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Dad brains: How fatherhood rewires the male mind
- dyauspitr 6mo ago[flagged]
- colechristensen 6mo ago[flagged]
- PandaRider 6mo agoI wouldn't say it's baseless... Instead, I would say it's flawed base making very sweeping statements that make it sound like good science [1]. Moreover, there exist fathers who are non-committal (e.g. cheat) and thus, disproving this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Blaffer_Hrdy#Mothers_and_Others:_The_evolutionary_origins_of_mutual_understanding:~:text=Again%20Hrdy%20sweeps%20across%20millennia%2C%20and%20across%20species%2C%20from%20the%20earliest%20vertebrates%20to%20primates%2C%20making%20a%20case%20for%20the%20importance%20of%20male%20parents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Blaffer_Hrdy#Mothers_and...
- dang 6mo ago"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." "Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- roody15 6mo agoAs a father of 3 daughters now approaching 50 with my oldest now 24 … I will say that I believe some of this is true. Perhaps it is just the life altering effect of raising children or maybe is biological as well. You can definitely pickup on whether another male is a father or not.
- binkHN 6mo agoSome of that is because the other male is whining about something that's really bothering him, but, as a parent, things tend not to affect you as much unless it's directly related to your kid.
- farfatched 6mo ago> Perhaps it is just the life altering effect of raising children or maybe is biological as well. If not biological, where else would this effect manifest? Arguably it could be things like "become parent -> become poor -> become stressed". But suppose we say they're rich, and so they don't get stressed via that path. So maybe we can't say that parenting causes stress. (Okay, it absolutely does but bare with me.) Suppose they're really rich, and they pay for night nannies, then suddenly you're a parent and not even tired. So now we can't say parenting causes tiredness. Perhaps there are some things that "intrinsically" switch on in the father's brain, detached from the rest of the world? If so, are we believe that a one-night stand, that leads to a baby, unbeknownst to the father, results in biological changes 9 months later? My point is, the effects are all predictably biological adaptation in response to the environment, in the same way that if I go to the gym, I will become fitter. The article presents it as unexpected or mystical. What else are they expecting happens with big life changes? (Sorry if it sounds like I'm grouchy, I am tired and my child is not napping when he should be.)
- dlenski 6mo ago> You can definitely pickup on whether another male is a father or not. Hah, yep. There's a quality of patience and looking out for small children that nearly 100% of other dads I meet have, but probably only ~30% of men without kids. And maybe even less than that, since the ones who are willing to hang out with me in my fatherly state are a self-selecting bunch.
- JKCalhoun 6mo agoHa ha, I never thought babies were "cute" until I had one of my own. Now I can't stop to smile, wave when a baby is pushed by in a stroller (to the embarrassment of my wife for some reason).
- Lucent 6mo agoMom brain is also a thing. Large scale, consistent, structural changes in the postpartum brain that is uncorrelated with PPD. https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhab463 https://doi.org/10.1093/cercor/bhab463
- general1465 6mo ago[flagged]
- nickburns 6mo agoBy the time Gettler looked into this field, it was already an established fact that fathers had lower testosterone that [sic] men without kids. I'm sure this typo will be promptly corrected. But it does offer some sense into how thoroughly this article was proofread prior to publication.
- yen223 6mo agoPositive sign that this article wasn't AI
- nickburns 6mo agoLol, I thought the same.
- brigandish 6mo agoI knew a sub-editor. According to them, they were not to use a spellchecker because it would lead to them being sloppy when checking for mistakes. I think about that every time I see a typo, and about that study showing that journalists aren’t the brightest[1]. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/journalists-brains-function-at-a-lower-level-than-average-2017-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/journalists-brains-function-...
- sho_hn 6mo ago[flagged]
- wj 6mo agoI swear my hearing got more sensitive with kids. Also, some commercials hit differently.
- bananaboy 6mo agoI can’t read news stories about something terrible that happened to a child since having kids.
- Rodeoclash 6mo agoI couldn't watch Black Mirror after having my son.
- is_true 6mo agoNeither do I and I don't have kids
- farfatched 6mo agoI believe OP is discussing what changed upon having kids, not "things that you can only do if you are a parent".
- smackay 6mo agoSame here. I can still hear them breathing quite clearly in the next room, even with the bedroom doors partially closed. My hearing for noises further away got more sensitive, but those nearby less so. I put this down to an ancestral ability to listen for sabre-tooth tigers trying to sneak up in the grass.
- nailer 6mo ago> that men have all the necessary biological wiring to be "every bit as protective and nurturing as the most committed mother This seems like an overstatement - man can't give birth to babies (which involves transfer of the mothers biome to the baby) or feed babies (which typically involves lactation).
