6 ms·

People shouldn't have to go to a special store or buy special tools requiring special skills to change a battery.

by OutOfHere 7mo ago

throwaway27448 7mo ago
I'd rather my phone be waterproof than have a battery I can replace myself
- bombcar 7mo ago
  It's likely impossible to legislate but it would be nice to say "each generation has to have one user-replaceable battery". Everyone who doesn't care (the 99%) can buy the iPhone 19x, and the people who want replaceable batteries can get the iPhone B.
  - konschubert 7mo ago
    Then the 99% have to pay extra to subsidise the compliance phone for the 1%...
- OutOfHere 7mo ago
  Why do you imply that the phone could no longer be waterproof? Granted, it would take a bit of extra engineering to make it comparably waterproof. There is no reasonable implication that water needs to leak into the internals of the device where it makes contact with the battery.
- orbital-decay 7mo ago
  Those are not mutually exclusive at all, and there were waterproof phones with replaceable batteries (without even needing a screwdriver). This is mostly an excuse.
  - throwaway27448 7mo ago
    I am not sure I believe this, but I'm sure there are phones that attempted it.
    - Aachen 7mo ago
      Then read upthread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835184 I just don't see why we can't have nice things until proven otherwise (especially considering there is already evidence that this works), rather than have glued-shut devices until proven otherwise (by whom then? Apparently IP and practical experiences aren't enough for you)
      - syncsynchalt 7mo ago
        Samsung only rated the S5 Active as water resistant, and only IP67. We're talking about IP68, where you can take a new phone with you on a long swim.
        Aachen 7mo ago
        I clicked the "parent comment" link all the way to the submission, and opened the submission as well. Nothing mentions IP68. Which "we" is this goalpost coming from?
        throwaway27448 6mo ago
        I had an s5. It was neither waterproof nor even water resistant—the enclosure got too banged up to ensure seals stay sealed.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- cowl 7mo ago
  you can have both. the waterproof was just an excuse to make you either change the phone or go to a specialised center to change the battery, something that is so incovinient/expensive that people just obsolete their phone instead.
  - wa2flq 7mo ago
    I trust that most batteries from iPhones are currently recycled through proper means either by Apple or third party firms. I don't know how most people will dispose of user replacement batteries, but I suspect the recycle rates will be lower. If you want to ensure higher rates you also need to do something they do in the USA for car lead acid batteries. Charge a deposit fee on the new battery that is returned only when the battery is turned into a valid recycling entity.
- tokyobreakfast 7mo ago
  How is it that I owned a fully-submersible phone—with user replaceable battery—over 15 years ago? You've bought into and are now parroting Apple & Samsung marketing BS. P.S. it had a headphone jack too. Gaskets over the ports. The headphone jack was the first victim of "but muh waterproof" despite all the other holes and cutouts.
- q3k 7mo ago
  We have the technology to have both - it's called a gasket.
- gambiting 7mo ago
  Plenty of phones that were waterproof and had replacable batteries already. This isn't new or even particularily hard to do. For a simplest example - somehow my watch is waterproof to 200M down and replacing the battery just takes a tiny screwdriver. Gaskets are not particualarly hard to work with.
brk 7mo ago
In a perfect world, sure. But people also want phones these days that are physically durable, have some degree of waterproofing/water resistance, maximum battery life, etc. Many of the demands and expectations of a modern phone aren't easily compatible with a replaceable battery design that can withstand the incompetence of the average end user.
- lolftw 7mo ago
  A GoPro fits all of those requirements and has easily replaceable batteries. Now, I understand that the shape and sizes are different. But I wouldn't mind some extra mm of thickness (I already get a pretty big camera bump anyway) if that means I can replace a battery faster.
  - dmitrygr 7mo ago
    YOU would not mind, many others would.
    - spaqin 6mo ago
      We don't have a choice in the first place, minding or not. People who would mind missing a 3.5mm jack or replaceable battery have no say anyway, as none of the flagship devices on the market have either.
      - solenoid0937 6mo ago
        Have you ever wondered why none of the flagship devices have one? If the demand existed the devices would as well.
        dvdkon 6mo ago
        That only holds if you believe the market has a high level of efficiency. Maybe if we wait long enough, the distribution of devices being manufactured will match consumer preferences, but I don't believe that to be the case today. The iPhone Mini sold ~millions of units. That may not be enough for Apple, but it's certainly enough to make a profit, yet nobody's building small phones now.
