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FDA links raw cheese to outbreak; Makers "100% disagree," refuse recall
- aaron695 8mo ago[dead]
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- pingou 8mo ago"The FDA has highlighted studies finding that pasteurization does not negatively affect the nutritional value of milk. Still, advocates of raw milk continue to claim, without evidence, that raw dairy has benefits." Well, perhaps it has taste benefits?
- giraffe_lady 8mo agoThere's almost no discernible difference between unhomogenized pasteurized milk and raw milk, both tasted directly and in the final cheese. As a working chef* I had to be taught to detect the difference, and now that I'm not doing it regularly I doubt I even could. * at the time at a michelin star restaurant, not to brag but because the finesse of my palate is directly relevant and likely to be called into question.
- dhosek 8mo ago[flagged]
- stronglikedan 8mo ago[flagged]
- giantrobot 8mo agoDo yourself a giant favor and read up on what it takes to get a single Michelin star. It's not a fucking Yelp review.
- saalweachter 8mo ago"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article".
- Atotalnoob 8mo ago1 Michelin star is like _only_ in the top 0.1% of restaurants instead of the top 0.001%. It’s still impressive, difficult, and time consuming. Highly recommend you check out any starred restaurants nearby where you live. They tend to be expensive, but they are worth the high sticker price
- kakacik 8mo agoI don't think you caught the sarcasm of parent
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- catlikesshrimp 8mo agowe have a small dairy farm. We sell milk to a company which pausterizes milk soon. BUT we have in the past made cheese for illegal exporters of cheese, and they require it be made of unpausterized milk. Apparently, they can't get enough unpausterized cheese in their country, so they habe to smuggle it. They can't disclose neither the cheese origin nor its nature; the consumers do taste tje difference. Similarly, my father prefers the taste of unpausterized milk cuajada (non compact cheese) He says pausterized milk loses most of its flavor. For the record. I prefer pausterized milk; I also notice the difference.
- throwaway27448 8mo agoIt makes a little more sense for cheese as a cultured product.
- roryirvine 8mo agoIsn't most good cheese unpasteurised? Comte, Roquefort, Gruyere, Epoisses, Parmesan, even many (most?) small-producer Cheddars.
- giraffe_lady 8mo agoYeah sorry I was a little careless there. For the cheeses we were sourcing it didn't matter, and for most of the raw milk cheeses they are done that way out of tradition and because the process is reliably safe enough. For some unwashed aged cheeses it does truly seem to matter but those the production is so closely tied up with the local agriculture, aging in specific natural conditions etc it's really not a process to try to emulate in your cheddar at your dairy that averages an outbreak every 18 months like the one in the article.
- roryirvine 8mo agoOh, yeah, agreed. That dairy sounds like a death-trap!
- deeg 8mo agoI'm a big fan of cheese and have researched this a bit. The consensus seems to be if two cheeses were made with the exact same process except for using past/unpast then you might be able to tell a difference (especially for younger cheeses) but one isn't necessarily better than the other. Over the years cheese makers have learned how to get the best flavor out of the base milk. So a pasteurized brie will be just as good as an unpasteurized brie but made slightly different. I've tried doing taste comparisons between past/unpast but there's so much variation for even the exact same cheese that I've never been able to detect a meaningful difference.
- philipkglass 8mo agoA local small grocery chain started stocking raw milk (with many warnings) and I decided to risk consuming it to see for myself. I couldn't tell the difference between it and ordinary full fat milk. I wondered if it was a fraud (commercial milk falsely advertised as Local Forbidden Delicacy Milk), but maybe there's not much difference. Or maybe I am not a subtle taster. I also can't taste the superiority of an $80 bottle of wine when it's pitted against an $18 bottle.
- CrossVR 8mo agoYou're supposed to feel the superiority, not taste it.
- prpl 8mo agoI’ve had a few different specialty brands of milk and there can be a difference, but I think that has more to do with the cows (and their diet) than the process. Jersey cow milk is probably more different than raw milk than pasteurized is from raw milk.
- barrkel 8mo agoI can taste the difference between a $100 wine and $400 wine, but it's maybe 20% better, if it's possible to flatten extra layers of flavour into a linear scale. It's easier to appreciate for different levels of quality from the same producer. My example is drawn from Casanova di Neri Tenuta Nuova vs Cerretalto. They're basically the same style, the Cerretalto just has extra. Across different grapes and regions and it's like apples and oranges. Sometimes I want a savory Burgundy, sometimes I want a Coke. If you don't know what wine from a terroir tastes like, and hankering after that, don't spend extra on it. I'd generalize that to cheese. Can't beat a good aged Comte (a raw milk cheese), but it's not everyday cheese.
