4 ms·

It’s definitely actively bad to involve a device in the vast majority of education. And, it’s a purely selfish thing by tech companies to insert themselves into

by mlsu 4mo ago

It’s definitely actively bad to involve a device in the vast majority of education. And, it’s a purely selfish thing by tech companies to insert themselves into education. A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class.

s5300 4mo ago
[dead]
account42 4mo ago
Now that's just needlessly extreme in the other direction. Students will be seeing devices much earlier than that just because their peers will use them so it makes sense to educate them on their proper use and dangers much earlier than college. It just doesn't make sense to cram them into every subject because not using one is outdated.
- skydhash 4mo ago
  Students also see power drills and cars, and schools don’t use them as part of the curriculum. I have a lot of computing device and still believes in real books and pen or paper for learning anything. The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Even those TI calculators can be overkill. I’ve only used one in college, and it was for a few exams about polar coordinates and transmission lines, IIRC. For everything else, the simpler scientific calculators were enough. Multiplying matrices and graphing functions doesn’t take that much time at high school and undergraduate level.
  - smcg 4mo ago
    shop class and drivers ed used to be offered by schools...
    - tracker1 4mo ago
      But you didn't include them in your English or Math classes. They were optional courses, and for older students, not K-6.
  - VortexLain 4mo ago
    > The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Although this is the case for many people, I personally struggle to process information and write it on paper at the same time. Thus, I strongly prefer digital note-taking and use Obsidian or just vim instead of paper.
    - tracker1 4mo ago
      I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't see how typing it into a computer is significantly different than writing it on paper. Is there something stopping you, or anyone from writing it down and taking notes in class and then reviewing it later as needed? Not just process it in lecture time, but regurgitate it to physical form for later review. Also, I would definitely constrain this into educational groups, where K-6 are much different from college (post mandatory) education.
      - dmbche 4mo ago
        If I may, people write (with pens) slower than than can speak, and thus to take good notes you need to synthesize the material you are being explained. You need to understand what you're writing. Many people can type as fast/faster than they talk, and when typing it is possible to try and type verbatim what is being said. In this case, there is no understanding. (If you've ever taken a class not all that is said is pertinent and not all that is pertinent is said) I personally don't revisit my written notes their purpose is uniquely for me to remember/understand what I've written.
        wink 4mo ago
        I highly doubt this is unique. Some teachers (at least when I was in school) said stuff, repeated it, no problem writing it verbatim. Some others put it on the board for you to copy it verbatim, and later in uni.. most people definitely did not type fast enough to capture every word. Writing down stuff has always been what you make of it.
        4mo ago
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
bix6 4mo ago
I learned typing in 3rd grade iirc. That seems reasonable for a fundamental skill.
- doubled112 4mo ago
  My kids are in grade 3 and 6 and nobody ever taught them to type. They just handed them a Chromebook and assumed they know what they're doing. It is a skill, but everybody seems to think it will just happen on its own.
  - toast0 4mo ago
    The problem is everyone knows you learn to type when you get on IRC, but you can't put elementary school kids on IRC.
    - doubled112 4mo ago
      Why not? I was in elementary school on IRC. ASL ;-) ?
      - toast0 4mo ago
        I'm sure you turned out fine. But the school district can't put a bunch of kids on IRC, it'll look bad.
        breppp 4mo ago
        I wouldn't put any kids through some of the stuff I've seen on IRC
        wink 4mo ago
        I wouldn't put my IRC friends through some of the stuff I've seen in school. /s
        toast0 4mo ago
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
swiftcoder 4mo ago
> A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class. Are you really trying to put the genie back in the bottle to the extent of making high schoolers write all their coursework by hand? Or maybe we should bring back the typewriter for distraction-free essay writing...
- delta_p_delta_x 4mo ago
  > making high schoolers write all their coursework by hand You make this sound like it is some long-gone practice. I was writing maths by hand as recently as 2020 in university, for my CS-associated maths courses (linear algebra, calculus, physics for computer graphics, etc). In pre-university essentially all coursework was done by hand, and the national exams are all still handwritten.
  - wink 4mo ago
    Writing it down by hand and then doing OCR on a high quality photo is a completely different ball game than writing it down and... not having it in digital form though. I'm not disagreeing at all here, I tried live latexing my math courses and it was hard. I wish I had had access to a cellphone + good digitization back then. (just scanning it in was kinda pointless and I graduated about the time Android came out)
    - delta_p_delta_x 4mo ago
      > I tried live latexing my math courses This was by far the biggest time sink in my maths courses, and frankly, a giant waste of time. Sure, the end result looked beautiful but I think I understood less of it than if I'd just written it all down on A4 ruled paper in gel pen.
  - vrighter 4mo ago
    I chose a hybrid method (I don't study anymore, this is just for personal stuff). I bought a cheap graphics tablet, and still handwrite my math, but on a digital whiteboard on my PC so I can save and take backups of it, and waste less paper. But I still get the tactility, and its associated benefits (the act of handwriting something helps you remember it better)
nradov 4mo ago
You've got to be kidding. Writing longhand was always a miserable experience for me no matter what technique or pen I used. Typing on a keyboard is so much faster and more fluent.
- buellerbueller 4mo ago
  >Typing on a keyboard is so much faster and more fluent. ...and studies show, inferior for recall: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-writing-by-hand-is-better-for-memory-and-learning/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-writing-by-ha...
  - joveian 4mo ago
    Interesting article, although it does raise a few questions for me. I can see handwriting being uniquely important when learning to read but beyond that it would seem to just be suggesting that directly translating the same note taking to using a direct-mapped keyboard is a bad idea. But what about more complex input methods like for Chinese or a chording stenograph? Is there a distinct point where brain activity pops to wider activity? Do other computer based activities like correcting typos or non-computer activities like wiggling your finger to draw the shape of the first letter of each word engage more activity similar to handwriting? If needing a summary is the main difference, that seems like an easy thing to incorporate into digital note taking. Learning to read I can see that handwriting directly relates but beyond that it seems like there must be more effective ways to engage with the material than just making the writing method more complex. I'd say the same about lectures; interacting with someone who understands the material can be quite valuable but spending a lot of time listening to the same thing that could be read can't be the most effective way to learn even if the complexity of the transmission does help some with memory. I hope this type of research goes beyond basic handwriting vs typing and looks into the effectiveness of additional ways of engaging with information. For example, I like "don't guess" as a major principle of learning (per B.F. Skinner) to cultivate awareness of how reliable your memory is and avoid remembering incorrect answers as much as possible. The process of determining and looking up things that you aren't fairly certain about seems like something that could also engage wider brain activity and do so in a way that is more directly relevant to what you are learning.
justsomehnguy 4mo ago
This is how you get people who can't comperhend why they can't open Thesis.LNK from a thumbdrive.
hgoel 4mo ago
I can already tell that you would've been the equivalent of the adults that made life hell for me as a teen with their awful heavy handed opinions and interjections.

