4 ms·

>He's also making it difficult/impossible for people without work visas to obtain auto loans [...] >They're banging the national security drum to make it unliv

by gruez 2mo ago

>He's also making it difficult/impossible for people without work visas to obtain auto loans [...] >They're banging the national security drum to make it unlivable here for some. But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? As for the people who are supposed to be here, but are collateral damage (ie. "which is destroying the used car market in latino communities") should we have sympathy for people in such situations? If a local casino is laundering money for drug cartels, but that casino funds the community because it employs workers, should we be against the FBI coming in and busting the casino? What if it's more benign than drug cartels, like run of the mill securities fraud?

BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago
Everything else aside, > "people without work visas" is not the same legal category as > "they're not supposed to be here"
- mdp2021 2mo ago
  People with tourist visas I expect fully entitled and able to get car loans... (Edit: maybe I am misunderstanding the whole thing: is it "loaning cars" or is it "loaning the money to buy cars"?)
  - BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago
    A car loan is usually loaning money for the purpose of buying a car, not loaning a car.
  - InitialLastName 2mo ago
    In the US, we usually refer to "paying someone to borrow a car" as a car "rental" and "borrowing money to finance a car purchase" as a car "loan".
  - Nicook 2mo ago
    getting a long term loan to buy a car sounds like it would signal intention to be more than a tourist.
    - mdp2021 2mo ago
      As the edit in the post tells you, I initially interpreted «auto loans» as "car rentals" - "lending an auto".
- gruez 2mo ago
  1. So you'd agree that AI datecenter with 100 (or whatever) jet turbines merely "lacks a permit" rather than "not supposed to be there"? 2. Practically speaking, how many people lack a work visa (or similar documentation), but are supposed to be here?
  - BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago
    Anecdotally speaking, I've personally lived in multiple countries on multi-year-long temporary resident visas without the right to work, because getting the right to work is a separate process from being allowed to be somewhere. So have family members. And in case it makes a difference, which it might, one of those countries was the US. In fact, did you know, in Canada it doesn't count as work for visa purposes if you work over the internet for a foreign company and get paid into a foreign bank account and don't compete professionally with local interests? (This is a free hot tip for anyone wanting to live in Canada. It might be true in some other places too, but I don't know.)
    - gruez 2mo ago
      >Anecdotally speaking, I've personally lived in multiple countries on multi-year-long temporary resident visas without the right to work, because getting the right to work is a separate process from being allowed to be somewhere. So have family members. And in case it makes a difference, which it might, one of those countries was the US. Usually those long term visas (eg. student visas, I guess) require some sort of extra vetting to acquire (ie. they're not the tourist visas that get auto-issued at the border), and therefore are unlikely to be possessed by "people who aren't supposed to be here", so as a practical matter I agree they should be accepted in place of a "work visa".
    - triceratops 2mo ago
      > in Canada it doesn't count as work for visa purposes if you work over the internet for a foreign company and get paid into a foreign bank account and don't compete professionally with local interests? Source? If you can do that, a Canadian could too. So you're directly competing with "local interests".
MSFT_Edging 2mo ago
Whether or not they're "supposed" to be here, they've been an integral part of the US economy for decades. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
- asdff 2mo ago
  Yeah, cat is out of the bag now. Something like 1/10 workers in California are undocumented and you can be sure it is heavily biased for certain industries. Imagine the implications of some industry losing lets say half its workforce overnight. That would be like a COVID level shock in output and in all likelihood the industry would collapse vs somehow pull needed labor in a quick amount of time, and from where exactly, who knows? National unemployment rate is only 4% not like there is much spare labor capacity.
  - MSFT_Edging 2mo ago
    And I'm sure the same folks complaining about undocumented laborers would be equally upset when their fruit, berries, and nuts double and triple in price as they bring in domestic labor. Or we'd just lose several domestic agriculture industries overnight.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
BobbyJo 2mo ago
If we want to stop illegal immigration, "not getting a car loan" and "harder to move money across the border" feel like the most humane ways to slow it down. Plus, the drug trade coming in from Mexico is, in fact, a huge problem, not just for the US, but for Mexico itself. Mexico is run by cartels specifically because of how much money is made off selling drugs to Americans. This isn't some non-existent problem they are using as cover.
- RunSet 2mo ago
  > If we want to stop illegal immigration, "not getting a car loan" and "harder to move money across the border" feel like the most humane ways to slow it down. I can think of a more humane way: Prosecuting the employers who break the law by hiring undocumented workers. The prospect of employment is what draws migrants here in the first place.
  - Lord-Jobo 2mo ago
    It’s the only effective method and they basically refuse to do it. Which is a clear sign: the goal is not to “effectively and efficiently stop illegal immigration”. It’s to “cruelly and brutally punish illegal immigrants”. You will see some overlap between those two, but not much. Which is why our Stephen Miller executive policy is the way it is right now.
    - soco 2mo ago
      I think it's rather, keep those people around as useful scapegoats for empowering whatever next unpopular policy the oligarchy needs enacted to round up their next trillion.
  - gruez 2mo ago
    >Prosecuting the employers who break the law by hiring undocumented workers. Don't employers already have to check for authorization to work?
    - xboxnolifes 2mo ago
alistairSH 2mo ago
But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things.
- bulbar 2mo ago
  I mean it makes sense. Let them come and work illegally, which is much cheaper and enables proper exploitation and then blame them for all kind of things and frame them as the bad guys that exploit the society.
  - soco 2mo ago
    I see lots of finger pointing at the workers without permits, but zero, and I mean really ZERO finger pointing at their employers. So basically it's totally fine and dandy to exploit poor people, but a crime to be poor people. All the rest is technicalities. In Europe it's the other way around: the businesses employing folks with no right to work get fined to death, with no direct repercussions on the workers (except they lose that income, which is another discussion)
    - tadfisher 2mo ago
      Oh, there is such a rich history of exploiting the underprivileged in the US. The more interesting bits lately center around a special visa for agricultural migrant workers, called the H2-A, which offers some basic worker protections (a minimum wage indexed to inflation, freedom to leave the farm, etc) so the employers can continue to pay low wages for long hours, keeping food prices low and profits high. Except the farm businesses complained, and the Trump Department of Labor rolled back a bunch of the protections. For example, apparently a sticking point was the requirement that vehicles transporting visa holders have seatbelts for all occupants, so that was eliminated. Another was the requirement that workers be allowed to have guests visit them on employer-provided housing; an often-cited example is worship services provided by a priest. Also rolled back, too onerous. This is all being stressed at historically high levels as immigration crackdowns continue. Essentially, food production in border states is increasingly forced to go through this visa program that has terrible oversight and protections that I consider below-par. It's not a sexy issue to yell about with a megaphone though.
gamblor956 2mo ago
Elon Musk and Melania Trump both overstayed their visas and aren't supposed to be here. Elon is known to have violated the terms of his visa, which under the current administration's theory of immigration renders his citizenship void and requires him to be banned from the U.S. for at least 10 years. Nobody knows what Melania was doing between the time she arrived and the time she met Trump. She only had a handful of photoshoots shortly after she arrived, and then nothing for 3-4 years until she met Trump at a social event.
cyanydeez 2mo ago
oh man, would you like the justice department to help you with affordability, boy have I got news for you, there's millions of companies stealing wages monthly; there's thousands of fraudulent corporations, including ones run directly by people in power, siphoning your hard working tax dollars. Boy, if you really cared about justice and economics, you'd be in a completely different ballpark.

