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The longer background is that Christian Ude our mayor until 2014 furthered the LiMux[1] project - migrating more than 14000 PCs in public administration to Linu

The longer background is that Christian Ude our mayor until 2014 furthered the LiMux[1] project - migrating more than 14000 PCs in public administration to Linux. He got personal visits from both Ballmer and Gates that pressured him to stay with Microsoft[2] but did not balk. Unfortunately his successor caved to Microsoft's siren song abolished LiMux and Microsoft got a nice campus in the city (they used to be at the outskirts). Since May this year we have the young and energetic Dominik Krause and there is hope for change again. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux [2] https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgaben/2019/10/interview-2/ https://www.linux-magazin.de/ausgaben/2019/10/interview-2/

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OtomotO 3mo ago
LiMux was such a hopeful project. Let's see whether times truly have changed with the reckless US administration and the total dependence on closed source US software. Maybe Europe will finally truly wake up.
- pjmlp 3mo ago
  The biggest problem is that none of these projects actually go for the full stack, hardware, operating systems, programming languages, user software, cloud infra. It is mostly a specific kind, and lasts one ruling period in most cases. On my German city, the library used a SuSE based distro for the computers, eventually it got back into Windows, when they switched IT support company.
dataflow 3mo ago
By "balk" did you instead mean "budge"? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?
- jjp 3mo ago
  Baulk - refuse to comply
  - codethief 3mo ago
    > He got personal visits from both Ballmer and Gates that pressured him to stay with Microsoft[2] but did not balk. So he did not refuse to comply, i.e. complied? I think the parent is right: Grandparent probably meant "he did not budge".
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
    - cygx 3mo ago
      Per Merriam-Webster, 'to balk' means: 1: to refuse abruptly 2: to stop short and refuse to proceed Per Cambridge Dictionary, it means: to be unwilling to do something or to allow something to happen So "He did not balk" can be read as "He did not stop" / "He was willing to let things proceed"
      - dataflow 3mo ago
        > Per Cambridge Dictionary, it means: to be unwilling to do something You agree balking means being unwilling, right? So not balking means being willing, right? He did not balk, therefore he was not unwilling, therefore he was willing, right? So he was willing to do what Microsoft asked, "but" so was the next guy? What?
        Someone 3mo ago
        > So he was willing to do what Microsoft asked? No. Balk = stop and return on your steps. He was moving towards ”migrating more than 14000 PCs in public administration to Linux”, Gates and Ballmer tried to make him stop, but he continued on his path.
        deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
hchja 3mo ago
Why would you want/need change when it comes to OS of choice in the public administration? If you personally prefer Linux then you should install that. Maybe I’m not understanding the impact of one over the other in this scenario or if it’s a long historical gripe thats shared between many Munich citizens?
- QuantumNomad_ 3mo ago
  From the linked Wikipedia article about LiMux: > The main goal was to achieve more independence from software distributors. The decision in 2003 had two components: to get free software running on most desktops, and to buy and develop web-based and platform independent (e.g. Java-based) business applications. A core goal was to reduce reliance of Microsoft-based software stacks and fund local developers to write replacement software. and: > The city reported that due to the project, it had gained freedom in software decisions, increased security and saved €11.7 million (US$16 million).
- schubidubiduba 3mo ago
  Having your public administration be dependent on the whims of a foreign government (and yes, Microsoft is subject to whims of the US government if it comes down to it) is just a bad idea in general. And in particular since 2 years ago. Then there's the ridiculous license costs that could be saved.
tirant 3mo ago
I have very little hope in Krause. He is just a populist and an opportunistic politician without much substance behind. Personally I couldn’t care less which operating system the city chooses to use as long as it helps to save costs and increase efficiency. Bureaucracy is extremely high and ideology driven, permissions take too long to be granted and populist projects are taking money away from families and their young children (Kindergarten contributions are through the roof).
- dewey 3mo ago
  > Personally I couldn’t care less which operating system the city chooses to use as long as it helps to save costs and increase efficiency. It's your personal opinion so that's fine, but that's exactly the thinking that got us into other hard to detangle dependencies before (gas from russia was cheap and efficient, until it got turned off) and that's the same for building up an even bigger dependency on Microsoft and other large US vendors when many other European countries like France are investiging heavily into building up European alternatives.
  - pembrook 3mo ago
    Comparing one of the core strategic resources of any society (energy) and microsoft office suite in the same sentence is a bit silly no? Microsoft Word is absolutely not a core strategic asset to your countries economic success. You could easily migrate off of it tomorrow and everything would be fine, minus some banal feature gaps in LibreOffice/etc. Nobody will die in the winter and there will be no food shortages (EU is fertilizer dependent) if Microsoft shuts off your access to creating PowerPoints. The fact that there’s more effort being put into building EU alternatives for Microsoft Office than energy security, tells you how unserious and out of touch the political class truly is. And Microsoft office is just the very very top of the stack (the easiest to vibe code alternatives to). What about the operating systems, the hardware, for which there is no EU alternative for? And it’s not just the US you need to worry about, all of computing depends on physical manufacturing in China/Taiwan. China could cut off access tomorrow and there’d be no more computers/phones/comms infrastructure/etc. That’s an actual real threat. As someone living in the EU, the saber rattling for domestic political points between the US and the EU is one of the dumbest memes and is resulting is real tax money being spent on the silliest of projects. Migrating off microsoft while their entire business model is being made irrelevant by AI, being one of them. Meanwhile, the stuff that actually matters for sovereignty and isn't surface level BS is of course ignored (energy, resources, mining) in favor of handouts to companies for domestic manufacturing of weapons that aren't even relevant for modern war.
rob74 3mo ago
"Microsoft got a nice campus in the city" - plus they decided to pay taxes (Gewerbesteuer) in Munich rather than Unterschleißheim, despite Munich having a higher rate.
shevy-java 3mo ago
> Unfortunately his successor caved to Microsoft Corruption unfortunately also happens in Bavaria as this can be seen. Thankfully Merz is not affiliated with big business at all ... oh wait, nevermind. (One reason why public opinion about him has totally downed. That, as well as his age - old people are often really a bad choice for politics, we can all see this in the USA right now.)
- wink 2mo ago
  "also"? :D https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amigo-Aff%C3%A4re https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amigo-Aff%C3%A4re (sorry, no English translation available)

