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Apple must have hard evidence on this. I can’t believe they would take it this far without already knowing they are going to win. If they have to fire a huge ch
by reenorap 3mo ago
Apple must have hard evidence on this. I can’t believe they would take it this far without already knowing they are going to win. If they have to fire a huge chunk of their hardware employees it’s going to throw their IPO plans into chaos.
- jstummbillig 3mo agoWhat do you mean "this far"? How far is this? Corps lose law suits all the time. They always have to go whatever "this far" is before it happens, surely?
- cj 3mo agoFiling lawsuits against ex-employees is going pretty far. Not good PR for Apple if their claims are wrong. Companies often file frivolous lawsuits against other companies. It’s much rarer to throw frivolous lawsuits at individuals.
- doctaj 3mo agoJust to be clear, these are letters to individuals about the existing lawsuit with OpenAI, not new lawsuits against individuals.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> these are letters to individuals about the existing lawsuit with OpenAI, not new lawsuits against individuals My guess is these employees weren’t chosen randomly. If they refuse to coöperate with Apple, they’ll get personally sued as well. And the reality of the matter is, given Altman’s public persona and reputation, there is a good chance an AG somewhere starts looking at whether these folks broke any laws.
- Danox 3mo agoThey will find out what Altman really cares about, my guess at this point, he only cares about the impending IPO throwing baggage overboard (new hires), probably won’t be a problem in the end.
- staticman2 3mo ago> If they refuse to coöperate with Apple, they’ll get personally sued as well. This isn't law and order and that's not how civil litigation works.
- shimman 3mo agoThey can easily be found to have violated the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, like this is a slam dunk. Highly possible too seeing the massive public hatred against companies like OpenAI. DAs like easy political wins too and what better win than sticking it to OpenAI and its lackeys? Might have to make some phone calls to my local representatives now...
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> Might have to make some phone calls to my local representatives now If you’re in New York, California or Texas I’ll help you :).
- compiler-guy 3mo agoDefinitely not randomly chosen--Apple would have chosen people it believes may have evidence that relates to the case. It's a legal request to preserve that data. But it doesn't follow at all that Apple is threatening to sue them. A long time ago, in an unrelated case, I got a letter like this because I was in the room when a certain decision was made and happened to have some notes about that meeting. But there was no chance I would be sued. I wasn't the decider, and was basically a third-party involved.
- Forgeties79 3mo agoThe accusations are incredibly clear/defined (and serious!) and have a very simple burden of proof. These things either happened or they didn’t, and they have material evidence or they don’t. It’s incredibly unlikely that they filed such big, concrete accusations without concrete proof to back them up. And while I am far from an Apple fan boy, yes a lot of big corporations file frivolous lawsuits but Apple typically does not engage in that behavior against other companies. Also bear in mind that open AI is a huge name so there is a public/political element that goes along with this for Apple. There are going to be a lot of people who do not want Apple to win this regardless of how true their claims are and will figut like hell to protect openAI
- marginalx 3mo agoThey also have a new CEO at the helm.
- Tempest1981 3mo agoEffective Sept 1
- White_Wolf 3mo ago"Apple typically does not engage in that behaviour against other companies" - Meet Rossman. He'll tell you all about that and individuals too.
- user43928 3mo agoI do not know a lot about Apple's litigation against other companies, but Apple did file numerous largely unsuccessful challenges to the EU's DMA.
- browningstreet 3mo agoYou see how that’s an entirely different kind of legal action, right? It’s a resistance to regulation, which is entirely different than this accusation of malfeasance.
- 3mo ago
- s3p 3mo ago>How far is this? If I am understanding your question, they went so far as to sue their employees.
- jasonlotito 3mo agoYou are getting downvoted because, I guess, people didn't read who the defendents who are getting sued, and that it literally starts with sueing two employees: CHANG LIU, TANG YEW TAN, OPENAI FOUNDATION f/k/a OPENAI, INC., OPENAI GROUP PBC, and IO PRODUCTS, LLC f/k/a IO PRODUCTS, INC.,
- jader201 3mo agoThere are two individuals being sued, but many more received letters. Parent is being downvoted likely because their statement implies the “dozens” receiving letters are individually being sued, but that’s not the case.
- jstummbillig 3mo agoIs this uncommon when it comes to corporations? Sue the people who (allegedly) did the thing?
- deaton 3mo agoApple lawyers have a reputation for doing their homework
- teeray 3mo agoMakes you wonder if they’ll settle for bargain-basement token prices for Apple Intelligence.
