5 ms·

Upsides will be seen into societies that are not capital-above-govt, but govt-above-capital. China for instance: they will show advantages of AI (amongst other

by flossly 4mo ago

Upsides will be seen into societies that are not capital-above-govt, but govt-above-capital. China for instance: they will show advantages of AI (amongst other technologies). Sure they've got surveillance there, but there's also surveillance in the west. In China you have clean streets and low crime, while in the west it's surveillance without tangible benefit for the common people.

kelnos 4mo ago
There are many places in the West with clean streets and low crime that don't use China's economic or political model.
includenotfound 4mo ago
[flagged]
- conception 4mo ago
  Texas at least disagrees with you - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU01/20250122/117827/HHRG-119-JU01-20250122-SD004.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU01/20250122/117827/HHRG... Do you have statistics to back your assertions that disagree with this data?
  - dmitrygr 4mo ago
    https://www.scup.com/doi/10.1080/14043858.2014.926062 https://www.scup.com/doi/10.1080/14043858.2014.926062 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611
  - includenotfound 4mo ago
    I do in fact. Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2024/Bund/Tatverdaechtige/BU-TV-22-T62-TV-Staatsangehoerigkeiten_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... Total N = ~2.2M Germans = ~1.2M (~58%) Non-Germans = ~900k (~42%) Population: Germans ~71M (~85%), foreign ~12M (~15%) Per-capita, non-Germans show up ~2.8x more. Approximate rates: Germans: ~1,786 per 100k (baseline) All Non-Germans: ~7,365 per 100k (~4.1× German rate) Syria: ~12,900 per 100k (~7.2×) Afghanistan: ~12,300 per 100k (~6.9×) Romania: ~8,450 per 100k (~4.7×) Turkey: ~6,660 per 100k (~3.7×) Poland: ~6,640 per 100k (~3.7×) Ukraine: ~5,130 per 100k (~2.9×) --- Some other countries (Switzerland, Denmark) also publish per-nationality data and it doesn't look any better. The other comment shows data from Norway/Finland/Sweden which is more of the same. The US is a different topic (but strong arguments with clear data can be made as well), so I'll refrain from engaging it here to avoid further derailing the thread.
    - lovich 4mo ago
      how does claiming that the US has strong arguments to support your point, but discussing them would derail the thread, when the person you were replying to was showing data from Texas, a US state?
    - menno-sh 4mo ago
      This is ignoring a lot of variables, the most obvious of which is that crime rates for people in economically disadvantaged positions are unsurprisingly higher. I was going to explain some of the others when I realized that in the context of this thread — namely comparing Europe to China in terms of ethnic diversity — these misleading statistics smell like a call to return to a ‘monocultural’ Europe. My grandparents have had pretty bad experiences with Germany’s last attempt at that; I therefore want to stress how dangerous it can be to present statistics like these as ‘neutral’.
- throwccp 4mo ago
  [dead]
- throwaway2037 4mo ago
  Are the foreign born in Germany excluding EU nationals?
  - frm88 4mo ago
    No, they are included. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
simianparrot 4mo ago
Social credit bonus for wild unfounded claims online is probably nice if you live in the top 5 megacities.
- aeve890 4mo ago
  >Social credit bonus People does still believe this shit?
- mfru 4mo ago
  Social credit does not exist the way you think it does
id00 4mo ago
I could barely exist in Shanghai when I visited it for a week earlier this year. The surveillance is suffocating. With all my disdain towards the way the West is going, the level of control and freedom can't be compared. Especially if you've ever experienced freedom taken from you (unfortunately, I have).
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- kopirgan 4mo ago
  Can you explain? What sort of surveillance that affects a casual visitor?!
  - id00 4mo ago
    Here is my experience in the center of Shanghai, very subjective of course: - I can't pay with my credit/debit cards there so I need to get their alipay pay app. There is KYC required to upload my government ID. - We stayed in a short rent apartment, so we had to temporarily register with government. Of course that requires uploading photos of me, my kids, and all our IDs - with a lot of apps banned there, you are essentially told which one you have to use - you need VPN - you go outside, there is always a police or some security in booth watching you. Of course cameras are also everywhere. - fences everywhere - don't walk on the nice lawn there, don't sit here, don't stand there. And the moment your kids do - the security / police will come - lack of public spaces (we couldn't find a playground, the one we eventually found was behind the fence) make the environment hostile and it almost feels like they don't want you outside
    - TylerE 4mo ago
      Wouldn't they have most of that just from customs/your passport? Not saying it isn't all rather dystopian, but, like, they have your ID as soon as you hit an airport.
      - throwaway2037 4mo ago
throwaway2037 4mo ago
> In China you have clean streets and low crime Finland and Taiwan has all of that with the added bonus of no Great Firewall of the Internet.

