5 ms·

>Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but... Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China. And in Aus

>Could EU just ask DHL/Hermes/whatever to charge an additional €1 "for recycling"? Yes, but... Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China. And in Austria we will soon pay additional ~€2 for every delivered package. And 20% VAT. Edit: I am pretty sure at least some part of these already contribute towards recycling. The goal here is likely not just to get more funding for recycling, but rather to use materials that can be recycled in the first place. Which you cannot achieve simply by charging businesses or consumers more.

deno 3mo ago
This has nothing to do with EPR. The €3 for packages from China is a fixed processing fee on top of potential tariffs. They got rid of the de minimis €150 limit for tariffs and added fees on top. There was also €25 VAT de minimis limit but that’s also no longer the case since some time.
- LaurensBER 3mo ago
  Important nuance here is that the €3 for packages from China is a temporary solution and will eventually (2028?) be replaced by a more permanent system which _might_ work out more favourable for electronics. Having said that, the customs duty will go to the EU budget so there's now a direct incentive for the EU to maintain or perhaps even increase this.
danielovichdk 3mo ago
It should be much higher. The amount of shit that gets shipped from China to Europe (world) is fucking ludicrous, and people should be taxed heavily for the stupid shit they often don't need.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- FpUser 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - bryanlarsen 3mo ago
    You're replying to a comment that proposes a market-based solution. Shipping has externalities. Those externalities should be included in the cost of shipping. Then the market will make the right decision.
    - Betelgeux 3mo ago
      Well, if some bureaucratic governing body provides decisions based on some opaque system, and forces these upon market participants - usually that is regarded just the opposite of market-based solutions in economics. Those decisions do have zero chance of internalizing external costs, but most likely will just add an other layer of externality and move the process even more into the field of non-market based coordination mechanisms.
    - timmmmmmay 3mo ago
      Every time I see somebody make an argument about "externalities" it's never actually backed up with any fact-based analysis about the magnitude of them. It's always exclusively vibes-based, "this thing you like is too cheap, it should be prohibitively expensive to make up for the thing I just thought of"
      - anigbrowl 3mo ago
        How do you expect people to discuss them across the scale of a whole economy without giant spreadsheets? Externalities are a well understood economic concept whose study goes back a century. https://www.acton.org/node/6427 https://www.acton.org/node/6427
        timmmmmmay 3mo ago
        I'm not saying externalities don't exist, I'm saying that basically every time somebody makes an argument relying on the concept, there's no attempt to quantify the externalized cost, it's just a vibe. Just go upthread, the argument is just "the stuff you're buying is crap that I don't think you really need, therefore it should be more expensive, however much more it takes for you to stop buying it". The economic concept implies that we're going to have an evidence-based discussion about how we're tracking specific dollar cost amounts of pollution or something, and then in practice that essentially never happens and it's just "I've decided you don't really need that thing you want"
- trinix912 3mo ago
  Right, so tell me where in Europe can I buy replacement parts for random electronics when I need them? Often very specific ICs, last time it was a cassette deck pinch roller, etc. Preferably somewhere where it’s cheaper than the value of the thing being repaired.
  - danielovichdk 3mo ago
    Yes, and that's a whole different problem, which in itself does not equal stupid shit. The reason the price for parcels from China is going up in Europe is not shipping chips or component, it's from shipping stupid fucking shit people do not need, from e.g Temu and copied goods such as clothing, shoes and what not. The toll offices in the airports are being drowned in cheap crap. Shut it down by making people pay more for the shit they buy. That will of course hurt everyone else, but that is how it works.
    - murderfs 3mo ago
      Clothing, famously less important on Maslow's hierarchy of needs than semiconductors.
      - prmoustache 3mo ago
        Well, clothing that doesn't last or made of plastic is indeed less important.
        trinix912 3mo ago
        Might it just be that people are buying from Temu because stuff at the mall is 10x as expensive and doesn’t even last all that longer nowadays? People can’t afford to pay 40€ for a T shirt.
