7 ms·

I have a feeling the real reason is them trying to avoid someone using AI to copyright-wash their product, they're just using security as the excuse.

by DrammBA 6mo ago

OsrsNeedsf2P 6mo ago
An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings with a Chrome MCP server pointed to their website to figure out all the nooks and crannys. The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate. The real answer is they are likely having a hard time converting people to paid plans
- notnullorvoid 6mo ago
  > The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate. That's a very weak moat unless you have something else like the friction of network dependence similar to a social network.
  - philipov 6mo ago
    Sunk cost is sufficient friction for most people even without network dependence.
    - shimman 6mo ago
      For a meeting scheduler site? I feel like you're overestimating the capabilities of something that is akin to college graduate project. This company does not seem healthy at all: https://getlatka.com/companies/calcom https://getlatka.com/companies/calcom I agree with the other poster that mention this is likely a publicity stunt but all it's really showing is that VC is still incredibly stupid with their money. All the more reason to seize it from them then properly fund useful software and not subsidize vanity projects for stanford grads.
      - cootsnuck 6mo ago
        About the friction, not the capabilities...I haven't switched off my biz calendar/appointment provider I'm paying for even though I've kinda outgrown it. I wouldn't under estimate switching friction.
        hrimfaxi 6mo ago
        How much does your friction avoidance cost, if you don't mind my asking?
  - jmcgough 6mo ago
    idk my mom still pays for her aol email account
    - rhubarbtree 6mo ago
      Best business insight posted on HN. This. Your code is not your business.
    - notnullorvoid 6mo ago
      Email is actually a excellent example of something with network dependence. Changing email providers requires that you change your email address too (unless you own and use your own domain). An address change causes friction from having to update the network of contacts and services which used your old email address.
  - eloisant 6mo ago
    Exactly, that's why most Saas companies are in a very tough position. You have to bring value that goes beyond the source code and hosting, otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you.
    - OccamsMirror 6mo ago
      > otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you. How many things do you want to be responsible for? How many vibe coded projects do you want to maintain? I think this line of reasoning is overblown. Just because you can doesn't mean a significant number of people will. I think the 3D printer comparison is apt.
      - eloisant 6mo ago
        Individuals and SMB might stick with Saas but those don't pay much. Enterprise customers have the means to develop in house, those are the customers that will leave. And those are the whales of the Saas business.
        OccamsMirror 6mo ago
        They already have the means to develop in house. Why aren't they?
        eloisant 6mo ago
        This is much less work (= cheaper) to develop in-house with AI now than before.
        OccamsMirror 6mo ago
        I don't think it's much cheaper. Writing some code to do some CRUD has always been easy. Getting to a proof of concept is definitely quicker. But creating something that can be relied upon in production? That's as difficult and time consuming as it has ever been.
- j45 6mo ago
  Coding something vs maintaining it can be quite different things.
  - TeMPOraL 6mo ago
    For many use cases, maintenance doesn't matter. At this point, using LLMs to one-shot a tool/service for a single use or time-limited use case is becoming more appealing than signing up with some vendor, even for free.
    - j45 6mo ago
      If it's got the lifespan of a short lived spreadsheet, maybe. People can one shot to the moon, if the input and improvements can't be sustained, it goes sideways. Still an exciting space.
- indianmouse 6mo ago
  May be trying creating one and see how much effort and time is required to clone such a functionality to a proper working state! Something for personal use can be created in about 5-10 days, but even then the skill that is required and the amount of tokens to burn, hosting and security etc, will easily kill. This is exactly the thought process of many, but it will surely kill many opensource contributors. I've stopped committing anything to any open source repos as a personal choice. I do not want to train a LLM which will eventually create more slop and headaches since for me, time is the only important factor which holds the maximum value! Nothing else!
- opem 6mo ago
  For real, one of the reasons I use cal.com is because it's open source. Time to migrate.
  - lrvick 6mo ago
    Same. I expect in a misguided effort to save customers, they are going to lose a lot more. My two companies will be canceling over this.
- il-b 6mo ago
  > An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings Do it then
lisperforlife 6mo ago
Exactly this! Classic open source bait and switch.
bit1993 6mo ago
Called this 9 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44559840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44559840 "AI slop is rapidly destroying the WWW, most of the content is becoming more and more low-quality and difficult to tell if its true or hallucinated. Pre-AI web content is now more like the golden-standard in terms of correctness, browsing the Internet Archive is much better. This will only cause content to go behind pay-walls, allot of open-source projects will be closed source not only because of the increased work maintainers have to do to not only review but also audit patches for potential AI hallucinations but also because their work is being used to train LLMs and re-licensed to proprietary."
- teleforce 6mo ago
  Typical FUD. Replace AI with "open source and Linux", and "open source" with "Windows" in the statements. That's what Microsoft's PR team would have said about open source and Linux about 20 years back in the 2000s. After the unsuccessful FUD era, now Microsoft is running away with Linux by running its Windows alongside via WSL to combat MacOS Unix-like popularity, and due to Linux and open source dominance in the cloud OS demographic.
  - TeMPOraL 6mo ago
    Even worse, in that Microsoft's FUD was mostly right. The joke about Open Source being communism played out straight - FOSS pretty much destroyed the ability to make money on software products, accelerating transition to SaaS models where you can carefully seek rent from the shelter of your secure company servers (later, cloud), and that is in large part responsible for modern surveillance economy - as it turns out, some SaaS segments decayed to "free with ads", where - much like with OSS and locally-run software - you cannot compete on price with free.
theahura 6mo ago
At risk of self promotion, I think more people should adopt something like the Ship of Theseus license (https://github.com/tilework-tech/nori-skillsets/pull/465/changes https://github.com/tilework-tech/nori-skillsets/pull/465/cha...). It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead
- devmor 6mo ago
  I cannot imagine that license addendum is legally enforceable (let alone provable) in most jurisdictions on earth but it is interesting.
  - kaashif 6mo ago
    As long as it doesn't cost me anything, I'd like to see it play out in court and know for sure. But that is very unlikely even if everyone adopted it, which they won't.
    - eloisant 6mo ago
      I mean you might as well write "any competing project will be considered infringement". It doesn't cost you anything either.
- hrimfaxi 6mo ago
  > It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead Are you willing to bear the burden of litigation?
- klempner 6mo ago
  I am incredibly skeptical that license is legally meaningful. (but obligatory IANAL.) Generally speaking it is very very difficult to have a license redefine legal terms. Either this theseus copy is legally a derivative work or it isn't, and text of a license is going to do at most very very little to change that.
- 6mo ago

