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I did the remote thing before Covid and rejected it for many of the same reasons. Then Covid happened and so many people got to experience it and loved it. But

I did the remote thing before Covid and rejected it for many of the same reasons. Then Covid happened and so many people got to experience it and loved it. But I still hated it while I was forced to. Every time I told anyone that I personally didn’t like working from home, and was excited about the return to office that would inevitably come, I got SHOUTED at. Absolutely flayed for not being 110% in support of this thing that made their lives worth living or whatever. When it first happened I thought it was a weird interpersonal conflict situation. Maybe I had broached it wrong. But it kept happening! So many people were so upset when megacorp said they had to return or find other employment. But I’m an extrovert and working from home was suffocating.

ajkjk 2mo ago
Same. HN comments would (maybe still do) accuse you of astroturfing if you said you preferred an office. Not that much stock should be put in strangers accusing you, but, it was telling how ignorant it was.
- mh- 2mo ago
  I believe "LLMs are useful"* is the current zeitgeist's version of "Working from the office has upsides", in terms of attracting astroturfing accusations over expressing an opinion held by many. * simplifying, of course.
  - titanomachy 2mo ago
    [flagged]
  - ajkjk 2mo ago
    I agree, somewhat, but that is a much more evidence-backed stance---they're obviously useful in a sense; the debate is over what worldview / posture one ought to adopt as a result of that. Whereas the RTO stuff was a debate between an entirely emotionally-motivated argument, "I don't want to work in an office therefore I must deny that anyone wants to in order to prevent the idea from getting airtime", versus the obvious reality that there are a range of stances on the subject.
ang_cire 2mo ago
The problem isn't that WFO-preferenced people don't exist, it's that it aligns with the narratives of the extroverted management (who approve their own PTO) that it's better, and people who aren't extroverts dread being forced back. No one who prefers WFH is actually against people who prefer offices being allowed to go there, they're opposed to people publicly claiming they prefer that- unqualified- because they see it as a threat; a statement that will be weaponized to support management's RTO initiatives.
- strken 2mo ago
  I'm not an extrovert, I'm more or less on the line between the two extremes, and I prefer WFO or hybrid. Teams should really be choosing their model of work themselves, and anyone who doesn't like it should shuffle off to a different team within the company. Top down RTO is nuts.
  - braiamp 2mo ago
    If by teams you mean the manager of the team, then no. If by teams you mean each individual can evaluate their role and say "I do not need to come to the office at all", then yes.
    - kaffekaka 2mo ago
      In my experience there are unfortunately some people, call them X, who feel that they do not need to be in the office, while their colleagues feel that X do need to be in the office at least for some tasks/occasions. Not all tasks can be done as well remotely. Sometimes people are not very good at combining their own needs and preferences with those of people around them. I am all for WFH and prefer a hybrid setup. WFH is easily the most convenient for me, but some time in the office is good for practical reasons and also for my mental health.
    - strken 2mo ago
      I literally meant the team should decide, collectively. Maybe take a vote.
  - 2mo ago
tuesdaynight 2mo ago
It is because RTO people would force WFH people to spend time (hours, in some case) commuting, spend money on lunch, and making the same salary. You are not wrong for that, but you can understand the reaction, at least, because you hated being forced to WFH during COVID
Dusseldorf 2mo ago
I think the reason people get angry about it is that it feels like an asymmetric ask. It feels a bit like saying "everyone needs to come I to the office because I like there to be people in the office, regardless of whether that's what they want." (not saying that's what you're saying here, just trying to shine some light on how it may be perceived)
- dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
  Oh I get it, I was an early adopter and advocate for working from home. Hell, it was my job to write code to help tens of thousands of people work from home when the pandemic started. I gladly did it, assuming they would all enjoy it as much as I did at the time. But I was only 6 years into it at that point, it was barely a walk in the park.
- zmmmmm 2mo ago
  On top of that, it seems the WFO crowd simply can't help exploiting it to their advantage once they are there. They get less work done, but they hoard higher level decisions about what work should be done. They will say "oh we had this corridor conversation and decided X and Y", and then they will even present the fact that happened as compelling evidence that everyone should work in the office. Whereas I see it as evidence of dysfunction - you want to make a decision you get all the stakeholders in the room and you ensure it's transcribed / recorded. Basically an online meeting is the ideal form of it.
  - unethical_ban 2mo ago
    To us, those hall conversations are normal parts of humanity that cut through organizational bullshit and build personal trust.
titanomachy 2mo ago
