8 ms·

When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, you can expect

• estearum 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • vjulian 2mo ago
    Working like a dog like this is necessary if you’re gunning for the elite / upper echelon of society, yes. If you’re already in that echelon of society, it’s not necessary. Thank goodness I didn’t need to work so hard, but I can acknowledge what a shitty system it is. Help me understand why these children or their parents are gunning in this manner and working like dogs in this manner, to join into and propagate such a shitty system?
    • estearum 2mo ago
      Because having money is a lot better than not having money
      • deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      • somenameforme 2mo ago
        I think it's more that if one doesn't really think one way or the other then life is very much a conveyor belt, and that belt will typically push you into college. And if you're going to go to college, why not go to the best that you can?
        • estearum 2mo ago
          Universities are still very good investments for most people who go to them
          • somenameforme 2mo ago
            In the US the overwhelming majority of people aren't majoring in STEM, and the return for most non-STEM majors is likely negative relative to something like a trade. Even for traditionally well paid cognitive work, LLMs are making the future quite murky. Weird and interesting times we live in. Who knows, maybe the future will make fine arts great again? Personally, I won't be discouraging or encouraging my children to go to college. I'll explain the pros and cons in both directions and leave it up to them.
  • consensus1 2mo ago
    Do we really want the upper echelons of society to be made up of neurotic workaholics? Do we really want universities to be gate keepers here at all?
    • hackyhacky 2mo ago
      No, we don't, but the alternatives are worse. Universities at least apply some meritocratic standards. If we bypass universities, there will be some other gatekeeper, it will be worse: mostly an "old boys network" and corrupt, pay-to-play advancement.
      • consensus1 2mo ago
        Seems like the country was more competently governed before the current university system, though. If its job is to gate keep incompetence out of leadership it is failing spectacularly.
        • estearum 2mo ago
          When you consider the complexification of any single industry over the last 50 to 100 years, then multiply that by every single other industry, then multiply that by the newly complex interactions between industries, then consider that the government must keep some degree of handle on all of that complexity, and consider that they must do it with a smaller headcount per capita (even before Trump) than ever before, against better-funded and more sophisticated "adversaries" (people/orgs trying to evade government management) than ever before ... It seems very possible to me that the managers of said system are far better than ever before and still fail to produce spectacular results.
        • hackyhacky 2mo ago
          > before the current university system, When was that? Harvard was founded in 1636.
      • mishellaneous 2mo ago
        where i come from, university admissions are determined exclusively by performance on an exam you take after high school. it's meritocratic, and the work it involves is much more sensible IMO: no leadership/well-roundedness/whatever theater, and in the ideal case, it only lasts 1 year. also, this grind is barely meritocratic. all these extracurricular activities show is you had a solid family supporting you. it's literally impossible for a poor kid to participate in this. they can pick up a book, OTOH. yes, it'll be harder, it'll take longer, and they won't do as well as the rich kids with test prep, but they are given the opportunity to try.
  • joezydeco 2mo ago
    Let me tell you about the scam of 'honors' classes in today's high schools. They not doing anything more introspective or challenging. It's the same classwork thrown at them faster and without as much teaching support. Just more to grind out. But when you don't understand something? You're smart, you'll figure it out. In return you get inflated GPAs that get you into better colleges. But if you can't figure it out on the first try? More stress. Interestingly, a lot of colleges now ignore the 'honors' weighted GPA and ask to see the unweighted score. If you have a teen entering high school, skip the honors track and help them do better in the normal track version of the class. See if your school offers dual-credit with a local community college or state university. Those transfer credits are WAY more valuable now (and cheaper!) than an AP score, with a lot less test stress.
    • estearum 2mo ago
      Yeah definitely. But "can you grind" is legitimate selection criterion for making it into the upper echelons. Not an ideal one, but it's not illegitimate.
      • Hizonner 2mo ago
        Legitimate in what way? It's obviously fucking stupid. Stupid criteria are not "legitimate". You'd do just as well rolling dice, and it would be more legitimate because it wouldn't be pretending to do something it doesn't.
        • JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
          > Legitimate in what way? Can you teach yourself, broadly. Out of all the filters we have in education, this one might be the most legitimate.
        • JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
          > Legitimate in what way? Can you teach yourself, broadly. Out of all the filters we have in education, this one might be the most legitimate because it maps pretty closely to lifelong curiosity and learning.
  • raddan 2mo ago
    > This is about gunning for the elite/upper echelons of society. Is that what it’s about? Keep in that the University of Michigan is a public university, explicitly founded to “provide the inhabitants of this state with the means of acquiring a thorough knowledge of the various branches of literature, science, and the arts.” There’s nothing about being elite in there at all. This is an institution that serves the public. I’m no stranger to long hours to achieve high status—I’m a professor. But I also started my journey at a public school and a public undergraduate institution. Many of my friends—all good and smart people but in many cases decidedly NOT elite-have leveraged their public education into satisfying careers. I, and my friends, would not have had our opportunities otherwise. I simply could not afford top private school. I don’t know what to think about this change exactly, but it’s worth pointing out that MIT has had this policy for first year students since 1968. MIT! Seems like UM can make this work if they are thoughtful about it.
    • estearum 2mo ago
      All universities are for the elites. I would love for that not to be the case, but the only reason admissions are this competitive is because there's competition for limited slots. And yes, certainly a (traditional) university education should not be required for having good career opportunities. IMO there's a need for a type of education that's vastly more scalable and still equips people with the beyond-secondary education they need to be productive in today's economy.
      • raddan 2mo ago
        I’m not sure where you get the idea that all universities are competitive because that is simply untrue. Many public universities are required by state legislatures to broadly admit students from their own state. California is a good example. You can see incoming class statistics here: https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/entering-class-statistics https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/entering-class-... Competitive universities are competitive. Sometimes that competiton is justified and sometimes it is unjustifiably based on pedigree. The program I attended before getting my PhD at a public university was at a well-known private university. But in terms of research productivity and impact, the public university was a MUCH better place to go to school. The PhD program was exceptionally competitive but its undergrad program was not. As a result, many undergrads who wandered through our lab door got a first-class research experience. I’m not going to pretend that pedigree doesn’t matter (to some people), but it is emphatically not the same thing as “a good preparation.” I took a couple math classes one summer at a low-tier state college. They were just as good as any math classes I took at any of the other places I went to school, public or private.
  • uncivilized 2mo ago
    Sad state that of affairs when comments like this appear and have affirmative replies. Shows how socially unaware and one-dimensional a Hacker News is.
    • estearum 2mo ago
      Competition continues to rise for limited higher education slots. The solution is not to get rid of the measurements we use to decide who should occupy those slots, it's to add more slots (and ideally, also create viable career/life opportunities that do not require a super-expensive education to begin with). Can you explain how that's "socially unaware" or "one-dimensional"?
      • uncivilized 2mo ago
        Well your comment had nothing to do with what you’ve written now. There’s a reason why it’s flagged now.
        • estearum 2mo ago
          It's flagged because there are crybabies in this thread lol
  • InsideOutSanta 2mo ago
    I don't think training people to burn out by 35 is a good plan for anyone involved.
  • porridgeraisin 2mo ago
    I'm all for not diluting anything but dropping first semester/year grades is unlikely to cause any major issue IMO. You can encourage lighter electives maybe and remove some elective requirements from later in the course. Already first year courses are fairly generic/light anyways. The purpose is simply to ramp up the competitiveness the same way school itself ramps up over the years. Pretending school momentum carries over to college is just stupid.
• SlightlyLeftPad 2mo ago
  It’s what the American corporate work culture expects though. She’ll be well acclimated.
• alistairSH 2mo ago
  Personally, I don't blame her if she checks out for a few weeks. Or a semester. Nor would I, but I'd also accept that she did so and failed a few classes. Just like I did in the 90s. Although in my case it wasn't burn-out, but system shock at actually having to try to get good grades (Fairfax County PS then UVA). Did that bombed first semester probably eliminate med school or an elite graduate program? Sure. But I probably wasn't cut out for either anyway. And it was a kick in the pants and got me to pay attention and work.
  • mrngld 2mo ago
    Yes, same here, for me high school was easy and I failed (or effectively failed, a D counted the same as an F) a couple classes right out of the gate. It was a lesson to myself that I never learned to study in high school and had to learn that skill ASAP. Michigan and its apologists here would rob these kids of real-world experience, reducing them to infants. And then we're all disappointed when these adults act like infants.
