5 ms·

Agentic Trading with Safe Guardrails

55 points by jgan0978 5mo ago

0x5FC3 5mo ago
More ways than one to burn money with agents :)
- jgan0978 5mo ago
  giving y'all another way
- m3kw9 5mo ago
  You cannot possibly get info faster and analyse them more then the hedge funds. It better be some crazy bespoke stuff you are doing to get ahead for maybe a couple seconds before the gap gets filled.
  - KellyCriterion 5mo ago
    there are tons of other trading activities than HFT, in which you can easily deploy agents as it is not everywhere about milliseconds and exchange-CoLo
  - satvikpendem 5mo ago
    HFT != Algorithmic trading
    - HolyLampshade 5mo ago
      And to extend this, low frequency does not mean slow speed. HFT mostly covers how often you are trading. Some low frequency strategies require near instantaneous (sub microsecond) execution capability in order to beat people trading on the same signal.
this_user 5mo ago
Trying to trade with generalist LLMs is just an exercise in futility, because none of these models have ever seen the inside of a real trading firm. None of that knowledge is in their training sets.
- cheesemayo 5mo ago
  It's worse. The special lingo doesn't make a good trader. You can be certain the firms looked ahead and had specialized ML tools built and ready to go. And yet, none of them stand out for success, over the past decades and into this LLM bloom. The way to riches there is just like during the gold rush: The people making money are the ones selling shovels and canteens and wheat, not the ones running sluice boxes. AI is no panacea.
- cyanydeez 5mo ago
  also, the bulk of literature is indistinguishable from bunkum
- ano-ther 5mo ago
  Didn’t DeepSeek originate from a HedgeFund model? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepSeek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepSeek
  - askmike 5mo ago
    They are quants with a deep experience in trading that started to develop general LLMs as a side business, that does not mean their experience is baked into their models.
    - heywassupemir 5mo ago
      hey, could you please give some idea about those quant bots a little bit? I'd appreciate if you leave some reference links to get an idea. Thanks
ruliad 5mo ago
[dead]
mlmonkey 5mo ago
> Plug your agent into the sources where information breaks first. Twitter, Telegram, Discord, on-chain activity. Your agent acts before the market does. In a world where people are fighting with each other to see who can get closer to the trading systems in order to shave off milliseconds, this seems glacial.
- satvikpendem 5mo ago
  High frequency trading != algorithmic trading, common misconception. HFT is a subset of algorithmic trading but does not encompass all of it.
  - HolyLampshade 5mo ago
    While true (I 100% agree with you in the distinction), the statement is “Your agent acts before the market does”, which is simply not going to be the case (assuming this is helping run some sort of trend following strategy). Professional traders who are sensitive to alternative public data sources are already taking that data in quickly and their execution is colocated with the venues. You’re still going to be significantly behind the curve (to a financially dangerous extent in my opinion).
    - satvikpendem 5mo ago
      That's true, however there might still be money to be made from retail investors like in 2021, rather than strictly institutional investors.
      - janderson215 5mo ago
        Would be interesting to see if widespread (or at least high volume) adoption that is trading based on these signals leads to a more efficient market on net. Of course there will be plenty more attempts at manipulation, but maybe orders of magnitude good players over bad players once the dust settles.
kordlessagain 5mo ago
[flagged]
victorbjorklund 5mo ago
Using LLM:s to trade makes no sense at all (outside some narrow strategies trying to trade fast on news etc)
la64710 5mo ago
While most folks are quick to write off agentic trading attempts for various reasons, one strength that I see in using LLMs is its capability to bring together disparate information sources and chart a path forward.I do agree it is a very advanced word calculator but that seems to work most of the time unless there is a massive information gap in the original data sources.
- asdff 5mo ago
  >capability to bring together disparate information sources and chart a path forward This isn't really anything you couldn't do already though.
- deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
torlok 5mo ago
It's there any evidence that trading off of headlines works long-term?
yieldcrv 5mo ago
I agentically track potential catalysts that the market forgets about (judging from implied volatility in the options market) It works AMA
m463 5mo ago
I remember a friend telling me the state highway department used to call them guardrails, but after some lawsuits, they started calling them guide rails. This legal distinction was because they didn't want to imply they could prevent accidents.
jacobr1 5mo ago
Where are the "Safe Guardrails" ?
SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago
I know it's bad manners to point out when "repositories" of "code" are just markdown files, but these are even more pointless markdown than most. They're just telling agents how to use their public, documented API. What is the possible scenario where an agent working with Shuriken would not load "Integrating and building with Shuriken" into context? (Where are the "safe guardrails" in the hallucinated title?)
btbuildem 5mo ago
I have one very simple rule when it comes to anything "stockmarket" or "trading" If it worked, you would not have published a paper or a OSS project -- you would have leveraged it to do actual trading. Anything in these domains that you find on the internet for free, does not work.
- vpribish 5mo ago
  this is the rock solid truth

