6 ms·

US tech firms share Dutch regulator officials' names with Senate

220 points by zqna 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]
petcat 5mo ago
> However, stopping working with Microsoft and other US tech companies is not an option in the short term, he told the magazine. > Van der Burg is currently grappling with the issue of Solvinity, a Dutch cloud service provider which is widely used by government departments including the Digid identity system, and which is on the verge of being sold to a US company. > The Dutch tax office is also currently switching to Microsoft systems, despite MPs’ concerns. They all talk about the importance of European digital sovereignty and then continue to do the exact opposite behind the scenes.
- pjc50 5mo ago
  Rather like pre 2022 Russia, governments get warnings that something bad is going to happen that it would be expensive to prepare for, and put off preparing because you don't get political rewards for that.
  - skippyboxedhero 5mo ago
    The reason Germany didn't prepare for it was because multiple leading politicians were bought and paid for by Russia. Be totally clear about that. Former German president was working for Gazprom on the project whose stated aim was to facilitate an invasion of Ukraine at some point (which Trump pointed out, and EU politicians literally laughed at him). The issue with the EU is that they lack the capacity for any kind of strategic thought. There are multiple reasons why but the underlying cause is that it is possible to move into local minimum where there is a very strong disincentive for any kind of change. Countries in the EU have generally been in that place since before the EU...that is why the EU was created, to limit change. It is isn't political incentives, it is a fundamental aspect of the political culture. If you also look at the stuff that has changed, this only becomes more strange (i.e. government intervention, immigration, regulations). Change is limited to preserve control.
    - bob001 5mo ago
      > The reason Germany didn't prepare for it was because multiple leading politicians were bought and paid for by Russia. Be totally clear about that. Former German president was working for Gazprom on the project whose stated aim was to facilitate an invasion of Ukraine at some point (which Trump pointed out, and EU politicians literally laughed at him). To add to your point, despite this the German population seems to strongly believe there is no corruption in their government. Local minima, everything is fine, there is no fire, I'm going to make some tea while the tables turns to ash under the pot.
      - joe_mamba 5mo ago
        [flagged]
      - skippyboxedhero 5mo ago
        As the other answer says, surely this would always be the case. People do not deal with government regularly and there is a strong disincentive to report upon this. I think you see the same thing in every Western democracy where people believe there is no corruption or believe in rather comical forms of corruption, but the corruption is actually systemic and a function of some political configuration that can't really stand change. This is certainly the case in Germany where you have this odd alliance between unions and billionaires that has basically led to, despite the amazing talent of their people, amazingly poor policy delivery.
      - WarmWash 5mo ago
        They also work 400 hours less per year than their US counterparts and 1000 less than their Chinese counterparts. You might be comfortable in that life, but you won't be competitive.
        sham1 5mo ago
        And pray tell, what does the American or the Chinese worker in this case get out of their higher productivity and competitiveness? Because it really seems that it's not quality of life, that's for certain. More money and material comforts? Well perhaps, but then again, I do wonder just how many would willingly take that rather than for example a proper work-life balance or clean environment. And we'll probably have to rethink the relationship of our societies with material consumption etc. in the coming decades anyway due to the climate emergency, and so maybe it'd actually be better for the US or China to adopt our "less competitive" stance rather than for us to try to agonise on trying to get ourselves competitive with them. No one has yet figured out just what one's material possessions will do for them after they're dead. At best you can pass them to your next of kin, but that doesn't need the kind of hyper competitive, hyper capitalistic mindset espoused by the US or China.
- throwaw12 5mo ago
  Because there is no punishment for lying in politics. Look at the Trump, connected to p*dos, instead of stopping wars, started a war, betrayed MAGA, but still no action taken against him, because there is no legal action for lying to become a politican
- microtonal 5mo ago
  They all talk about the importance of European digital sovereignty and then continue to do the exact opposite behind the scenes. To be honest and I say this as a Dutch person, this is typical Dutch (government). Basically two rules in Dutch politics: (1) always choose the option that pleases the US the most; (2) always postpone solving issues to the latest possible moment (US dependence, nitrogen deposition, childcare benefits scandal, gas-induced earthquakes). France, Germany, etc. are much better examples when it comes to sovereignty. As an aside the parliament wants to stop the Solvinity acquisition or stop renewing the contract with Solvinity. But the VVD (one of the parties in government) is always going to choose what is best for big business (the party is one big revolving door) or the US.
