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Major P2P issues in Israel and possibly other Middle East countries
- wook__ 4mo ago[flagged]
- tamimio 4mo ago[dead]
- babuskov 4mo agoThe rabbit hole started as a major P2P issue in Israel and possibly other middle east countries and further investigations revealed it seems to be a worldwide problem.
- tancop 4mo agoworldwide means israel russia and china so far. all countries that dont exactly like internet freedom and have a long history of spying and censorship. this might be a side effect of some government policy against p2p networks designed to make it harder to bypass censoring isps.
- xyst 4mo ago[flagged]
- IAmGraydon 4mo agoDon't these systems usually use a splitter, thereby adding zero latency?
- sillysaurusx 4mo agoHow do they inspect traffic when most is https?
- RossBencina 4mo agoIn this case we're talking about P2P traffic, which is generally not HTTPS. The linked issue references WebRTC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC
- Gigachad 4mo agoEncrypted by Cloudflare, so they just use the keys to decrypt it again.
- koito17 4mo agoMany organizations, surprisingly, still do things like using Kubernetes with TLS terminated at the ingress. In that case, you just need the splitter in the same network as the nodes hosting the ingress controller. Or inspect the unencrypted traffic within the cluster. It takes a non-trivial amount of work to set up a service mesh (and mutual TLS between services), so many k8s clusters end up with unencrypted traffic inside the cluster network.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago> It takes a non-trivial amount of work to set up a service mesh I feel like configuring wireguard between a group of physical hosts is fairly trivial. After all I do it semi-manually in order to access my LAN when I'm elsewhere and I'm certainly no expert sysadmin.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- RossBencina 4mo agoYou think IDF-grade packet inspection causes lag?
- make3 4mo agoGovernment-controlled inspection wouldn't be solved by switching to older DLLs (unless the code itself is compromised, which is unlikely for video game code)
- picofarad 4mo agoHm, I have always wanted to use this to play couch co-op remotely but is this even the same "service" that provides that? Looks like they tracked it to a steam update in March, and there's a workaround for at lest 3 games that involves all players copying steamwebrtc.dll to the game's ./binaries folder.
- jofzar 4mo agoI know I'm just preaching to the choir here but my favourite thing about open source/published source libraries/applications is discussions on bug reports/pr's like this. It's just something so heartwarming of multiple people coming together to describe their symptoms, workarounds and theories of what could be causing it.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- cedws 4mo agoGitHub discussions used to be so much higher quality though when the platform was for professionals. Now, I see so many discussions that devolve into practically being reddit/4chan threads. Another reason to leave.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 4mo agoI feel like it's gotten more professional. 10+ years ago people were dropping the hard R in pull request reviews, now everyone is acting like LinkedIn-speak and Stars will get them their next job
- rezonant 4mo ago...What? Is this the Linus Sebastian misconception of what the hard R is?
- thenthenthen 4mo agoMmm im in China and played a third party game through steams Spacewar dev game (enabling steam p2p i think) like 3 weeks ago and it worked fine.
- RossBencina 4mo agoWild hypothesising here on HN but if you read to the end of the GH issue users have been reporting that STUN has been failing (i.e. no P2P link establishment, fallback to high-latency relay servers.) Multiple users have been able to work around the issue by manually substituting older Valve WebRTC dlls. I'd love to read a postmortem from the Valve devs.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- komali2 4mo agoValve fascinates me because the devs there occasionally seem to be simply the best on earth in a given field, but despite that, bizarre bugs will persist for a long time. My favorite was how steam in home streaming from a PC to a steam deck wouldn't work if the steam deck had an Ethernet and wifi connection - one of the connections had to be disabled or the stream would always crash. Maybe they need a few average devs there to spend time sweeping up behind the paragons that are pushing the envelope into these features existing at all.
- stackghost 4mo agoValve famously has a very flat org structure so it's possible that that problem just isn't sexy enough for someone to pick it up on their own, without being told by a higher-up. I wish they offered remote; I'd happily work there doing those sorts of unglamorous bug fixes. High-reliability engineering is my jam.
- PeterHolzwarth 4mo agoThey say they have a flat structure. People who have worked there, despite some axe-grinding, indicate otherwise.
- formerly_proven 4mo agogrug tribal animal, tribe always there even when chief say is not
- sph 4mo agoPeople keep blaming the flat org, as if conventionally-organised companies never had any bugs or never focused on very visible and marketable features rather than bug fix. In fact, the flat org allows a random person to work on a niche bug management doesn’t seem to care about, which wouldn’t be possible if you had a boss breathing down your neck.
- mhitza 4mo agoMy favorite bug family, that somehow to sneak in every time, is how their react frontend (or whatever the store runs) manages to semi-crash and the controller inputs are no longer recognized. I kind of hope at least they'll fix such issues permanently before the steam machine release.
- gacgacgac 4mo agoMy unpopular opinion: Valve is basically a parasite or a landlord. They've been so successful it's hard to imagine a world without them, and they say "you gotta give the parasite its due" and we believe them and comply. It's been kept around because they treat their customers ok, but they absolutely exsanguinate their developers. And their engineering culture is... odd. They hire senior people and then let them all fuck sound aimlessly. Their APIs are terrible, their infrastructure is all over the place, they still have patch Tuesdays. But because they are the landlord that owns every house in town, what are you going to do, not pay rent? Gabe is out there cruising the world in a billion dollar yacht, eating thousand dollar meals. All that came off the backs of developers who actually make the games.
- usea 4mo ago> It's been kept around because they treat their customers ok, but they absolutely exsanguinate their developers. This is true, but "treat their customers ok" goes a long way. When everybody else severely abuses their customers, the one company that doesn't generates a lot of goodwill.
