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I'm not really sure that China's labour costs can be described as "low" these days, going by GDP per capita [0] they're above the global average. They're a litt

by roenxi 3mo ago

I'm not really sure that China's labour costs can be described as "low" these days, going by GDP per capita [0] they're above the global average. They're a little lower than the Europe median I think but the gap probably isn't strategically important. The Chinese edge tends to come from their environmental laws; they allow their industry to do things that the West would ban. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

byzantinegene 3mo ago
does demolishing homes to build data centers count?
brookst 3mo ago
Is GDP per capita really a good proxy for labor costs?
- dijit 3mo ago
  it can be, if you control with the Geni coefficient. However large parts of many countries is rural, and different amounts for different countries, and that tends cause control issues. But in general, a low Geni coefficient and a high GDP per capita means labour costs are high.
- roenxi 3mo ago
  Yep. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-daily-per-capita-expenditure-vs-gdp-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-daily-per-capita-e... for example. Although note the log-log axis which undersells the gaps between countries.
podocarp 3mo ago
I have no source for this but I feel like the environment thing is too frequently repeated (also without any evidence). They're pumping out solar like mad and places like the Xinjiang deserts actually have nowhere to put their excess electricity from what I've read previously. They also have a "cancel" culture pointed at the right place, in that whenever there is some exposé of some xyz it usually does get some reaction from the authorities. Even if in the end no real punishment is meted out due to corruption or politics or cover ups the very least is that the perps gave to change a hiding spot. Which is very much unlike the datacenter gas turbines running in people's backyards in the US right now. Furthermore if you take a look at the Politburo meetings and political documents etc it is clear that Xi is actively trying to solve the environmental problem. In the latest people's meeting it was also a talking point. It is a matter of "face" for them at this point. Contrast with "drill baby drill"? It is easy to talk about the "environmental" problems in China but I think it is very last decade. As a disclaimer I live in Asia and I frequently visit China but I'm not Chinese nor do I get any so called "social credits" which actually don't exist in China. The information gap between what the west thinks they know about China and what it actually is is sometimes kind of just a huge joke.
- NamlchakKhandro 3mo ago
  Reminds me of my first trip to Japan, a lifetime of robotech and ghost in the shell had me shocked and disappointed at how run down and stuck in the 80s Tokyo and Hiroshima was.
- fmnxl 3mo ago
  I've been saying the same thing for the last 8 years to my european and american friends. Maybe in another 8 years they'll finally realise, or they will quietly adjust to the new normal where China is no longer viewed as this cheating, dirty and backwards competitor.
  - ForHackernews 3mo ago
    Will China still be an authoritarian one-party state?
    - puelocesar 3mo ago
      Probably yes, but maybe by then, so will the US
  - applicative 3mo ago
    It is an absolute dictatorship like the Nazi Reich or the Stalin system, only hundreds of times more powerful than either.
- kasey_junk 3mo ago
  I think the environment thing is really overblown as well. What’s not overblown is the ease with which the government can get big projects done. And there are some downsides to that, specifically when it comes to property rights. The Beijing public transit trains are a great example. The routes are wildly straight. So straight they allow extremely long trains. Thats possible, in part, because the government can just reappropriate the land in a way that governments in the west can’t without engaging with a contentious public. And that’s just one example. That sort of thing permeates many different kinds of projects and leads to a particular kind of efficiency.
kristiandupont 3mo ago
I don't think it's entirely down to that. They have extremely optimized supply chains: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h7McXnWRCQY https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h7McXnWRCQY
tumdum_ 3mo ago
I'm not sure how true is this claim about weak environmental laws. I don't have any data to back this up, but I was in China in 2013 and two years ago and the difference in air quality in major cities is staggering. So, maybe they destroy the environment but for sure they no longer do that near the big cities.
chabska 3mo ago
You mean like building an AI data center in the middle of a residential area, and fitting it with gas turbines that deafens the entire neighborhood?
yorwba 3mo ago
China's labor costs are low for most labor-intensive manufactured goods that higher-income countries import from them. They're high for most labor-intensive manufactured goods that China imports from lower-income countries. It's all relative. Not all manufacturing is super polluting (nor is all manufacturing labor-intensive), but if you tried to replicate a non-polluting labor-intensive Chinese factory's cost structure in a high-income country, you'd still run into the problem that the workers you'd need to hire have better options available.