  - miohtama 5mo ago
    It's not only Dutch. Instead of building sovereignity, the EU thought they could regulate their way and force everyone to bend the knee because of their share as a trading partner. This started 20 years ago. However what has happened is that the EU's soft power is crumbling, but the politicians have hard to grasp with the reality they could somehow dictate things globally. AI will only further accelerate this. Only way to have control is to have domestic actors you can push around.
    - jorvi 5mo ago
      > However what has happened is that the EU's soft power is crumbling Uh, no. The US soft power is turning to dust whilst the EU is out there building the new free [trade] world, with itself as the biggest lynchpin. What has happened the past ±30 years is that most EU countries cut spending on their militaries to the bone, because big brother USA would take care of it anyway. Now that we are returning to a multi-polar world, suddenly the EU is left scrambling for hard power that it doesn't have. That's why they can't play hardball when the US does a new ridiculous thing, because they simply lack the hard power to back up Ukraine. The US is sorely going to regret their antics though. Long term, the EU is going to switch to their own stacks, both for military but also things like cloud and other tech. It's trillions of $ the US economy will be missing out on. And voting in a Democratic president, senate and house is not gonna change a thing about it, because the US has proven itself to be a fundamentally unreliable, if not outright hostile partner.
- spockz 5mo ago
  There are many different tracks underway in government in different branches. Completely vetoing everything to use Microsoft is a difficult decision as it also stops a lot of features that depend on it, or were made to depend on it, such as updating tax codes. Therefore it is a risk/benefit assessment rather than outright lying. (The latter also happens obviously but just wanted to state that reality is more gray than black and white.)
- softwaredoug 5mo ago
  Ironically GOP talks about European sovereignty over their own defense, but economically want to treat them like a vassal
  - roenxi 5mo ago
    If you think about it in terms of game theory that is actually a fair approach - you have an ally, you propose a best-case path forward for the alliance where both members are strong. If the ally don't want to take that path then you exploit the ally instead since a technically incompetent ally is a liability who needs to be kept under tight control.
  - NoLinkToMe 5mo ago
    This is by the way how the defense was treated for decades as well. US resisted the EU from building a formidable army, instead they preferred a vassal state defense, enough to deter others from messing with Europe, not enough for Europe to be independent, and buying almost exclusively from US defense companies propping up US military R&D and financing factories during peacetime. Now that the US has pivoted to Asia since Obama, they expect the EU to fill the gap they leave behind. But that’s new, the US wanted it exactly like it was pre 2014 or so.
    - WarmWash 5mo ago
      Reading this is like when you hear fat people talk about how all these corporations just keep forcing them to eat junk food. Meanwhile you live in the same society and eat healthy without issue or expense.
      - BDPW 5mo ago
        Who are you in this comparison?
      - NoLinkToMe 4mo ago
        I don't understand your comment tbh...
  - 5mo ago
- hulitu 5mo ago
  US tech companies pay well, the cost of living is increasing, so politicians have to think about the future.
- TrackerFF 5mo ago
  It takes time. Hence whey Microsoft has a stranglehold on big gov. customers in other countries. From my own experience, big changes can take place in smaller gov. organizations, and pretty fast too. I've worked at a place where we swapped out all Microsoft and commercial products to open source alternatives in just a couple of weeks. But it was a smaller and specialized part of an organization, with 30 users. Trying to do the same change, where there are millions of users involved? It will almost certainly take a decade or more. The only thing that would accelerate such a process, would be Microsoft shutting down services at the command of, say, the US president. But that would only be the case if said country ended up being sanctioned by the US.
  - petcat 5mo ago
    > It takes time. [...] It will almost certainly take a decade or more. > The Dutch tax office is also currently switching to Microsoft systems They're not even trying though. They're not even starting the clock. They are actively going in the opposite direction. It will never happen.
- roysting 5mo ago
