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B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

288 points by chanux 14y ago

sasfasfasffas 14y ago
Nook was the second major entry as a consumer e-reader but lost because they didn't think about user experience. You went into the store to download and buy ebooks? Convenience anyone? No? What about the lower secondary color screen before the color came out. Why? Then it was a rootable android device, not so bad, but they just didn't focus on what was important. Their online book store sucked compared to Amazon. They just couldn't compete. Also had a mortar business tying them down, but that isn't much of an excuse because Amazon had a ton of other stuff on their plate. Seriously, from what I hear from someone that interviewed- they had no clue what they were doing on the online side and wanted to reinvent it but didn't know how. It has been a huge fail. I like their mortar stores but I haven't shopped there is ages, so I imagine that others are the same. They need to drop the nook or at least completely reimagine it and rebrand it (nooks are for english muffins), start up a second online team completely physically separate from the current one hiring top talent for UX and focus on a non-backlit color e-ink screen for whatever the rebranded ereader is called. The mortar stores aren't cheap to run either, and most stores are way too huge for the amount they sell. That needs to change also. Basically, they need serious, serious help. It is a shame that B&N used to be the epitome of a bookstore, but now it is seriously flailing against a company that sells more other stuff than it does books. But who knows, maybe taxes will kill the Amazon giant.
pilif 14y ago
As far as I understood the article, this is about a second download of a book purchased some time ago. I think in this case, it's not as clear-cut as the article makes it out to be. To stay with the real world analogy: while the article is right that nothing will glue the pages of a physical book together once the credit card expires, it is also the case that purchasing a book once doesn't entitle you to go to the bookstore and demand another copy of the book because you lost your initial one. I can see a technical reason which prevents the redownload by locked accounts. Or rather, I can imagine the additional work such a feature could require - work that obviously isn't going to be paid for by anybody (or rather paid for by customers who do have valid accounts and buy more media) - the card of the affected account is expired after all. IMHO, if we want to demand that an electronic media purchase is a traditional sale, then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them.
- nathan_long 14y ago
  Excellent point. I really like the idea getting of an e-reader, but if I do, I will ONLY buy DRM-free content. I will do this with the understanding that I'm responsible for backing up my books. If I did understand the book to be licensed and DRMed, I would demand that my "rental" be labeled as such as come with a guaranteed period of availability via re-download.
- Profess 14y ago
  With out even the ability of backing up the files on the device how can we really agree with this point of view? If I buy a pulp book and my bookshelf breaks I can still pick up my books off the floor. If my e-reader for what ever reason stops working and I have to replace it then should the manufacturer have to claim responsibility for my losses?
- sami36 14y ago
  > ...then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them. oh Yes, We can. The reason we're entitled to it is the fact that DRM stands in the way of us customers backing up our purchases. If my eBook were in a format devoid of DRM & I could back it up by saving it in Droppbox or my external hard drive, then your argument would carry some weight.
  - CrossCircuit 14y ago
    I think your point here is valid - if backup options are restricted via DRM, then the company does have at the least a moral obligation to provide re-downloads. Companies like Barnes and Noble that probably have very thin margins would do well to enact business practices that gain them long-term customers.
  - pilif 14y ago
    To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one. I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have that one physical object which represents the content on it. If I lose it and don't have my account any more, well, too bad. Of course, by centralizing many books to one physical object, you risk losing much more content as you lose that physical object. But the advantage is that, in case it breaks, it can be repaired (which might be impossible with a physical book) Now. I know for a fact that this is how Kindle works: even if your account is gone, your books stay on your Kindle and you can continue to read them. I would assume it works the same for B&N in this case. Being able to infinitely redownload the books is a nice convenience that goes far beyond what a physical book would allow. Also, I haven't tried it, but these DRMed books are just files after all. It might be possible to back them up and later read them on the same device (again the physical book analogy) even if the account has been terminated.
sami36 14y ago
I don't think it's DRM related or a publisher requirement. I think it's of B&N own initiative to keep your credit card on file in order to facilitate potentially future purchases. Either way, it's misguided & customer hostile. as long as this policy is in effect, I'll never buy an ebook from them again.
- wildranter 14y ago
  I have another word for similar policies, sleazy.
  - R_Edward 14y ago
    Occam would probably disagree with you. Absent evidence of malevolent intent, I'd chalk this up to a mediocre designer who didn't ask enough questions of himself or his subject matter experts.
    - wildranter 14y ago
      I respectfully disagree. I think the reason is pure greed. Greed is a natural human feeling that usually comes from a basic survival instinct. That's why greed is deeply embedded in our society. Also, that's another reason why Vulcans are superior to humans.
      - R_Edward 14y ago
        Yes, greed is deeply embedded. But it rests on a bedrock of stupidity and incompetence. And even the dullest of greedy bastiges can figure out that if Money = Good, then pissing off the people who have it, and who, until you pissed them off, wanted to give you some, = Bad. No argument at all on the superiority of Vulcans (or whales, for that matter) to humans.
javajosh 14y ago
