6 ms·

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry

by tedggh 5mo ago

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras. Brakes are still good for many more years and tires maybe need replacing in a year. No oil change, no brake pads, no spark plugs, fuel pumps, seals, plus all the time savings scheduling appointments and driving to the dealer. I do see some use cases where hybrids may actually work better, like very long daily commutes in a region lacking charging stations. I believe they are popular because there’s still fear of going full electric, but as many EV owners would tell you that fear is unreasonable and disappears after a few months owning an EV. I go out and run errands with 10% charge. The first days my hands started sweating when the charge dropped under 40%.

wat10000 5mo ago
They made sense when batteries were so expensive that decent range was unaffordable. That era is coming to a close, though.
- dalyons 5mo ago
  Yep, almost obsolete. Will be entirely obsolete once the semi solid batteries make it out of china in the next year or so
caminanteblanco 5mo ago
I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said. For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one. The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given. I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s
- zardo 5mo ago
  Ford has had a similar design (sharing patents with Toyota) since the first Escape Hybrid in '04. But they never stuck with a high mpg platform, they're using it to build 34mpg small trucks and SUVs, not 60mpg cars.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5mo ago
    It's their ploy to game CAFE averages. High MPG cars don't offset their truck lineup. You can also thank the PT Cruiser for hatchback cars like the Mach-E being misclassified as trucks to enhance the gaming.
- saltcured 5mo ago
  I think the biggest reduction is that it essentially replaces the conventional transmission with the hybrid unit. (Planetary gear set and motor-generators.) It drives like a CVT, but it is not a CVT in the sense people know as far as maintenance and reliability issues. It is just a "differential" and electric motor balancing out the ICE engine output to get a desired output drive effect.
  - anon7000 5mo ago
    This whole comment change is exactly what the video is about, how the Toyota hybrid system is actually a lot simpler than pure ICE, and mostly exists to make sure the ICE engine always runs at optimal efficiency
moparts 5mo ago
How many miles in that two years? I put about 14k miles per year on my ICE and have only needed oil changes for 5 years. I know I have a big 200k service coming up but if I only look at the past five years it’s just oil every 7k and tires. Not THAT different, yes?
- testing22321 5mo ago
  If you want it to last you should also be flushing the coolant and brake fluid, changing the transmission oil, air filter and at some point serpentine belt, rad hoses , spark plugs and leads
  - bluGill 5mo ago
    Sure, but those are every 100k miles in most cases. That doesn't happen very often. the brake fluid is in the EV as well.
graemep 5mo ago
How many kids do you have that you need two SUVs to carry them all? its not common.
- bluGill 5mo ago
  In my experience it is that mom and dad both sometimes need to have all the kids and there is no good car swap in between. I drop the kids off for their before school jazz band practice, then my wife picks them up from their after school practice. I really want a tiny car that handles well, but that won't allow the above so I'm driving a SUV that is barely big enough and not fun at all. My kids are soon to reach driving age and that means they can drive themselves - but only if I have another car. I wish I lived where transit existed, but that is a different rant.
- KPGv2 5mo ago
  I'm willing to bet they didn't mean to carry kids that don't fit in two SUVs. Probably meant that logistically, they need two SUVs available. If you aren't American—or are, but don't have kids—you might not be aware that even two kids past 10yo and a sedan is a pretty bad experience. And I'm saying this as someone who loves his sedan, hates large cars, passionately hates SUVs, and definitely never wanted one. I have three kids under 10. None of them can legally ride in the front of my sedan. So they had to be in the back. Three of them in one bench seat. Physically possible, and we did it for a while, but it's just non-stop screaming and fights, and with very little space for all their after-school stuff. I threw out my back trying to make their sports and music stuff fit with my baby's stroller and diaper bag etc. And this is the kicker if you aren't American: everything you do in life has to be done with a car, which means even at two kids, you might be transporting loads of gear every day. I always thought, like my experience growing up, my kids should learn a musical instrument and play a sport. So if a kid picks cello and the sport is tennis, your entire trunk is filled now. And that's not even with a stroller for your third kid that is not self-ambulatory yet. Forget about a tire inflator, jumper cables, or any other standard stuff you should be carrying in your car at all times. So with three kids (extremely common in the US), a sedan is practically unworkable. (Again, I'm saying this as someone who would only drive sedans my whole life if I could. I hate big cars and think they're a needless risk and expense for most people and wish we could heavily restrict their ownership.) Now what if one parent is in charge of the morning stuff then works late, but the other parent is in charge of afternoon stuff because they get off work early. Now you need an SUV for each parent just to manage three kids with a completely normal set of childhood activities. I drive a ID.Buzz now, the LWB so it seats seven. Life is immeasurably easier. Perfect timing, too, with the gas price situation, and I keep the car at 80% charge every day, a few hours of charging off one 120V plug while I sleep, everything's gucci. *edit* One thing I forgot to mention is that carpools to kid events are common here. So extra space to be able to drive one of your kid's friend to the after-game hangout is a of high value. Increases community, etc.