    • skillina 2mo ago
      Robbing the students of that experience would be to hand them an inflated letter grade. If anything this encourages instructors not to be gentle in grading first semester students. Students who eke out a low C grade will get the warning and can calibrate the level of effort needed (or switch fields) without the impact on grad school admissions or intern/new grad job search.
• alephnerd 2mo ago
  ^^^ This. 100% This. This kind of applicant is now treated as table stakes for programs like UMich, and acceptance rates for impacted majors like CS in top programs have dropped to single digits. It is ridiculously competitive to get into top programs now. I got into an Ivy in the late 2000s to early 2010s. With my stats from back then (13 APs all 4s and 5s, a 4.5+ GPA, varsity wrestling, JV XCountry, NHS, CSF, USAPHO, USAMO, Policy and LD debate, a 2200+ SAT, 35 ACT, 8 SAT Subject test), I would have been lucky to get into CS@UC Davis today and I absolutely wouldn't have gotten into my alma mater.
  • porridgeraisin 2mo ago
    Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? The GRE is barely an exam and it's not like you need to go to an IIT or do any olympiads to get into columbia or a good UC. Yes in principle you have fewer applicants than bachelors, but that would be compensated by the fact that indians and chinese students also apply no?
    • alephnerd 2mo ago
      > Then why is getting into M.S programs much easier? Because domestic undergrads applying to a research-oriented grad program are advised to apply directly to a PhD program. MS/MA programs are expected to remediate deficiencies at the undergrad level, and most undergrads will take 1st year MS/MA classes as part of their senior year doing a bachelors. Alternatively, the MS/MA is awarded if a PhD candidate failed Quals. Outside the US, the expected path is BA/BSc/BEng/BTech to MS/MA/MTech/MPhil to PhD. In the US, the expected path is SB/AB to PhD and MS/MA if you fail quals or are looking for a professional program to remediate coursework deficiencies.
      • porridgeraisin 2mo ago
        Makes sense
    • budman1 2mo ago
      M.S. Programs, non-thesis options, are cash cows for every university. Most of them are not ABET accredited. Class sizes are large. In defense of this practice, how do you handle students that finished undergraduate 5, 10, 15 years ago? If you do much gating, there are not enough students.
• mae3x 2mo ago
  This schedule is no different than my schedule from 30 years ago and I don't consider it problematic at all. You frame it as 15+ hour days by including all aspects of their day as "work" but no normal adult includes their workout time and their social engagements as part of their work day. Time spent in sports is fun, not work. If it is work, then quit. Time spent in gym class and lunch is not work. Remove all that bloat from your framing and it is a very reasonable workload.
  • freefaler 2mo ago
    Indeed. At uni, starting in my second year, I worked as a programmer (no remote work, office at 1hr commute from uni dorm) on top of my studies. It was hard, but doable. My major was applied math, so the CS part was the easier bit, but the math, especially Analysis, Numerical Methods, Linear Algebra, and Analytic Geometry they kicked my butt. We also had a really bad prof for the Math Logic class and no textbook, only lecture notes and his lectures were unstructured shit :( The biggest problem wasn't the workload itself, but how inefficient learning was back then. It was the early days of the Internet, no coursera, no Google indexed uni sites, no LLMs, no online tutors. I only had a mediocre textbook and some notes I borrowed from friends when I couldn't attend lectures or labs. It took ages. I’d burn hours trying to parse two paragraphs in the textbook, only to ask mates who didn't understand it either. Now, we have an incredible amount of information & tech at our fingertips: LLMs, Google NotebookLM, online tutors, dozens of textbooks, and sites like Anna's Archive packed with high-quality "free" material. With all this technology, the time it takes to understand, prepare, and master a topic is a fraction of what it used to be. It still takes work and discipline, but man... you can feed textbooks into an LLM and use targeted prompts to debug your exact knowledge gaps on the practice test you get from the LLM. So I reckon it's easier now than before, simply because learning can be done so much more efficiently. After all these years, I still remember the hardest classes and the most stringent professors with great affection - even though I hated those bastards back then. My Group Theory prof once invalidated a definition I wrote because of a single missing word. At the time, I thought it was an injustice, but later I realized that word was crucial. University is where young people must face hard work and reality, because it teaches them what true meritocracy is. It should be hard, it's the same way a gym workout should be hard or it’s ineffective.