The simple fact is that the ebook experience sucks all the way around. I gave it a shot with the Nook Touch, and I really dislike it, even if DRM wasn't an issue. Over the years my subconcious has grown used to indexing the story according to certain physical properties of the book. "Oh yes, that happend about a cm in on the right side page, like halfway down" is something I might think- but this coordinate system doesn't work with an e-reader. Seeing the cover art each time counts, too. I also rather like (and miss) the small stains, tears and incidental damage that normal books get. There's also the matter of distraction - now that my book is a device I can't help but fiddle with it. Finally, even though the quality is very good on my Nook Touch, I can see the pixels and I find it distracting. Maybe some or all of these concerns will go away in time, but then there's also the (rather stunning) fact that ebooks are MORE expensive than the paperback - this, even though the cost of production is negligible, and typically you can't share or bequeath your e-library, etc. And then on top of all these objections B&N does something asinine like this...let's just say that I'll be perfectly happy reading paper books for a long long time.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- batiudrami 14y ago
  Your experience is with ereaders is nearly the complete opposite of mine (putting DRM aside, like you). I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark, I love that I can change the font size, I love that I can select a word and get an instant definition for it, and I love how light it is to carry around and much more comfortable to read with. I prefer them over real books in every way (though, I'm from Australia where a hardback is $50 and a paperback is around $20-$25, so ebooks are cheaper for me).
  - tolos 14y ago
    Don't forget the ease of one-handed reading, and the ability to lay the e-reader down, e.g. to type out a passage. Neither of those are convenient at all with the books I read, unless I want to horribly mangle my book. Unlike GP, I prefer to keep my books pristine.
vertis 14y ago
I would blame this on a badly designed system rather than deliberate attempt at DRM. i.e. Product owner goes to dev: We want to make sure that customers always have a valid credit card on file so that when they go to purchase it doesn't distract them (etc, etc). Dev makes it so that you can't do anything with the website until you've updated your expired credit card.
- aneth4 14y ago
  I agree and it created a shitty situation. But I have to believe B&N did not intentionally institute this policy and will quickly change it.
- RexRollman 14y ago
  Having worked at B&N, I believe this is the case, as a credit card is required to be on file even when paying for ebooks with a gift card.
yk 14y ago
The problem with ebooks (as with software and other files) is, that they are simpy not physical goods. From the viewpoint of a consumer, a nice advantage of files is the essentially zero costs of replacement, so that I can resonably expect a vendor to replace a copy lost due to an accident. (Unlike with a physical book, where replacement costs actual money.) On the other hand, I have the means of production for an ebook. ( A computer, production of files means copying, just as producing a car means copying a prototype.) This means, I can actually compete with the vendor of an ebook, by pirating it. ( A car does not need DRM, because I would need a factory before I can start to pirate it.) So I believe, that analogies like "glue the pages of a book shut" and "selling" are misleading. The much more interesting question is, what is a reasonable default licence for digital goods? Or to pose the question slightly differently, what can each side of a default licence agreement reasonable expect of each other?
- pseingatl 14y ago
  Are you suggesting that digital goods cannot be sold and can only be licensed? What is your basis for this? It seems to me that this was a sale of goods. The fact that the goods are in digital format is irrelevant. It is unlikely that the courts will treat the sale of a book the same as a software license. Ultimately sales of goods are governed by law, and one party is not permitted to breach their contracts.
  - yk 14y ago
    This depends on the exact meaning of sale. It is certainly possible to implement a license agreement, that looks very much like a sale of a physical object. However I think that such a license agreement would be unenforceable, essentially because a physical good has a certain uniqueness. It makes sense to talk about 'my car' which is distinct from 'your car.' ( And if someone steals 'my car', I am able to identify this specific car.) By contrast, I can not really talk about 'my mp3 file' because there is simply no difference between my file and any of its copies. This applies also to watermarked files, since given a copy of a watermarked file you can not determine if this specific representation of the file was created by the original licensee or from an intermediate copy. So the important point of me buying a book, is that a unique physical object becomes mine, by contrast there is no such thing as a unique digital object. [ IANAL, it is entirely possible, that there is some case law which defines a sale of software. But my point is, that this would be kind of a default license.] See also http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-content-is-a-public-good.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-cont... which had a huge influence on my thinking about digital goods. (Or economics in general.)
spohlenz 14y ago
This issue has nothing to do with DRM, and is simply the result of a system that requires an account to be in good standing (i.e. has a valid credit card) before any downloads can be made. Obviously this is an issue that should be fixed, but there isn't even any evidence that any attempts were made to contact B&N - just someone encountering an error message in B&N's software. I'm as against DRM as anyone else here but this is a non-story.
- talmand 14y ago
  I was thinking this too. By the way the article reads it has nothing to do with the DRM on the ebook itself. How can the DRM on the ebook be the problem if one cannot download the ebook in the first place? This is a customer service issue, not a DRM issue.
venomsnake 14y ago
I think that Louis CK really nailed down the way to distribute digital content. Few streams per key + a drm free download, that is up to you how to back up with no obligations after that for him.
dansingerman 14y ago
Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have implemented it. As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on the credit card details. Hence no more credit card, no more licence. One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is technically, (never mind the ethics), but knowing what I know, this is not any sort of surprise.
- thinkling 14y ago
  I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM (as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.
  - Samuel3407 14y ago
    I discoveried some nice article to help you resolve this problem: Remove drm from adobe: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-remove-drm-from-adobe.html http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-remove-drm-from-adobe.html How to share nook books: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-share-nook-books-with-my-friends.html http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-share-nook-books-with-my-frie...
  - dansingerman 14y ago
    The default Adobe DRM implementation requires that you need an Adobe ID (i.e. an account with Adobe) to access the book. (DRM licences are against Adobe accounts) The bigger players who use Adobe DRM (Like B&N) of course don't want this, so there are alternative schemes where you can use a token to represent the user that is not the Adobe ID. In the B&N case, I believe that token is based on the credit card details. You also only download the actual encrypted epub after the DRM licence has been applied. (The initial download is a small XML file which your Adobe RMSDK app uses to decide if you have access to the ebook) ergo, no valid credit card, no valid account to unlock DRM, and get access to the actual content file.
    - 14y ago
pseingatl 14y ago
There isn't a ''real world'' analogy. This is a sale of goods and as such is governed (in the USA) by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. All sales, whether the goods are digital or not, carry an implied warranty of merchantability. This means that the product sold can be used under normal circumstances. Here, the buyer received nothing for his money. Do not be distracted by the digital world of downloads, DRM and software licenses, the UCC nevertheless applies. B&N has stores all over the country and is subject to small claims courts and perhaps even class actions. After a few lawsuits they will wake up and stop this practice.
lucian303 14y ago
First suicide: 1gb of space on the Nook Tablet for user data. Second suicide: This B&N, RIP
justindocanto 14y ago
This website has not shown up properly for me once in the last 10 minutes... No style sheet, missing end of html or times out each time... Incase anybody from the site reads this.
epo 14y ago
This has nothing to do with DRM, it is a crappily designed customer authentication system. If B&N had any sense they would offer customers the ability to redownload their purchases at any time after say, 120 days, for an additional 25c.
- hullo 14y ago
  People can redownload their purchases at any time for 0 cents, whether it's 120 days or 3 years later. They just need to have a current credit card on file. Question the wisdom of that if you will, but there's absolutely no recharging people or disabling of access.
kabdib 14y ago
It's really simple: I buy ebooks, then break the DRM so that I can make a backup. If it wasn't possible to break the DRM, I wouldn't buy them. Non-DRM'd books are better, of course. I want my descendents to be able to read my e-books just as easily as they can read my physical books. So my conversions include collapsing rich text to plain text, which I am reasonably sure will survive format changes over the next 100 years.
- epochwolf 14y ago
  Exactly. I currently buy books on my kindle and use Calibre with plugins to strip the DRM on import. Before I had a kindle, I would use iTunes to purchase books and use Requiem to strip DRM from them. I don't go to the extreme of converting to plain text. Epub is a zipped collection of html. There should be tools to extract data from those for a very long time into the future.
- mikevm 14y ago
  Spot on. The whole DRM situation is ridiculous. I would never buy an eBook if I couldn't strip away the DRM. Same goes for music. Who in his/her right mind would buy content that he/she doesn't really own?
JimmaDaRustla 14y ago
I got the solution: cloud media! You must stream your product from a central server as you use it, and the server can ensure that you aren't reading more than one book at a time, nor are you reading the same book in multiple locations. I guess we are good ways away from that...
lnanek2 14y ago
Honestly, amazon has been pulling bullshit like this on me as well. I'm always flashing new ROMs and swapping phones for my job, many books on the amazon Kindle app simply refuse to download any more saying I've exceeded the license. ;/ They really need to put in the description that the book will be useless to me...
- turtlebits 14y ago
  Go into manage your Kindle and deregister your non-existent device accounts. Problem solved.
monochromatic 14y ago
> strip the drm off of the ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY on all your devices This attitude right here is part of the misunderstanding, and part of the problem. You haven't BOUGHT the ebook. You've paid for a license, and in all likelihood, that license prevents stripping the DRM.
- pjriot 14y ago
  http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-andrews/1113787874 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-and... Funny, the button clearly says "Buy now". Not "License now" or anything else. If retailers want to make that distinction clear thats fair enough, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with the attitude you refer to.
  - B-Con 14y ago
    "Buy now" makes sense because you would be buying a license. Although I do agree that the distinction between a product with DRM and a license to use a product with DRM does not seem well distinguished. Exactly what you are obtaining should be spelled out, at least in some form of legalese somewhere that you see when you buy the product, not just in some document buried on the website you're browsing.
    - pjriot 14y ago
      I don't see any mention of the fact that I'm buying a license on the page. Whatever about the hacker news set, but you can't honestly expect average consumers to pick up on this distinction without a very clear and obvious "DRM for dummies" tutorial. Legalese won't cut it. This nonsense is unethical and dishonest.
  - monochromatic 14y ago
    That's kind of my point. The fact that retailers don't make this clear is a problem. Regardless though, all you're buying is a license. What could it even mean "buy an ebook?"