        kamma4434 3mo ago
        Me too - I get the feeling it’s the same garbage at a different price point.
- rwyinuse 3mo ago
  Unfortunately, if you want to fix electronics more often than not China is the only place you can buy spare parts. I don't think buying spare parts to devices counts as "stupid shit".
  - eptcyka 3mo ago
    If you were to interpret the comment you’re responding to charitably, you’d understand that electronics components are a minuscule minority of all of Chinese exports.
    - roywashere 3mo ago
      Sure! I understand that everyone buying stuff on Temu and Shein is horrific. At the same time, me paying $$$ for ordering electrical components from China is rough for me. And also, I find it mind-blowing and ridiculous that Ali offered free shipping for small orders for so long whereas if I'd buy local I need to pay up for shipping, and if I'd start a small business in the Netherlands, shipping to the rest of the EU for small parcels is prohibitively expensive, not even taking into account PPWR
    - inglor_cz 3mo ago
      The problem with overarching regulations is that they kill the good along the bad, which is the original topic of the article being discussed...
    - dvdkon 3mo ago
      I'm tired of being told I don't matter because I'm in a minority. You'd never dare imply a tax making gypsy folk singing unviable is fine because it's a "miniscule minority" of all music played, so why do it for electronics repair?
      - inigyou 3mo ago
        But a ban on making loud noises after midnight would also impact a gypsy who likes to folk sing after midnight and it would be pretty ludicrous to cite that as a reason not to do it.
- wolvoleo 3mo ago
  Not everything is unnecessary and a lot of it will be bought anyway but now through EU resellers that charge a lot more for the same shit.
- victorbjorklund 3mo ago
  Pretty much everything is made in China. Maybe you are just mad at the companies cutting out the European middle men making a large cut?
mstaoru 3mo ago
> Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China Yes, the point is, pay +€1 for packages from EU to EU to finance all this PPWR circus.
- mordae 3mo ago
  It is already €20+ to send something from e.g. Czechia to France.
  - mstaoru 3mo ago
    It doesn't matter, PPWR needs to get money from somebody to finance itself. Consumers end up paying it regardless of where PPWR's cut is taken.
rvba 3mo ago
DHL charges 1 eur for recycling, which it pockets since the envelope or box with thr product went to the consumer... who throws it away to the segregated garbage bin - for which every consumer also pays.
- thesimon 3mo ago
  > for which every consumer also pays. Idk, at least in Germany paper and (plastic) recycling is free. I only have to pay for organic trash and trash to be burned.
  - emsign 3mo ago
    That's correct. In Germany we pay "indirectly" via the end price. Meaning whoever has to pay the afforementioned EPR fee is free to add their cost to the price of the product.
    - yayachiken 3mo ago
      But to be fair, at least paper disposal is truly free because paper recycling generally turns a profit for the municipalities.
  - arielcostas 3mo ago
    In Spain we pay the "tasa de gestión de residuos" (residue management tax) to our city, for all recycling in general. doesn't matter if it's paper, plastics/packagings, organics (many cities now collect those separat from non-organic) and other residues. It also includes the "punto limpio", a place to take larger electronics, batteries, car fluids and other stuff you can't just throw to the bin. Old medicine is collected at pharmacies though, it's a separate thing to avoid animals or people looking from the trash from getting medication, that could be dangerous. How is recycling free but you've got to pay for organics? Don't you just pay a tax (or pay it indirectly through income tax or VAT)? And you've got the whole returning the plastic bottles on the supermarket thing too, right?
  - philipallstar 3mo ago
retired 3mo ago
Not just China. Also packages from Japan and Thailand get this charge.
piltdownman 3mo ago
In Ireland, the National Postal Service (An Post) charges €6.95 processing on top of the €3 Customs Charge. An additional €2 handling fee per product is expected in November 2026. All subject to 23% Vat. So we go from €3 to about €15 a package ordering from the UK. The country we have a visa-less Common Travel Area exclusive from Schengen, without a land or sea border. You could feasibly pay less accompanying such a package in an Uber from Northern Ireland to Ireland (e.g. UK->EU). Joined up thinking at its finest to benefit the Benelux at the expense of the periphery.

deno 3mo ago

This has nothing to do with EPR. The €3 for packages from China is a fixed processing fee on top of potential tariffs. They got rid of the de minimis €150 limit for tariffs and added fees on top. There was also €25 VAT de minimis limit but that’s also no longer the case since some time.