nonethewiser 7mo ago
Engage with the content of his comment instead of resorting to ad hominem. He's right - the market wants embedded batteries, although perhaps not directly. Embedded batteries have improved price, battery capacity, water proofing, size, and strength. If the consumer really wanted a removable battery and all that that entails then there would be more phones that offered that. The reality is people misjudge what all that entails. By all means, I would love to just make the iPhone battery directly replaceable without any compromises but that's not reality.
- OutOfHere 7mo ago
  I originally did engage with the comment. Water-resistance absolutely still is physically possible if the replacement battery is waterproof. Water can over time be corrosive at the contacts, but that's a risk for the user. It does not in any way imply that water will enter the internals of the device from the point of contact with the battery. This will require a bit of engineering at the contact to ensure that water doesn't enter the device. As for the size argument, adding 2 mm of thickness is less important than providing five years of extra life.
  - addaon 7mo ago
    Wait, are you proposing sealing the phone and sealing the battery separately, but not sealing the contacts between them? That’s… super sketchy for salt water immersion. Unless you add fuses and a BMS and safety mechanisms into the “battery”. In which case wouldn’t customers want to be able to replace the actual battery within the now-a-battery-plus-computer phone accessory once it wears down?
- Aachen 7mo ago
  "instead of resorting to ad hominem" Was this edited out or which part do you mean?
  - nonethewiser 7mo ago
    calling him a shill for having a different opinion. just an attack on the person. based on nothing and distracts from the substance of his comment.
avalys 7mo ago
How do you feel about the batteries in electric vehicles? What about wearable devices like a smartwatch, headphones, smart glasses? Should all these be consumer-replaceable without tools, regardless of the effect on the other things people value in these devices (waterproofing, size and weight, battery life, etc.)? FYI I do not work for anything close to the consumer tech industry.
- ramon156 7mo ago
  > without tools With commercially available tools, yes. The argument is that, given the skill, you could pull it off. Then again, maybe cars are a different category. I really don't have enough skilll to add to this discussion
  - linhns 7mo ago
    In other words: IKEA-esque. Should be the goal of any so-called modular systems.
  - konschubert 7mo ago
    > The argument is that, given the skill, you could pull it off. Obviously true for any iPhone battery.
    - gf000 7mo ago
      [dead]
- orbital-decay 7mo ago
  For EVs you need at least a hoist/lifter/crane/other power tool to replace a battery. But sure, there's no actual engineering reason they can't be replaced by the user. Same for the smartwatch - you can replace a battery in most ordinary wristwatches that use them, why not the smart ones? IEMs are usually too small and that's where the engineering limitations might matter. Headphones, no problem.
- Zak 7mo ago
  In software architecture, we talk about essential complexity and incidental complexity. Essential complexity is inherent to the problem being solved; it can't be eliminated through better tools, process, or design. Incidental complexity is anything added by poor choices or flawed tools. Every line in a "hello world" program that isn't something pretty close to `print("hello world")` is incidental complexity. To change the battery in electric vehicles that follow typical present-day design patterns, it's essential to have a way to get some clearance under the vehicles like a lift, ramps, or a pit, and it's essential to have a lift or jack to support the weight of the battery. Everything else is basic hand tools. It is not essential to use any proprietary tools or software that isn't onboard the car or battery. Requiring anything like that is incidental, and a regulation could forbid it in the name of right to repair, reducing waste, or maintaining a healthy used car market.
Almondsetat 7mo ago
Says who? Not all devices can have the same level of repairability by laypeople. What if I complained that todays' CPUs are too miniaturized and that in my time I could swap the individual vacuum tubes in case something went wrong?
- bobsmooth 7mo ago
  >Says who? The EU, just now.
  - Almondsetat 7mo ago
    So the EU is the objective truth of the universe, I guess
- skywhopper 7mo ago
  No, not everything can be repairable or replaceable, but batteries can and should be.
- ygjb 7mo ago
  If CPU failure was a leading cause of device obsolescence, your argument would make sense. Next, the EU or other regulators should explicitly regulate software mechanisms that prevent owners of a device from installing an alternate OS, enabling open source or aftermarket OS developers to support devices that mainstream vendors no longer want to support.