- ikr678 6mo agoIs it correlation or causation? Testosterone also drops when you dont get enough sleep, which is a universal lifestyle change for parents.
- nailer 6mo ago[flagged]
- acdha 6mo agoNeither of the quibbles you drew are what people usually class as protective or nurturing behavior? At least in the English-speaking world that’s later in a child’s life than birth. I’d also note that the concern about feeding babies has been obsolete since the invention of formula.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- nailer 6mo ago[dead]
- goku12 6mo agoYou're conflating nurturing and protection with birthing and nursing. I also don't understand why this opinion is so controversial. Humans, including men are one of the rare species that nurture and protect babies (consciously and beyond symbiosis) of other individuals or even species, including wild animals. Why is it so surprising then that men are good at nurturing their own babies?
- ineedaj0b 6mo agoyou have to control for the stress, lack of sleep etc. do partners who purchase a puppy also have lower T in the following months if they are primary caregivers? I wouldn’t trust these sourced studies - smells exactly like replication crisis findings. Malcom Gladwell meticulously sourced the researchers when he was writing his books. He got everything right. It was all the researchers who lied.
- andy99 6mo agoSaw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed and ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged. First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive. And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation. The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
- ViscountPenguin 6mo agoThere's some interesting research on the effect of T in mice which has been challenging traditional assumptions of its role in males: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_animal_study_15-08-2022/story.html https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_anim... It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
- tehjoker 6mo agoA lot of ancient cultures were collectivist if small. In some cases, matriarchal, in some cases, sex was "free" because the village owned the kids, and so establishing paternity was not as important because the burden was shared.
- cineticdaffodil 6mo agoHow do youvarrive at matruarchal while most male mammals display hormonal harem bloat? If nature blows you up into body building brute once you have a family, does that not indicate a clear pyramid of force and a violence monopoly? PS: prediction power and testable.. could be science where it not for utopist airsuperiority
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- varun_chopra 6mo agoI find it very odd that the rest of the comments are sort of... not agreeing with the findings in the article. I became a father recently (:D) and it's been an emotional rollercoaster for me. I had been frantically Googling my "symptoms" and asking around what's wrong with me, because it seems I've been quite sensitive since the birth of my baby. One way to explain this is the Gordon Ramsay meme (https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/211147137/Oh-dear-dear-gorgeus https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/211147137/Oh-dear-dear-gorg..., LHS = my reaction to my baby, RHS = my reaction to other kids before my baby was born). I think the article is spot on — the more time you spend with your baby and care for them, the more oxytocin you get and the more your testosterone drops (I cried when my baby first spoke — cooed, really — to me, for example, and that's just one instance). Edit: I want to take this opportunity to say — fuck companies that don't give paternity leave. This is fucking hard to do alone, so be nice to your employees and offer paternity benefits. I'm in India, where paternity leave isn't required, so I was told to fuck off when I asked for time off.
- voxl 6mo agothe problem with most research about humans is that the variance is usually massive. The study could be true on average and that could still leave millions of men who the study doesn't end up applying to.
- hkpack 6mo agoFamous story about the plane cockpit for average pilot ended up being bad for absolutely everyone comes to mind. Probably you cannot average humans.
- porknubbins 6mo agoMaybe its being older already but I don’t feel super changed having a baby like people told me I would. I don’t do work or hobbies or socializing any differently. Everything else in my life didnt suddenly seem unimportant. The one big difference is up to now I though crying babies were annoying and subconsiously somehow blamed parents. Now I see how foolish that was as babies are born knowing nothing and are just adorable little people trying their best to get their needs met and handle emotions.
- syntaxing 6mo ago> And the men that had spent longer looking after babies showed the largest drops in testosterone. Those that shared a bed with their infants also had lower levels. Dad here. Maybe…it’s the lack of sleep? Involved fathers tend to have less sleep.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- bitshiftfaced 6mo agoParents also tend to gain weight, and higher BMI is associated with a decline in T. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3809034/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3809034/
- kyleee 6mo agoDo BBC have low T?
- benhurmarcel 6mo agoYes being a parent would tend to correlate to a drop in physical activities and sports
- verteu 6mo agoSeveral of the studies described changes in hormones before the child was born.
- gedy 6mo agoIt makes sense as a layman - less testosterone means less fighting, aggressive behavior, chasing other mates, etc. Ensures more success for your offspring.
- necovek 6mo agoWorse ability to fend off competition too?
- JumpinJack_Cash 6mo ago[flagged]
- ourmandave 6mo agoWe also naturally learn phrases, like "uh, don't tell mom."
- philipswood 6mo agoVegas protocol is hardwired!? :exploding_head: I see it now. Yes.
