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Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge
- rdmuser 20d agoGot posted a couple times recently. This one got a couple comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49474734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49474734
- swingandamiss 20d agoMore Japanese obsessed hacker news posts. What's up with this? There's a daily post on HN of various topics, usually something obscure, about Japan. Why?
- oliculipolicula 20d agoAs I understand it, Japan is seen to be like a parallel universe where the American South successfully seceded but became technologically advanced, even surpassing the North in some areas (by adopting a Meiji type constitutional monarchy)
- eqvinox 20d agoHaving been to Japan several times… and actually studying Japanese studies… I can see why you're saying this but it's very superficial. None of the southern "essence" that caused the split & war is there in Japan at this point. Or do you mean it's as if the South seceded, then proceeded to lose anyway due their policies being a natural disadvantage, and then developed, out-northing the North? What is characteristic of "the American South" here?
- LPisGood 20d agoPresumably the characteristic being referred to is superficial politeness mixed with racism or xenophobia.
- eqvinox 20d agoThat does actually kinda make sense, but it works very differently... the politeness is anything but superficial (even counters the racism and xenophobia to a limited degree, but also hides it, coming out to ±0), and the latter two are indeed present but coded as to be ashamed of rather than proud… (unfortunately the coding of shame is also different and doesn't spurn action). It actually makes it harder to tackle the discrimination, since it's not openly admitted. Glass walls and ceiling. (Recommended read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin 'There is a "virtual taboo" in the Japanese media against discussing the topic, leading to widespread public ignorance.')
- jankcorn 20d agoWhen I lived in Japan and was asked "Why are you interested in Japan?", I used to respond "It is the only non-Western country(at the time) where I have seen an extremely high level of technical/economic development and it is interesting to see similiarities/differences". (This is of course, long long before the rise of modern China) The society is based so strongly on group cohesion and de-emphasis of the individual, the experience of living there is very, very different than the West. I think that this "deep cultural difference" is what the original comment was trying to get at. Sadly the reference point of "American South" ended up triggering a different (less useful) trajectory for the responses.
- eqvinox 20d agoDoes the American South actually have that kind of group cohesion?
- oliculipolicula 20d agoThe kind of group cohesion you have in Japan tiday wasn't quite all there during the Meiji era (they'd just come out of a civil war, after all. Then there were also sporadic uprisings for decades after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichibu_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichibu_incident) The following may help--- if you think of Othello as a kind of ideal southern gentleman, as the Japanese sort of did https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Othello-in-Tokyo%3A-Performing-Race-and-Empire-in-Tierney/2a1a84d875d74f08f5db92b6a54193a13b0d8000 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Othello-in-Tokyo%3A-Pe... Now a Alt-Dixie readaptation of that adaptation must of course be the story of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest (Taiwanese would be negroes loyal to the Cause, and Ainu would be the native Americans)
- rayiner 20d agoYou may think that because of the nationalism, but that's a superficial similarity. Outside western europeans, almost everyone is nationalistic, so that's not a useful characteristic in comparing societies. Aside from that, the American south is more like the Arab world/India--disorderly, combative, face-saving culture, and food-, family-, and faith-centric. The Japanese are much more like Mormons.