- CursedSilicon 4mo agoI'd question the idea that they treat developers poorly. Epic Games Store exists and Famously beats Steam (and others) over the head by charging only a 12% fee Hell, they even buy timed exclusive access to certain games And yet. Steam persists
- fc417fc802 4mo agoI lack an informed opinion on the matter but I have to wonder what you think the one thing has to do with the other? Developers have very little choice but to go where the customers are.
- CursedSilicon 4mo agoWhy aren't the customers going to Epic Game Store? It's the PC, after all. It's explicitly not a walled garden
- chandler5555 4mo agointeresting, people speculated that Street Fighter6 went from P2P to relay a few months ago on one of the updates. never wouldve thought it would be actually a valve issue
- duckduckman 4mo agoI think what we’re seeing here isnt Valve messing up but rather the middle east conflict expanded to cyberspace and spilling over to impact civilians. Look at the timing and affected countries. China isnt also exactly known for free internet. WebRTC works as fallback. WebRTC is encrypted and cant be used for much else. STUN in the otherhand is unencrypted and the protocol itself can be used for DDoS reflection/amplification. I would not be surprised if this is somehow weaponized and/or blocked/analyzed in real time that then breaks the connectivity.
- Georgelemental 4mo ago[flagged]
- 7bit 4mo agoCalm down, he meant civilians. No need to stir up drama.
- RobotToaster 4mo ago[flagged]
- 7bit 4mo agoThat has NOTHING to do what's being discussed here. Stop trying to escalate the topic.
- Georgelemental 4mo agoCivilians have died by the tens of thousands in these wars, starting long before random gamers far from the killing and dying started having connection issues
- 7bit 4mo agoThat has NOTHING to do what's being discussed here. Stop trying to escalate the topic.
- 0xb4k4 4mo agoThe title make it seems like it's broken everywhere...
- patspam 4mo agoI blame Bricks and Minifigs
- sammy2255 4mo agoIs this a bug on Valve? Or is it simply a case of "My ISP is fucking with my internet traffic and they won't admit it please help me"
- bigibas123 4mo agoReading the github thread points to a case of: "My country's governemt mandated it's ISPs fuck with my internet traffic, but steam P2P stuff used to not be affected but now is" across mutiple countries. People have found it works again if they roll back some of steam's dlls so Valve can probably fix ir.
- ai_fry_ur_brain 4mo ago[flagged]
- po1nt 4mo agoUnnecessarily political. Israel children are not the one who are cheering the war, nor fighting in it.
- ai_fry_ur_brain 4mo agoI never said they were.. I was pointing out how the themes from the Zone of Interest match the reality they were inspired by.
- throwaway2037 4mo agoTitle does not match GitHub issue: "Major P2P issues in Israel and possibly other middle east countries"
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- raincole 4mo ago> in Israel and possibly other middle east countries Why did you leave this part of title out? For clicks?
- etiam 4mo agoYou've been here long enough to understand that would exceed the title character limit.
- raincole 4mo agoI just tested it. Copied&pasted the original title into submit form. Nope. Right within the limit.
- 7bit 4mo agoIt's so funny when people come up with these arguments so confidently and then seeing them getting disproved so quick. Bro was never more glad there's anonymity on the internet
- hackboyfly 4mo agoYour comment reads like a tweet. But I agree with you!
- etiam 4mo ago[flagged]
- vitally3643 4mo ago"You are factually incorrect" is not moving the goalposts. Shifting to a completely unrelated argument is moving the goalposts because you can't stand to be wrong.
- Ukv 4mo agoetiam's right that "in Israel and possibly other middle east countries" wouldn't fit onto the HN title, which is relevant to raincole's clickbait accusation. The original Github issue title fits, but that doesn't specify "Valve" or the timeframe. Not that it'd be particularly hard to reword to fit all information. Feel like things are getting unnecessarily agitated ("You've been here long enough to understand", "you can't stand to be wrong", "Bro was never more glad there's anonymity on the internet", etc.) for no real reason.
- 59nadir 4mo agoWhat an absolute dud of a submission, I can't believe this got so many upvotes. I guess people saw "Valve" in the title and figured it must be important, even though the content of the issue doesn't even line up with the title.
- gafferongames 4mo agoPaging Fletcher Dunn
- HDBaseT 4mo agoWhats he going to do? Stop the Israel conflict?
- gafferongames 4mo agoNah. Fix the bug in their NAT code and/or route around bad network performance by deploying more relays in the Middle East with different hosting providers. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/multiplayer/steamdatagramrelay https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/multiplayer/stea...
- 12345hn6789 4mo ago@dang, title should be updated: `Major P2P issues in Israel and possibly other middle east countries`
- some_random 4mo agoThe age of people all across the world being able to just connect to each other other the internet is coming to an end. I wish the internet was still a business backend and hobbyist playground but I'm not sure it ever was just that.
- saidnooneever 4mo agothis looks like not Valve issue. the problems noted seem to indicate only countries which very aggressivly scan and filter connections. P2p is very sensitive to this. SDR is a relay network, and encrypted, so like onionrouting etc. its well known malicious actors can abuse it by publishing a p2p game and running coms over SDR via that game... you can imagine that people want to inspect this traffic in these regions..
- sathyayoshi 4mo ago[dead]
- ulveclok 4mo agoThis Steam problem has affected all countries worldwide. There are confirmations on twitter from european, japanese, and other residents of "free" countries. The fact that only israelis, chinese and russians are complaining doesnt mean its related to their governments. Its just that in "free" countries Steam servers (SDR) are located throughout the country, while in "non-free" countries these servers may not exist at all. For example, to play with a neighbor both russian players need to connect to Sweden. I hope you know the geography and can predict the ping depending on how far a russian player might be from Sweden.