• bradfa 2mo ago
  Are normal adults not "working" in a similar way to your kid for 15+ hours per weekday? Comparable adult parent things would be up at 6am, prep kids for school day, in the office by 8am, 8 hours of work plus a lunch, departing the office around 5pm, transporting kids to/from some activities, dinner, helping kids with homework, somehow fit in regular shopping needs (food, essentials, etc), maybe some volunteering or hobby things, if lucky in bed by 10pm, and we're easily at 15 hours of "work" on a weekday. Yes, it's a lot.
  • alephnerd 2mo ago
    Naw. Adult life is so much easier with regards to competitive pressure compared to getting into a good college. The real world is Pass/Fail, much to the chagrin of plenty of HNers.
    • joezydeco 2mo ago
      And we shouldn't expect adult/parent level of work out a 16/17 year-old. There's no time left any more to be a kid.
      • bradfa 2mo ago
        Your comment specifically compared it to the normal adult, my point is the normal adult who is a parent is very likely doing even more than your example of your kid. Even for adults who aren't in the elite high earner category, heck people who make less money are likely working even more hours per day just to make ends meet.
        • Broken_Hippo 2mo ago
          How, exactly, are they working more? How many low-paying jobs offer overtime, if they are full time at all? Any clue how many jobs won't let you work a part-time job or won't work around another job? Can't exactly work for Uber if you can't afford a decent enough car. And this is assuming you have older children that don't need childcare. The fact is that they aren't working extra, not for a job anyway. The extra work comes in the time making dried beans instead of buying canned, in repairing stuff poorly, in shopping around for a doctor that takes the state health insurance or an affordable option if you have none at all, in taking busses (if they are available), and other unpaid things. Your child will be lucky to afford the activities that gets them a 'good' education, especially if they have to work.
• iamnothere 2mo ago
  We need to normalize a gap year, or at least a gap semester. Young adults need a break after the pressure of graduation and college admissions, and whether it’s work or travel, some perspective helps ground the college experience and make it a choice instead of an obligation. In my experience, many freshmen treated their first year as a gap year anyways, especially if they took difficult senior classes. First year classes aren’t always as rigorous as good AP classes (depending on both the high school and the university), so you can skip or cram while partying.
  • deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  • hirvi74 2mo ago
    I wish the US had mandatory conscription. Not necessarily military conscription, but kind of like the German model where you either do military service or public service (if I remember correctly). I sure could have used the maturity, the money, and the time when I was younger. I learned the hard way that attending college when you have no idea what you want to do only delays your graduation date (major change absolutely fucked me).
    • ktallett 2mo ago
      The issue is that these conscriptions are rarely for the benefit of the person and are usually for the benefit of the nation. They are usually cheap labour or just bodies to put where you need a physical presence but no real skill. If the conscription paid the appropriate wage for the role, absolutely that would be a great idea and help those who were coming out of difficult situations such as foster and poor home life too.
      • hirvi74 2mo ago
        > The issue is that these conscriptions are rarely for the benefit of the person Issue? That's the best part. > They are usually cheap labour or just bodies to put where you need a physical presence but no real skill. That rhymes with many jobs and services people perform. > If the conscription paid the appropriate wage for the role, absolutely that would be a great idea and help those who were coming out of difficult situations such as foster and poor home life too. That would be one contingency, yes. In my fantasy, there would also be free healthcare and public, secondary education for any and all the performed military or civil service. In fact, I would even advocate for fast-tracking immigration and citizenship in a similar manner. My state sort of has a similar policy. Any adult 18 years or older without a secondary education degree can attend community college for free. However, some n number of hours of mandatory community service is required every semester in order to receive the benefit.
• TiredOfLife 2mo ago
  That is the same schedule people had 60 years ago
• b0rtb0rt 2mo ago
  your kid could also not do any of those things and still go to college(or not) and have a happy fulfilling life
• rayiner 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • redserk 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    • deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
  • pavel_lishin 2mo ago
    Spiders Georg, etc.