by roenxi 3mo ago

byzantinegene 3mo ago

does demolishing homes to build data centers count?

brookst 3mo ago

Is GDP per capita really a good proxy for labor costs?

dijit 3mo ago
it can be, if you control with the Geni coefficient. However large parts of many countries is rural, and different amounts for different countries, and that tends cause control issues. But in general, a low Geni coefficient and a high GDP per capita means labour costs are high.
roenxi 3mo ago
Yep. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-daily-per-capita-expenditure-vs-gdp-per-capita https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/median-daily-per-capita-e... for example. Although note the log-log axis which undersells the gaps between countries.

podocarp 3mo ago

I have no source for this but I feel like the environment thing is too frequently repeated (also without any evidence). They're pumping out solar like mad and places like the Xinjiang deserts actually have nowhere to put their excess electricity from what I've read previously. They also have a "cancel" culture pointed at the right place, in that whenever there is some exposé of some xyz it usually does get some reaction from the authorities. Even if in the end no real punishment is meted out due to corruption or politics or cover ups the very least is that the perps gave to change a hiding spot. Which is very much unlike the datacenter gas turbines running in people's backyards in the US right now. Furthermore if you take a look at the Politburo meetings and political documents etc it is clear that Xi is actively trying to solve the environmental problem. In the latest people's meeting it was also a talking point. It is a matter of "face" for them at this point. Contrast with "drill baby drill"? It is easy to talk about the "environmental" problems in China but I think it is very last decade. As a disclaimer I live in Asia and I frequently visit China but I'm not Chinese nor do I get any so called "social credits" which actually don't exist in China. The information gap between what the west thinks they know about China and what it actually is is sometimes kind of just a huge joke.

NamlchakKhandro 3mo ago
Reminds me of my first trip to Japan, a lifetime of robotech and ghost in the shell had me shocked and disappointed at how run down and stuck in the 80s Tokyo and Hiroshima was.
fmnxl 3mo ago
I've been saying the same thing for the last 8 years to my european and american friends. Maybe in another 8 years they'll finally realise, or they will quietly adjust to the new normal where China is no longer viewed as this cheating, dirty and backwards competitor.
- ForHackernews 3mo ago
  Will China still be an authoritarian one-party state?
  - puelocesar 3mo ago
    Probably yes, but maybe by then, so will the US
- applicative 3mo ago
  It is an absolute dictatorship like the Nazi Reich or the Stalin system, only hundreds of times more powerful than either.
kasey_junk 3mo ago
I think the environment thing is really overblown as well. What’s not overblown is the ease with which the government can get big projects done. And there are some downsides to that, specifically when it comes to property rights. The Beijing public transit trains are a great example. The routes are wildly straight. So straight they allow extremely long trains. Thats possible, in part, because the government can just reappropriate the land in a way that governments in the west can’t without engaging with a contentious public. And that’s just one example. That sort of thing permeates many different kinds of projects and leads to a particular kind of efficiency.

kristiandupont 3mo ago

I don't think it's entirely down to that. They have extremely optimized supply chains: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h7McXnWRCQY https://www.youtube.com/shorts/h7McXnWRCQY

tumdum_ 3mo ago

I'm not sure how true is this claim about weak environmental laws. I don't have any data to back this up, but I was in China in 2013 and two years ago and the difference in air quality in major cities is staggering. So, maybe they destroy the environment but for sure they no longer do that near the big cities.

chabska 3mo ago

You mean like building an AI data center in the middle of a residential area, and fitting it with gas turbines that deafens the entire neighborhood?

yorwba 3mo ago

China's labor costs are low for most labor-intensive manufactured goods that higher-income countries import from them. They're high for most labor-intensive manufactured goods that China imports from lower-income countries. It's all relative. Not all manufacturing is super polluting (nor is all manufacturing labor-intensive), but if you tried to replicate a non-polluting labor-intensive Chinese factory's cost structure in a high-income country, you'd still run into the problem that the workers you'd need to hire have better options available.