  Greed is the easiest way to compromise anything. It is a central theme covered in too many sources to list, but it is always a deal with the figurative devil, treason, betrayal of not just oneself, but everyone else who trusted you, lifted you, and relied on you. It is why treason is such a pernicious and evil act even when one is ignorant of perpetrating it, because you may personally advance your own position for a moment by making a deal with the devil, but the real price is always immeasurably greater. It is also why no one hates the traitor more than the devil himself, because he knows best what a vile and untrustworthy traitor the person is that would betray his own people. Even the devil cannot even respect that, hence why the only thing one can be sure of when making a deal with the devil is that the devil and his children will always stab you in the back. It is the existential question all of “the west” is wrestling with right now. Whether they can stop the traitors among them who have long ago made many deals with many devils and his many children…or will they personally “profit” in the short term all the way to figurative hell.
- PowerElectronix 5mo ago
  European politicians and bureaucrats are just full of shit and extremely unwilling to make any kind of effort beyond talking.
  - vanviegen 5mo ago
    European politicians are usually not backed by anything even close to a majority, so they need to talk and compromise.
- 2Gkashmiri 5mo ago
  Indian tax departments use EXCEL VBA and force users to.use licensed microsoft excel to run the utilities so tax returns can be filed. The reason given "for your own safety" At the same time, the public tendering process makes no mention of the tools. The L1 uses excel and that inturn FORCES thousands and thousands into using paid excel. I use masgrave but thats irrelevant. I also use libreoffice which works most of the time but yeah
- m3047 4mo ago
  Bert Hubert makes an argument based on Palantir: it's not simply the software. It's like a million dollar a day marine crane which comes with a crew. To put it another way, Microsoft, Oracle, Salesforce licenses are a tax compared to what is spent on consultants and integrators. That army knows a particular tech stack and also the relevant players. https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/some-notes-on-palantir/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/some-notes-on-palantir/
Eridrus 5mo ago
I don't know what the US thinks it will gain by targeting civil servants. They are not the ones with the power to decide what happens, and retaliation would mean more anti-US people selecting themselves into these projects.
- jgalt212 5mo ago
  Yes, civil servants should be allowed to ply their trade without scrutiny.
  - icfly2 5mo ago
    Yes, Dutch civil servants must not be supervised oder subjected to scrutiny of American law makers. That is sort of self evident.
  - vrganj 5mo ago
    Foreign authoritarians have no business scrutinizing our public servants.
- emilfihlman 5mo ago
  >They are not the ones with the power to decide what happens This is a very naive interpretation. Bureaucrats have MASSIVE amount of power and control, and in actuality decide many things and how the law is written.
  - phatfish 5mo ago
    [flagged]
- miohtama 5mo ago
  These civil servants are effectively trying to bypass the US court. These civil servants yield considerable power what comes to the censorship, and the Whitehouse really really hates the idea that the EU can decide, not them, what is allowed. This will send a message that the US stands behind its companies and is not push around. If you want to push non-domestic enforcement, you need to be willing to stand behind the principles and be publicly ready to defend the censorship rulings you set forward.
emilfihlman 5mo ago
Civil servant's info is public information (at least in Finland it is). It's good that bureaucrats can't hide behind bureaucracy.
- cynicalsecurity 5mo ago
  They are afraid more of their own citizens thn of Americans. That's the reason for secrecy. At the same time, Danish officials push for chat control - a fascist Stasi-like initiative of mass spying on citizens, with a deliberate exception of government officials.
KnuthIsGod 5mo ago
[flagged]
- gib444 5mo ago
  Not through choice
portly 5mo ago
Sorry, but "dutchnews.nl" is not a source I take seriously. Please link a publication on an established media outlet because this smells like misinfo.
- tgv 5mo ago
  A bit distrustful, but here you go: https://nos.nl/artikel/2615391-techbedrijven-deelden-namen-nederlandse-ambtenaren-met-vs-ontzettend-zorgelijk https://nos.nl/artikel/2615391-techbedrijven-deelden-namen-n...
- sixhobbits 5mo ago
  Dutchnews.nl is an established media outlet and what a lot of English/non-Dutch speakers use to keep up with Dutch news (which is perhaps surprisingly to Americans, usually written in Dutch)
  - portly 5mo ago
    My bad, I was not aware that expats read this. I had never heard of it before. But still, as far as I can tell, they just translate the news from platforms like nos.nl and perhaps newspapers rather than doing the journalism themselves.
- quink 5mo ago
  They literally mention Vrij Nederland as a source as near enough the first thing in the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrij_Nederland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrij_Nederland and https://www.vn.nl/microsoft-ambtenaren-amerikaanse-overheid https://www.vn.nl/microsoft-ambtenaren-amerikaanse-overheid
neves 5mo ago
USA has always seemed it's companies. Will they do the same they did with International Criminal Court? They were investigating Israel genocide and now they judges can't use a credit card or travel. Reference: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-sanctions-against-judges-and-deputy-prosecutors https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-san...