I understand both types of people, I think. Some of my friends are parents living outside of tech hubs whose lifestyle would be impossible without remote work, so they understandably felt attacked. But the discourse around this was unhinged. Some remote advocates were convinced that RTO was either a C-suite power trip, or a move to stop commercial real estate from imploding.
- stalfosknight 2mo ago
  It is a C-suite power trip.
- dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
  This is the kind of thinking that makes hn the best place on the internet. It is a shame that it is not the most upvoted.
Telaneo 2mo ago
> So many people were so upset when megacorp said they had to return or find other employment. Is it really surprising that people have this preference? Their reaction to you in the moment might not be reasonable, but it's coming from an injustice done to them, and one they perceive you to be in favour of.
sackfield 2mo ago
Wow I thought I was the only one. I have also had these experiences, including abused by people on this site for the crime of saying I miss the office. I am back at the office now, and am enjoying the separation between work and home.
- cheschire 2mo ago
  There are dozens of us!
prinny_ 2mo ago
I like working from the office for the same reasons. Makes my home feel home and keeps my workplace out. However, I also used to commute for an hour and a half just to go to the office and another hour and a half to come back. This I don’t miss at all.
duskdozer 2mo ago
You probably get/got reactions to that because it apparently mirrors the corporate line that precedes mandated RTO, whether or not there is a frog-boiling hybrid prelude. Most people prefer remote, but in-office requires bodies to provide interaction for those who like it. While yes, I do think offices are largely a waste of space and resources, I really do not mind much if you like it and want to do it, as long as you leave me out of it. As soon as the office comes with a demand for me to be there too, even some of the time, then I'll shout.
demo4567 2mo ago
the part that you conveniently didn't say: nobody wanting to work from home is forcing you to work from home, but because you want to be in office, you force everyone into the office.
- dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
  Bullshit. If the company stops renting office space to save money, or hires you to a team that lives far away, you are forced to work from home.
miyoji 2mo ago
Commutes are uncompensated labor, so you're advocating for a pay decrease for both yourself and your coworkers. Pay me for my commute and I'll gladly work from wherever you like, just recognize that I would get more done if you weren't paying me to travel to and from work. If you don't pay me for the time I spend commuting, you aren't interested in paying the total cost of employing me and you can kindly go fuck off.
- hyperadvanced 2mo ago
  Salary jobs let you pick your price. How much more as a % of your yearly would it cost you to commute every day, amortized over your ~2000 hours of expected work at said office? 10%? 20%? For me, it’s probably 10% for the right gig. Granted, the availability and pain in the ass of actually getting a new job today is suffocating, so it’s not like everyone gets to pick their dream setup anymore
- dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
  Commutes can also be forced meditation, exercise, and exposure to sunlight and fresh air. If you don't naturally prioritize those things, the impact of missing them will sneak up on you.
  - miyoji 2mo ago
    Meditation is impossible when navigating the stress of traffic. Driving isn't exercise. Sunlight filtered through car windows doesn't provide vitamin D. Fresh air doesn't exist on a highway filled with brake dust and car exhaust. Walking to work would be nice and would provide those benefits, but the vast majority of workers don't have that luxury.
    - dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
      Meditation is impossible when navigating the stress of traffic. Driving isn't exercise. I was referring to riding public transportation, then walking through the city to the office. I agree that driving doesn't meet the criteria, but commuting != driving.
johnnyanmac 2mo ago
Feels kind of sad. I wouldn't call myself an extrovert, but I did feel like one of the few people kinda hopeful about RTO back in my days. I got a total of 3 months of office time in my 2nd job before COVID locked everything down and I immediately missed that watercooler talk, hearing these renowned experts just casually talking about some of the crazy problem they did or are encountering and blooming seeds of new initiatives. I knew I wasn't going to get anything like that from an online Slack group, though there were efforts for it. Time comes to potentially open the office back up, and I hear opines are mostly "nah, I don't ever want to go back into an office again". And I get it. Many of them were in industry for decades and have families at home they tend to. For that kind of environment, being able to WFH puts them closer to the people they truly care about. But for a single late 20's dude still adjusting to post-college life in a new town, it felt isolating even when offices technically opened up (on a true hybrid basis. 0 days? 5 days? all fine). Even meetups post COVID just don't really feel the same. less frequent and a lot less people drifting in. I'm fine holing up in my place for days at a time, but I want some socialization with like minds.