by mlsu 4mo ago

s5300 4mo ago

[dead]

account42 4mo ago

Now that's just needlessly extreme in the other direction. Students will be seeing devices much earlier than that just because their peers will use them so it makes sense to educate them on their proper use and dangers much earlier than college. It just doesn't make sense to cram them into every subject because not using one is outdated.

skydhash 4mo ago
Students also see power drills and cars, and schools don’t use them as part of the curriculum. I have a lot of computing device and still believes in real books and pen or paper for learning anything. The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Even those TI calculators can be overkill. I’ve only used one in college, and it was for a few exams about polar coordinates and transmission lines, IIRC. For everything else, the simpler scientific calculators were enough. Multiplying matrices and graphing functions doesn’t take that much time at high school and undergraduate level.
- smcg 4mo ago
  shop class and drivers ed used to be offered by schools...
  - tracker1 4mo ago
    But you didn't include them in your English or Math classes. They were optional courses, and for older students, not K-6.
- VortexLain 4mo ago
  > The mechanical actions and the physical presence really helps in retention of the materials. Although this is the case for many people, I personally struggle to process information and write it on paper at the same time. Thus, I strongly prefer digital note-taking and use Obsidian or just vim instead of paper.
  - tracker1 4mo ago
    I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't see how typing it into a computer is significantly different than writing it on paper. Is there something stopping you, or anyone from writing it down and taking notes in class and then reviewing it later as needed? Not just process it in lecture time, but regurgitate it to physical form for later review. Also, I would definitely constrain this into educational groups, where K-6 are much different from college (post mandatory) education.
    - dmbche 4mo ago
      If I may, people write (with pens) slower than than can speak, and thus to take good notes you need to synthesize the material you are being explained. You need to understand what you're writing. Many people can type as fast/faster than they talk, and when typing it is possible to try and type verbatim what is being said. In this case, there is no understanding. (If you've ever taken a class not all that is said is pertinent and not all that is pertinent is said) I personally don't revisit my written notes their purpose is uniquely for me to remember/understand what I've written.
      - wink 4mo ago
        I highly doubt this is unique. Some teachers (at least when I was in school) said stuff, repeated it, no problem writing it verbatim. Some others put it on the board for you to copy it verbatim, and later in uni.. most people definitely did not type fast enough to capture every word. Writing down stuff has always been what you make of it.
        4mo ago
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]

bix6 4mo ago

I learned typing in 3rd grade iirc. That seems reasonable for a fundamental skill.