- senectus1 6mo ago51yr old father of two (18yr M 16yr F)... I know I'm a biased pool to draw from but my lived experience was noticing how my brain changed when my wife started showing she was pregnant. I swear I actually noticed it. At times i felt the changes.. it felt similar to the buzz you get when playing a fast paced shootem up game. it wasn't quite a buzz though.
- jvanderbot 6mo agoNot to the direct thesis of the article, but I want to share one absolute 180 I had after having kids. Before kiddos I took the apriori belief that it would kinda suck. The belief was unassailable because I thought, evolutionarily, if it was fun to have kids it wouldn't be fun to make them - otherwise we'd endure unfun "making" because we know the having would be fun. I know now how stupid that was on many levels. Just specifically that belief has changed for me: its fun to make kids because having them is self reinforcing and wonderful and intrinsically motivational. Perhaps I'm a data point.
- dividefuel 6mo agoAh I wish I could agree. I've found having kids to be a major challenge. Maybe I just need to wait for them to get a little older.
- andreidbr 6mo agoI also agree. "Making kids" is fun, duh. Raising kids, however, can be very challenging in all sorts of ways. Physically, mentally, socially, etc. I became aware of just how much sleep deprivation affected me and for the sake of myself & my family I just sacrificed everything else to ensure I got good quality sleep. Fortunately, I was helped in this and I made damn sure everyone was supported when I was awake.
- marcuschong 6mo agoMe too. I'm an active father, love my daughter and don't regret our choice. But damn I would never opt to go through this again and can't wait until she's a little older. I see parents having orderly lunches in restaurants with their older children and it just seems like the most beautiful and civilized thing in the world. The whole experience is too much noise and not enough signal to me.
- strix_varius 6mo agoThis is a trend, perhaps with most parents, but definitely with fathers and especially with the sorts of hyper focused, contemplative, creativity/engineering-minded fathers who might hang out on hacker news. At least in my anecdotal experience. What I've found is that as my 2.5 year old gets older it gets easier and easier for me. The ratio of cool shared experiences to frustrating noise gets higher and higher. We've just had another child, still very much a newborn, and now that I have something for contrast I see how much harder that was. To some degree the frustration and grind of very young kids had faded into the background of my memory. The older kid helps though as a concrete vision of what we're moving towards.
- periodjet 6mo agoThe modern female loves the “dad” archetype because it’s non-threatening across many domains. See: all modern entertainment media (which is produced by females and the feminine-minded). Expect it to increase in representation and popularity (which can already be observed by the sharp-witted). My identity: trans woman (to ameliorate the stung feelings of identitarians, relativists, and/or feminists reading this).
- wat10000 6mo agoThis sounds like a criticism, but non-threatening seems like a really good thing.
- periodjet 6mo agoVery interested to hear why you believe “non-threatening” to be a desirable property of the average male. Do you also believe this to be a desirable property for the average female? i.e. nobody threatens anyone else?
- incr_me 6mo agoWhy are you scare-quoting your own words and supposing it is only your interlocutor who is treating them abstractly? Just tell us what you mean. What do you mean by non-threatening? What domains?
- wat10000 6mo agoYour phrasing is very strange. Nobody threatens anyone else does indeed sound ideal.
- ozozozd 6mo ago[dead]
- farfatched 6mo ago"X rewires the brain" posts feel a bit like "water is wet". I expect many major and even minor life events rewire the brain. Isn't "rewiring" the process of learning and changing thoughts/behaviours? In which model of behaviour is it surprising that reorienting your life towards dependence won't have measurable effects on the brain? The research is no doubt useful to some, but the way it's presented in news as some sort of mystical phenomenon feels very middle ages.
- brigandish 6mo ago> "It's an urgent societal priority that we shore up dads' opportunity to build those connections," says Saxbe. I note that changing the presumption in family law that the mother is the better care giver, thus making it incredibly hard for fathers to win custody of their children, is not listed as one of them. Weird that.
- narvidas 6mo agoJust a personal anecdotal datapoint, but relevant and possibly interesting nonetheless. I work full time and even by modern standards I'm what most would call a heavily-involved father. I have an 18month old. After my daughter was born, due to the amount of stress and lack of sleep I very soon realised I had to return to doing regular resistance training, clean diet and cut other things like drinking alcohol. In order to keep my energy levels sufficiently high and mental health in check. I now feel much better than I did in years. Albeit still heavily sleep deprived most days. Recent bloodwork shows that my T levels nearly doubled (compared to before becoming a dad) from average to slightly off-the-charts high. Take it as you will, but for me fatherhood forced me to reevaluate how I spend my time very carefully, forcing me to take care of myself more so I can take care of my family sufficiently too.
