are hardly new A commenter below quotes a 73% annual growth rate vs. 23% over the prior decade. You don't think that'd have an effect on people's perception?
- simondotau 2mo agoPerception, absolutely yes.
- bothers 2mo agoDamn their lying eyes!
- beej71 2mo agoAnd physical, objective reality, too.
- simondotau 2mo agoIt’s all just feelings, based on observations affected by hundreds of variables entirely unrelated to one particular type of industrial construction. Start paying closer attention to the news and make note of when facts are cherry picked to suit sentiment… and then ask yourself where the origin of the sentiment is.
- gruez 2mo agoAll of those can be addressed by proper regulation. Banning them outright is the equivalent of banning all immigration just because there's some particular subgroup that people hate.
- bothers 2mo ago> All of those can be addressed by proper regulation. No it can't. Regulation is already being flouted. > Banning them outright is the equivalent of banning all immigration Please be less obvious, this is just insulting.
- gruez 2mo ago>No it can't. Regulation is already being flouted. So regulations to ban datacenters work, but for some reason regulations to ban gas turbines or whatever doesn't work? >Please be less obvious, this is just insulting. Please be less obvious. You failing to rebut my argument and resorting to calling it "just insulting" is insulting.
- bothers 2mo ago> So regulations to ban datacenters work Yes, as we see here. > regulations to ban gas turbines or whatever doesn't work? Yes, as we've seen elsewhere. Anything else you're not clear on?
- ratelimitsteve 2mo ago>99% of the time 99% is an interesting figure because that's roughly how much my energy bill has increased despite no significant change in my usage due to data center demand on the grid
- Henchman21 2mo agoBuddy I work in world class premier data centers and I don’t want more of ‘em either. I appreciate that you think I’m a moron though for wanting to protect my community from douchebags like yourself. But respectfully I reject your bullshit.
- ratelimitsteve 2mo agoThey can't engage with your ideas, so they try to label you as the kind of person whose ideas aren't worth engaging with. It doesn't matter to them what you said, it must be wrong because you said it. Unless, of course, you agree with them, in which case you suddenly become worth taking seriously again.
- Henchman21 2mo agoAin’t that the truth!
- insane_dreamer 2mo agoI oppose AI data centers the way they are being rolled out (which is not the same as I'm against data centers as a concept). Just like I'm anti "AI as it is being pushed", not against AI as a technology. I'm not a moron. I do know what I'm talking about most of the time.
- kerhackernews 2mo agoReally the main issue causing the data center backlash is because they aren't building new 100% green energy production capacity with it. When you drop a data center into an area, energy prices will spike. Additionally, without that green energy capacity they will cause much more air pollution.
- running101 2mo agoOr the fact everyone's utility bills are going up.
- simondotau 2mo agoIn part due to rising global prices of energy resources, which affect local markets and non-oil markets due to the (partial) fungibility of energy and the global nature of marketplaces.
- VoodooJuJu 2mo ago[dead]
- nxm 2mo agoThat includes nuclear power, correct?
- triceratops 2mo agoCan they build it safely as fast as the data center it's meant to power? Full steam ahead then.
- postalrat 2mo agoIt can be a little later. Your requirements is like demanding nobody can buy a house unless they have pay they entire amount upfront.
- AndrewDucker 2mo ago
- bugbull 2mo ago[dead]
- tolugenius 2mo agoArchive link: http://archive.today/0Rxl7 http://archive.today/0Rxl7
- neko_ranger 2mo agoResidents of the state should get money for needing to live next to data centers and the use of their land/natural resources/etc, similar to the Alaska Permanent Fund.
- jrflo 2mo agoThey already do, indirectly. The local government gets property taxes from these data centers. But maybe it would be more real for people if you just wrote them a check I guess.
- Yhippa 2mo agoNew rev source = spend more as opposed to reduce taxpayer burden?
- GolfPopper 2mo agoWhile specifics vary by state and county, data centers have often been getting 100% property tax abatements good for decades.
- mikestew 2mo agoThe local government gets property taxes from these data centers. Not if they get a sweetheart tax deal. Why do you think folks are so pissy? It’s like a sports stadium next to your house in that the principals get tax breaks, eminent domain, and other considerations, but it makes noise every day(not just weekends) and you don’t get to go to the game.
- forshaper 2mo agoEven with a state sweetheart tax deal, the most populated county in my state gets half of its property tax income from a datacenter. Projection for one in my county looks like it would hit 70%. tbh I'm more worried about the resource curse from the sudden change in budget
- WarmWash 2mo agoThe sweetheart deals are usually from the state, sometimes the county. Town budgets tend to be so small that ~$20m/yr will have the council falling over themselves to approve it. The problem, from the cases I have looked at, seems to be that towns want to do dumb shit with this money rather than just cut residents a tax break.