TulliusCicero 5mo ago
We have a couple EVs. Great, except for road trips, where range is more limited at freeway speeds, and charging is slow and obnoxious.
- darknavi 5mo ago
  Definitely different than raod tripping in an ICE. We road trip in our Model Y and end up stopping often regardless of charging for snacking, stretching, walking the dogs, etc. I remember talking to a coworker would couldn't accept taking 10 hours to drive somewhere instead of the 8.5 hours you can make it in an ICE. But then again we are definitely people who puts on road trips.
  - TulliusCicero 5mo ago
    The ratio has been way worse than that in my experience, especially in cold weather. Could easily turn a 3 hour trip from Seattle to Portland to 5-6 hours during winter, when mileage plummets on the freeway. Obviously part of that is that the EV wasn't fully charged when we started, but that's the thing -- being low on gas for an ICE car barely affects travel at all.
    - darknavi 5mo ago
      I guess it depends on the EV. We one-shot Seattle to Portland because it's only ~180 miles. I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip. We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it. Now if we're talking about the traffic in Tacoma or around JBLM that's a different story!
      - TulliusCicero 4mo ago
        > We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it. Just getting off the freeway and back onto it will add ~10 minutes to a trip, and that's assuming the charger is fairly close to the exit, and that you don't have to wait at the charger for an open spot. > I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip. Note that "Time that charging requires != time spent charging". If you have to wait for a spot to open up at a charging station, that's not charging time exactly, but it is something that charging occasionally demands of you. But yeah it fucking sucked. The combination of low temps and freeway speeds tanked our mileage down to like ~50% of the theoretical EPA estimate, and the ID4 seemed to charge pretty slowly too at the Electrify America stations.
harrouet 5mo ago
I have a plug-in hybrid and, although it was not my initial opinion, I came to think that it is the most adapted tech to my usage: - I do 90% of my kilometers to commute to work: 2x40km / day - I need my car to drive 7 hours roughly 4x or 5x per year In my case, I can drive electric to commute to work, as I can charge sporadically (can't do it at home). When driving long distance, I get to use the ICE while charging stations get jammed e.g. on peak traffic weekends. Consumption is much less than pure ICE. Breaking pads are spared by the magnetic brake as well.
- jghn 5mo ago
  Why not rent a car for those 4-5x/year?
  - pjmlp 5mo ago
    I used to do that, however depends on where you live. In Germany the amount you have to pay not to worry about every little scratch from a few mm, means I rather have my own scratches. Then on the Mediterranean islands usually rental is the only option, unless one likes to pay taxis all the time, and most rentals take advantage of non locals as much as they can get away with. Yes some do have buses, if you want to be stuck in the main cities.
    - lmm 5mo ago
      > on the Mediterranean islands usually rental is the only option It's not like buying an ICE or hybrid instead of an EV helps with this scenario at all.
      - pjmlp 5mo ago
        Ferries exist.
        harrouet 5mo ago
        Sure: a cabin + a car between Barcelona to Mallorca cost 500€.
MegaDeKay 5mo ago
Another consideration is your local climate. It can get down to -40C here. Both ICE and EVs pay a range penalty in those conditions, but it compounds the problem with charging station density that EVs have + the time it takes to charge. And at least with an ICE, all that engine heat can be put to good use trying to keep the interior warm.
- luplex 5mo ago
  Having a heat pump for heating is then really important, as compared to a simple resistive heating element
  - margalabargala 5mo ago
    Heat pumps work up to a certain temperature delta. They don't heat so good in -40.
    - MegaDeKay 5mo ago
      Yep. I put a heat pump in my house last year. It doesn't function at all below "only" -30C and doesn't make economic sense vs my natural gas furnace until around 0C. I got it instead of a plain air conditioner only so I had a backup to my furnace.
    - matthewdgreen 5mo ago
      The number of cars that experience -40F(C) in a year is something like 3% of all cars. In the US that number is more like 0.5%. And even within that 3%, the average number of days where cars experience that temperature is on the order of a 3-6 at most. We spend a lot of time worrying about edge cases.
- darknavi 5mo ago
  Cold soaked batteries are definitely less ideal but if you can plug in at home, planning your charge times and pre-conditioning the car while plugged in significantly reduces the range effects (and preheats the cabin for you!)
- 5mo ago
stronglikedan 5mo ago
Hybrids do make sense, but like everything else, for specific use cases. I do a lot of road tripping, so a hybrid is ideal. Charging is still way too slow to do multiple times per trip.
- __turbobrew__ 5mo ago
  This is the reason why I got a hybrid. Many of my trips are on routes that don’t have good charging access and charging is just too slow for the length of trips. Also, I bought a rav4 hybrid which is one of the most common cars on the road here and therefore mechanics have a lot of experience working on these vehicles.
saltcured 5mo ago