- rrgok 6mo agoIf you need external input to improve yourself then I'm wondering if you are ready to be a father. I might sound rude, but it is not my intention. I don't know how else to put it. It is still better than people who never learn this either way.
- kyleee 6mo agoAwful comment either way. That’s one you keep to yourself
- narvidas 6mo agoThat's so interesting, isn't it? What this person could've take away here was that: - Contrary to what the article states, parenthood in males can sometimes even boost testosterone through external factors. - Or that resitance training and diet is a great way to deal with daily stress. What instead they took away was that improving oneself for family somehow makes you unfit to be a parent. A rather dark interpretation. Sincerely hope they are OK and well.
- JKCalhoun 6mo agoWhen we only have ourselves to care about, I think it is easier to be irresponsible about our health. It is only ourselves who suffer the consequences. That kind of "solitary-ism" or ego can swing either way: you care so much for yourself that you focus on your health, or instead focus on enjoying those things life has to offer like food and wine (often at the expense of health). Unlike my and many other's parents, I waited until I was older, more mature and planned beginning a family. Nonetheless, I suspect none of us were truly prepared for what that would mean—especially in the life-changing ways it manifest in. So if some of us were not focused on our own health before going into fatherhood, I am not surprised. No doubt there are others that had checked off that box but started a family with much slimmer finances than I thought necessary to begin fatherhood. In the end I suspect it is easy to Monday-morning quarterback my introduction to fatherhood and determine where I could have done better. At the same time, and I am considering my own upbringing, I could have done much, much worse. And yet most of us make it to adulthood with more or less healthy minds and bodies.
- ozozozd 6mo agoThe lower T claim sounds like a pretty obvious adaptation to me. High T = high risk appetite. Low T = low risk appetite. If you have kids, your risk appetite should be relatively lower. Otherwise your offspring may have to grow up without you around. Although I agree that the lack of sleep would have a huge impact as well.
- tsoukase 6mo agoStarting from marriage, men are changing to the less manly direction. But there is a confounding factor: higher testosterone level or sensitivity causes specific distance from family care, so it stays high longer. Personally, I experienced a 10% drop in my 1rep max in squat after each of my two children.
- worthless-trash 6mo agoYah. But did you skip leg day to take your lady to the hospital ?
- tsoukase 6mo agoAt those two days I skipped it, but the rest I trained at the squat rack in my basement after every night feed of them.
- worthless-trash 6mo agoRespect.
- JKCalhoun 6mo ago"Starting from marriage, men are changing to the less manly direction." Ha ha, I started perhaps already farther on the Femine spectrum such that marriage pulled me more toward the "Masculine" end—feeling now obliged to "win the bread" for another. (When it was just me I could indulge all my selfish, artistic whims…)
- tsoukase 6mo agoThat behaviour was probably more due to psycho-social reasons that biological which regressed, but sure the net effect pushed you more to the one pole.
- anonyfox 6mo agoone of the few super distinct differences not only in males but in parents: nearly all of them develop walking without noises and at some point do it baseline. super funny when you're with non-parents again and realize for the first time just how carelessly _loud_ they move around, whereas parents move near silent without even thinking. Guess thats the earned scars after trying to put a toddler asleep and for the sake of god not awake it again by stupid noise right away.
- e40 6mo agoOr how carelessly loud teenagers are! Oy!
- doubled112 6mo agoLearning to move quietly is definitely a skill. A baby just forces you to realize how needlessly loud you are. When I was a kid my grandfather lived downstairs. He had Alzheimer's, slept at some pretty weird times, and could get pretty mad pretty fast. I sneak up on everybody to this day.
- tasuki 6mo ago> The more involved a father is with their baby's care, the deeper this transition becomes My partner died when my child was a year and a half, so I'm more involved than basically any father, to the point that my experience is much closer to a mother's, a role in which my only solace is seeing myself struggle slightly less than many mothers. It's reassuring to read an article confirming I'm screwed.
- JKCalhoun 6mo agoAnd yet… Even (especially) in hindsight it will have been the greatest thing you did with your life. At least this has become clear to me (now 27 years a father).
- silexia 6mo agoI have done a lot on life... Bootstrapped a mid eight figures business debt free, climbed Mt Rainier, tons of friends, etc. Nothing in life remotely matters to me as much as my kids. I would trade everything above for any one of my kids.
- tasuki 6mo agoFor sure the hardest! Kid is five now and life is ok again...
- splitbrainhack 6mo agois this science or just subjective feelings?
- silexia 6mo agoI think this is very true. I slept in the same bed with the babies and I have seen huge changes in my behavior and even in my body shape over the last seven years with five children.
- thefz 6mo agoA list of things that no one would want on themselves