gyanchawdhary 5mo ago
[flagged]
- armada651 5mo ago
  This is not public scrutiny though, that comes from the public and their institutions. This is simply a nation meddling in the internal affairs of other nations.
  - gyanchawdhary 5mo ago
    It’s not so innocent and pure are you are trying to portray. The average person cares more about important issues like immigration, jobs, economy .. not self appointed experts trying to regulate software companies about things that don’t have material impact on their lives ..
    - armada651 5mo ago
      So the United States should step in because it knows better than our elected representatives? Are you sure you're on the side of democracy here?
      - gyanchawdhary 4mo ago
        Im a big fan of democracy. It's made me fabulously wealthy compared to the third world one party socialist system (until early 2000s) I grew up under ... my point isn't that the US knows better than Dutch voters. It's that I doubt the average Dutch person (and by average I literally mean the 99%) gives a flying f*K about whether Google Cloud is the right place to store data or whether AWS is a monopoly. Most people care about housing, jobs, wages, immigration, crime, healthcare, and the cost of living ... the reason these bureaucrates can spend so much time meddling in tech is precisely because most people aren't paying attention. I'd like to see the same regulatory energy directed at the problems ordinary people actually talk about at the dinner table ..
zugi 5mo ago
The article is thin on details about the sharing of names. If US companies responded to US government inquiries about speech regulation by forwarding the emails they received from Dutch regulators, those would unsurprisingly include regulators' names. The article title seems like click bait, even though the article content goes on to have interesting details about EU attempts to reduce dependence on US technology companies.
- j_maffe 5mo ago
  How is it clickbait? They're describing the topic of the discussion in a transparent and accurate manner.
ronsor 5mo ago
> Companies such as Microsoft and Meta have shared the names of civil servants and academics working on European tech regulation with a senate committee investigating “tech censorship” or “jawboning”, news magazine Vrij Nederland reported on Friday. IIRC this was part of subpoena from Congress? > The cabinet has described the news as “extremely worrying”, given that the named officials could now face travel bans or even sanctions, Vrij Nederland said. This is possible. > “If you want to discuss policy, then you do it with us, not over the backs of civil servants,” digital economy minister Willemijn Aerdts told the magazine. “That has happened and we will now talk to our contacts, including those in the US.” I don't know why they expect to be able to discuss policy constraints without the government of the company's place of business knowing.
- moontear 4mo ago
  > "I don't know why they expect to be able to discuss policy constraints without the government of the company's place of business knowing." My interpretation of this quote would be that it is not liked that individual names are shared of people working in e.g. the competition authority. They are saying if you want to discuss things, come through the front door, i.e. contact the competition authority which maybe has an official government liaison and don't go after a person who is only responsible for writing some regulation.
djoldman 5mo ago
> Under the US Cloud Act, American companies are required to hand over all information they store to the government if requested to do so, even if it is stored abroad. Hrm. It's my understanding that a US company is required to give almost no data to any government without a warrant.
- graemep 4mo ago
  True, but a US warrant. So if data is stored on a system in another country owned by an American company, they can be compelled to hand the information to the US government even if it is illegal to do so according to the law of the country where in the information is stored. So, for example, a lot of medical information stored on AWS by the NHS could be obtained by the US government. So could a lot of financial and government data around the world. Zoom calls, Teams meetings, emails sent to GMail. Google Drive and one Drive document. Lots and lots more.
PeterStuer 5mo ago
Follow the money. So far, there has been lots of posturing, but little budget behind those 'sovereignty' initiatives in the EU. Unless this changes, I am going to assume the puppets are just riding out time until their US masters are back in control.
greatgib 5mo ago
As always is some countries and especially in European ones. When citizens have to face the consequence of harmful data mining and sharing behaviors, it is ok because the officials are profiting of it. When it is the officials that have to bear the consequences, then it is scandalous and something needs to be done about it. But just for them to be protected. They don't care for the general population.
rambambram 4mo ago
Schleswig-Holstein works with sovereign tech for their office and email applications.
silexia 4mo ago
Censoring free speech is the end of democracy. We must fight back against government encroachment on our rights.
- bigyabai 4mo ago
  The right to what, exactly? Extralegally hand over private PII to the government? This article is not a censorship polemic.