Just to qualify "log daily commutes", hybrid is really most beneficial, compared to ICE, for "city" driving. Long in duration with lots of speed changes and stopping, rather than as a highway cruise. If you include the other efficiency tweaks like aerodynamics, wheel choices, etc., then an ICE car can also do very well in those highway conditions. But, the optimized or "right-sized" ICE for highway cruising may feel underpowered in some conditions. The hybrid also helps here, much like a turbocharger, by boosting power output temporarily to mitigate this.
Ferret7446 5mo ago
1. Are you able to charge at home? 2. Are you aware that many people cannot charge at home?
tzs 5mo ago
> After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense In some places in the US the hybrid can have lower energy costs per mile. Using the average price/kWh of residential electricity and the average price/gallon of gasoline in each US state as of maybe a year ago (I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while) a Toyota Prius would beat my EV (which the sticker says is 129 MPGe city, 103 MPGe highway) on the highway in 15 states: Alaska, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Texas, and Vermont. The Prius would win in city driving in 8 states: Connecticut, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont. For people who do not have home charging or cheap destination charging and have to rely on public DC charging stations the Prius wins in most states even with today's super high gas prices. If DC charging costs $0.40/kWh for example, the Prius wins on the highway if gas is under $7.33/gal and in the city if it is under $5.85/gal. If anyone wants to check it for their particular electrify and gas prices, compute the ratio of gas $/gal to electricity $/kWh. E.g., if gas is $4/gal and electricity at your home is $0.20/kWh the ratio is 20. The Prius beats an EV with the MPGe of mine on the highway if the ratio is under 18.325, and in the city if the ratio is under 14.625. To adjust for your EV multiply those thresholds by my MPGe divided by your MPGe. To adjust for non-Prius hybrids or ICEs, multiply the threshold by the other car's mpg and divide by the Prius mpg (56 highway, 56 city).
- jerlam 5mo ago
  Many states also tack on an EV specific registration fee that applies regardless of miles driven, over $200 in some places.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
- TacticalCoder 5mo ago
  > ... a Toyota Prius would beat my EV (which the sticker says is 129 MPGe city, 103 MPGe highway) on the highway in 15 states I posted a not dissimilar comment in reply to someone else: I ran the numbers and in a country with high electricity the savings of an EV simply aren't that stellar compared to an ICE car. It's not clear at all if at the end the TCO is lower or not: basically the savings on gasoline / oil / brake pads may not be sufficient to offset the higher price and faster depreciation of the EV.
AtlasBarfed 5mo ago
I can tell you live in a city. I live in the boonies and routinely do multiple hundred mile trips, in bad winter weather. Also, the hybrid shown, Toyota's Sienna, maddeningly doesn't come with a plugin. WHY.
TacticalCoder 5mo ago
> No oil change, no brake pads, no spark plugs, fuel pumps, seals, plus all the time savings scheduling appointments and driving to the dealer. ICE here, goes to the dealership, what, once a year? 13 years in and 135 000 km done with the car (which I bought used, when it was 4 years old). I ran the numbers yesterday: savings on gas when moving to full EV really aren't that stellar in my case (about 10 000 km/years now: I drive a bit less than I used to) and I have a gas guzzler. Electricity in my country is one of the highest in Europe. Instead of paying, say, 2000 EUR / year in gasoline I'd pay 1 000 EUR in electricity (much more if using the pricier supercharger). So I save 1 K EUR / year on gas. OK, but car depreciation? EV vehicles prices apparently do fall like a very hard rock. Not only that: apparently EV prices do fall even faster than ICE and morever brand new EVs tend to be, compared to a similar brand new ICE car, more pricey. So the fall is even harder. So as for now I'll keep the yearly dealership trip to deal with those "pesky" oil changes, spark plugs, brake pads, etc. I mean: it's not as if since my parents (the boomers) and my grand-parents we didn't have ICE cars ownership pretty much figured out. And some of the modern ICE engines are proven to be extremely reliable (so if you DYOR you can buy a used ICE car and be pretty reasonably sure it'll be a good workhorse). The "you'll save money" argument seems dubious. Your "no oil change" argument seems a bit light too. I understand the "you'll save the planet" a bit more but I'm a "show me the money (savings)" person.
Tor3 5mo ago
> I do see some use cases where hybrids may actually work better, like very long daily commutes in a region lacking charging stations. That's exactly it, and why hybrids are very common in China outside the urban areas. Here in Japan there are still a lot of hybrids, and I and my spouse drove one (a rental) for a few days, in an area just like that - no charging stations, and, as we were basically tourists, no home charging options either. It was like any other car most of the time, except for the display showing how the battery got recharged whenever braking. The interesting part came when we were finished with the trip and, as one has to, filled up the tank to 100% on the rental.. and it was almost nothing. Just had to top it up a little bit, that was all.
tomaskafka 5mo ago
“Just get an EV” is the “let them eat cake” in disguise. If I had a house and could charge EV at home, and had 1-2 kids, I might consider Tesla. Public charging has iterated roughly to what gasoline costs (because that’s what people are willing to pay), and once you need 5 full seats, there is just a handful of options, and they (eg. Kia EV9) easily costs 3x more than lightly used MPV of a same size.