• ackbar03 2mo ago
  Sorry if this seems naive but do students in America actually work that hard these days? Modern television and social media seem to suggest they are all on drugs and doing God knows what
  • TimDotC 2mo ago
    This is fairly representative experience for high achieving students. When I was in high school, I was typically up at 6:30 AM to get to my 7:00 AM AP class. Classes can end anywhere from 3-4 pm, depending on your course work. After school clubs and activities ranged from commitment. But we were under the assumption that it mattered a lot for college admissions, so many of us participated in 2-3. Once you got home, you had a considerably amount of homework from each class. If you were prepping for standardized exams, you probably dedicated some time to study that as well. Overall, I felt the amount of time spent working in high school was taxing. But also it worked out for me - went to a good college and got a good job and life.
    • VeninVidiaVicii 2mo ago
      Kids shouldn’t be aiming for well-rounded at all; that’s a classic misread of what selections committees are looking for. Our PhD selections chair was explicit about wanting a well-rounded class full of students with great depth. Frankly reading about students with six hobbies and after school activities and volunteering is exhausting. I can’t emphasize this enough: that kind of grind is wasteful, and makes you look just like everyone else.
  • armchairhacker 2mo ago
    I remember waking around 7am and leaving school around 3pm, then no more than on average ~2 hours of extracurriculars and ~2 hours of homework. I think the quantity was reasonable, except too much busywork, I wish I could replace it with subjects I was passionate about (i.e. tech). I also had the entire summer between senior year and college to decompress. Nowadays I hear that most public schools are giving less work. With all due respect, I believe GP is an anomaly and/or it wasn't the school, but their own pressure.
  • 2mo ago
• mc32 2mo ago
  Is she typical or atypical of the kids having issues? My bet is the kids having issues are ones that were less academically inclined. Perhaps they were misled throughout primary education (trophies for everyone, equality of results rather than opportunity, dumbed down mathematics, skipping physics as a req., etc.) I don’t think kids like yours are having issues but rather kids who didn’t apply themselves academically. Basically A or even B grades cannot be an average grade. C or 2.0 would be the expected average but of course this hasn’t been close to true since GWB introduced his idiotic policy. It’s no secret, if you let kids (or people) slack, 80 to 90% will slack off. 10 to 20% will endure out of principle or habit.
• elmer2 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • enragedcacti 2mo ago
    So as a college freshman you were closely monitoring the ethnic backgrounds and high school GPAs of your fellow classmates?
  • bakies 2mo ago
    Check your racism guy
    • steve-atx-7600 2mo ago
      It isn’t racist to acknowledge that some schools select students based on factors other than demonstrated aptitude. In the last ten years it was a fad in the US to not require SAT scores until folks realized this was dumb and reversed course.
      • bakies 2mo ago
        You can select by aptitude and also not select only white people. You're saying you have to lower the bar for people that aren't white. That's the racist part. And the whole DEI culture war bullshit in politics. There's no bar lowering involved.
  • doom2 2mo ago
    > It's for students that have had their grades inflated in High school and got into the university based on their ethnic background, instead of merit/points on the SAT. Why only students who got in based on ethnicity? What about students who only got in because their parents are wealthy or alumni? Or students who get in because of athletics but wouldn't otherwise meet academic admissions criteria? I don't know why there's all this focus (and pushback) on race based admissions when there are multiple other meritless avenues for students to get into college. That people focus on eliminating one and not the others is very telling.
• kalcode 2mo ago
  A lot of this is just inflicted by parent culture and anxiety. Unless your kid applying to an elite school, most college/university accept between 60-80% of their applicants. If they have decent GPA. We are making the kids endure that out of fear of their college, but stats don't back up the grind they make the kids do.
  • michaelbuckbee 2mo ago
    Parent of a middle and a high schooler and we try very hard to not pressure the kids, but a lot of it is coming from their peers and the school.
• Thlom 2mo ago
  Did she ever have time to just go outside and hang out with friends?
  • geodel 2mo ago
    You are looking to "destroy kid's future" with such heresies like hanging out with friends. What's next? not going to school when one is sick?