220 points by zqna 5mo ago

deleted 5mo ago

[deleted]

> However, stopping working with Microsoft and other US tech companies is not an option in the short term, he told the magazine. > Van der Burg is currently grappling with the issue of Solvinity, a Dutch cloud service provider which is widely used by government departments including the Digid identity system, and which is on the verge of being sold to a US company. > The Dutch tax office is also currently switching to Microsoft systems, despite MPs’ concerns. They all talk about the importance of European digital sovereignty and then continue to do the exact opposite behind the scenes.

pjc50 5mo ago
Rather like pre 2022 Russia, governments get warnings that something bad is going to happen that it would be expensive to prepare for, and put off preparing because you don't get political rewards for that.
- skippyboxedhero 5mo ago
  The reason Germany didn't prepare for it was because multiple leading politicians were bought and paid for by Russia. Be totally clear about that. Former German president was working for Gazprom on the project whose stated aim was to facilitate an invasion of Ukraine at some point (which Trump pointed out, and EU politicians literally laughed at him). The issue with the EU is that they lack the capacity for any kind of strategic thought. There are multiple reasons why but the underlying cause is that it is possible to move into local minimum where there is a very strong disincentive for any kind of change. Countries in the EU have generally been in that place since before the EU...that is why the EU was created, to limit change. It is isn't political incentives, it is a fundamental aspect of the political culture. If you also look at the stuff that has changed, this only becomes more strange (i.e. government intervention, immigration, regulations). Change is limited to preserve control.
  - bob001 5mo ago
    > The reason Germany didn't prepare for it was because multiple leading politicians were bought and paid for by Russia. Be totally clear about that. Former German president was working for Gazprom on the project whose stated aim was to facilitate an invasion of Ukraine at some point (which Trump pointed out, and EU politicians literally laughed at him). To add to your point, despite this the German population seems to strongly believe there is no corruption in their government. Local minima, everything is fine, there is no fire, I'm going to make some tea while the tables turns to ash under the pot.
    - joe_mamba 5mo ago
      [flagged]
    - skippyboxedhero 5mo ago
      As the other answer says, surely this would always be the case. People do not deal with government regularly and there is a strong disincentive to report upon this. I think you see the same thing in every Western democracy where people believe there is no corruption or believe in rather comical forms of corruption, but the corruption is actually systemic and a function of some political configuration that can't really stand change. This is certainly the case in Germany where you have this odd alliance between unions and billionaires that has basically led to, despite the amazing talent of their people, amazingly poor policy delivery.
    - WarmWash 5mo ago
      They also work 400 hours less per year than their US counterparts and 1000 less than their Chinese counterparts. You might be comfortable in that life, but you won't be competitive.
      - sham1 5mo ago
        And pray tell, what does the American or the Chinese worker in this case get out of their higher productivity and competitiveness? Because it really seems that it's not quality of life, that's for certain. More money and material comforts? Well perhaps, but then again, I do wonder just how many would willingly take that rather than for example a proper work-life balance or clean environment. And we'll probably have to rethink the relationship of our societies with material consumption etc. in the coming decades anyway due to the climate emergency, and so maybe it'd actually be better for the US or China to adopt our "less competitive" stance rather than for us to try to agonise on trying to get ourselves competitive with them. No one has yet figured out just what one's material possessions will do for them after they're dead. At best you can pass them to your next of kin, but that doesn't need the kind of hyper competitive, hyper capitalistic mindset espoused by the US or China.
throwaw12 5mo ago
Because there is no punishment for lying in politics. Look at the Trump, connected to p*dos, instead of stopping wars, started a war, betrayed MAGA, but still no action taken against him, because there is no legal action for lying to become a politican
microtonal 5mo ago
They all talk about the importance of European digital sovereignty and then continue to do the exact opposite behind the scenes. To be honest and I say this as a Dutch person, this is typical Dutch (government). Basically two rules in Dutch politics: (1) always choose the option that pleases the US the most; (2) always postpone solving issues to the latest possible moment (US dependence, nitrogen deposition, childcare benefits scandal, gas-induced earthquakes). France, Germany, etc. are much better examples when it comes to sovereignty. As an aside the parliament wants to stop the Solvinity acquisition or stop renewing the contract with Solvinity. But the VVD (one of the parties in government) is always going to choose what is best for big business (the party is one big revolving door) or the US.
- miohtama 5mo ago
  It's not only Dutch. Instead of building sovereignity, the EU thought they could regulate their way and force everyone to bend the knee because of their share as a trading partner. This started 20 years ago. However what has happened is that the EU's soft power is crumbling, but the politicians have hard to grasp with the reality they could somehow dictate things globally. AI will only further accelerate this. Only way to have control is to have domestic actors you can push around.
  - jorvi 5mo ago