by flossly 4mo ago

kelnos 4mo ago

There are many places in the West with clean streets and low crime that don't use China's economic or political model.

includenotfound 4mo ago

[flagged]

conception 4mo ago
Texas at least disagrees with you - https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU01/20250122/117827/HHRG-119-JU01-20250122-SD004.pdf https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU01/20250122/117827/HHRG... Do you have statistics to back your assertions that disagree with this data?
- dmitrygr 4mo ago
  https://www.scup.com/doi/10.1080/14043858.2014.926062 https://www.scup.com/doi/10.1080/14043858.2014.926062 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611
- includenotfound 4mo ago
  I do in fact. Germany: https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/PolizeilicheKriminalstatistik/2024/Bund/Tatverdaechtige/BU-TV-22-T62-TV-Staatsangehoerigkeiten_xls.html https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Publikationen/Pol... Total N = ~2.2M Germans = ~1.2M (~58%) Non-Germans = ~900k (~42%) Population: Germans ~71M (~85%), foreign ~12M (~15%) Per-capita, non-Germans show up ~2.8x more. Approximate rates: Germans: ~1,786 per 100k (baseline) All Non-Germans: ~7,365 per 100k (~4.1× German rate) Syria: ~12,900 per 100k (~7.2×) Afghanistan: ~12,300 per 100k (~6.9×) Romania: ~8,450 per 100k (~4.7×) Turkey: ~6,660 per 100k (~3.7×) Poland: ~6,640 per 100k (~3.7×) Ukraine: ~5,130 per 100k (~2.9×) --- Some other countries (Switzerland, Denmark) also publish per-nationality data and it doesn't look any better. The other comment shows data from Norway/Finland/Sweden which is more of the same. The US is a different topic (but strong arguments with clear data can be made as well), so I'll refrain from engaging it here to avoid further derailing the thread.
  - lovich 4mo ago
    how does claiming that the US has strong arguments to support your point, but discussing them would derail the thread, when the person you were replying to was showing data from Texas, a US state?
  - menno-sh 4mo ago
    This is ignoring a lot of variables, the most obvious of which is that crime rates for people in economically disadvantaged positions are unsurprisingly higher. I was going to explain some of the others when I realized that in the context of this thread — namely comparing Europe to China in terms of ethnic diversity — these misleading statistics smell like a call to return to a ‘monocultural’ Europe. My grandparents have had pretty bad experiences with Germany’s last attempt at that; I therefore want to stress how dangerous it can be to present statistics like these as ‘neutral’.
throwccp 4mo ago
[dead]
throwaway2037 4mo ago
Are the foreign born in Germany excluding EU nationals?
- frm88 4mo ago
  No, they are included. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany

simianparrot 4mo ago

Social credit bonus for wild unfounded claims online is probably nice if you live in the top 5 megacities.

aeve890 4mo ago
>Social credit bonus People does still believe this shit?
mfru 4mo ago
Social credit does not exist the way you think it does

id00 4mo ago

I could barely exist in Shanghai when I visited it for a week earlier this year. The surveillance is suffocating. With all my disdain towards the way the West is going, the level of control and freedom can't be compared. Especially if you've ever experienced freedom taken from you (unfortunately, I have).

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
kopirgan 4mo ago
Can you explain? What sort of surveillance that affects a casual visitor?!
- id00 4mo ago
  Here is my experience in the center of Shanghai, very subjective of course: - I can't pay with my credit/debit cards there so I need to get their alipay pay app. There is KYC required to upload my government ID. - We stayed in a short rent apartment, so we had to temporarily register with government. Of course that requires uploading photos of me, my kids, and all our IDs - with a lot of apps banned there, you are essentially told which one you have to use - you need VPN - you go outside, there is always a police or some security in booth watching you. Of course cameras are also everywhere. - fences everywhere - don't walk on the nice lawn there, don't sit here, don't stand there. And the moment your kids do - the security / police will come - lack of public spaces (we couldn't find a playground, the one we eventually found was behind the fence) make the environment hostile and it almost feels like they don't want you outside
  - TylerE 4mo ago
    Wouldn't they have most of that just from customs/your passport? Not saying it isn't all rather dystopian, but, like, they have your ID as soon as you hit an airport.
    - throwaway2037 4mo ago

throwaway2037 4mo ago

> In China you have clean streets and low crime Finland and Taiwan has all of that with the added bonus of no Great Firewall of the Internet.