I have a feeling the real reason is them trying to avoid someone using AI to copyright-wash their product, they're just using security as the excuse.

by DrammBA 6mo ago

I have a feeling the real reason is them trying to avoid someone using AI to copyright-wash their product, they're just using security as the excuse.

OsrsNeedsf2P 6mo ago

An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings with a Chrome MCP server pointed to their website to figure out all the nooks and crannys. The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate. The real answer is they are likely having a hard time converting people to paid plans

notnullorvoid 6mo ago
> The moat of Cal.com is not the code, it's the users who don't want to migrate. That's a very weak moat unless you have something else like the friction of network dependence similar to a social network.
- philipov 6mo ago
  Sunk cost is sufficient friction for most people even without network dependence.
  - shimman 6mo ago
    For a meeting scheduler site? I feel like you're overestimating the capabilities of something that is akin to college graduate project. This company does not seem healthy at all: https://getlatka.com/companies/calcom https://getlatka.com/companies/calcom I agree with the other poster that mention this is likely a publicity stunt but all it's really showing is that VC is still incredibly stupid with their money. All the more reason to seize it from them then properly fund useful software and not subsidize vanity projects for stanford grads.
    - cootsnuck 6mo ago
      About the friction, not the capabilities...I haven't switched off my biz calendar/appointment provider I'm paying for even though I've kinda outgrown it. I wouldn't under estimate switching friction.
      - hrimfaxi 6mo ago
        How much does your friction avoidance cost, if you don't mind my asking?
- jmcgough 6mo ago
  idk my mom still pays for her aol email account
  - rhubarbtree 6mo ago
    Best business insight posted on HN. This. Your code is not your business.
  - notnullorvoid 6mo ago
    Email is actually a excellent example of something with network dependence. Changing email providers requires that you change your email address too (unless you own and use your own domain). An address change causes friction from having to update the network of contacts and services which used your old email address.
- eloisant 6mo ago
  Exactly, that's why most Saas companies are in a very tough position. You have to bring value that goes beyond the source code and hosting, otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you.
  - OccamsMirror 6mo ago
    > otherwise your clients are going to vibe code a custom solution instead of paying you. How many things do you want to be responsible for? How many vibe coded projects do you want to maintain? I think this line of reasoning is overblown. Just because you can doesn't mean a significant number of people will. I think the 3D printer comparison is apt.
    - eloisant 6mo ago
      Individuals and SMB might stick with Saas but those don't pay much. Enterprise customers have the means to develop in house, those are the customers that will leave. And those are the whales of the Saas business.
      - OccamsMirror 6mo ago
        They already have the means to develop in house. Why aren't they?
        eloisant 6mo ago
        This is much less work (= cheaper) to develop in-house with AI now than before.
        OccamsMirror 6mo ago
        I don't think it's much cheaper. Writing some code to do some CRUD has always been easy. Getting to a proof of concept is definitely quicker. But creating something that can be relied upon in production? That's as difficult and time consuming as it has ever been.
j45 6mo ago
Coding something vs maintaining it can be quite different things.
- TeMPOraL 6mo ago
  For many use cases, maintenance doesn't matter. At this point, using LLMs to one-shot a tool/service for a single use or time-limited use case is becoming more appealing than signing up with some vendor, even for free.
  - j45 6mo ago
    If it's got the lifespan of a short lived spreadsheet, maybe. People can one shot to the moon, if the input and improvements can't be sustained, it goes sideways. Still an exciting space.
indianmouse 6mo ago
May be trying creating one and see how much effort and time is required to clone such a functionality to a proper working state! Something for personal use can be created in about 5-10 days, but even then the skill that is required and the amount of tokens to burn, hosting and security etc, will easily kill. This is exactly the thought process of many, but it will surely kill many opensource contributors. I've stopped committing anything to any open source repos as a personal choice. I do not want to train a LLM which will eventually create more slop and headaches since for me, time is the only important factor which holds the maximum value! Nothing else!
opem 6mo ago
For real, one of the reasons I use cal.com is because it's open source. Time to migrate.
- lrvick 6mo ago
  Same. I expect in a misguided effort to save customers, they are going to lose a lot more. My two companies will be canceling over this.
il-b 6mo ago
> An app like Cal.com can be vibe coded in a few evenings Do it then