by tedggh 5mo ago

wat10000 5mo ago

They made sense when batteries were so expensive that decent range was unaffordable. That era is coming to a close, though.

dalyons 5mo ago
Yep, almost obsolete. Will be entirely obsolete once the semi solid batteries make it out of china in the next year or so

caminanteblanco 5mo ago

I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said. For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one. The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given. I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s

zardo 5mo ago
Ford has had a similar design (sharing patents with Toyota) since the first Escape Hybrid in '04. But they never stuck with a high mpg platform, they're using it to build 34mpg small trucks and SUVs, not 60mpg cars.
- kevin_thibedeau 5mo ago
  It's their ploy to game CAFE averages. High MPG cars don't offset their truck lineup. You can also thank the PT Cruiser for hatchback cars like the Mach-E being misclassified as trucks to enhance the gaming.
saltcured 5mo ago
I think the biggest reduction is that it essentially replaces the conventional transmission with the hybrid unit. (Planetary gear set and motor-generators.) It drives like a CVT, but it is not a CVT in the sense people know as far as maintenance and reliability issues. It is just a "differential" and electric motor balancing out the ICE engine output to get a desired output drive effect.
- anon7000 5mo ago
  This whole comment change is exactly what the video is about, how the Toyota hybrid system is actually a lot simpler than pure ICE, and mostly exists to make sure the ICE engine always runs at optimal efficiency

moparts 5mo ago

How many miles in that two years? I put about 14k miles per year on my ICE and have only needed oil changes for 5 years. I know I have a big 200k service coming up but if I only look at the past five years it’s just oil every 7k and tires. Not THAT different, yes?

testing22321 5mo ago
If you want it to last you should also be flushing the coolant and brake fluid, changing the transmission oil, air filter and at some point serpentine belt, rad hoses , spark plugs and leads
- bluGill 5mo ago
  Sure, but those are every 100k miles in most cases. That doesn't happen very often. the brake fluid is in the EV as well.