deleted 3mo ago

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OtomotO 3mo ago

LiMux was such a hopeful project. Let's see whether times truly have changed with the reckless US administration and the total dependence on closed source US software. Maybe Europe will finally truly wake up.

pjmlp 3mo ago
The biggest problem is that none of these projects actually go for the full stack, hardware, operating systems, programming languages, user software, cloud infra. It is mostly a specific kind, and lasts one ruling period in most cases. On my German city, the library used a SuSE based distro for the computers, eventually it got back into Windows, when they switched IT support company.

dataflow 3mo ago

By "balk" did you instead mean "budge"? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

jjp 3mo ago
Baulk - refuse to comply
- codethief 3mo ago
  > He got personal visits from both Ballmer and Gates that pressured him to stay with Microsoft[2] but did not balk. So he did not refuse to comply, i.e. complied? I think the parent is right: Grandparent probably meant "he did not budge".
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - cygx 3mo ago
    Per Merriam-Webster, 'to balk' means: 1: to refuse abruptly 2: to stop short and refuse to proceed Per Cambridge Dictionary, it means: to be unwilling to do something or to allow something to happen So "He did not balk" can be read as "He did not stop" / "He was willing to let things proceed"
    - dataflow 3mo ago
      > Per Cambridge Dictionary, it means: to be unwilling to do something You agree balking means being unwilling, right? So not balking means being willing, right? He did not balk, therefore he was not unwilling, therefore he was willing, right? So he was willing to do what Microsoft asked, "but" so was the next guy? What?
      - Someone 3mo ago
        > So he was willing to do what Microsoft asked? No. Balk = stop and return on your steps. He was moving towards ”migrating more than 14000 PCs in public administration to Linux”, Gates and Ballmer tried to make him stop, but he continued on his path.
      - deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]

hchja 3mo ago

Why would you want/need change when it comes to OS of choice in the public administration? If you personally prefer Linux then you should install that. Maybe I’m not understanding the impact of one over the other in this scenario or if it’s a long historical gripe thats shared between many Munich citizens?