ajkjk 2mo ago

Same. HN comments would (maybe still do) accuse you of astroturfing if you said you preferred an office. Not that much stock should be put in strangers accusing you, but, it was telling how ignorant it was.

mh- 2mo ago
I believe "LLMs are useful"* is the current zeitgeist's version of "Working from the office has upsides", in terms of attracting astroturfing accusations over expressing an opinion held by many. * simplifying, of course.
- titanomachy 2mo ago
  [flagged]
- ajkjk 2mo ago
  I agree, somewhat, but that is a much more evidence-backed stance---they're obviously useful in a sense; the debate is over what worldview / posture one ought to adopt as a result of that. Whereas the RTO stuff was a debate between an entirely emotionally-motivated argument, "I don't want to work in an office therefore I must deny that anyone wants to in order to prevent the idea from getting airtime", versus the obvious reality that there are a range of stances on the subject.

ang_cire 2mo ago

The problem isn't that WFO-preferenced people don't exist, it's that it aligns with the narratives of the extroverted management (who approve their own PTO) that it's better, and people who aren't extroverts dread being forced back. No one who prefers WFH is actually against people who prefer offices being allowed to go there, they're opposed to people publicly claiming they prefer that- unqualified- because they see it as a threat; a statement that will be weaponized to support management's RTO initiatives.

strken 2mo ago
I'm not an extrovert, I'm more or less on the line between the two extremes, and I prefer WFO or hybrid. Teams should really be choosing their model of work themselves, and anyone who doesn't like it should shuffle off to a different team within the company. Top down RTO is nuts.
- braiamp 2mo ago
  If by teams you mean the manager of the team, then no. If by teams you mean each individual can evaluate their role and say "I do not need to come to the office at all", then yes.
  - kaffekaka 2mo ago
    In my experience there are unfortunately some people, call them X, who feel that they do not need to be in the office, while their colleagues feel that X do need to be in the office at least for some tasks/occasions. Not all tasks can be done as well remotely. Sometimes people are not very good at combining their own needs and preferences with those of people around them. I am all for WFH and prefer a hybrid setup. WFH is easily the most convenient for me, but some time in the office is good for practical reasons and also for my mental health.
  - strken 2mo ago
    I literally meant the team should decide, collectively. Maybe take a vote.
- 2mo ago

tuesdaynight 2mo ago

It is because RTO people would force WFH people to spend time (hours, in some case) commuting, spend money on lunch, and making the same salary. You are not wrong for that, but you can understand the reaction, at least, because you hated being forced to WFH during COVID

Dusseldorf 2mo ago

I think the reason people get angry about it is that it feels like an asymmetric ask. It feels a bit like saying "everyone needs to come I to the office because I like there to be people in the office, regardless of whether that's what they want." (not saying that's what you're saying here, just trying to shine some light on how it may be perceived)

dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
Oh I get it, I was an early adopter and advocate for working from home. Hell, it was my job to write code to help tens of thousands of people work from home when the pandemic started. I gladly did it, assuming they would all enjoy it as much as I did at the time. But I was only 6 years into it at that point, it was barely a walk in the park.
zmmmmm 2mo ago
On top of that, it seems the WFO crowd simply can't help exploiting it to their advantage once they are there. They get less work done, but they hoard higher level decisions about what work should be done. They will say "oh we had this corridor conversation and decided X and Y", and then they will even present the fact that happened as compelling evidence that everyone should work in the office. Whereas I see it as evidence of dysfunction - you want to make a decision you get all the stakeholders in the room and you ensure it's transcribed / recorded. Basically an online meeting is the ideal form of it.
- unethical_ban 2mo ago
  To us, those hall conversations are normal parts of humanity that cut through organizational bullshit and build personal trust.

titanomachy 2mo ago

I understand both types of people, I think. Some of my friends are parents living outside of tech hubs whose lifestyle would be impossible without remote work, so they understandably felt attacked. But the discourse around this was unhinged. Some remote advocates were convinced that RTO was either a C-suite power trip, or a move to stop commercial real estate from imploding.

stalfosknight 2mo ago
It is a C-suite power trip.
dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
This is the kind of thinking that makes hn the best place on the internet. It is a shame that it is not the most upvoted.