288 points by chanux 14y ago

Nook was the second major entry as a consumer e-reader but lost because they didn't think about user experience. You went into the store to download and buy ebooks? Convenience anyone? No? What about the lower secondary color screen before the color came out. Why? Then it was a rootable android device, not so bad, but they just didn't focus on what was important. Their online book store sucked compared to Amazon. They just couldn't compete. Also had a mortar business tying them down, but that isn't much of an excuse because Amazon had a ton of other stuff on their plate. Seriously, from what I hear from someone that interviewed- they had no clue what they were doing on the online side and wanted to reinvent it but didn't know how. It has been a huge fail. I like their mortar stores but I haven't shopped there is ages, so I imagine that others are the same. They need to drop the nook or at least completely reimagine it and rebrand it (nooks are for english muffins), start up a second online team completely physically separate from the current one hiring top talent for UX and focus on a non-backlit color e-ink screen for whatever the rebranded ereader is called. The mortar stores aren't cheap to run either, and most stores are way too huge for the amount they sell. That needs to change also. Basically, they need serious, serious help. It is a shame that B&N used to be the epitome of a bookstore, but now it is seriously flailing against a company that sells more other stuff than it does books. But who knows, maybe taxes will kill the Amazon giant.

pilif 14y ago

As far as I understood the article, this is about a second download of a book purchased some time ago. I think in this case, it's not as clear-cut as the article makes it out to be. To stay with the real world analogy: while the article is right that nothing will glue the pages of a physical book together once the credit card expires, it is also the case that purchasing a book once doesn't entitle you to go to the bookstore and demand another copy of the book because you lost your initial one. I can see a technical reason which prevents the redownload by locked accounts. Or rather, I can imagine the additional work such a feature could require - work that obviously isn't going to be paid for by anybody (or rather paid for by customers who do have valid accounts and buy more media) - the card of the affected account is expired after all. IMHO, if we want to demand that an electronic media purchase is a traditional sale, then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them.