- orwin 8mo ago(I mean, not every day, but every 2-3 days... I'm more of a St nectaire guy myself)
- rkozik1989 8mo ago[flagged]
- carabiner 8mo agoThat would get in the way of Arstechnica's hyper liberal bias. I eat raw cheese because it tastes good. It's common in France, like in reblochon and Brie de meaux. There aren't mass deaths in France because of this.
- delecti 8mo agoBut is it better, or just more traditional? France is a country that cares a lot about food tradition.
- amarant 8mo agoIt is better. We have a decently strong cheese tradition in Sweden too, but French cheese is tastier. I don't even like the French, their culture is obnoxious, I'd take every chance to shit on the French. But you just can't argue with their cheese, it's that good. Some of their wines are ok too, but I mostly prefer Italian on that front.
- Hikikomori 8mo agoItalian cheeses similar to French types from the alp regions are very good as well. Beppe and his cheeses in Rome.
- Asmod4n 8mo agoThere is no taste difference, it’s just cheaper to produce since you can skip heating it for a few minutes.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- jckt 8mo agoThere aren’t mass deaths in the US either (no deaths reported per the article). But there are definitely cases of listeriosis due to raw cheese in France. A recent outbreak was in 2025 and led to 2 deaths. https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20250813-deadly-listeria-outbreak-in-france-tied-to-nationwide-cheese-recall https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20250813-deadly-listeria-outbre...
- dyauspitr 8mo agoI remember growing up, my dad’s family had cows and we would drink the milk raw. The main feature for me was how thick it was. Even the whole milk I buy at stores here is very thin.
- yCombLinks 8mo agoThat's mostly due to homogenization, a process that spreads the fat evenly through the milk and keeps it from resettling.
- saalweachter 8mo agoIt's also my understanding that whole milk isn't necessarily just "pasteurize and pass along"; it really means "3.25% fat". All the milk has its fat separated out and re-added at specific percents, and the 3.25% for whole milk is just what whoever standardized this thought about typical for whole milk. An individual cow might have a mix that's a little more or less. If you look around you can occasionally find higher fat milks; I've seen as high as 5% (without getting into half-and-half or heavy cream). You could probably just splash a little heavy cream in yourself if you aren't satisfied with the thickness of whole milk.
- jhawk28 8mo agoThere is no taste difference between raw and pasteurized milk. The taste comes from the container. If you have both in glass, there is no discernible difference. My father is a dairy farmer and bet his professor (many years ago) that he could taste the difference. The professor setup a blind taste test where he gave my father pasteurized and raw milk in glass cups. There was no difference. "Nutritional value" is a very ambiguous. It's only in what you measured. Raw milk advocates are going to value things like bacteria and if proteins were changed. Pasteurization by definition is going to kill the bacteria and change the protein structure. The main benefit for pasteurization is that it makes milk a commodity. You can have unsanitary farms with high bacteria counts that don't make people sick. This is both good and bad. Good because it means more milk available with less disease. Bad because our bodies are complex and some bacteria is healthy. My recommendation is that if someone wants to consume raw milk, they should have a personal relationship with the dairy.
- legitster 8mo agoI find this hard to believe because there is a massive difference in tastes just between two dairies. You can also get low-pasteurization milk from the same dairy and the taste difference is also remarkable.
- autoexec 8mo agoIf neither sample is your usual brand you can get two different flavors, but still not be able to tell which was pasteurized. You could try to guess that the one you liked best was raw and be wrong.
- jhawk28 8mo agoYes, different feed, cow breeds, etc are all going to influence taste. You also need to identify the path that the low-pasteurization milk goes through to see if it has anything that will adjust the taste. My father's professor was able to control the variables such that it was the same milk, no contaminates, etc.
- eudamoniac 8mo agoI used to dabble in raw milk and I can confirm the taste is the same, surprisingly.
- mrguyorama 8mo agoMost of what people like about "Raw milk" is that it is not homogenized. The cream has not been emulsified thoroughly, so the mouth feel can be different. You can sometimes find pasteurized milk that hasn't been homogenized in order to get the good mouth feel without drinking absurdly unsafe bacteria culture.
- UncleMeat 8mo agoRaw milk advocates claim is does shit like fix allergies and cure diseases.
- jmclnx 8mo agoI do not know if what the FDA that is true, but with RFKjr in charge you never know. With that said, I will always avoid raw milk or products from raw mike since there are known issues.
- nekusar 8mo agoNot sure how to compare raw milk cheese made in the USA, versus raw milk cheese in EU region. I wont drink raw milk cause there's all sorts of bad shit. But raw milk cheese? Seems safe.
- nemomarx 8mo agoI think you can usually just assume us food standards are worse - same reason I wouldn't order steak tartare here. It sounds like the farm in question also sells raw milk anyway so their standards for safety might be worse on top of that.