55 points by jgan0978 5mo ago

0x5FC3 5mo ago

More ways than one to burn money with agents :)

jgan0978 5mo ago
giving y'all another way
m3kw9 5mo ago
You cannot possibly get info faster and analyse them more then the hedge funds. It better be some crazy bespoke stuff you are doing to get ahead for maybe a couple seconds before the gap gets filled.
- KellyCriterion 5mo ago
  there are tons of other trading activities than HFT, in which you can easily deploy agents as it is not everywhere about milliseconds and exchange-CoLo
- satvikpendem 5mo ago
  HFT != Algorithmic trading
  - HolyLampshade 5mo ago
    And to extend this, low frequency does not mean slow speed. HFT mostly covers how often you are trading. Some low frequency strategies require near instantaneous (sub microsecond) execution capability in order to beat people trading on the same signal.

this_user 5mo ago

Trying to trade with generalist LLMs is just an exercise in futility, because none of these models have ever seen the inside of a real trading firm. None of that knowledge is in their training sets.

cheesemayo 5mo ago
It's worse. The special lingo doesn't make a good trader. You can be certain the firms looked ahead and had specialized ML tools built and ready to go. And yet, none of them stand out for success, over the past decades and into this LLM bloom. The way to riches there is just like during the gold rush: The people making money are the ones selling shovels and canteens and wheat, not the ones running sluice boxes. AI is no panacea.
cyanydeez 5mo ago
also, the bulk of literature is indistinguishable from bunkum
ano-ther 5mo ago
Didn’t DeepSeek originate from a HedgeFund model? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepSeek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepSeek
- askmike 5mo ago
  They are quants with a deep experience in trading that started to develop general LLMs as a side business, that does not mean their experience is baked into their models.
  - heywassupemir 5mo ago
    hey, could you please give some idea about those quant bots a little bit? I'd appreciate if you leave some reference links to get an idea. Thanks

ruliad 5mo ago

[dead]

mlmonkey 5mo ago

> Plug your agent into the sources where information breaks first. Twitter, Telegram, Discord, on-chain activity. Your agent acts before the market does. In a world where people are fighting with each other to see who can get closer to the trading systems in order to shave off milliseconds, this seems glacial.

satvikpendem 5mo ago
High frequency trading != algorithmic trading, common misconception. HFT is a subset of algorithmic trading but does not encompass all of it.
- HolyLampshade 5mo ago
  While true (I 100% agree with you in the distinction), the statement is “Your agent acts before the market does”, which is simply not going to be the case (assuming this is helping run some sort of trend following strategy). Professional traders who are sensitive to alternative public data sources are already taking that data in quickly and their execution is colocated with the venues. You’re still going to be significantly behind the curve (to a financially dangerous extent in my opinion).
  - satvikpendem 5mo ago
    That's true, however there might still be money to be made from retail investors like in 2021, rather than strictly institutional investors.
    - janderson215 5mo ago
      Would be interesting to see if widespread (or at least high volume) adoption that is trading based on these signals leads to a more efficient market on net. Of course there will be plenty more attempts at manipulation, but maybe orders of magnitude good players over bad players once the dust settles.

kordlessagain 5mo ago

[flagged]

victorbjorklund 5mo ago

Using LLM:s to trade makes no sense at all (outside some narrow strategies trying to trade fast on news etc)

la64710 5mo ago

While most folks are quick to write off agentic trading attempts for various reasons, one strength that I see in using LLMs is its capability to bring together disparate information sources and chart a path forward.I do agree it is a very advanced word calculator but that seems to work most of the time unless there is a massive information gap in the original data sources.

asdff 5mo ago
>capability to bring together disparate information sources and chart a path forward This isn't really anything you couldn't do already though.
deleted 5mo ago
[deleted]

torlok 5mo ago

It's there any evidence that trading off of headlines works long-term?

yieldcrv 5mo ago

I agentically track potential catalysts that the market forgets about (judging from implied volatility in the options market) It works AMA

m463 5mo ago

I remember a friend telling me the state highway department used to call them guardrails, but after some lawsuits, they started calling them guide rails. This legal distinction was because they didn't want to imply they could prevent accidents.

jacobr1 5mo ago

Where are the "Safe Guardrails" ?

SpicyLemonZest 5mo ago

I know it's bad manners to point out when "repositories" of "code" are just markdown files, but these are even more pointless markdown than most. They're just telling agents how to use their public, documented API. What is the possible scenario where an agent working with Shuriken would not load "Integrating and building with Shuriken" into context? (Where are the "safe guardrails" in the hallucinated title?)

btbuildem 5mo ago

I have one very simple rule when it comes to anything "stockmarket" or "trading" If it worked, you would not have published a paper or a OSS project -- you would have leveraged it to do actual trading. Anything in these domains that you find on the internet for free, does not work.

vpribish 5mo ago
this is the rock solid truth