- Zigurd 2mo agoThere's lots of AI capex that is low risk. If it ends up being under utilized companies like Amazon and Google will adjust their capex plans. When they say things like under spending is riskier than overspending, for them, that's plausible. But the sketchiest part of the bubble is when you directly bolt a no name data center company to Nvidia's cash pile, and you start turning cash into ever-lengthening receivables collection time, that's why people are skeptical of data centers: even if they can't tell a Google data center from a pivoting crypto bros data center, they smell the bullshit. People also know they are being lied to, Oracle claims their New Mexico data center will run on Bloom fuel cells. I doubt Bloom is ready to scale to data center size without proof of concept in different applications at large if not directly comparable scale.
- gilliethefoil 2mo ago[dead]
- martythemaniak 2mo agoThe intense anti-DC sentiment shouldn't be surprising - NIMBYism is the only viable mechanism available to people in the US. It doesn't matter if you're worried about Glonzo or have real concerns, they must be expressed in NIMBY terms in order to be heard. For example, imagine you're worried about what goes on inside those DCs, are worried about the lack of accountability from Big Tech and would like to see sensible consumer-protection regulations. Can you express that anywhere? Sure, you can leave random comments somewhere, but that doesn't matter. OTOH, you can actually join a local NIMBY group and slow things down. It's not what you want, but it's better than nothing. Same goes for people worried about clean energy and other issues.
- nixosbestos 2mo agoI think this is why I'm sort of excited about this, even if some of it's "misguided" according to some. I haven't seen people really care and mobilize since maybe BLM?
- iamnothere 2mo agoThis is fair and I think it’s what is really happening here. The only lever the government seems to have is tax breaks, and the only lever the people seem to have is NIMBYism. What a joke.
- monster_truck 2mo agoDo they promise?
- peterldowns 2mo agoAs a Pennsylvanian I think this is idiotic and I completely blame the press, who have breathlesslly amplified baseless negative claims. Such as that datacenters are somehow bad for the environment, have negative impacts on water supply, will raise energy and water rates for residential customers, etc. I HATE that this is somehow becoming a culture war issue.
- convolvatron 2mo agowe can probably generalize and say that anything that's a culture war issue has become disconnected with useful actionable reality.
- muddi900 2mo agoThis is not a culture war issue. And there are people posting real data ITT.
- convolvatron 2mo agoit certainly seems to be. if it were just a matter of noise, or discharging contaminated water, or waste gasses we're supposed to have rules for these things. any facility that does these things is supposed to adhere to them. so the issue isn't about data centers at all, but the fact that we've decided to stop enforcing even minimal environmental standards. water consumption is another one, we just haven't done a very good of realizing that its a limited resource and trying to manage it. the other is raising electrical rates. it should just be a real problem to raise rates to pay for Capex for other non-residential customers. those are all real issues. 'people are going to get screwed' is a culture war thing, particularly if their opinion seems to be against environmental regulation as a matter of course. if a data center isn't noisy and polluting, and doesn't impact water or electrical consumption, then there is no sane reason to be against it. there are data centers that use close loop cooling. there are those that don't effect your rates. there are ones that are not really close to residences.
- 1mo ago
- greenowl 2mo agoTurns out putting them in space is the answer!
- nancyminusone 2mo agoPeople don't want the billionaires coming into your town and having their way with it, the one you live in and are supposed to get a say in how things are done. This is not difficult to understand.
- jeanmichelselli 2mo agoI'm glad to see that people unite for things like this. This is important and necessary.
- spiderfarmer 2mo agoIt's just sad that Americans only unite when it's something in their own backyard. Democracy in the US is collapsing, and people are standing idly by. Maybe they'll leave an angry comment under a TikTok video, but that's about all the patriotism people seem to muster.
- cmiles8 2mo agoYou tell everyone AI is going to put them out of a job and then you’re surprised when working class communities say “no, please leave” when folks want to build a data center in their back yard. There are times when Silicon Valley looks out of touch and there are times when Silicon Valley just looks like idiots with hubris. This is more the later.
- bpodgursky 2mo agoThere are many surveys which make it clear, this is not the reason. They are straightforwardly (right or wrong) protesting the physical installations, their water and electricity use, and other hard-to-quantify vibes like radiation and noise (similar to 5g protests). They know very little about the job market impact of AI, and are mostly retired so they don't care anyway.
- jamesmaniscalco 2mo ago“Mostly retired” is a red herring. Protests of all kinds are always full of retirees. They can speak up for the community while the rest of us have to go to work.
- cmiles8 2mo agoThinking that the folks objecting are mostly grumpy retired people clueless about markets isn’t helping the perception that Silicon Valley is grossly out of touch with reality.