Telaneo 2mo ago

> So many people were so upset when megacorp said they had to return or find other employment. Is it really surprising that people have this preference? Their reaction to you in the moment might not be reasonable, but it's coming from an injustice done to them, and one they perceive you to be in favour of.

sackfield 2mo ago

Wow I thought I was the only one. I have also had these experiences, including abused by people on this site for the crime of saying I miss the office. I am back at the office now, and am enjoying the separation between work and home.

cheschire 2mo ago
There are dozens of us!

prinny_ 2mo ago

I like working from the office for the same reasons. Makes my home feel home and keeps my workplace out. However, I also used to commute for an hour and a half just to go to the office and another hour and a half to come back. This I don’t miss at all.

duskdozer 2mo ago

You probably get/got reactions to that because it apparently mirrors the corporate line that precedes mandated RTO, whether or not there is a frog-boiling hybrid prelude. Most people prefer remote, but in-office requires bodies to provide interaction for those who like it. While yes, I do think offices are largely a waste of space and resources, I really do not mind much if you like it and want to do it, as long as you leave me out of it. As soon as the office comes with a demand for me to be there too, even some of the time, then I'll shout.

demo4567 2mo ago

the part that you conveniently didn't say: nobody wanting to work from home is forcing you to work from home, but because you want to be in office, you force everyone into the office.

dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
Bullshit. If the company stops renting office space to save money, or hires you to a team that lives far away, you are forced to work from home.

miyoji 2mo ago

Commutes are uncompensated labor, so you're advocating for a pay decrease for both yourself and your coworkers. Pay me for my commute and I'll gladly work from wherever you like, just recognize that I would get more done if you weren't paying me to travel to and from work. If you don't pay me for the time I spend commuting, you aren't interested in paying the total cost of employing me and you can kindly go fuck off.

hyperadvanced 2mo ago
Salary jobs let you pick your price. How much more as a % of your yearly would it cost you to commute every day, amortized over your ~2000 hours of expected work at said office? 10%? 20%? For me, it’s probably 10% for the right gig. Granted, the availability and pain in the ass of actually getting a new job today is suffocating, so it’s not like everyone gets to pick their dream setup anymore
dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
Commutes can also be forced meditation, exercise, and exposure to sunlight and fresh air. If you don't naturally prioritize those things, the impact of missing them will sneak up on you.
- miyoji 2mo ago
  Meditation is impossible when navigating the stress of traffic. Driving isn't exercise. Sunlight filtered through car windows doesn't provide vitamin D. Fresh air doesn't exist on a highway filled with brake dust and car exhaust. Walking to work would be nice and would provide those benefits, but the vast majority of workers don't have that luxury.
  - dec0dedab0de 2mo ago
    Meditation is impossible when navigating the stress of traffic. Driving isn't exercise. I was referring to riding public transportation, then walking through the city to the office. I agree that driving doesn't meet the criteria, but commuting != driving.

johnnyanmac 2mo ago

Feels kind of sad. I wouldn't call myself an extrovert, but I did feel like one of the few people kinda hopeful about RTO back in my days. I got a total of 3 months of office time in my 2nd job before COVID locked everything down and I immediately missed that watercooler talk, hearing these renowned experts just casually talking about some of the crazy problem they did or are encountering and blooming seeds of new initiatives. I knew I wasn't going to get anything like that from an online Slack group, though there were efforts for it. Time comes to potentially open the office back up, and I hear opines are mostly "nah, I don't ever want to go back into an office again". And I get it. Many of them were in industry for decades and have families at home they tend to. For that kind of environment, being able to WFH puts them closer to the people they truly care about. But for a single late 20's dude still adjusting to post-college life in a new town, it felt isolating even when offices technically opened up (on a true hybrid basis. 0 days? 5 days? all fine). Even meetups post COVID just don't really feel the same. less frequent and a lot less people drifting in. I'm fine holing up in my place for days at a time, but I want some socialization with like minds.