nathan_long 14y ago
Excellent point. I really like the idea getting of an e-reader, but if I do, I will ONLY buy DRM-free content. I will do this with the understanding that I'm responsible for backing up my books. If I did understand the book to be licensed and DRMed, I would demand that my "rental" be labeled as such as come with a guaranteed period of availability via re-download.
Profess 14y ago
With out even the ability of backing up the files on the device how can we really agree with this point of view? If I buy a pulp book and my bookshelf breaks I can still pick up my books off the floor. If my e-reader for what ever reason stops working and I have to replace it then should the manufacturer have to claim responsibility for my losses?
sami36 14y ago
> ...then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it might be to create them. oh Yes, We can. The reason we're entitled to it is the fact that DRM stands in the way of us customers backing up our purchases. If my eBook were in a format devoid of DRM & I could back it up by saving it in Droppbox or my external hard drive, then your argument would carry some weight.
- CrossCircuit 14y ago
  I think your point here is valid - if backup options are restricted via DRM, then the company does have at the least a moral obligation to provide re-downloads. Companies like Barnes and Noble that probably have very thin margins would do well to enact business practices that gain them long-term customers.
- pilif 14y ago
  To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a new one. I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the real world exists: I have that one physical object which represents the content on it. If I lose it and don't have my account any more, well, too bad. Of course, by centralizing many books to one physical object, you risk losing much more content as you lose that physical object. But the advantage is that, in case it breaks, it can be repaired (which might be impossible with a physical book) Now. I know for a fact that this is how Kindle works: even if your account is gone, your books stay on your Kindle and you can continue to read them. I would assume it works the same for B&N in this case. Being able to infinitely redownload the books is a nice convenience that goes far beyond what a physical book would allow. Also, I haven't tried it, but these DRMed books are just files after all. It might be possible to back them up and later read them on the same device (again the physical book analogy) even if the account has been terminated.

sami36 14y ago

I don't think it's DRM related or a publisher requirement. I think it's of B&N own initiative to keep your credit card on file in order to facilitate potentially future purchases. Either way, it's misguided & customer hostile. as long as this policy is in effect, I'll never buy an ebook from them again.

wildranter 14y ago
I have another word for similar policies, sleazy.
- R_Edward 14y ago
  Occam would probably disagree with you. Absent evidence of malevolent intent, I'd chalk this up to a mediocre designer who didn't ask enough questions of himself or his subject matter experts.
  - wildranter 14y ago
    I respectfully disagree. I think the reason is pure greed. Greed is a natural human feeling that usually comes from a basic survival instinct. That's why greed is deeply embedded in our society. Also, that's another reason why Vulcans are superior to humans.
    - R_Edward 14y ago
      Yes, greed is deeply embedded. But it rests on a bedrock of stupidity and incompetence. And even the dullest of greedy bastiges can figure out that if Money = Good, then pissing off the people who have it, and who, until you pissed them off, wanted to give you some, = Bad. No argument at all on the superiority of Vulcans (or whales, for that matter) to humans.

javajosh 14y ago

The simple fact is that the ebook experience sucks all the way around. I gave it a shot with the Nook Touch, and I really dislike it, even if DRM wasn't an issue. Over the years my subconcious has grown used to indexing the story according to certain physical properties of the book. "Oh yes, that happend about a cm in on the right side page, like halfway down" is something I might think- but this coordinate system doesn't work with an e-reader. Seeing the cover art each time counts, too. I also rather like (and miss) the small stains, tears and incidental damage that normal books get. There's also the matter of distraction - now that my book is a device I can't help but fiddle with it. Finally, even though the quality is very good on my Nook Touch, I can see the pixels and I find it distracting. Maybe some or all of these concerns will go away in time, but then there's also the (rather stunning) fact that ebooks are MORE expensive than the paperback - this, even though the cost of production is negligible, and typically you can't share or bequeath your e-library, etc. And then on top of all these objections B&N does something asinine like this...let's just say that I'll be perfectly happy reading paper books for a long long time.

deleted 14y ago
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batiudrami 14y ago
Your experience is with ereaders is nearly the complete opposite of mine (putting DRM aside, like you). I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark, I love that I can change the font size, I love that I can select a word and get an instant definition for it, and I love how light it is to carry around and much more comfortable to read with. I prefer them over real books in every way (though, I'm from Australia where a hardback is $50 and a paperback is around $20-$25, so ebooks are cheaper for me).
- tolos 14y ago
  Don't forget the ease of one-handed reading, and the ability to lay the e-reader down, e.g. to type out a passage. Neither of those are convenient at all with the books I read, unless I want to horribly mangle my book. Unlike GP, I prefer to keep my books pristine.