graemep 5mo ago

How many kids do you have that you need two SUVs to carry them all? its not common.

bluGill 5mo ago
In my experience it is that mom and dad both sometimes need to have all the kids and there is no good car swap in between. I drop the kids off for their before school jazz band practice, then my wife picks them up from their after school practice. I really want a tiny car that handles well, but that won't allow the above so I'm driving a SUV that is barely big enough and not fun at all. My kids are soon to reach driving age and that means they can drive themselves - but only if I have another car. I wish I lived where transit existed, but that is a different rant.
KPGv2 5mo ago
I'm willing to bet they didn't mean to carry kids that don't fit in two SUVs. Probably meant that logistically, they need two SUVs available. If you aren't American—or are, but don't have kids—you might not be aware that even two kids past 10yo and a sedan is a pretty bad experience. And I'm saying this as someone who loves his sedan, hates large cars, passionately hates SUVs, and definitely never wanted one. I have three kids under 10. None of them can legally ride in the front of my sedan. So they had to be in the back. Three of them in one bench seat. Physically possible, and we did it for a while, but it's just non-stop screaming and fights, and with very little space for all their after-school stuff. I threw out my back trying to make their sports and music stuff fit with my baby's stroller and diaper bag etc. And this is the kicker if you aren't American: everything you do in life has to be done with a car, which means even at two kids, you might be transporting loads of gear every day. I always thought, like my experience growing up, my kids should learn a musical instrument and play a sport. So if a kid picks cello and the sport is tennis, your entire trunk is filled now. And that's not even with a stroller for your third kid that is not self-ambulatory yet. Forget about a tire inflator, jumper cables, or any other standard stuff you should be carrying in your car at all times. So with three kids (extremely common in the US), a sedan is practically unworkable. (Again, I'm saying this as someone who would only drive sedans my whole life if I could. I hate big cars and think they're a needless risk and expense for most people and wish we could heavily restrict their ownership.) Now what if one parent is in charge of the morning stuff then works late, but the other parent is in charge of afternoon stuff because they get off work early. Now you need an SUV for each parent just to manage three kids with a completely normal set of childhood activities. I drive a ID.Buzz now, the LWB so it seats seven. Life is immeasurably easier. Perfect timing, too, with the gas price situation, and I keep the car at 80% charge every day, a few hours of charging off one 120V plug while I sleep, everything's gucci. *edit* One thing I forgot to mention is that carpools to kid events are common here. So extra space to be able to drive one of your kid's friend to the after-game hangout is a of high value. Increases community, etc.

TulliusCicero 5mo ago

We have a couple EVs. Great, except for road trips, where range is more limited at freeway speeds, and charging is slow and obnoxious.

darknavi 5mo ago
Definitely different than raod tripping in an ICE. We road trip in our Model Y and end up stopping often regardless of charging for snacking, stretching, walking the dogs, etc. I remember talking to a coworker would couldn't accept taking 10 hours to drive somewhere instead of the 8.5 hours you can make it in an ICE. But then again we are definitely people who puts on road trips.
- TulliusCicero 5mo ago
  The ratio has been way worse than that in my experience, especially in cold weather. Could easily turn a 3 hour trip from Seattle to Portland to 5-6 hours during winter, when mileage plummets on the freeway. Obviously part of that is that the EV wasn't fully charged when we started, but that's the thing -- being low on gas for an ICE car barely affects travel at all.
  - darknavi 5mo ago
    I guess it depends on the EV. We one-shot Seattle to Portland because it's only ~180 miles. I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip. We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it. Now if we're talking about the traffic in Tacoma or around JBLM that's a different story!
    - TulliusCicero 4mo ago
      > We'll spend ~20-30 minutes charging on the way home but that's it. Just getting off the freeway and back onto it will add ~10 minutes to a trip, and that's assuming the charger is fairly close to the exit, and that you don't have to wait at the charger for an open spot. > I can't imagine spending 2-3 hours charging on that trip. Note that "Time that charging requires != time spent charging". If you have to wait for a spot to open up at a charging station, that's not charging time exactly, but it is something that charging occasionally demands of you. But yeah it fucking sucked. The combination of low temps and freeway speeds tanked our mileage down to like ~50% of the theoretical EPA estimate, and the ID4 seemed to charge pretty slowly too at the Electrify America stations.

