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As a rather conservative foreigner in the US I find this to be a very presumptive statement. We've made good friends, conservatives and liberals alike - we're p

• tonetheman 4mo ago
  [dead]
• mlinhares 4mo ago
  Interesting that nobody on the conservative side hates immigrants but continue to vote on politicians with platforms built upon the hatred of immigrants. It’s almost as if they’re lying.
  • timr 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    • hackyhacky 4mo ago
      > the other side actually has reasons that you haven’t bothered to consider? Cool, like what reasons, for example? The reasons given in this press release are transparently pretextual.
      • timr 4mo ago
        > Cool, like what reasons, for example? The reasons given in this press release are transparently pretextual. OK, so once again, you’re dismissing the other side’s arguments as lies. If you want to convince people of your argument, start by engaging in actual debate instead of simply calling your opponent names. Also, once again: I am not your opponent. I don’t agree with this change.
        • hackyhacky 4mo ago
          You said the other side has reasons that I hadn't considered. So, besides the "official" reasons in the official press release (which I have already considered), what reasons have I failed to consider?
          • timr 4mo ago
            > So, besides the "official" reasons in the official press release (which I have already considered), what reasons have I failed to consider? How many times do I have to repeat myself? I am not a proponent of this change. I am saying that calling your opponent a liar is not a convincing debate tactic, nor does it add anything new or useful. So you can start by explaining, in good faith, what is wrong with the argument that you’re dismissing without explanation.
            • Dylan16807 4mo ago
              You don't get to skip backing up your claim while waiting for them to go first. What are the arguments they haven't bothered to consider?
              • mindslight 4mo ago
                Seriously. I wish I could find any positive-constructive [0] results/values to frame Trumpism in terms of. I understood why people voted for him in 2016, or at least I thought I did. But based on his actual results, I've been trying to steelman for ~6 years now. I haven't been able to come up with any positive values, the only things I'm ever able to come up with are destruction, spite, and hate. Trump supporters should be perfectly capable of articulating some positive values they see Trump as actually championing. There's really no reason to be arguing for them. But rather instead, I just see fewer and fewer flags up as the damage to our country grows and grows. I guess the reality is finally setting in? [0] eg "deport immigrants" isn't a positive result as it's framed around a negative (immigrants not being here). "Fix the economy for manual labor" or "Restore X/Y/Z cultural values (that immigrants are supposedly disrupting)" would be positive values. But of course Trump hasn't actually made either of those examples better.
    • ourmandave 4mo ago
      then calling the other side liars because they disagree with your rhetoric The POTUS has lied about immigrants since the moment he came down the escalator in 2015 and hasn't let up since. From the old tired crime arguments of the past to outright bs (eating cats and dogs!). Honestly I wish that was all he lied about, but nothing is sacred.
    • joquarky 4mo ago
      > and the other side actually has reasons that you haven’t bothered to consider? Such as?
      • orthecreedence 4mo ago
        Such as the desire for theocratic surveillance fascism (what Jesus advocated for tirelessly).
    • orthecreedence 4mo ago
      > I don’t like this policy, but engaging in exaggerated rhetoric The Trump admin just sent an official death threat to trans people and anti-fascists (lol??). I am so incredibly sick of people acting like this is ok and normal and any calling out is exaggerating. At some point, you're not defending sensible discourse, you're lecturing people for being upset when they have a murderous regime targeting them. It's a shitty thing to do. You're defending actual fascism at this point. And I'm happy to back up that claim without rhetoric by demonstrating the ways in which the US is (and has been) slipping into fascism for decades. Something tells me I'd be wasting my breath though.
• rattray 4mo ago
  GP seemed to be commenting on the Trump administration, not necessarily individuals of conservative persuasion. The Trump administration diverges materially from traditional conservative doctrine in many ways.
• deleted 4mo ago
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• lumost 4mo ago
  I have a family split along classic ideological lines between the northeast and southeast of the US. If you are unfamiliar with conservative's hatred toward immigration, I suggest you travel more.
  • daveidol 4mo ago
    I grew up and live in the southeast. I also lived on the west coast for a decade. I find your comment completely off base.
    • bakies 4mo ago
      I constantly travel the whole east coast, I suggest you take a look around
  • _blk 4mo ago
    I just went around the circumference of the US by RV. Kinda hard to travel more. What I do notice is a clearly liberal HN bubble that does not represent the country I see and the people I talk to and I'm not selective. You're of course entitled to your views, just don't take others' views as unfounded just because you don't agree. (Collective you). I love the US and the values it stands for but dialogue and the "I'm right, you're wrong" has to improve on both sides.
• deleted 4mo ago
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• foo-bar-baz529 4mo ago
  Do you believe the immigrants in Ohio are eating the pet dogs? Because Trump sure does.