• Joker_vD 2mo ago
  > sports practice until 5:00. Gotta have that activity on your college application, not counting other volunteering and clubs in the open spaces. Still baffles me why is that even a thing that's considered at the colleges. I thought it was just a relic of Soviet past but no, apparently it exists in the US and other first world countries as well for some strange reason.
  • tdeck 2mo ago
    I have heard that it began to try to keep certain ethnic groups out of university and continued because sports bring in scholarship and (for D1 schools) sponsor money.
    • InitialLastName 2mo ago
      Not just ethnic groups. Schools mostly can't say "we only want rich people" but they definitely want to prefer students who will contribute to the donation revenue stream either themselves or through their parents. Signals like "doesn't have a job to take up their time in high school" and "parents can afford (and have the free time to enable) expensive, time-consuming activities" are really good proxies for that.
      • tdeck 2mo ago
        I knew someone who got into a good school on a crew (rowing) scholarship. I remember thinking "wait doesn't almost everyone who rows crew go to a wealthy private school?"
      • recursivecaveat 2mo ago
        Yes, absolutely. The kids who can assemble a resume of primo extra-ciriculars and volunteer experience are the ones from wealthy and well-connected families. Even the kids who can write the best essays about their troubled upbringings are the ones with access to lots of coaching lol. If they just have to be smart and show up for their government mandated 7 hours of classes, the poor kids can keep up. They can't keep up with another 5 hours of homework and resume-sweeteners every day.
• firesteelrain 2mo ago
  This must be a State thing. > she was up at 6:30am, in AP classes by 7:30am (three more to go during the day). Classes were done by 3:00, then sports practice until 5:00. In other States, high school starts later like 8:45/9am. You can take classes online and start school later if you want or do dual enrollment and skip later periods. > Gotta have that activity on your college application, not counting other volunteering and clubs in the open spaces. Mine worked and were in clubs. Kids are remarkably resilient. In some States, work time counts in lieu of volunteer time. > Then you have test prep (APs and the ACT/SAT), college applications, writing essays and scholarship applications, college tours, sorting decisions, financial aid applications, etc etc etc. And now her college already has a few hours of orientation videos stacked up for her to watch before she moves in. This sounds like a lot of undue pressure. UCF didn’t make you do that. ACT or SAT works and you have a couple years to do it. Not all at once in Senior year and you usually can composite your score across the highest tests.
  • danilafe 2mo ago
    7:30 is consistent with my experience in Oregon. Work does not count in lieu of volunteer time if you're writing an essay about your involvement with the community. I don't think schools NEED both ACT or SAT but you only have so many shots and may have an affinity for one or the other, so people like to take both.
    • firesteelrain 2mo ago
      Okay it sounds definitely regional/State specific. Some states are more flexible such as counting work hours towards volunteer hours and allowing ACT/SAT/alternatives.
  • SkiFire13 2mo ago
    > Kids are remarkably resilient People are remarkably resilient in general. But if chinese workers manage to survive a 996 does that make it good?
    • cindyllm 2mo ago
• freeopinion 2mo ago
  Just to present another reality... a lot of kids coast through high school academically. They sleep through classes or play video games on their school-provided laptops, or play on their phones all day. They know about "minimum-F" policies where submitting 0 work earns them 50%. And they don't really care about getting Ds. Then some community support program assigns them a counselor who drags them over some finish line to get them admitted to a community college. No, this isn't every high school student. But there are more people in the group I describe than there are in the group you describe. Here's my point: There is a lot of ground between the two extremes. And both ends of the spectrum are making it into college of some sort. So it you think your child is under too much stress from taking seven AP classes, drop four of them. If they are overwhelmed by tennis practice, ... maybe recognize that removing all friction from a person's life is not necessarily a good thing. Work together to build coping skills. But no child has to be an Olympic medalist neurosurgeon senator CEO all at the same time. Who is "forcing" that on high school students? You? There is plenty of room for people with 3.2 GPAs and only two AP classes when they graduate. Frankly, with some family support, it is not that hard to have a 3.8 GPA for 60+% of students. But I've seen high school valedictorians with 3.9 college GPAs graduate and struggle to find a white collar job. What is the plan for that from U Mich?
  • SiempreViernes 2mo ago
    When you are contrasting a hypothetical example against an anecdotal example, it is polite to provide some sort of evidence your hypothetical example actually exists.