- Grombobulous 20d agoThe “became technologically advanced” part of this hypothetical is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
- kmeisthax 20d agoYes and no. The biggest historical commonality between the American South and Japan - or, at least, the Tokugawa shogunate that was ruling around the same time as the South - was that both of them were at one point ruled by a cabal of essentially feudal lords. There is a lot of convergent social evolution that happens when your country's economic elite all make their money by owning land - lots of strange social titles, honorifics start floating around, people start talking around problems, and the like. However, this comparison is only skin deep, and there's plenty of things the Tokugawas did that have no parallel, or even worked backwards, to what happened in the historically contemporaneous American south: - Sakoku (the policy of keeping Japan completely closed to trade and immigration). - While America generally has had a long streak of veneration of the police, they never reinvented anything close to the samurai in terms of being a hereditary warrior class with a tax stipend. - Likewise, the American South did not have a caste system; Japan did (and so did France?!?) This makes more sense when you remember that the Tokugawa shogunate itself is the time reversal of the American South: the Tokugawas were born out of a long civil war and ended with a foreign invasion (from America) while the American South was born from foreign invasion (of Americans) and ended with a civil war. The American South is also, interestingly enough, a mirror of Japan in other dimensions as well. The reason why the Tokugawas shut the country's borders for hundreds of years was because they understood that Christian missionaries were a front for a larger invasion force that would pillage the country's resources and abduct people to become slaves in other countries. Of course, the South was buying slaves abducted in other countries in massive quantities. Going back to the convergent social evolution I mentioned before, you can see some of this in Japan today. Kyoto is notorious for doing exactly the same kind of backhanded compliment bullshit the South loves doing. But even then, that's one part of Japan, that was formerly the capital city. One stop on the Shinkansen takes you to Osaka where people are about as open and outgoing as Americans are.
- samus 19d ago> The reason why the Tokugawas shut the country's borders for hundreds of years was because they understood that Christian missionaries were a front for a larger invasion force that would pillage the country's resources and abduct people to become slaves in other countries. They simply didn't want another religion. Buddhism was already troublesome enough with a long history of popular uprisings and many monasteries having become as powerful as daimyos. Oda Nobunaga had been mostly tolerant of religions and also of Christians, but he is infamous for bloody curbing their power. The Tokugawa didn't want any of that from happening again, regardless which religion. There was also a strong motivation to deflate the power of the port cities. They were often in the hands of untrusted daimyos because the Tokugawa prioritized controlling inland regions with farmland and important road connections to keep the economy running and to ensure that troops could be deployed everywhere and kept supplied in case of rebellions.
- gfrecvh 20d ago[flagged]
- alfg 20d agoCultural differences, especially with increased tourism in Japan lately. There's a lot we can learn from each other and people like to share their experiences. Is it really that surprising these topics come up more often?
- samus 20d agoSure, but there are a lot of non-western cultures out there. What's surprising is the prevalence of posts regarding Japanese culture.
- Enginerrrd 20d agoI think it’s just that Japanese culture represents a very sophisticated antithesis to many western cultural pillars. Collectivism over individualism, incredible development of the aesthetics of simplicity and emptiness compared to the ostentatious and sometimes baroque western aesthetics, neat and tidy compared to cluttered, the fanatical emphasis on mastery of technique, or things that can’t be produced via shortcuts, etc etc. Overall I think the Japanese are viewed as much more disciplined and conscientious which is valued in the west. And a lot of these things seem like wizardry to Americans because we’re lacking the routines and building blocks that lead to it. In essence the Japanese are very process oriented, and Americans see the results and want them but don’t understand the process side of things as it’s not intrinsic to our culture. Yet the results are admirable… whether or not Americans would actually want to live the process that leads to those results is another story. That’s the gist of it I think.
- pezezin 20d ago> neat and tidy compared to cluttered People who think this have actually never been to Japan, most Japanese homes and offices are incredibly messy.
- vkazanov 20d agoReality should never stand in thr way of a good export-oriented myth :-)
- ahartmetz 20d agoYou don't even need to go there, just look at Japanese websites.
- shoobiedoo 19d agoI live in Japan and in the rare event that there is an online option when I need to do something related to government documents, banking, insurance, or the like, all I can think is-- "wtf is this, geocities?". It's always a clunky, awkward, boxed in mess of text that is a miracle in the case that it actually works. But that's just the way it is here. Lots of elderly, and the elderly prefer a nice helpful receptionist, I guess?
- rayiner 20d agoBecause Japan is amazing. Probably especially so for a crowd that tends towards orderly-minded engineering types like HN.
- gverrilla 20d agoit's related to fascist ideas of japanese people being unique and people in the west joining that stupid 'philosophy'.
- MrDrMcCoy 20d agoI expect the simplicity of the site's design appeals to the Japanese.