- mitkebes 8mo ago"Raw Farm has been associated with over a dozen other outbreaks and many recalls in the last 20 years, according to Bill Marler, a personal injury lawyer specializing in food poisoning outbreaks who has kept a record of the company’s outbreaks. Those outbreaks have been caused by a range of pathogenic bacteria known to be risks in unpasteurized dairy products, including E. coli, Salmonella, Campylobacter, and Listeria. A 2024 Salmonella outbreak connected to Raw Farm’s raw milk was linked to at least 171 illnesses." If true, it sounds like this is just par for the course.
- jmclnx 8mo agoOne thing to be aware of, pasteurization adds costs to dairy products. So it is being done for a real reason, not just "because". Companies will never pay to do anything unless not doing it will open them up to a law suit. So, raw milk does have some risks just based upon the the fact it costs to pasteurize milk.
- vjulian 8mo agoPresumably, you’re American? In many parts of the world we regularly consume cheese made with raw milk. For many cheeses, raw milk is preferable.
- ctoa 8mo agoEuropean cheese producers have their own costly methods of managing raw milk cheese safety. They have much more surveillance of the entire process, like rapid testing of milk for STEC (the microbe involved in this outbreak) and adding bioprotective cultures during milk production. In France there is an extensive monitoring/alert system. They aren't just YOLO-ing it.
- hsuduebc2 8mo agoWell if you harm someone by your contaminated product I believe that coming lawsuit could potentially be more expensive than warming the milk to 70 degrees for a minute. Especially in US.
- 8mo ago
- comrade1234 8mo agoI make cheese (ricotta and paneer) from raw milk all of the time at home. Raw milk is easy to buy here in Switzerland. I get a noticeably better result with raw milk than pasteurized, and terrible terrible results from ultra-pasteurized milk. By 'better' I mean quantity per liter but also the size of the curds. The thing that I find amusing is that I think people in the USA actually just chug raw milk like it's regular milk. Don't do that! You're supposed to heat to 60C minimum. When you make cheese you heat to higher - around 85C, when the milk surface turns foamy. A lot of cheese here is from raw milk. I'd even say most but I don't know that for sure. But even though you aren't pasteurizing the milk (high temp under pressure for short time) you are killing the bacteria on the first step.
- bena 8mo agoHeating milk to destroy pathogens has a name. It was named after the guy who originally discovered the process, Louis Pasteur.
- thebruce87m 8mo agoThe well known process of Louisurising milk.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- stefantalpalaru 8mo ago[dead]
- hsuduebc2 8mo agoIsn't the amount of cheese determined by amount of fat/protein in the milk itself and pasteurized is sometimes skimmed?
- BenjiWiebe 8mo agoThe yield is determined by the components (fat, protein, and other solids) in addition to the process the milk has underwent, and the cheese recipe. In our cheese making there's not a noticeable reduction in yield on pasteurized cheese, but we do a lower/slower pasteurization.
- abeppu 8mo agoI get that the norms lean conservative and that's a good thing. But if someone says you should do a recall and the actual lab tests saying whether your product actually has toxin-producing bacteria haven't finished running yet, I can understand the desire to wait until the evidence is in.
- autoexec 8mo agoThey've got some evidence, 7 known cases over three states all linked to the same product. The history of problems from this producer makes it seem more likely to be true. A lot of companies would rather have their customers throw away their product and buy it again from a different batch than risk having their customers get violently sick or dead from their food because the people who get sick and survive can end up with a very strong aversion to the brand and/or product going forward, and voluntarily recalling the product just to be safe is good from a PR stance since it looks like you actually care about your customers.
- alex43578 8mo agoPeople’s blindness to the benefits of things like pasteurization, washing their hands, and vaccines is crazy to me. What’s the next trend? Don’t refrigerate meat because “big-fridge” is out to get ya?
- comrade1234 8mo agoFermented meat is a thing. I know the thought of it is disgusting but corned beef is fermented meat. The best is when the bacteria eat at the connective and the meat gets a slightly foam texture. I make it about once a year.
- torlok 8mo agoApples and oranges. Derailing an argument with tangential topics will never cease to piss me off.
- andrewflnr 8mo agoI just thought they were raising an interesting fact. It's not like "lol antivaxxers" was much of an "argument" to derail anyway.
- alex43578 8mo agoI'll have to revise my original comment to say: "don't refrigerate, ferment, can, cure, dry, brine, pickle..."
- mrguyorama 8mo agoThere was also a tiny "trend" a couple years ago for stupid people letting meat rot and eating it for psychoactive effects. It was called "High meat" and it was more a trend in garbage news articles than reality but there was a tiny niche of youtube videos at least.