doubled112 4mo ago
My kids are in grade 3 and 6 and nobody ever taught them to type. They just handed them a Chromebook and assumed they know what they're doing. It is a skill, but everybody seems to think it will just happen on its own.
- toast0 4mo ago
  The problem is everyone knows you learn to type when you get on IRC, but you can't put elementary school kids on IRC.
  - doubled112 4mo ago
    Why not? I was in elementary school on IRC. ASL ;-) ?
    - toast0 4mo ago
      I'm sure you turned out fine. But the school district can't put a bunch of kids on IRC, it'll look bad.
      - breppp 4mo ago
        I wouldn't put any kids through some of the stuff I've seen on IRC
        wink 4mo ago
        I wouldn't put my IRC friends through some of the stuff I've seen in school. /s
        toast0 4mo ago

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

swiftcoder 4mo ago

> A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class. Are you really trying to put the genie back in the bottle to the extent of making high schoolers write all their coursework by hand? Or maybe we should bring back the typewriter for distraction-free essay writing...

delta_p_delta_x 4mo ago
> making high schoolers write all their coursework by hand You make this sound like it is some long-gone practice. I was writing maths by hand as recently as 2020 in university, for my CS-associated maths courses (linear algebra, calculus, physics for computer graphics, etc). In pre-university essentially all coursework was done by hand, and the national exams are all still handwritten.
- wink 4mo ago
  Writing it down by hand and then doing OCR on a high quality photo is a completely different ball game than writing it down and... not having it in digital form though. I'm not disagreeing at all here, I tried live latexing my math courses and it was hard. I wish I had had access to a cellphone + good digitization back then. (just scanning it in was kinda pointless and I graduated about the time Android came out)
  - delta_p_delta_x 4mo ago
    > I tried live latexing my math courses This was by far the biggest time sink in my maths courses, and frankly, a giant waste of time. Sure, the end result looked beautiful but I think I understood less of it than if I'd just written it all down on A4 ruled paper in gel pen.
- vrighter 4mo ago
  I chose a hybrid method (I don't study anymore, this is just for personal stuff). I bought a cheap graphics tablet, and still handwrite my math, but on a digital whiteboard on my PC so I can save and take backups of it, and waste less paper. But I still get the tactility, and its associated benefits (the act of handwriting something helps you remember it better)

nradov 4mo ago

You've got to be kidding. Writing longhand was always a miserable experience for me no matter what technique or pen I used. Typing on a keyboard is so much faster and more fluent.

buellerbueller 4mo ago
>Typing on a keyboard is so much faster and more fluent. ...and studies show, inferior for recall: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-writing-by-hand-is-better-for-memory-and-learning/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-writing-by-ha...
- joveian 4mo ago
  Interesting article, although it does raise a few questions for me. I can see handwriting being uniquely important when learning to read but beyond that it would seem to just be suggesting that directly translating the same note taking to using a direct-mapped keyboard is a bad idea. But what about more complex input methods like for Chinese or a chording stenograph? Is there a distinct point where brain activity pops to wider activity? Do other computer based activities like correcting typos or non-computer activities like wiggling your finger to draw the shape of the first letter of each word engage more activity similar to handwriting? If needing a summary is the main difference, that seems like an easy thing to incorporate into digital note taking. Learning to read I can see that handwriting directly relates but beyond that it seems like there must be more effective ways to engage with the material than just making the writing method more complex. I'd say the same about lectures; interacting with someone who understands the material can be quite valuable but spending a lot of time listening to the same thing that could be read can't be the most effective way to learn even if the complexity of the transmission does help some with memory. I hope this type of research goes beyond basic handwriting vs typing and looks into the effectiveness of additional ways of engaging with information. For example, I like "don't guess" as a major principle of learning (per B.F. Skinner) to cultivate awareness of how reliable your memory is and avoid remembering incorrect answers as much as possible. The process of determining and looking up things that you aren't fairly certain about seems like something that could also engage wider brain activity and do so in a way that is more directly relevant to what you are learning.

justsomehnguy 4mo ago

This is how you get people who can't comperhend why they can't open Thesis.LNK from a thumbdrive.

hgoel 4mo ago

I can already tell that you would've been the equivalent of the adults that made life hell for me as a teen with their awful heavy handed opinions and interjections.