People shouldn't have to go to a special store or buy special tools requiring special skills to change a battery.

throwaway27448 7mo ago

I'd rather my phone be waterproof than have a battery I can replace myself

bombcar 7mo ago
It's likely impossible to legislate but it would be nice to say "each generation has to have one user-replaceable battery". Everyone who doesn't care (the 99%) can buy the iPhone 19x, and the people who want replaceable batteries can get the iPhone B.
- konschubert 7mo ago
  Then the 99% have to pay extra to subsidise the compliance phone for the 1%...
OutOfHere 7mo ago
Why do you imply that the phone could no longer be waterproof? Granted, it would take a bit of extra engineering to make it comparably waterproof. There is no reasonable implication that water needs to leak into the internals of the device where it makes contact with the battery.
orbital-decay 7mo ago
Those are not mutually exclusive at all, and there were waterproof phones with replaceable batteries (without even needing a screwdriver). This is mostly an excuse.
- throwaway27448 7mo ago
  I am not sure I believe this, but I'm sure there are phones that attempted it.
  - Aachen 7mo ago
    Then read upthread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47835184 I just don't see why we can't have nice things until proven otherwise (especially considering there is already evidence that this works), rather than have glued-shut devices until proven otherwise (by whom then? Apparently IP and practical experiences aren't enough for you)
    - syncsynchalt 7mo ago
      Samsung only rated the S5 Active as water resistant, and only IP67. We're talking about IP68, where you can take a new phone with you on a long swim.
      - Aachen 7mo ago
        I clicked the "parent comment" link all the way to the submission, and opened the submission as well. Nothing mentions IP68. Which "we" is this goalpost coming from?
        throwaway27448 6mo ago
        I had an s5. It was neither waterproof nor even water resistant—the enclosure got too banged up to ensure seals stay sealed.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
cowl 7mo ago
you can have both. the waterproof was just an excuse to make you either change the phone or go to a specialised center to change the battery, something that is so incovinient/expensive that people just obsolete their phone instead.
- wa2flq 7mo ago
  I trust that most batteries from iPhones are currently recycled through proper means either by Apple or third party firms. I don't know how most people will dispose of user replacement batteries, but I suspect the recycle rates will be lower. If you want to ensure higher rates you also need to do something they do in the USA for car lead acid batteries. Charge a deposit fee on the new battery that is returned only when the battery is turned into a valid recycling entity.
tokyobreakfast 7mo ago
How is it that I owned a fully-submersible phone—with user replaceable battery—over 15 years ago? You've bought into and are now parroting Apple & Samsung marketing BS. P.S. it had a headphone jack too. Gaskets over the ports. The headphone jack was the first victim of "but muh waterproof" despite all the other holes and cutouts.
q3k 7mo ago
We have the technology to have both - it's called a gasket.
gambiting 7mo ago
Plenty of phones that were waterproof and had replacable batteries already. This isn't new or even particularily hard to do. For a simplest example - somehow my watch is waterproof to 200M down and replacing the battery just takes a tiny screwdriver. Gaskets are not particualarly hard to work with.

brk 7mo ago

In a perfect world, sure. But people also want phones these days that are physically durable, have some degree of waterproofing/water resistance, maximum battery life, etc. Many of the demands and expectations of a modern phone aren't easily compatible with a replaceable battery design that can withstand the incompetence of the average end user.

lolftw 7mo ago
A GoPro fits all of those requirements and has easily replaceable batteries. Now, I understand that the shape and sizes are different. But I wouldn't mind some extra mm of thickness (I already get a pretty big camera bump anyway) if that means I can replace a battery faster.
- dmitrygr 7mo ago
  YOU would not mind, many others would.
  - spaqin 6mo ago
    We don't have a choice in the first place, minding or not. People who would mind missing a 3.5mm jack or replaceable battery have no say anyway, as none of the flagship devices on the market have either.
    - solenoid0937 6mo ago
      Have you ever wondered why none of the flagship devices have one? If the demand existed the devices would as well.
      - dvdkon 6mo ago
        That only holds if you believe the market has a high level of efficiency. Maybe if we wait long enough, the distribution of devices being manufactured will match consumer preferences, but I don't believe that to be the case today. The iPhone Mini sold ~millions of units. That may not be enough for Apple, but it's certainly enough to make a profit, yet nobody's building small phones now.

nonethewiser 7mo ago

Engage with the content of his comment instead of resorting to ad hominem. He's right - the market wants embedded batteries, although perhaps not directly. Embedded batteries have improved price, battery capacity, water proofing, size, and strength. If the consumer really wanted a removable battery and all that that entails then there would be more phones that offered that. The reality is people misjudge what all that entails. By all means, I would love to just make the iPhone battery directly replaceable without any compromises but that's not reality.