lisperforlife 6mo ago

Exactly this! Classic open source bait and switch.

bit1993 6mo ago

Called this 9 months ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44559840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44559840 "AI slop is rapidly destroying the WWW, most of the content is becoming more and more low-quality and difficult to tell if its true or hallucinated. Pre-AI web content is now more like the golden-standard in terms of correctness, browsing the Internet Archive is much better. This will only cause content to go behind pay-walls, allot of open-source projects will be closed source not only because of the increased work maintainers have to do to not only review but also audit patches for potential AI hallucinations but also because their work is being used to train LLMs and re-licensed to proprietary."

teleforce 6mo ago
Typical FUD. Replace AI with "open source and Linux", and "open source" with "Windows" in the statements. That's what Microsoft's PR team would have said about open source and Linux about 20 years back in the 2000s. After the unsuccessful FUD era, now Microsoft is running away with Linux by running its Windows alongside via WSL to combat MacOS Unix-like popularity, and due to Linux and open source dominance in the cloud OS demographic.
- TeMPOraL 6mo ago
  Even worse, in that Microsoft's FUD was mostly right. The joke about Open Source being communism played out straight - FOSS pretty much destroyed the ability to make money on software products, accelerating transition to SaaS models where you can carefully seek rent from the shelter of your secure company servers (later, cloud), and that is in large part responsible for modern surveillance economy - as it turns out, some SaaS segments decayed to "free with ads", where - much like with OSS and locally-run software - you cannot compete on price with free.

theahura 6mo ago

At risk of self promotion, I think more people should adopt something like the Ship of Theseus license (https://github.com/tilework-tech/nori-skillsets/pull/465/changes https://github.com/tilework-tech/nori-skillsets/pull/465/cha...). It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead

devmor 6mo ago
I cannot imagine that license addendum is legally enforceable (let alone provable) in most jurisdictions on earth but it is interesting.
- kaashif 6mo ago
  As long as it doesn't cost me anything, I'd like to see it play out in court and know for sure. But that is very unlikely even if everyone adopted it, which they won't.
  - eloisant 6mo ago
    I mean you might as well write "any competing project will be considered infringement". It doesn't cost you anything either.
hrimfaxi 6mo ago
> It's not obvious if this will patch the clean room hole in licensing, but I'd rather see it play out in court than assume opensource is just fully dead Are you willing to bear the burden of litigation?
klempner 6mo ago
I am incredibly skeptical that license is legally meaningful. (but obligatory IANAL.) Generally speaking it is very very difficult to have a license redefine legal terms. Either this theseus copy is legally a derivative work or it isn't, and text of a license is going to do at most very very little to change that.
6mo ago