- jwrallie 20d agoI could be mistaken but I think most of those posts seem to show up around business hours in Japan. My guess is it is coming from expats living there.
- Der_Einzige 19d agoGo look at the demographics of how many HN members are in Wmaf relationships and it’ll explain itself perfectly to a tee…
- shdon 20d agoIn Dutch culture it is far more common to keep shoes on literally everywhere, so perhaps I'm biased, but I would think that in an emergency where every second counts, these people can be forgiven for not adhering to the strictest etiquette? I'm not surprised the person last mentioned in the article, who suggests exactly that, got 800 likes on their comment. I am surprised that it even needed to be said. Now I'm suddenly wondering (probably stupidly) whether firefighters also take their shoes off when entering a burning building.
- cannonpr 20d agoSo, I can’t honestly personally understand taking your shoes off in an emergency, however I am sure they have gotten very efficient at it.. I can say that if they didn’t it would cause damage to the home, many Japanese homes, especially traditional but also in general just aren’t built to take shoes. Tatami mats, and even hinoki floors despite being “hard” for a softwood, is still a softwood, so some level of genuine damage would occur. Again of-course versus the emergency in saving a human life, I’m not quite sure I can understand it.
- deleted 20d ago[deleted]
- f33d5173 20d agoMost shoes have rubber soles, to do damage to the floor it would have to be softer than rubber.
- JuniperMesos 20d ago> Another user attracted more than 800 likes for suggesting that strict etiquette could perhaps be forsaken at such times: “It’s an emergency. I would just tell them: ‘Please step inside with your shoes on!’” This seems like the best policy in an emergency where 30 seconds actually matters. And I actually like the East Asian custom of taking one's shoes off before entering a house and adopt it myself.
- Izkata 20d agoWhere I grew up (suburbs in the Midwest in the US) it was common and expected all around that you'd leave your shoes just inside the door and walk around in your socks, at least for family/friends/guests. Can't remember about service workers.
- vkazanov 20d agoIs this how most of the world operates? :-)
- bjelkeman-again 20d agoIn the Nordics (SE, FI, NO, DK) it is pretty much the same. A large part of the year your shoes are a mess and you don’t want that indoors.
- vkazanov 20d agoYeah! Same for finland, the baltic states, or poland, or russia, or any country really where there is any kind of serious winter happening.
- jillesvangurp 19d agoWhen I worked in Helsinki, it was quite common to see people do this in the office as well. Some people that were otherwise appropriately dressed (business casual) would be walking around on slippers. Always thought that was slightly funny. Very practical though. I had some rugged hiking boots that I wore in the winter there that definitely would come off when I got to work.
- theonething 20d agotangential, but I don't understand why keeping your shoes on in your house is a thing. It's so unsanitary. The bottom of your shoes are in contact with things like the floor of public bathrooms, animal feces (when walking on grass), dirt, mud, etc. And it's so much more comfortable to be in your house barefoot, with socks or with slippers. So much cleaner. I'm disgusted when people try to walk in my house with their shoes on.
- wpm 20d agoI'm the same way but if I pass out in my house I absolutely do not give a shit about any of that and don't want the EMTs wasting time taking their shoes off to save my ass.
- bigstrat2003 20d agoThere's nothing unsanitary about it. The bottoms of your shoes simply are not that dirty unless you're walking through abnormally dirty situations.
- Gigachad 20d agoThat's the whole function of shoes though. If outside was as clean as my floors at home, I wouldn't need shoes. I have to imagine the person who leaves their shoes on either never goes outside, or just has filthy floors.
- eqvinox 20d ago> That's the whole function of shoes though. Nah, the main function of shoes is (to support your feet and) prevent injury. Cleanliness is second on the list. [ed.: added braces]
- Gigachad 20d agoYour feet do not need support, they were evolved over millions of years to support themselves. Someone who habitually wears shoes indoors might lose the muscle strength in their feet in the same way someone who drives everywhere loses leg strength, but this isn't natural or optimal.