  • red-iron-pine 2mo ago
    > But I've seen high school valedictorians with 3.9 college GPAs graduate and struggle to find a white collar job. What is the plan for that from U Mich? they've optimized for a highly stratified educational environment. The real world don't work like that. Unless you stay in academia no one cares about your GPA 2 years after you leave.
• renegade-otter 2mo ago
  I am still traumatizes from high school after almost 30 years. I had no extra-curricular activities but I had to travel far for the school of choice (I was an ESL student). Waking up at 5:45, 90 minute travel one way, then 8-9 periods ending at around 5PM. Get home at 7 and then do homework. Then the never-ending pressure of midterms, finals, and regents exams.
• basisword 2mo ago
  That blows my mind. It seems so unnecessary. It also doesn't seem to work given where the US ranks globally in education. Is the problem what the admission process? In the UK, even to get into the most prestigious universities you do the same exams as everyone else, maybe a little extra-curricular stuff, and interview with the university. The amount of studying in the evening is no different than anyone else trying to get a good grade, and there are certainly no extra classes you can take (never mind starting the schooldays before the normal time).
  • vel0city 2mo ago
    > It also doesn't seem to work given where the US ranks globally in education. This is true because this isn't necessarily "the norm". Its very common to have this kind of life, but there are also a ton of kids who aren't as focused on their academics, who don't take AP classes, who aren't involved in clubs and sports. Only a little over a third of students take any AP exams, and only a bit over half of those end up taking multiple AP exams.
• KPGv2 2mo ago
  If the sports and clubs are stressful, your kid should find other activities. I did everything you mentioned in the nineties and aughts (my sport was year round and coach expected us to travel on our own dime to tournaments that lasted the entire weekend at least four times in the summer, and during the school year I was out of town most Sat-Sun at tournaments, which take way more time than the couple hours a volleyball game lasts or whatever), and volunteer activities that lasted until 10pm for a few week stretches a few times a year. I had a blast doing things I loved. Counting travel, 30+ hours a week of sports. School from 6:30 to 3:30 (because I took an extra AP physics class that happened before school officially started). I acted in community theatre. I did martial arts. I quit tennis to teach acting for the YMCA my senior year. Why doesn't your kid love the sport she plays? Why doesn't she love the volunteer activities? Those are meant to be FUN. Like, that's why the colleges want them: to see why she's an interesting person, not a time-management robot. They can tell these things, so stop gaming the system ad find a hobby she'll be so obsessed with that she'll write a college entrance essay all about how it made her a more interesting person. There is no adcom in the world that is trying to find a selfless 17yo who does drudgery because it's expected of them. They're trying to find people who LOVE building for Habitat, who want to be chefs and serve at a soup kitchen, who LOVE God and ran tech support during COVID for their church livestream, etc.
  • smcg 2mo ago
    I'm not sure that you understand how competitive, say, youth sports are. It's not seen as purely recreation, it is seen as a necessary pillar of advancement. Parents don't spend all this time and money sending their kids on travel teams for no reason.
    • Synthetic7346 2mo ago
      I did not grow up in the US. I assume it was different in the 90s?
• Aurornis 2mo ago
  > When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA and get into a good college, My neighborhood and social circle have a number of high school age children, some aiming for high ranking universities. None of them have these grueling 15 hour day schedules you’re describing. I don’t even know of a high school around me that starts at 7:30AM. What universities are you targeting with such an extreme schedule? There are some parallels here to the people who say that everyone in tech is working 80 hour weeks: If you get pulled into one of these bubbles you are surrounded by others doing the same thing and it starts to feel like everyone is doing it. You assume everyone, everywhere is having the same experience. The people outside the bubble are left puzzled by these descriptions.
  • geodel 2mo ago
    I think magnet school and/or outside school /rec-league sports can easily bring that 15h number. Overall I think you are right it is indeed bubble and once one is in, it is difficult to see not everyone is doing that. I have a friend in town both husband, wife work from home and extremely busy with their elementary/middle school kids school/activities that I haven't seen him in years. Being out of their bubble I only know whats happening but don't get to be tutored in how all these activities are essential. And even rare back out once in a while can be serious digression that affects child's future.