OutOfHere 7mo ago
I originally did engage with the comment. Water-resistance absolutely still is physically possible if the replacement battery is waterproof. Water can over time be corrosive at the contacts, but that's a risk for the user. It does not in any way imply that water will enter the internals of the device from the point of contact with the battery. This will require a bit of engineering at the contact to ensure that water doesn't enter the device. As for the size argument, adding 2 mm of thickness is less important than providing five years of extra life.
- addaon 7mo ago
  Wait, are you proposing sealing the phone and sealing the battery separately, but not sealing the contacts between them? That’s… super sketchy for salt water immersion. Unless you add fuses and a BMS and safety mechanisms into the “battery”. In which case wouldn’t customers want to be able to replace the actual battery within the now-a-battery-plus-computer phone accessory once it wears down?
Aachen 7mo ago
"instead of resorting to ad hominem" Was this edited out or which part do you mean?
- nonethewiser 7mo ago
  calling him a shill for having a different opinion. just an attack on the person. based on nothing and distracts from the substance of his comment.

avalys 7mo ago

How do you feel about the batteries in electric vehicles? What about wearable devices like a smartwatch, headphones, smart glasses? Should all these be consumer-replaceable without tools, regardless of the effect on the other things people value in these devices (waterproofing, size and weight, battery life, etc.)? FYI I do not work for anything close to the consumer tech industry.

ramon156 7mo ago
> without tools With commercially available tools, yes. The argument is that, given the skill, you could pull it off. Then again, maybe cars are a different category. I really don't have enough skilll to add to this discussion
- linhns 7mo ago
  In other words: IKEA-esque. Should be the goal of any so-called modular systems.
- konschubert 7mo ago
  > The argument is that, given the skill, you could pull it off. Obviously true for any iPhone battery.
  - gf000 7mo ago
    [dead]
orbital-decay 7mo ago
For EVs you need at least a hoist/lifter/crane/other power tool to replace a battery. But sure, there's no actual engineering reason they can't be replaced by the user. Same for the smartwatch - you can replace a battery in most ordinary wristwatches that use them, why not the smart ones? IEMs are usually too small and that's where the engineering limitations might matter. Headphones, no problem.
Zak 7mo ago
In software architecture, we talk about essential complexity and incidental complexity. Essential complexity is inherent to the problem being solved; it can't be eliminated through better tools, process, or design. Incidental complexity is anything added by poor choices or flawed tools. Every line in a "hello world" program that isn't something pretty close to `print("hello world")` is incidental complexity. To change the battery in electric vehicles that follow typical present-day design patterns, it's essential to have a way to get some clearance under the vehicles like a lift, ramps, or a pit, and it's essential to have a lift or jack to support the weight of the battery. Everything else is basic hand tools. It is not essential to use any proprietary tools or software that isn't onboard the car or battery. Requiring anything like that is incidental, and a regulation could forbid it in the name of right to repair, reducing waste, or maintaining a healthy used car market.

Almondsetat 7mo ago

Says who? Not all devices can have the same level of repairability by laypeople. What if I complained that todays' CPUs are too miniaturized and that in my time I could swap the individual vacuum tubes in case something went wrong?

bobsmooth 7mo ago
>Says who? The EU, just now.
- Almondsetat 7mo ago
  So the EU is the objective truth of the universe, I guess
skywhopper 7mo ago
No, not everything can be repairable or replaceable, but batteries can and should be.
ygjb 7mo ago
If CPU failure was a leading cause of device obsolescence, your argument would make sense. Next, the EU or other regulators should explicitly regulate software mechanisms that prevent owners of a device from installing an alternate OS, enabling open source or aftermarket OS developers to support devices that mainstream vendors no longer want to support.