LaurensBER 3mo ago
Important nuance here is that the €3 for packages from China is a temporary solution and will eventually (2028?) be replaced by a more permanent system which _might_ work out more favourable for electronics. Having said that, the customs duty will go to the EU budget so there's now a direct incentive for the EU to maintain or perhaps even increase this.

danielovichdk 3mo ago

It should be much higher. The amount of shit that gets shipped from China to Europe (world) is fucking ludicrous, and people should be taxed heavily for the stupid shit they often don't need.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
FpUser 3mo ago
[flagged]
- bryanlarsen 3mo ago
  You're replying to a comment that proposes a market-based solution. Shipping has externalities. Those externalities should be included in the cost of shipping. Then the market will make the right decision.
  - Betelgeux 3mo ago
    Well, if some bureaucratic governing body provides decisions based on some opaque system, and forces these upon market participants - usually that is regarded just the opposite of market-based solutions in economics. Those decisions do have zero chance of internalizing external costs, but most likely will just add an other layer of externality and move the process even more into the field of non-market based coordination mechanisms.
  - timmmmmmay 3mo ago
    Every time I see somebody make an argument about "externalities" it's never actually backed up with any fact-based analysis about the magnitude of them. It's always exclusively vibes-based, "this thing you like is too cheap, it should be prohibitively expensive to make up for the thing I just thought of"
    - anigbrowl 3mo ago
      How do you expect people to discuss them across the scale of a whole economy without giant spreadsheets? Externalities are a well understood economic concept whose study goes back a century. https://www.acton.org/node/6427 https://www.acton.org/node/6427
      - timmmmmmay 3mo ago
        I'm not saying externalities don't exist, I'm saying that basically every time somebody makes an argument relying on the concept, there's no attempt to quantify the externalized cost, it's just a vibe. Just go upthread, the argument is just "the stuff you're buying is crap that I don't think you really need, therefore it should be more expensive, however much more it takes for you to stop buying it". The economic concept implies that we're going to have an evidence-based discussion about how we're tracking specific dollar cost amounts of pollution or something, and then in practice that essentially never happens and it's just "I've decided you don't really need that thing you want"
trinix912 3mo ago
Right, so tell me where in Europe can I buy replacement parts for random electronics when I need them? Often very specific ICs, last time it was a cassette deck pinch roller, etc. Preferably somewhere where it’s cheaper than the value of the thing being repaired.
- danielovichdk 3mo ago
  Yes, and that's a whole different problem, which in itself does not equal stupid shit. The reason the price for parcels from China is going up in Europe is not shipping chips or component, it's from shipping stupid fucking shit people do not need, from e.g Temu and copied goods such as clothing, shoes and what not. The toll offices in the airports are being drowned in cheap crap. Shut it down by making people pay more for the shit they buy. That will of course hurt everyone else, but that is how it works.
  - murderfs 3mo ago
    Clothing, famously less important on Maslow's hierarchy of needs than semiconductors.
    - prmoustache 3mo ago
      Well, clothing that doesn't last or made of plastic is indeed less important.
      - trinix912 3mo ago
        Might it just be that people are buying from Temu because stuff at the mall is 10x as expensive and doesn’t even last all that longer nowadays? People can’t afford to pay 40€ for a T shirt.
        kamma4434 3mo ago
        Me too - I get the feeling it’s the same garbage at a different price point.
rwyinuse 3mo ago
Unfortunately, if you want to fix electronics more often than not China is the only place you can buy spare parts. I don't think buying spare parts to devices counts as "stupid shit".
- eptcyka 3mo ago
  If you were to interpret the comment you’re responding to charitably, you’d understand that electronics components are a minuscule minority of all of Chinese exports.
  - roywashere 3mo ago
    Sure! I understand that everyone buying stuff on Temu and Shein is horrific. At the same time, me paying $$$ for ordering electrical components from China is rough for me. And also, I find it mind-blowing and ridiculous that Ali offered free shipping for small orders for so long whereas if I'd buy local I need to pay up for shipping, and if I'd start a small business in the Netherlands, shipping to the rest of the EU for small parcels is prohibitively expensive, not even taking into account PPWR
  - inglor_cz 3mo ago
    The problem with overarching regulations is that they kill the good along the bad, which is the original topic of the article being discussed...
  - dvdkon 3mo ago
    I'm tired of being told I don't matter because I'm in a minority. You'd never dare imply a tax making gypsy folk singing unviable is fine because it's a "miniscule minority" of all music played, so why do it for electronics repair?
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      But a ban on making loud noises after midnight would also impact a gypsy who likes to folk sing after midnight and it would be pretty ludicrous to cite that as a reason not to do it.
wolvoleo 3mo ago
Not everything is unnecessary and a lot of it will be bought anyway but now through EU resellers that charge a lot more for the same shit.
victorbjorklund 3mo ago
Pretty much everything is made in China. Maybe you are just mad at the companies cutting out the European middle men making a large cut?