    > However what has happened is that the EU's soft power is crumbling Uh, no. The US soft power is turning to dust whilst the EU is out there building the new free [trade] world, with itself as the biggest lynchpin. What has happened the past ±30 years is that most EU countries cut spending on their militaries to the bone, because big brother USA would take care of it anyway. Now that we are returning to a multi-polar world, suddenly the EU is left scrambling for hard power that it doesn't have. That's why they can't play hardball when the US does a new ridiculous thing, because they simply lack the hard power to back up Ukraine. The US is sorely going to regret their antics though. Long term, the EU is going to switch to their own stacks, both for military but also things like cloud and other tech. It's trillions of $ the US economy will be missing out on. And voting in a Democratic president, senate and house is not gonna change a thing about it, because the US has proven itself to be a fundamentally unreliable, if not outright hostile partner.
spockz 5mo ago
There are many different tracks underway in government in different branches. Completely vetoing everything to use Microsoft is a difficult decision as it also stops a lot of features that depend on it, or were made to depend on it, such as updating tax codes. Therefore it is a risk/benefit assessment rather than outright lying. (The latter also happens obviously but just wanted to state that reality is more gray than black and white.)
softwaredoug 5mo ago
Ironically GOP talks about European sovereignty over their own defense, but economically want to treat them like a vassal
- roenxi 5mo ago
  If you think about it in terms of game theory that is actually a fair approach - you have an ally, you propose a best-case path forward for the alliance where both members are strong. If the ally don't want to take that path then you exploit the ally instead since a technically incompetent ally is a liability who needs to be kept under tight control.
- NoLinkToMe 5mo ago
  This is by the way how the defense was treated for decades as well. US resisted the EU from building a formidable army, instead they preferred a vassal state defense, enough to deter others from messing with Europe, not enough for Europe to be independent, and buying almost exclusively from US defense companies propping up US military R&D and financing factories during peacetime. Now that the US has pivoted to Asia since Obama, they expect the EU to fill the gap they leave behind. But that’s new, the US wanted it exactly like it was pre 2014 or so.
  - WarmWash 5mo ago
    Reading this is like when you hear fat people talk about how all these corporations just keep forcing them to eat junk food. Meanwhile you live in the same society and eat healthy without issue or expense.
    - BDPW 5mo ago
      Who are you in this comparison?
    - NoLinkToMe 4mo ago
      I don't understand your comment tbh...
- 5mo ago
hulitu 5mo ago
US tech companies pay well, the cost of living is increasing, so politicians have to think about the future.
TrackerFF 5mo ago
It takes time. Hence whey Microsoft has a stranglehold on big gov. customers in other countries. From my own experience, big changes can take place in smaller gov. organizations, and pretty fast too. I've worked at a place where we swapped out all Microsoft and commercial products to open source alternatives in just a couple of weeks. But it was a smaller and specialized part of an organization, with 30 users. Trying to do the same change, where there are millions of users involved? It will almost certainly take a decade or more. The only thing that would accelerate such a process, would be Microsoft shutting down services at the command of, say, the US president. But that would only be the case if said country ended up being sanctioned by the US.
- petcat 5mo ago
  > It takes time. [...] It will almost certainly take a decade or more. > The Dutch tax office is also currently switching to Microsoft systems They're not even trying though. They're not even starting the clock. They are actively going in the opposite direction. It will never happen.
roysting 5mo ago
Greed is the easiest way to compromise anything. It is a central theme covered in too many sources to list, but it is always a deal with the figurative devil, treason, betrayal of not just oneself, but everyone else who trusted you, lifted you, and relied on you. It is why treason is such a pernicious and evil act even when one is ignorant of perpetrating it, because you may personally advance your own position for a moment by making a deal with the devil, but the real price is always immeasurably greater. It is also why no one hates the traitor more than the devil himself, because he knows best what a vile and untrustworthy traitor the person is that would betray his own people. Even the devil cannot even respect that, hence why the only thing one can be sure of when making a deal with the devil is that the devil and his children will always stab you in the back. It is the existential question all of “the west” is wrestling with right now. Whether they can stop the traitors among them who have long ago made many deals with many devils and his many children…or will they personally “profit” in the short term all the way to figurative hell.
PowerElectronix 5mo ago
European politicians and bureaucrats are just full of shit and extremely unwilling to make any kind of effort beyond talking.
- vanviegen 5mo ago
  European politicians are usually not backed by anything even close to a majority, so they need to talk and compromise.
2Gkashmiri 5mo ago
Indian tax departments use EXCEL VBA and force users to.use licensed microsoft excel to run the utilities so tax returns can be filed. The reason given "for your own safety" At the same time, the public tendering process makes no mention of the tools. The L1 uses excel and that inturn FORCES thousands and thousands into using paid excel. I use masgrave but thats irrelevant. I also use libreoffice which works most of the time but yeah
m3047 4mo ago
Bert Hubert makes an argument based on Palantir: it's not simply the software. It's like a million dollar a day marine crane which comes with a crew. To put it another way, Microsoft, Oracle, Salesforce licenses are a tax compared to what is spent on consultants and integrators. That army knows a particular tech stack and also the relevant players. https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/some-notes-on-palantir/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/some-notes-on-palantir/