by gruez 2mo ago

BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago

Everything else aside, > "people without work visas" is not the same legal category as > "they're not supposed to be here"

mdp2021 2mo ago
People with tourist visas I expect fully entitled and able to get car loans... (Edit: maybe I am misunderstanding the whole thing: is it "loaning cars" or is it "loaning the money to buy cars"?)
- BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago
  A car loan is usually loaning money for the purpose of buying a car, not loaning a car.
- InitialLastName 2mo ago
  In the US, we usually refer to "paying someone to borrow a car" as a car "rental" and "borrowing money to finance a car purchase" as a car "loan".
- Nicook 2mo ago
  getting a long term loan to buy a car sounds like it would signal intention to be more than a tourist.
  - mdp2021 2mo ago
    As the edit in the post tells you, I initially interpreted «auto loans» as "car rentals" - "lending an auto".
gruez 2mo ago
1. So you'd agree that AI datecenter with 100 (or whatever) jet turbines merely "lacks a permit" rather than "not supposed to be there"? 2. Practically speaking, how many people lack a work visa (or similar documentation), but are supposed to be here?
- BugsJustFindMe 2mo ago
  Anecdotally speaking, I've personally lived in multiple countries on multi-year-long temporary resident visas without the right to work, because getting the right to work is a separate process from being allowed to be somewhere. So have family members. And in case it makes a difference, which it might, one of those countries was the US. In fact, did you know, in Canada it doesn't count as work for visa purposes if you work over the internet for a foreign company and get paid into a foreign bank account and don't compete professionally with local interests? (This is a free hot tip for anyone wanting to live in Canada. It might be true in some other places too, but I don't know.)
  - gruez 2mo ago
    >Anecdotally speaking, I've personally lived in multiple countries on multi-year-long temporary resident visas without the right to work, because getting the right to work is a separate process from being allowed to be somewhere. So have family members. And in case it makes a difference, which it might, one of those countries was the US. Usually those long term visas (eg. student visas, I guess) require some sort of extra vetting to acquire (ie. they're not the tourist visas that get auto-issued at the border), and therefore are unlikely to be possessed by "people who aren't supposed to be here", so as a practical matter I agree they should be accepted in place of a "work visa".
  - triceratops 2mo ago
    > in Canada it doesn't count as work for visa purposes if you work over the internet for a foreign company and get paid into a foreign bank account and don't compete professionally with local interests? Source? If you can do that, a Canadian could too. So you're directly competing with "local interests".