mstaoru 3mo ago

> Within EU we already pay ~€3 for packages from China Yes, the point is, pay +€1 for packages from EU to EU to finance all this PPWR circus.

mordae 3mo ago
It is already €20+ to send something from e.g. Czechia to France.
- mstaoru 3mo ago
  It doesn't matter, PPWR needs to get money from somebody to finance itself. Consumers end up paying it regardless of where PPWR's cut is taken.

rvba 3mo ago

DHL charges 1 eur for recycling, which it pockets since the envelope or box with thr product went to the consumer... who throws it away to the segregated garbage bin - for which every consumer also pays.

thesimon 3mo ago
> for which every consumer also pays. Idk, at least in Germany paper and (plastic) recycling is free. I only have to pay for organic trash and trash to be burned.
- emsign 3mo ago
  That's correct. In Germany we pay "indirectly" via the end price. Meaning whoever has to pay the afforementioned EPR fee is free to add their cost to the price of the product.
  - yayachiken 3mo ago
    But to be fair, at least paper disposal is truly free because paper recycling generally turns a profit for the municipalities.
- arielcostas 3mo ago
  In Spain we pay the "tasa de gestión de residuos" (residue management tax) to our city, for all recycling in general. doesn't matter if it's paper, plastics/packagings, organics (many cities now collect those separat from non-organic) and other residues. It also includes the "punto limpio", a place to take larger electronics, batteries, car fluids and other stuff you can't just throw to the bin. Old medicine is collected at pharmacies though, it's a separate thing to avoid animals or people looking from the trash from getting medication, that could be dangerous. How is recycling free but you've got to pay for organics? Don't you just pay a tax (or pay it indirectly through income tax or VAT)? And you've got the whole returning the plastic bottles on the supermarket thing too, right?
- philipallstar 3mo ago

retired 3mo ago

Not just China. Also packages from Japan and Thailand get this charge.

piltdownman 3mo ago

In Ireland, the National Postal Service (An Post) charges €6.95 processing on top of the €3 Customs Charge. An additional €2 handling fee per product is expected in November 2026. All subject to 23% Vat. So we go from €3 to about €15 a package ordering from the UK. The country we have a visa-less Common Travel Area exclusive from Schengen, without a land or sea border. You could feasibly pay less accompanying such a package in an Uber from Northern Ireland to Ireland (e.g. UK->EU). Joined up thinking at its finest to benefit the Benelux at the expense of the periphery.