- Georgelemental 20d agoHere in America, EMS personnel generally wear tall, reinforced boots; they are considered protective/safety equipment. We would never take them off just to enter a home
- eqvinox 20d agoProbably the same in most Western countries. It's self reinforcing though; if you were expecting to take them off you'd never pick those shoes by default, rather leave them in the back of the car (which presumably/hopefully is what they do in Japan, in case they *do* need them? idk…)
- agarwaen163 20d agoif you do need them you're not going to have time to go get them as an Emergency Responder. I think the pragmatic course then is to disregard etiquette and tradition for safety and practicality in a general sense.
- eqvinox 20d agoEveryone except the driver has ample time to swap boots during the drive to the location. (In cases where not, I'd also default to robust safety boots.) Depending on the boots, you might not want to wear them while "idle"¹ in any case, though that's mostly a non-concern with modern safety shoes. ¹ mandatory note: most emergency responders have tons of work while "idle", I just mean "not actively responding"
- Georgelemental 20d agoYou don't always know what the location is like though. You are called to an apartment: maybe it is spotlessly clean, maybe the floor is littered with used needles
- left-struck 20d agoThat would be very unlikely in Japan, maybe it would happen a handful of times in your career and you could indeed put on safer boots. Anyway I’m not against paramedics wearing boots in my apartment, in an emergency very few people would care about that even in Japan.
- krupan 20d agoDoes everyone in Japan wear slip-on shoes?
- wahnfrieden 20d agoNo
- naishoya 20d agoum, pretty much, yes. Even when it looks like a laced up tennis shoe, closer examination of an 'outdoor' shoe will show that it has been stomped into and slipped out of many times. If it is a sports use, i.e. basketball or other gymnasium, or indoors in a professional setting like at a busy office there will be a changing area and people etiher change into provided slippers (town hall and community centers, schools, and other public spaces have many cubicles and slippers) or will change into 'indoor shoes' brought for the purpose. There is a strong cultural 'habit' that can be interpreted as 'manners' such that when visiting someone's house and switching from outdoor shoes the host will then either turn the shoes toward the outdoors such that they are easier to step into on the way out, or will arrange them facing out but no longer in the main path of the entry way. It is this 'manners' which the EMT is requesting to stop. The indoor slippers are used for hard floor and rug covered areas, but not tatami mats. A quality tatami mat can be damaged and require actual replacement if stepped on with a hard soled shoe even once. So the 'taking off of shoes on the way in my EMT is quite appropriate, and the time to 'unshoe' and reshoe on the way in and out is cumulatively not more than 5 to 7 seconds total - if the emergency case is that close to failure, the low speed ambulance ride through narrow streets is going to be the failure, not the shoes. But rearranged and relocated shoes becomes much more complex when the crew have a person in a stretcher (which is faster AND safer than a rolling gurney) - they can step into their own shoes without really even looking if the shoes are left exactly as they were placed on the way in - and this is what the original article is requesting. The intent of the article in original Japanese is: "Don't slow down the exit process by moving our shoes in an effort to be 'mindful of good manners'. We really wont think poorly of your manners if you neglect this small gesture"
- 20d ago
- anigbrowl 20d agoFirefighters in Japan wear boots and keep them on, but fire is generally cause for demolition anyway due to the way most homes are constructed. The Japanese shoe taboo is about purity. It's not about protecting the floor but about the idea of cleanliness. Walking in with outdoor shoes is the equivalent of deliberately walking into a western home with dogshit all over your shoes, or (since most Japanese homes have small family altars inside) spiritual desecration.
- vkazanov 20d agoPeople in the west tend to overthink spirituality. Having been to houses/flats across all of eurasia, uk to hong kong, vietnam to lithuania, the majority prefers taking shoes when entering a house, but can be as practical as necessary when the need arises.
- thih9 20d ago> Another user attracted more than 800 likes for suggesting that strict etiquette could perhaps be forsaken at such times: “It’s an emergency. I would just tell them: ‘Please step inside with your shoes on!’”