harrouet 5mo ago

I have a plug-in hybrid and, although it was not my initial opinion, I came to think that it is the most adapted tech to my usage: - I do 90% of my kilometers to commute to work: 2x40km / day - I need my car to drive 7 hours roughly 4x or 5x per year In my case, I can drive electric to commute to work, as I can charge sporadically (can't do it at home). When driving long distance, I get to use the ICE while charging stations get jammed e.g. on peak traffic weekends. Consumption is much less than pure ICE. Breaking pads are spared by the magnetic brake as well.

jghn 5mo ago
Why not rent a car for those 4-5x/year?
- pjmlp 5mo ago
  I used to do that, however depends on where you live. In Germany the amount you have to pay not to worry about every little scratch from a few mm, means I rather have my own scratches. Then on the Mediterranean islands usually rental is the only option, unless one likes to pay taxis all the time, and most rentals take advantage of non locals as much as they can get away with. Yes some do have buses, if you want to be stuck in the main cities.
  - lmm 5mo ago
    > on the Mediterranean islands usually rental is the only option It's not like buying an ICE or hybrid instead of an EV helps with this scenario at all.
    - pjmlp 5mo ago
      Ferries exist.
      - harrouet 5mo ago
        Sure: a cabin + a car between Barcelona to Mallorca cost 500€.

MegaDeKay 5mo ago

Another consideration is your local climate. It can get down to -40C here. Both ICE and EVs pay a range penalty in those conditions, but it compounds the problem with charging station density that EVs have + the time it takes to charge. And at least with an ICE, all that engine heat can be put to good use trying to keep the interior warm.

luplex 5mo ago
Having a heat pump for heating is then really important, as compared to a simple resistive heating element
- margalabargala 5mo ago
  Heat pumps work up to a certain temperature delta. They don't heat so good in -40.
  - MegaDeKay 5mo ago
    Yep. I put a heat pump in my house last year. It doesn't function at all below "only" -30C and doesn't make economic sense vs my natural gas furnace until around 0C. I got it instead of a plain air conditioner only so I had a backup to my furnace.
  - matthewdgreen 5mo ago
    The number of cars that experience -40F(C) in a year is something like 3% of all cars. In the US that number is more like 0.5%. And even within that 3%, the average number of days where cars experience that temperature is on the order of a 3-6 at most. We spend a lot of time worrying about edge cases.
darknavi 5mo ago
Cold soaked batteries are definitely less ideal but if you can plug in at home, planning your charge times and pre-conditioning the car while plugged in significantly reduces the range effects (and preheats the cabin for you!)
5mo ago

stronglikedan 5mo ago

Hybrids do make sense, but like everything else, for specific use cases. I do a lot of road tripping, so a hybrid is ideal. Charging is still way too slow to do multiple times per trip.

__turbobrew__ 5mo ago
This is the reason why I got a hybrid. Many of my trips are on routes that don’t have good charging access and charging is just too slow for the length of trips. Also, I bought a rav4 hybrid which is one of the most common cars on the road here and therefore mechanics have a lot of experience working on these vehicles.

saltcured 5mo ago

Just to qualify "log daily commutes", hybrid is really most beneficial, compared to ICE, for "city" driving. Long in duration with lots of speed changes and stopping, rather than as a highway cruise. If you include the other efficiency tweaks like aerodynamics, wheel choices, etc., then an ICE car can also do very well in those highway conditions. But, the optimized or "right-sized" ICE for highway cruising may feel underpowered in some conditions. The hybrid also helps here, much like a turbocharger, by boosting power output temporarily to mitigate this.