  • mylies43 2mo ago
    For the 7.30 start, its possible its a 0 period class( class before school starts, what a blast these were) and they start earlier then the rest of the student body.
    • throwway120385 2mo ago
      At my high school that was the normal start time for all of our classes, which were 90 minutes. Most of us had to be at the bus about 45 minutes to an hour before start because many of us came from more rural areas with acreage between roads.
  • jorts 2mo ago
• rpdillon 2mo ago
  Same with my kids. At the bus stop by 6:30am, out doing sports and extra-curriculars until 8pm, then dinner+homework until 11pm or so, rinse and repeat.
• PyWoody 2mo ago
  No one is forcing them to do this. This is all self-incflicted.
  • smcg 2mo ago
    The market demands it.
• andsoitis 2mo ago
  > When you force high school kids to work days that are significantly longer than a normal adult to achieve a good GPA Is it possible that the kids who have to study very very long hours to get a GPA decent enough to get into college are just not that sharp?
  • oarla 2mo ago
    If it’s the case, what’s wrong with that? Many have had to do that to get better gpa and college prospects.
    • andsoitis 2mo ago
      Nothing wrong. The person I responded to seemed to suggest there’s something wrong with the system when it might simply be a gap that the child has to close.
• SubmarineClub 2mo ago
  Ok? I did the whole APs, sports, volunteering thing too, and managed to do just fine in college. Kids today are just so fucking soft.
• boogieknite 2mo ago
  its truly crazy. game days for sports take even more time lucky she has you who considers this. speaking from experience: think about trying to handle that with parents who dont have time management skills
• atniomn 2mo ago
  I'm 32. In my senior year of high school, I woke up at 5:30 AM, my first class (zero hour) was at 6:30 AM, regular school started at 7:35 AM. school let out at 2:30 PM. I had extracurriculars until 6:00 PM most days. Go home, eat dinner while studying, go to bed at 11:00 PM. I took 8 AP classes and had straight A's. 5 on every test. strong ACT. I attended a prestigious land grant university, like Michigan, and I was totally prepared and performed very strongly right out of the gate. I was competitive with elite students who had attended the most prestigious high schools both in the United States and internationally. Today, I'm an extremely well compensated engineer. My household income is top 1%. My career is gratifying. I have a rich social life and a loving wife and child. If your children are operating at this caliber, and they're able to sustain this level of effort, they're going to go places, no matter what they chose to do. You are rewarded for this effort.
  • semiquaver 2mo ago
    Thanks for posting this. As someone with ambitious kids that will be in HS soon, this thread and the general doom mood on this topic has been worsening my hypertension…
  • jansport123 2mo ago
    I never studied hard in high school, had one AP, went to a mid tier university and got mostly C's and i also have a household income in the top 1%, a gratifying job and a loving family. I did what i wanted most of my life - i would rather program stuff than apply myself in school and that yielded rewards. I think the broader point is if someone's child wanted to apply themselves to be excellent, then i think that is quite alright but we start getting into trouble when parents are forcing their children or scaring them with "if you don't do this, your life is over" type advice.
    • dzonga 2mo ago
      glad life has no formula or one right answer. there's many paths to success.
  • nonameiguess 2mo ago
• moralestapia 2mo ago
  Cool story, but I also went to High School and Uni and it was not even close to that, and I also have cousins that go to Uni now and kids that will go to high school soon and it is not even close to that. Perhaps I should disregard my own lived experience and substitute it for what this comment on the (dead and AI-generated) internet is telling me to. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• mark336 2mo ago
  Nah its the movies like Christopher Nolans the Odyssey
• yieldcrv 2mo ago
  This path isnt necessary The bar is only high for straight out of high school admissions If you have intention and a cool life story, no crime record, and evidence of a support system, and an ability to pay, universities would love to have that on campus So forget the grueling stuff and contrived extracurriculars and just graduate, gain some life experiences - gap year, apprenticeship, endeavor - and then apply to colleges
• sidewndr46 2mo ago
  If we're measuring this by hours, I had to get up at 4:45 AM to get to middle school. I didn't get home until around 4:30 PM. That's 12 hours a day just to attend middle school. I didn't get any of the advantages of AP classes, sport classes, volunteering, or clubs.