- bpodgursky 2mo agoThe protestors are mostly retired, and are not familiar (or most often, are actively skeptical of) the job market impact. These are just the facts, let's please not disagree on things where it is so easy to verify the ground truth. In fact, the majority of people cite the data centers as (1) "AI slop machines", (2) a bubble that will burst leaving a data center behind or (3) surveillance factories. Very few think they will produce useful output. This is completely at odds with the idea they will displace the job market.
- jmyeet 2mo agoConsider: 1. Lawmakers literally do not care what you think (study from Princeton) [1]; 2. Private utilities are more expensive than public utilities [2]; and 3. Nobody goes to war over a solar panel [3]. All of this is relevant here. The privatization of utilities has shown to be a massive mistake, in part based on debunked economics (ie the tragedy of the commons). Demand is very inelastic so they have to be highly regulated. The electricity price is set by lawmakers so how do they make profits? By building more infrastructure because that cost can be passed on to consumers. So if a hyperscalar needs 6GW of power, you need to build massive transmission lines and power plants. That's great for private utility profits. And that's what we're all paying for. The DCs are usually getting subsidized electricity as well as not paying for the extra infrastructure. So many things would be better if we'd had mass adoption of renewable power but that's bad for the wealthy. You install a solar panel and it just generates electricity every year. It can be built incrementally and quickly. It also tends to utilize land that is of little value otherwise, such as in the Southwest US. But fossil fuels make people wealthy. An oil or natural gas well declines in production over time. That means you have to keep building them. That's more profit. This whole saga is revealing to a lot of people just how little lawmakers care about the voters. They'll ignore protests and vote anyway. They'll do it in secret. If they get voted out, who cares? They'll magically find their way into jobs for these companies. [1]: https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba [2]: https://energyandpolicy.org/utility-profit-report/ https://energyandpolicy.org/utility-profit-report/ [3]: https://www.theenergymix.com/no-one-goes-to-war-over-a-solar-panel/ https://www.theenergymix.com/no-one-goes-to-war-over-a-solar...
- mannanj 2mo agoAnyone who has never lived next to a data center is commentating on the side lines without experience about what it’s actually like. Lots of these commentaries miss the following: - noise and uncomfortable vibrations making nearby habitual living challenging - rises costs of power and water - more traffic and disruption to traveling patterns The first is a big deal. These companies have a history of refusing to address noise and disruptions to neighbors personal health. They simply don’t care because they only care about the money. Its greed at an immense level. Until you’re ready to accept you would be comfortable with a data center as your neighbor you have 0 skin in making decisions for others who do. And the rich bourgeoisie people who are so misguided about this: mark Cuban, Kevin O’Leary famous shark tank billionaires, who claim “you’re experiencing Chinese propaganda about data centers” and probably even anyone on these forums who makes a strong claim without experience, would never ever accept living next to a data center. They are sideline commentators and should take responsibility for the harms to local people.
- vatsachak 2mo agoWhy don't they just buy extra land surrounding the data center to reduce noise pollution concerns? Regardless hopefully this restarts nuclear power generation
- JimiofEden 2mo agoI can actually speak to this as someone in ruralish Pennsylvania whose town is going through one of these backlashes pretty heavily. The major issue, at least in my neighborhood, is location more than anything else. We have a lot of industrially zoned areas that are great for data center location, and where they could be surrounded by other established industrial builds (think soda bottling plants, warehouses, transportation depos, semiconductor fabs, etc.) All the infrastructure is built out, electricity needs, etc. There is also a ton of land that exists that could be used for this purpose pretty distantly from town centers, if you can convince the gov/owners to part with it. But despite this, the folks who want to expand data centers are instead trying to push instead into residential areas, or otherwise on land that would basically butt you up against pre-existing neighborhoods. Where I lack insight is if it's a matter of industrial property being too expensive compared to the swathes of otherwise unused land (at least that isn't used for state forests or whatnot,) or if there just literally is no room available for what they want to build out. But all the aspects of having bought your land to be in a residential area suddenly become way busy, value might go down because it's now in this weird quasi-industrial zone. While there are legitimate concerns about the electricity/water usage, I (tinfoil hat) think that this is more of a game of influence/propaganda/state-level interest in an subject where it's easy to sow seeds of dissent. I personally think the electricity/water thing is a concern on a bigger scale than just individual utility bills, but it's blown out of proportion under that guise by conveniently cherry picking data from extreme examples. I also (more tinfoil) think that there's a lot of money changing hands since the AI boom is still growing and people are desperate to try to make a buck asap in any way possible, regardless of what may come tomorrow, so they're more willing to make a profit off of everything, but I have no legitimate proof of this.
- beej71 2mo agoEveryone against data centers is doing cost-benefit analysis. If the data center folks want to solve this, work on that ratio. And both sides, if you please, since the perceived benefit right now is basically zero.