- alex43578 8mo agoYou get what I'm saying though, right? When I say washing hands, I'm not discounting the benefits/viability of hand sanitizer.
- throwaway5752 8mo agoSometimes criminals are unethical and lie, sometimes they are not smart or empathetic enough to accept they are causing harm to people. This is not some challenge to help them bridge that gap to understand, it is just why police are allowed to use force to imprison people that break the law and harm others.
- deepvibrations 8mo agoGood customer and pro-dairy "Health" Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. may help his friends out here. He himself is very pro-dairy, (thanks to lobby groups i imagine... Several dietary advisers appointed during his tenure have ties to the meat and dairy industry.
- scottyah 8mo agoOr he's just a traditionalist as he's stated many times, and for a Western European cow (and all derivative products like milk, cheese, beef) are up there with wheat. Bread and butter is a common phrase. Or there is some big conspiracy and he's trying to get rich at the detriment to his own health, or he's trying to get rich and his entire persona and diet is fake?
- deepvibrations 8mo agoWell yes, maybe a bit of both? Under the current administration, the dairy lobby has moved from being defensive (protecting subsidies) to being offensive - leveraging Secretary Kennedy's love milk/dairy to expand their market share within federal health policy. These PACs have a lot of money to throw around, so I am naturally a little suspicious. And I'll give him putting steak at the top of the new food pyramid , but having cheese literally at the top?? That's too much...
- fhn 8mo agowhat does traditionalist mean? He's antivax. He should pasteurize either. I hope he doesn't take flu shots or even go to the hospital because that is just unnatural. Who need medicine when he can just eat tomato leaves.
- scottyah 8mo agoIn this case, it's just being a bit more risk-adverse on new things. He's not trying to prevent all people from getting vaccines, he just doesn't want them mandated until they've passed FDA approval afaik. He's against things like petroleum-based food colorings, preferring colorings that have existed in food and deemed safe over a long time. He's anti-heavily processed foods, and believes that the "food science" that has gone into making some unhealthy foods literally addictive do more bad than good, and that we as a society should spend more time banning and regulating those things for the betterment of our people. There are absolutely lobbies he'll align with, just don't pretend that if he had different views there wouldn't be others jumping at the chance.
- juancn 8mo agoI love how the makers can "just disagree". I'm Argentinian and if ANMAT (our FDA) recalls something, it's gone, no involvement from the manufacturer really needed. They could revoke your license to make and sell food wholesale.
- legitster 8mo ago> Raw Farm, is rejecting the regulator’s findings and refusing to voluntarily recall its cheese. The FDA has mandatory and "voluntary" recalls. The FDA could require Raw Farms to recall their products if they had a strong enough case. This is mostly a non-story.
- autoexec 8mo agoIt's a great story for informing any suckers out there who bought this cheese that they should probably throw it out and avoid buying from the company in the future since they've got a long history of poisoning people and clearly don't care much about the safety of their customers.
- CodeWriter23 8mo agoOur Constitution accounts for government agents gone awry so there is back and forth. The FDA can go as far as mandating a recall but they need evidence, which they obviously lack at this point or they would just mandate the recall. This is some FDA operatives using the rules and a PR campaign to wage war on raw dairy, something that is not new in this country at all.
- legitster 8mo ago> Pasteurization is a simple process of briefly heating milk and other products to a temperature that can kill disease-causing germs. The FDA has highlighted studies finding that pasteurization does not negatively affect the nutritional value of milk. Still, advocates of raw milk continue to claim, without evidence, that raw dairy has benefits. This is a bit disingenuous of the reporter to include this. The appeal of raw milk is that it tastes better. Whether or not it's 'healthier' is kind of ephemeral and not really for the FDA to decide. Personally, I'll stick with pasteurized milk. But if people knowingly want to take risks I don't see why we can't just slap a warning label on these products.
- autoexec 8mo ago> Whether or not it's 'healthier' is kind of ephemeral and not really for the FDA to decide. Some raw milk producers and nut jobs claim that raw milk will cure or treat things like allergies, asthma, psoriasis, diabetes, high blood pressure, lactose intolerance, and arthritis. Those kinds of false claims along with their unproven claims on the nutritional difference are exactly what the FDA is supposed to address. Flavor is ephemeral. Whether or not something contains a vitamin or cures asthma is not.
- josefritzishere 8mo agoIt's a pretty bold move to say "Naw, we'd rather poison people with feces than do a recall right now." Perhaps it's a good moment to consult your attorney.
- CodeWriter23 8mo agoI don't know what their QA looks like but I don't think it's too big a stretch to think they retain samples of every batch and culture for such pathogens. Just to have the ammo to fight back. It is entirely possible mishandling could cause this. Like the many times I've gotten home from Trader Joe's to find the 'associate' unpacking the box sliced the product package open with their box cutter.