Eridrus 5mo ago

I don't know what the US thinks it will gain by targeting civil servants. They are not the ones with the power to decide what happens, and retaliation would mean more anti-US people selecting themselves into these projects.

jgalt212 5mo ago
Yes, civil servants should be allowed to ply their trade without scrutiny.
- icfly2 5mo ago
  Yes, Dutch civil servants must not be supervised oder subjected to scrutiny of American law makers. That is sort of self evident.
- vrganj 5mo ago
  Foreign authoritarians have no business scrutinizing our public servants.
emilfihlman 5mo ago
>They are not the ones with the power to decide what happens This is a very naive interpretation. Bureaucrats have MASSIVE amount of power and control, and in actuality decide many things and how the law is written.
- phatfish 5mo ago
  [flagged]
miohtama 5mo ago
These civil servants are effectively trying to bypass the US court. These civil servants yield considerable power what comes to the censorship, and the Whitehouse really really hates the idea that the EU can decide, not them, what is allowed. This will send a message that the US stands behind its companies and is not push around. If you want to push non-domestic enforcement, you need to be willing to stand behind the principles and be publicly ready to defend the censorship rulings you set forward.

emilfihlman 5mo ago

Civil servant's info is public information (at least in Finland it is). It's good that bureaucrats can't hide behind bureaucracy.

cynicalsecurity 5mo ago
They are afraid more of their own citizens thn of Americans. That's the reason for secrecy. At the same time, Danish officials push for chat control - a fascist Stasi-like initiative of mass spying on citizens, with a deliberate exception of government officials.

KnuthIsGod 5mo ago

[flagged]

gib444 5mo ago
Not through choice

portly 5mo ago

Sorry, but "dutchnews.nl" is not a source I take seriously. Please link a publication on an established media outlet because this smells like misinfo.

tgv 5mo ago
A bit distrustful, but here you go: https://nos.nl/artikel/2615391-techbedrijven-deelden-namen-nederlandse-ambtenaren-met-vs-ontzettend-zorgelijk https://nos.nl/artikel/2615391-techbedrijven-deelden-namen-n...
sixhobbits 5mo ago
Dutchnews.nl is an established media outlet and what a lot of English/non-Dutch speakers use to keep up with Dutch news (which is perhaps surprisingly to Americans, usually written in Dutch)
- portly 5mo ago
  My bad, I was not aware that expats read this. I had never heard of it before. But still, as far as I can tell, they just translate the news from platforms like nos.nl and perhaps newspapers rather than doing the journalism themselves.
quink 5mo ago
They literally mention Vrij Nederland as a source as near enough the first thing in the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrij_Nederland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrij_Nederland and https://www.vn.nl/microsoft-ambtenaren-amerikaanse-overheid https://www.vn.nl/microsoft-ambtenaren-amerikaanse-overheid

neves 5mo ago

USA has always seemed it's companies. Will they do the same they did with International Criminal Court? They were investigating Israel genocide and now they judges can't use a credit card or travel. Reference: https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-sanctions-against-judges-and-deputy-prosecutors https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/icc-strongly-rejects-new-us-san...