QuantumNomad_ 3mo ago
From the linked Wikipedia article about LiMux: > The main goal was to achieve more independence from software distributors. The decision in 2003 had two components: to get free software running on most desktops, and to buy and develop web-based and platform independent (e.g. Java-based) business applications. A core goal was to reduce reliance of Microsoft-based software stacks and fund local developers to write replacement software. and: > The city reported that due to the project, it had gained freedom in software decisions, increased security and saved €11.7 million (US$16 million).
schubidubiduba 3mo ago
Having your public administration be dependent on the whims of a foreign government (and yes, Microsoft is subject to whims of the US government if it comes down to it) is just a bad idea in general. And in particular since 2 years ago. Then there's the ridiculous license costs that could be saved.

tirant 3mo ago

I have very little hope in Krause. He is just a populist and an opportunistic politician without much substance behind. Personally I couldn’t care less which operating system the city chooses to use as long as it helps to save costs and increase efficiency. Bureaucracy is extremely high and ideology driven, permissions take too long to be granted and populist projects are taking money away from families and their young children (Kindergarten contributions are through the roof).

dewey 3mo ago
> Personally I couldn’t care less which operating system the city chooses to use as long as it helps to save costs and increase efficiency. It's your personal opinion so that's fine, but that's exactly the thinking that got us into other hard to detangle dependencies before (gas from russia was cheap and efficient, until it got turned off) and that's the same for building up an even bigger dependency on Microsoft and other large US vendors when many other European countries like France are investiging heavily into building up European alternatives.
- pembrook 3mo ago
  Comparing one of the core strategic resources of any society (energy) and microsoft office suite in the same sentence is a bit silly no? Microsoft Word is absolutely not a core strategic asset to your countries economic success. You could easily migrate off of it tomorrow and everything would be fine, minus some banal feature gaps in LibreOffice/etc. Nobody will die in the winter and there will be no food shortages (EU is fertilizer dependent) if Microsoft shuts off your access to creating PowerPoints. The fact that there’s more effort being put into building EU alternatives for Microsoft Office than energy security, tells you how unserious and out of touch the political class truly is. And Microsoft office is just the very very top of the stack (the easiest to vibe code alternatives to). What about the operating systems, the hardware, for which there is no EU alternative for? And it’s not just the US you need to worry about, all of computing depends on physical manufacturing in China/Taiwan. China could cut off access tomorrow and there’d be no more computers/phones/comms infrastructure/etc. That’s an actual real threat. As someone living in the EU, the saber rattling for domestic political points between the US and the EU is one of the dumbest memes and is resulting is real tax money being spent on the silliest of projects. Migrating off microsoft while their entire business model is being made irrelevant by AI, being one of them. Meanwhile, the stuff that actually matters for sovereignty and isn't surface level BS is of course ignored (energy, resources, mining) in favor of handouts to companies for domestic manufacturing of weapons that aren't even relevant for modern war.

rob74 3mo ago

"Microsoft got a nice campus in the city" - plus they decided to pay taxes (Gewerbesteuer) in Munich rather than Unterschleißheim, despite Munich having a higher rate.

shevy-java 3mo ago

> Unfortunately his successor caved to Microsoft Corruption unfortunately also happens in Bavaria as this can be seen. Thankfully Merz is not affiliated with big business at all ... oh wait, nevermind. (One reason why public opinion about him has totally downed. That, as well as his age - old people are often really a bad choice for politics, we can all see this in the USA right now.)

wink 2mo ago
"also"? :D https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amigo-Aff%C3%A4re https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amigo-Aff%C3%A4re (sorry, no English translation available)