- swiftcoder 20d agoIt is mind blowing to me that the shoes-off-inside rule is so deeply entrenched that emergency responders remove their shoes at the front door
- arjie 20d agoWhen I was a child in India, I was taught (not by my parents, by the societal milieu I suppose) to not let the (soles of?) my feet touch a book or a bag that contains books of knowledge. In any case, the behavior is a strongly trained habit so I feel compelled to do it. I do not choose or or not choose to do it. It is close to an automatic behavior, something like wrinkling one’s nose at a bad smell or so on. I was not brought up in a religious household and have never been a follower of any known religion. And I do not have any belief tied to this behavior. It is an oddity of my being that I accept. Isn’t it interesting how one can be conditioned so? I sometimes wonder if alcoholics or drug addicts feel this way. Perhaps the Japanese feel this way about their cultural quirk in the way I feel about mine.
- fakedang 20d agoMost (literate, educated) Indians have been trained the same, and it has very little to do with religion. When you do accidentally step on a book though, each religion has their own format - Hindus touch the book then touch their head then chest in penance, Muslims lightly kiss the book or touch the book/bag and kiss their hand, Christians touch the book and cross themselves. This is something I've noticed is uniquely culturally Indian, and transcends all religions. Which is beautiful. I was once whacked in the head by a teacher for throwing a book onto the shelf, and rightly so.
- arjie 20d agoPerhaps it is regional. Where I grew up the error-repair gesture varied certainly (forehead, lips, etc.) but I went to Catholic school for a while and I do not recall the distinction being neatly by religion but my memory isn’t that sharp of that period of my childhood. Considering the rationale offered by Hindus, I’d be inclined to believe it is a Hindu custom adopted by everyone else by virtue of relative numbers. Sort of like how Christmas is secular in the US, Diwali in India, and perhaps weaker something like Eid in Jordan. So I agree, very little to do with religion today, but perhaps not so always. Something like Halloween perhaps.
- purpleidea 20d agoIn Canada, we wear steel-toe, steel-shank safety boots, and we're kind of required to keep them on. We surely give them a good clunk to get rid of mud or snow, particularly in the winter, and we try to wipe our feet as much as possible when it's not a dire emergency, but you called 911, so... your floor is going to get dirty. Might already have blood on it anyways.
- embedding-shape 19d agoSame, even in countries I live/lived where not taking off shoes indoors is borderline a social crime, paramedics, emergency services and even craftspeople/tradespeople would typically not take off their shoes when entering your home. Personally I got so tired of it we got those "one-use blue shoe covers" that we tell them to wear before going in, but of course I don't think either of us would think about that if we called for emergency services.
- zorobo 19d agoWhen we shifted houses and used a Japanese moving company, I was very surprised as movers removed their shoes every time they stepped into our places, both old and new. Oh, they also had gloves on when packing our plates and utensils!
- pvaldes 19d agoThere are emergencies and emergencies, but removing your protective gear when you are entering in a emergency scenery is an horrible idea by several reasons. After thousands of interventions in this places, you are basically guaranteed to step while in your sockets on blood, syringes, broken bottles and glass pieces. Awful idea. Your toes smashing the leg of a table if you have luck. Hepatitis or HIV if not. Also removing shoes that were designed to assure maximum stability before to enter in an unknown scenery can be a big mistake. You will regret it later, trying desperately not slip while you navigate a stretcher on a narrow spiral staircase, carrying a heavy guy with a fractured leg.
- ldx1024 19d agoWould it be against Japanese etiquette to simply write "Please Don't Reposition" on these work shoes? Seems like that would reduce the number of times this happens.
- physhster 19d agoI think, perhaps, Japanese paramedics shouldn't take their shoes off...
- waffletower 19d agoI lived in Japan for 5 1/2 years. I slept on a futon in a tatami room in my apartment most nights. I have a getabako (shoe cabinet) at my home in the US that I actually brought back from Japan. I understand the depth of the ritual, and the cultural respect for the home, but my American culture runs more deeply I am afraid, and I can't help but say "Please emergency workers, just leave your shoes on and say 'shitsurei shimasu' (sorry for my rudeness) as you enter the home".