gyanchawdhary 5mo ago

[flagged]

armada651 5mo ago
This is not public scrutiny though, that comes from the public and their institutions. This is simply a nation meddling in the internal affairs of other nations.
- gyanchawdhary 5mo ago
  It’s not so innocent and pure are you are trying to portray. The average person cares more about important issues like immigration, jobs, economy .. not self appointed experts trying to regulate software companies about things that don’t have material impact on their lives ..
  - armada651 5mo ago
    So the United States should step in because it knows better than our elected representatives? Are you sure you're on the side of democracy here?
    - gyanchawdhary 4mo ago
      Im a big fan of democracy. It's made me fabulously wealthy compared to the third world one party socialist system (until early 2000s) I grew up under ... my point isn't that the US knows better than Dutch voters. It's that I doubt the average Dutch person (and by average I literally mean the 99%) gives a flying f*K about whether Google Cloud is the right place to store data or whether AWS is a monopoly. Most people care about housing, jobs, wages, immigration, crime, healthcare, and the cost of living ... the reason these bureaucrates can spend so much time meddling in tech is precisely because most people aren't paying attention. I'd like to see the same regulatory energy directed at the problems ordinary people actually talk about at the dinner table ..

zugi 5mo ago

The article is thin on details about the sharing of names. If US companies responded to US government inquiries about speech regulation by forwarding the emails they received from Dutch regulators, those would unsurprisingly include regulators' names. The article title seems like click bait, even though the article content goes on to have interesting details about EU attempts to reduce dependence on US technology companies.

j_maffe 5mo ago
How is it clickbait? They're describing the topic of the discussion in a transparent and accurate manner.

ronsor 5mo ago

> Companies such as Microsoft and Meta have shared the names of civil servants and academics working on European tech regulation with a senate committee investigating “tech censorship” or “jawboning”, news magazine Vrij Nederland reported on Friday. IIRC this was part of subpoena from Congress? > The cabinet has described the news as “extremely worrying”, given that the named officials could now face travel bans or even sanctions, Vrij Nederland said. This is possible. > “If you want to discuss policy, then you do it with us, not over the backs of civil servants,” digital economy minister Willemijn Aerdts told the magazine. “That has happened and we will now talk to our contacts, including those in the US.” I don't know why they expect to be able to discuss policy constraints without the government of the company's place of business knowing.

moontear 4mo ago
> "I don't know why they expect to be able to discuss policy constraints without the government of the company's place of business knowing." My interpretation of this quote would be that it is not liked that individual names are shared of people working in e.g. the competition authority. They are saying if you want to discuss things, come through the front door, i.e. contact the competition authority which maybe has an official government liaison and don't go after a person who is only responsible for writing some regulation.

djoldman 5mo ago

> Under the US Cloud Act, American companies are required to hand over all information they store to the government if requested to do so, even if it is stored abroad. Hrm. It's my understanding that a US company is required to give almost no data to any government without a warrant.

graemep 4mo ago
True, but a US warrant. So if data is stored on a system in another country owned by an American company, they can be compelled to hand the information to the US government even if it is illegal to do so according to the law of the country where in the information is stored. So, for example, a lot of medical information stored on AWS by the NHS could be obtained by the US government. So could a lot of financial and government data around the world. Zoom calls, Teams meetings, emails sent to GMail. Google Drive and one Drive document. Lots and lots more.

PeterStuer 5mo ago

Follow the money. So far, there has been lots of posturing, but little budget behind those 'sovereignty' initiatives in the EU. Unless this changes, I am going to assume the puppets are just riding out time until their US masters are back in control.

greatgib 5mo ago

As always is some countries and especially in European ones. When citizens have to face the consequence of harmful data mining and sharing behaviors, it is ok because the officials are profiting of it. When it is the officials that have to bear the consequences, then it is scandalous and something needs to be done about it. But just for them to be protected. They don't care for the general population.

rambambram 4mo ago

Schleswig-Holstein works with sovereign tech for their office and email applications.

silexia 4mo ago

Censoring free speech is the end of democracy. We must fight back against government encroachment on our rights.

bigyabai 4mo ago
The right to what, exactly? Extralegally hand over private PII to the government? This article is not a censorship polemic.