• caconym_ 4mo ago
  > No conservative I know "hates immigrants." Consider what the policy intends to do rather than blanket-blaming it on hate. If you look at the rhetoric from the Trump people over the years, they absolutely and clearly do hate immigrants, or are doing their best to seem that way. As an example, consider the following quote^[1] from Trump just a few years ago: > They let — I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. When they do that, we got a lot of work to do. They’re poisoning the blood of our country [...] That’s what they’ve done. They poison mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in South America, not just to three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world. They’re coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world. It's trivial to find more like that. Weird white supremacist-adjacent rhetoric. Equating immigrants with animals. Etc. American conservatives may not hate immigrants, but they sure love a guy who fervently expresses his hatred and disdain for immigrants every chance he gets. They've voted him into our highest office twice, and immigration was a central pillar of his campaign both times. I fully understand that many people who voted for him did so for reasons besides immigration, but at this point if they aren't willing to disavow him after the catastrophic first year-and-change of his second term then I am done giving them the benefit of the doubt, because there must be some reason they still support him, and at this point it sure isn't his performance on inflation, general affordability, etc. In fact, looking at the Silver Bulletin charts^[2] as of right now, immigration is the only macro issue they track where his approval isn't in free-fall. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-says-immigrants-are-poisoning-blood-country-biden-campaign-liken-rcna130141 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-says-im... [2] https://www.natesilver.net/p/trump-approval-ratings-nate-silver-bulletin https://www.natesilver.net/p/trump-approval-ratings-nate-sil... (paywalled i think, unfortunately)
  • kortilla 4mo ago
    That quote you pulled is about illegal immigration. Conflating undocumented immigrants with “anti-immigration” is a false equivalence. There are no doubt people against immigration entirely but the majority opinion I hear from conservative leaning people is that legal immigration is great and people that skip the system are the problem and the drag on social safety nets.
• awesome_dude 4mo ago
  Just FTR conservatives aren't the only ones on the Right https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-right-us/ https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/left-vs-ri...
• blizdiddy 4mo ago
  I’m tired of people acting so naive past the point of zip-tying entire apartment buildings and building concentration camps. White supremacist manners and politeness are disgusting.
• wwweston 4mo ago
  This may not be the intent of some conservative voters, partly because some are plausibly immigration friendly, partly because many movement conservatives have more of a opinion-vibe than a policy position on immigration (among other things). But conservative voters that don’t want much immigration at all (especially from some places/backgrounds) absolutely exist, and more to the point so does leadership that’s determining policy with that goal in mind. Perhaps you and your circle reflect the more egalitarian policy-driven view. Commendable if so. But it’s not commendable to deny that conservatism has a xenophobic streak a mile wide right now.
• RHSeeger 4mo ago
  > Consider what the policy intends to do rather than blanket-blaming it on hate It looks like the policy intends to prevent immigration in every way possible, and (along with other policies that have come about recently), kick out as many people as possible; even those that are immigrating here legally (or have already done so). So, other than a hate for immigrants/immigration, I don't see another possible explanation.
  • _blk 4mo ago
    When you come as a non-immigrant, you agree to not stay permanently. If you want to stay (because life happens and the US is a great country after all) you go through the proper channels. That may mean exiting for the duration of the process - that's entirely legitimate given the amount of abuse. No reason to invoke "hate" of any kind to justify the need for the policy. I know it's not the popular view here on HN and anti-HN-mainstream views get downvoted really fast. Think about that if you value democracy.
    • RHSeeger 4mo ago
      Only, we've seen - People that didn't go through the proper channels, but have been here contributing peacefully to our society - hunted down, incarcerated, and/or kicked out, even though they're valuable members of our society - People that are trying to go through the proper channels -hunted down, incarcerated, and/or kicked out - People that are currently going through the proper channels - hunted down, incarcerated, and/or kicked out (sometimes literally _at_ the court houses while trying to go through proper channels) - People that have already gone through the proper channels and have their greencards, hunted down, incarcerated, and/or kicked out - People that are natural born citizens, hunted down, incarcerated, and/or kicked out So our willingness to give the benefit of the doubt to the crowd that is claiming "we're just trying to get them to do it the right way to prevent abuse" is... just gone. It's not believable. Are there _some_ people that are honestly trying to do things right? Sure.. but the ones with the actual power, the ones out there taking action? They're not. They're out there causing harm just for the sake of causing harm.
• etc-hosts 4mo ago
  Every conservative I know centers their politics around hating and demonizing immigrants. I blame Youtube and Elon.
  • cess11 4mo ago
    In the nineties usian professor of philosophy Rick Roderick produced a series of lectures for The Teaching Company called The Self Under Siege. Perhaps they might change your view that this is a recent development. https://rickroderick.org/ https://rickroderick.org/ In 2011 the usian professor of political science Corey Robin published a book on conservative thought, which is a pretty succinct and easy read. Here's the second edition: http://digamo.free.fr/coreyrobin2017.pdf http://digamo.free.fr/coreyrobin2017.pdf