vertis 14y ago

I would blame this on a badly designed system rather than deliberate attempt at DRM. i.e. Product owner goes to dev: We want to make sure that customers always have a valid credit card on file so that when they go to purchase it doesn't distract them (etc, etc). Dev makes it so that you can't do anything with the website until you've updated your expired credit card.

aneth4 14y ago
I agree and it created a shitty situation. But I have to believe B&N did not intentionally institute this policy and will quickly change it.
RexRollman 14y ago
Having worked at B&N, I believe this is the case, as a credit card is required to be on file even when paying for ebooks with a gift card.

yk 14y ago

The problem with ebooks (as with software and other files) is, that they are simpy not physical goods. From the viewpoint of a consumer, a nice advantage of files is the essentially zero costs of replacement, so that I can resonably expect a vendor to replace a copy lost due to an accident. (Unlike with a physical book, where replacement costs actual money.) On the other hand, I have the means of production for an ebook. ( A computer, production of files means copying, just as producing a car means copying a prototype.) This means, I can actually compete with the vendor of an ebook, by pirating it. ( A car does not need DRM, because I would need a factory before I can start to pirate it.) So I believe, that analogies like "glue the pages of a book shut" and "selling" are misleading. The much more interesting question is, what is a reasonable default licence for digital goods? Or to pose the question slightly differently, what can each side of a default licence agreement reasonable expect of each other?

pseingatl 14y ago
Are you suggesting that digital goods cannot be sold and can only be licensed? What is your basis for this? It seems to me that this was a sale of goods. The fact that the goods are in digital format is irrelevant. It is unlikely that the courts will treat the sale of a book the same as a software license. Ultimately sales of goods are governed by law, and one party is not permitted to breach their contracts.
- yk 14y ago
  This depends on the exact meaning of sale. It is certainly possible to implement a license agreement, that looks very much like a sale of a physical object. However I think that such a license agreement would be unenforceable, essentially because a physical good has a certain uniqueness. It makes sense to talk about 'my car' which is distinct from 'your car.' ( And if someone steals 'my car', I am able to identify this specific car.) By contrast, I can not really talk about 'my mp3 file' because there is simply no difference between my file and any of its copies. This applies also to watermarked files, since given a copy of a watermarked file you can not determine if this specific representation of the file was created by the original licensee or from an intermediate copy. So the important point of me buying a book, is that a unique physical object becomes mine, by contrast there is no such thing as a unique digital object. [ IANAL, it is entirely possible, that there is some case law which defines a sale of software. But my point is, that this would be kind of a default license.] See also http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-content-is-a-public-good.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-cont... which had a huge influence on my thinking about digital goods. (Or economics in general.)

spohlenz 14y ago

This issue has nothing to do with DRM, and is simply the result of a system that requires an account to be in good standing (i.e. has a valid credit card) before any downloads can be made. Obviously this is an issue that should be fixed, but there isn't even any evidence that any attempts were made to contact B&N - just someone encountering an error message in B&N's software. I'm as against DRM as anyone else here but this is a non-story.

talmand 14y ago
I was thinking this too. By the way the article reads it has nothing to do with the DRM on the ebook itself. How can the DRM on the ebook be the problem if one cannot download the ebook in the first place? This is a customer service issue, not a DRM issue.

venomsnake 14y ago

I think that Louis CK really nailed down the way to distribute digital content. Few streams per key + a drm free download, that is up to you how to back up with no obligations after that for him.

dansingerman 14y ago

Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have implemented it. As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on the credit card details. Hence no more credit card, no more licence. One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is technically, (never mind the ethics), but knowing what I know, this is not any sort of surprise.

thinkling 14y ago
I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM (as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.
- Samuel3407 14y ago
  I discoveried some nice article to help you resolve this problem: Remove drm from adobe: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-remove-drm-from-adobe.html http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-remove-drm-from-adobe.html How to share nook books: http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-share-nook-books-with-my-friends.html http://www.epubsoft.com/how-to-share-nook-books-with-my-frie...
- dansingerman 14y ago
  The default Adobe DRM implementation requires that you need an Adobe ID (i.e. an account with Adobe) to access the book. (DRM licences are against Adobe accounts) The bigger players who use Adobe DRM (Like B&N) of course don't want this, so there are alternative schemes where you can use a token to represent the user that is not the Adobe ID. In the B&N case, I believe that token is based on the credit card details. You also only download the actual encrypted epub after the DRM licence has been applied. (The initial download is a small XML file which your Adobe RMSDK app uses to decide if you have access to the ebook) ergo, no valid credit card, no valid account to unlock DRM, and get access to the actual content file.
  - 14y ago