- dofm 3mo agoI think it is clear that if Apple were going to deal with OpenAI on that level, they already would have. What they wanted for their AI products is a measure of control over their destiny that OpenAI clearly did not want to give them that badly. It's also pretty clear that Apple is willing to work with arch-rivals to supply components of their products, both software and hardware, but values consistency alongside trustworthiness.
- moduspol 3mo agoThis stuff happened years ago, right? Something tells me that discussion has already happened, and they went with Google. Besides: Apple is a "real" company that will definitely still be around in five years. They've already fumbled Siri multiple times. IMO Google was certainly the right choice for actually executing well on Apple's own terms for the foreseeable future.
- testfrequency 3mo agoYou’re underestimating how much Apple Legal goes after anyone and everyone they feel a slight wrong sniff about. I know some insane stories that will never be publicly disclosed for one reason or another, and…it’s not a legal team I’d ever want to cross paths with. It’s also not the first time Apple has cried wolf at employees leaving the company to do bigger and better things, while trying to take responsibility for their successes.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- Forgeties79 3mo agoThen share some of those insane stories with sources I guess. Because this seems to directly contradict my understanding of Apple (post-Jobs in particular). I do not love Apple, as I said another comment I am so far from an apple fanboy, but frivolous lawsuits against other companies is not really typical for them. Also, these accusations are far from frivolous and they either have proof or they don’t. It would be very strange for them to file this thinking they would win with some sort of gray area argument
- testfrequency 3mo agoI worked at Apple for a few decades. My comment was not meant to be cryptic as much as it was to say: their legal team is very very hands on. As you could imagine, I’m not sharing any specific information.
- jubilanti 3mo agoOh, in that case, I just happen to have some insane stories that will never be publicly disclosed, and every one of my stories rebuts every one of your stories.
- cwmoore 3mo agoI can only wonder what percentage of human conceptual abilities are expended on rebuttal.
- seviu 3mo agoThis is John Ternus having a beef with Tang Tan. It’s widely known they both competed for the role of CEO. Tim Cook would never have started this. It shows a level of pettiness and arrogance which I never expected to see from Apple. I can’t put myself in the mind of John, but he clearly hated Tang. From outside and with a parent’s perspective this looks like my kids throwing a tantrum. John must be thinking he is the new Steve Jobs (Steve would definitely do this)
- MattDamonSpace 3mo agoAgreed Steve would do this But the iPhone is the most valuable consumer hardware product on the planet, and the accusations here is “conspiracy to steal” essentially. Is it really that petty? Apple should be okay with theft of valuable secrets?
- wat10000 3mo agoApple comes down hard on employees who merely leak to the press. Taking internal documents to a competitor is not going to be fun.
- jonlucc 3mo agoIt's interesting that you say they must have hated each other, but assume only Ternus is acting on that. What makes you think Tan's hatred of Ternus or animosity toward Apple for picking Ternus over him didn't lead Tan to do the alleged behavior?
- seviu 2mo agoI am not the one who says that https://x.com/markgurman/status/2075949833920065879?s=20 https://x.com/markgurman/status/2075949833920065879?s=20
- gota 3mo agoMaybe a naive take, but if there's one team in a large corporation that does not bend to "the CEO(-to-be) wants it", that is the Legal team. Particularly when the ask is a lawsuit of this scope and relevance, and potential costs (of all kinds). The head of Legal can just hint to the board how expensive (in all senses) the vendetta would be and the CEO is likely "not to be" anymore, or "to be temporary".
- newaccount670 3mo ago[dead]
- martinky24 3mo agoThey literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server after he left.
- aprilthird2021 3mo agoThat's not enough though. He could have been acting rogue or for some other reason. That alone won't win in court
- Danox 3mo agoAmong 40 ex Apple employees come on at least five or six of them probably crossed the line in their enthusiasm to get the big bucks. If it was a small number, four or five total, maybe, but not 40.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo agoAlso, Apple confronted OpenAI about LOL Liu. OpenAI’s response wasn’t to fire him, conduct an investigation and confidentially settle with Apple. It was to go cold.
- aprilthird2021 3mo agoWhy would they fire him and settle with Apple? If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? If he hasn't used the material at work but has some problem with his former employer, why fire him?
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> If they haven't done anything wrong, why settle? One, because the evidence is damning–and comprehensive–against their interests, and OpenAI has a ticking clock around fundraising and going public that an ongoing lawsuit with Apple endangers. Two, because based on all the facts in the public domain–and Sam Altman's documented history of lying–the likelihood of Apple succeeding on the merits of this case are high. Someone at OpenAI seems to have sensed this when they went cold on Apple's legal letters. > If he hasn't used the material at work The evidence presented shows Liu demonstrating a total lack of character and judgmeent, quite possibly to a criminal level. The fact that OpenAI is confused about why this is bad is their own condemnation.