Ferret7446 5mo ago

1. Are you able to charge at home? 2. Are you aware that many people cannot charge at home?

tzs 5mo ago

> After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense In some places in the US the hybrid can have lower energy costs per mile. Using the average price/kWh of residential electricity and the average price/gallon of gasoline in each US state as of maybe a year ago (I haven't updated my spreadsheet in a while) a Toyota Prius would beat my EV (which the sticker says is 129 MPGe city, 103 MPGe highway) on the highway in 15 states: Alaska, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Texas, and Vermont. The Prius would win in city driving in 8 states: Connecticut, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont. For people who do not have home charging or cheap destination charging and have to rely on public DC charging stations the Prius wins in most states even with today's super high gas prices. If DC charging costs $0.40/kWh for example, the Prius wins on the highway if gas is under $7.33/gal and in the city if it is under $5.85/gal. If anyone wants to check it for their particular electrify and gas prices, compute the ratio of gas $/gal to electricity $/kWh. E.g., if gas is $4/gal and electricity at your home is $0.20/kWh the ratio is 20. The Prius beats an EV with the MPGe of mine on the highway if the ratio is under 18.325, and in the city if the ratio is under 14.625. To adjust for your EV multiply those thresholds by my MPGe divided by your MPGe. To adjust for non-Prius hybrids or ICEs, multiply the threshold by the other car's mpg and divide by the Prius mpg (56 highway, 56 city).

jerlam 5mo ago
Many states also tack on an EV specific registration fee that applies regardless of miles driven, over $200 in some places.
deleted 5mo ago
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TacticalCoder 5mo ago
> ... a Toyota Prius would beat my EV (which the sticker says is 129 MPGe city, 103 MPGe highway) on the highway in 15 states I posted a not dissimilar comment in reply to someone else: I ran the numbers and in a country with high electricity the savings of an EV simply aren't that stellar compared to an ICE car. It's not clear at all if at the end the TCO is lower or not: basically the savings on gasoline / oil / brake pads may not be sufficient to offset the higher price and faster depreciation of the EV.

AtlasBarfed 5mo ago

I can tell you live in a city. I live in the boonies and routinely do multiple hundred mile trips, in bad winter weather. Also, the hybrid shown, Toyota's Sienna, maddeningly doesn't come with a plugin. WHY.

TacticalCoder 5mo ago

> No oil change, no brake pads, no spark plugs, fuel pumps, seals, plus all the time savings scheduling appointments and driving to the dealer. ICE here, goes to the dealership, what, once a year? 13 years in and 135 000 km done with the car (which I bought used, when it was 4 years old). I ran the numbers yesterday: savings on gas when moving to full EV really aren't that stellar in my case (about 10 000 km/years now: I drive a bit less than I used to) and I have a gas guzzler. Electricity in my country is one of the highest in Europe. Instead of paying, say, 2000 EUR / year in gasoline I'd pay 1 000 EUR in electricity (much more if using the pricier supercharger). So I save 1 K EUR / year on gas. OK, but car depreciation? EV vehicles prices apparently do fall like a very hard rock. Not only that: apparently EV prices do fall even faster than ICE and morever brand new EVs tend to be, compared to a similar brand new ICE car, more pricey. So the fall is even harder. So as for now I'll keep the yearly dealership trip to deal with those "pesky" oil changes, spark plugs, brake pads, etc. I mean: it's not as if since my parents (the boomers) and my grand-parents we didn't have ICE cars ownership pretty much figured out. And some of the modern ICE engines are proven to be extremely reliable (so if you DYOR you can buy a used ICE car and be pretty reasonably sure it'll be a good workhorse). The "you'll save money" argument seems dubious. Your "no oil change" argument seems a bit light too. I understand the "you'll save the planet" a bit more but I'm a "show me the money (savings)" person.

Tor3 5mo ago

> I do see some use cases where hybrids may actually work better, like very long daily commutes in a region lacking charging stations. That's exactly it, and why hybrids are very common in China outside the urban areas. Here in Japan there are still a lot of hybrids, and I and my spouse drove one (a rental) for a few days, in an area just like that - no charging stations, and, as we were basically tourists, no home charging options either. It was like any other car most of the time, except for the display showing how the battery got recharged whenever braking. The interesting part came when we were finished with the trip and, as one has to, filled up the tank to 100% on the rental.. and it was almost nothing. Just had to top it up a little bit, that was all.

tomaskafka 5mo ago

“Just get an EV” is the “let them eat cake” in disguise. If I had a house and could charge EV at home, and had 1-2 kids, I might consider Tesla. Public charging has iterated roughly to what gasoline costs (because that’s what people are willing to pay), and once you need 5 full seats, there is just a handful of options, and they (eg. Kia EV9) easily costs 3x more than lightly used MPV of a same size.