MSFT_Edging 2mo ago

Whether or not they're "supposed" to be here, they've been an integral part of the US economy for decades. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

asdff 2mo ago
Yeah, cat is out of the bag now. Something like 1/10 workers in California are undocumented and you can be sure it is heavily biased for certain industries. Imagine the implications of some industry losing lets say half its workforce overnight. That would be like a COVID level shock in output and in all likelihood the industry would collapse vs somehow pull needed labor in a quick amount of time, and from where exactly, who knows? National unemployment rate is only 4% not like there is much spare labor capacity.
- MSFT_Edging 2mo ago
  And I'm sure the same folks complaining about undocumented laborers would be equally upset when their fruit, berries, and nuts double and triple in price as they bring in domestic labor. Or we'd just lose several domestic agriculture industries overnight.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]

BobbyJo 2mo ago

If we want to stop illegal immigration, "not getting a car loan" and "harder to move money across the border" feel like the most humane ways to slow it down. Plus, the drug trade coming in from Mexico is, in fact, a huge problem, not just for the US, but for Mexico itself. Mexico is run by cartels specifically because of how much money is made off selling drugs to Americans. This isn't some non-existent problem they are using as cover.

RunSet 2mo ago
> If we want to stop illegal immigration, "not getting a car loan" and "harder to move money across the border" feel like the most humane ways to slow it down. I can think of a more humane way: Prosecuting the employers who break the law by hiring undocumented workers. The prospect of employment is what draws migrants here in the first place.
- Lord-Jobo 2mo ago
  It’s the only effective method and they basically refuse to do it. Which is a clear sign: the goal is not to “effectively and efficiently stop illegal immigration”. It’s to “cruelly and brutally punish illegal immigrants”. You will see some overlap between those two, but not much. Which is why our Stephen Miller executive policy is the way it is right now.
  - soco 2mo ago
    I think it's rather, keep those people around as useful scapegoats for empowering whatever next unpopular policy the oligarchy needs enacted to round up their next trillion.
- gruez 2mo ago
  >Prosecuting the employers who break the law by hiring undocumented workers. Don't employers already have to check for authorization to work?
  - xboxnolifes 2mo ago

alistairSH 2mo ago

But they're not supposed to be here in the first place? Like any other system, the purpose is what the system actually does. Especially a system that's been around for decades. We let them in, so they can work our fields and process our meat and whatever else. We shouldn't be surprised they want to buy cars, own business, and do other completely normal things.

bulbar 2mo ago
I mean it makes sense. Let them come and work illegally, which is much cheaper and enables proper exploitation and then blame them for all kind of things and frame them as the bad guys that exploit the society.
- soco 2mo ago
  I see lots of finger pointing at the workers without permits, but zero, and I mean really ZERO finger pointing at their employers. So basically it's totally fine and dandy to exploit poor people, but a crime to be poor people. All the rest is technicalities. In Europe it's the other way around: the businesses employing folks with no right to work get fined to death, with no direct repercussions on the workers (except they lose that income, which is another discussion)
  - tadfisher 2mo ago
    Oh, there is such a rich history of exploiting the underprivileged in the US. The more interesting bits lately center around a special visa for agricultural migrant workers, called the H2-A, which offers some basic worker protections (a minimum wage indexed to inflation, freedom to leave the farm, etc) so the employers can continue to pay low wages for long hours, keeping food prices low and profits high. Except the farm businesses complained, and the Trump Department of Labor rolled back a bunch of the protections. For example, apparently a sticking point was the requirement that vehicles transporting visa holders have seatbelts for all occupants, so that was eliminated. Another was the requirement that workers be allowed to have guests visit them on employer-provided housing; an often-cited example is worship services provided by a priest. Also rolled back, too onerous. This is all being stressed at historically high levels as immigration crackdowns continue. Essentially, food production in border states is increasingly forced to go through this visa program that has terrible oversight and protections that I consider below-par. It's not a sexy issue to yell about with a megaphone though.

gamblor956 2mo ago

Elon Musk and Melania Trump both overstayed their visas and aren't supposed to be here. Elon is known to have violated the terms of his visa, which under the current administration's theory of immigration renders his citizenship void and requires him to be banned from the U.S. for at least 10 years. Nobody knows what Melania was doing between the time she arrived and the time she met Trump. She only had a handful of photoshoots shortly after she arrived, and then nothing for 3-4 years until she met Trump at a social event.

cyanydeez 2mo ago

oh man, would you like the justice department to help you with affordability, boy have I got news for you, there's millions of companies stealing wages monthly; there's thousands of fraudulent corporations, including ones run directly by people in power, siphoning your hard working tax dollars. Boy, if you really cared about justice and economics, you'd be in a completely different ballpark.