pseingatl 14y ago

There isn't a ''real world'' analogy. This is a sale of goods and as such is governed (in the USA) by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. All sales, whether the goods are digital or not, carry an implied warranty of merchantability. This means that the product sold can be used under normal circumstances. Here, the buyer received nothing for his money. Do not be distracted by the digital world of downloads, DRM and software licenses, the UCC nevertheless applies. B&N has stores all over the country and is subject to small claims courts and perhaps even class actions. After a few lawsuits they will wake up and stop this practice.

lucian303 14y ago

First suicide: 1gb of space on the Nook Tablet for user data. Second suicide: This B&N, RIP

justindocanto 14y ago

This website has not shown up properly for me once in the last 10 minutes... No style sheet, missing end of html or times out each time... Incase anybody from the site reads this.

epo 14y ago

This has nothing to do with DRM, it is a crappily designed customer authentication system. If B&N had any sense they would offer customers the ability to redownload their purchases at any time after say, 120 days, for an additional 25c.

hullo 14y ago
People can redownload their purchases at any time for 0 cents, whether it's 120 days or 3 years later. They just need to have a current credit card on file. Question the wisdom of that if you will, but there's absolutely no recharging people or disabling of access.

kabdib 14y ago

It's really simple: I buy ebooks, then break the DRM so that I can make a backup. If it wasn't possible to break the DRM, I wouldn't buy them. Non-DRM'd books are better, of course. I want my descendents to be able to read my e-books just as easily as they can read my physical books. So my conversions include collapsing rich text to plain text, which I am reasonably sure will survive format changes over the next 100 years.

epochwolf 14y ago
Exactly. I currently buy books on my kindle and use Calibre with plugins to strip the DRM on import. Before I had a kindle, I would use iTunes to purchase books and use Requiem to strip DRM from them. I don't go to the extreme of converting to plain text. Epub is a zipped collection of html. There should be tools to extract data from those for a very long time into the future.
mikevm 14y ago
Spot on. The whole DRM situation is ridiculous. I would never buy an eBook if I couldn't strip away the DRM. Same goes for music. Who in his/her right mind would buy content that he/she doesn't really own?

JimmaDaRustla 14y ago

I got the solution: cloud media! You must stream your product from a central server as you use it, and the server can ensure that you aren't reading more than one book at a time, nor are you reading the same book in multiple locations. I guess we are good ways away from that...

lnanek2 14y ago

Honestly, amazon has been pulling bullshit like this on me as well. I'm always flashing new ROMs and swapping phones for my job, many books on the amazon Kindle app simply refuse to download any more saying I've exceeded the license. ;/ They really need to put in the description that the book will be useless to me...

turtlebits 14y ago
Go into manage your Kindle and deregister your non-existent device accounts. Problem solved.

monochromatic 14y ago

> strip the drm off of the ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY on all your devices This attitude right here is part of the misunderstanding, and part of the problem. You haven't BOUGHT the ebook. You've paid for a license, and in all likelihood, that license prevents stripping the DRM.

pjriot 14y ago
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-andrews/1113787874 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-and... Funny, the button clearly says "Buy now". Not "License now" or anything else. If retailers want to make that distinction clear thats fair enough, otherwise I'm perfectly happy with the attitude you refer to.
- B-Con 14y ago
  "Buy now" makes sense because you would be buying a license. Although I do agree that the distinction between a product with DRM and a license to use a product with DRM does not seem well distinguished. Exactly what you are obtaining should be spelled out, at least in some form of legalese somewhere that you see when you buy the product, not just in some document buried on the website you're browsing.
  - pjriot 14y ago
    I don't see any mention of the fact that I'm buying a license on the page. Whatever about the hacker news set, but you can't honestly expect average consumers to pick up on this distinction without a very clear and obvious "DRM for dummies" tutorial. Legalese won't cut it. This nonsense is unethical and dishonest.
- monochromatic 14y ago
  That's kind of my point. The fact that retailers don't make this clear is a problem. Regardless though, all you're buying is a license. What could it even mean "buy an ebook?"