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Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

• basilikum 7mo ago
  OpenTTD with its beyond clunky UI has a special spot in my heart. There is even an Android version with the same very much not touch friendly (but somewhat customizable) UI.
• ocdtrekkie 7mo ago
  This seems quite positive to me: Clearly the rightsholders are not being total jerks since they're happy to allow an OpenTTD bundle, and the original game is available with modern fixes as well.
  • rasz 7mo ago
    More likely they were jerks and blackmailed openttd into bundle on the threat of forcing them off steam altogether.
    • LASR 7mo ago
      Yep. There is no being nice in the business of copyright. But to be fair, they’ve owned the original base game assets. Not to mention it’s a reverse engineered version of the base game.
      • ilyvion 7mo ago
        > There is no being nice in the business of copyright. Sure there is. The concept of "copyleft" is literally about using copyright to be nice.
    • ocdtrekkie 7mo ago
      They legally own the assets. Taking them off Steam if the title is no longer abandoned by the publisher is a 100% reasonable decision, so you need to understand this is above and beyond what the publisher needs to do. An outcome like this more than likely means the folks working on the rerelease are fans of OpenTTD and worked internally to protect it.
      • integralid 7mo ago
        Are you sure the stream version has proprietary assets? I was under impression that they had some open assets, but I may be wrong.
        • Krutonium 7mo ago
          OpenTTD has had entirely their own assets for 15 years.
          • hatsuseno 7mo ago
            But OpenTTD itself isn't a clean-room implementation of the game, it's a branch off a decompilation of the original game. If Atari was really out to copyright the project into oblivion, they're likely to succeed in a legal sense*. Within the confines of the current laws and known history of the game, and being a fan of both works, I think this compromise is fair. *NotALawyerClause
        • kmeisthax 7mo ago
          The issue isn't the game assets. The division between assets and code is something id invented so they could open up their old game engines while still being able to sell[0] copies of the original DOOM. But that boundary is entirely a choice of the developer, and a consequence of separability of copyright - if you make something, you can break up the rights and hand them out in different ways. Legally speaking, the only thing that matters is if any part of OpenTTD is the same as any part of Transport Tycoon. This part gets a little confusing in software, because we have a proud history of both cultural norms and actual caselaw allowing unauthorized reimplementation of other people's copyright-bearing APIs. Applying copyright to software basically created a mutant form of patent law that lasts forever, so the courts had to spend decades paring it back by defining boundaries between the two. Reimplementation precedent is part of that boundary. But all of that precedent relies upon software compatibility - the argument being that if you lawfully use someone else's software library to write software, you are not surrendering ownership over your own program to your library vendor, and someone else with a compatible replacement is not infringing the original library. Legal arguments relying on reimplementation work well when the APIs in question are minimally creative and there is a large amount of third-party software that used them. The closest example would be something like Ruffle, which reimplements a Flash Player runtime that was used for a countless number of games. OpenTTD exists to reimplement precisely one game, specifically to enable a bunch of unauthorized derivative works that would be facially illegal if they had been applied directly to the TTD source code. This wouldn't fly in court. In court, OpenTTD would be judged based on substantial similarity between its code and Transport Tycoon's code. While copyright does not apply to game rules, and cloning a game is legal[1], I am not aware of any effort in OpenTTD to ensure their implementation of those rules is creatively distinct from Transport Tycoon's. In fact, OpenTTD was forked from a disassembly of the latter, which is highly likely[2] to produce substantial similarity. tl;dr I'm genuinely surprised Atari didn't sue them off Steam! [0] Translation for pedants: "have a monopoly on selling". In the creative biz, two people generally don't make money selling the same thing. [1] Trade dress and trademark lawsuits notwithstanding - The Tetris Company has done an awful lot of litigation on that front. [2] The standard way to avoid this is clean-room reverse engineering. It's not a legal requirement, of course, but it helps a lot.
  • retired_account 7mo ago
    > If you already own OpenTTD on Steam, nothing changes. You’ll continue to receive game updates as usual. If you ever need to re-download the game, the game will remain in your Steam library. This part of the announcement was nice, too. It would suck if existing users had it deleted from their libraries.
    • Nition 7mo ago
      Steam is really good about that kind of thing. Not quite the same, but I have a couple of games on my account that haven't been sold on the store for years, and I can still download them any time. I don't think there's any way for publishers to really remove a game that's already been purchased.
      • Krutonium 7mo ago
        You're correct. It's part of the Steam Publisher Agreement that basically, you can't remove your game from users who have paid for it. And if you push an update that deletes the files, Valve can, will, and has rolled back the update. Of course, there's also situations where Valve has assisted in removing titles at developers request, but it was a situation Valve was involved in - Specifically, a game called "The Ship" had a Multiplayer version, and it was built on Source, but they could never quite get it to work correctly, even with Valve's help. Wouldn't sync. Valve helped them remove the Multiplayer version. (but you still kept the single player.)
        • oddmiral 7mo ago
          Steam deleted my perfectly working Arma3 2.x for Linux with no option to return it back, so I stopped to use Steam.
  • denotational 7mo ago
    Given the “rightsholders” have no rights over OpenTTD (only the assets are copyrightable, and OpenTTD has had its own set of open-source assets for the past 15 years), I can’t agree with this. I’m not sure how to interpret this other than Atari not wanting to compete with OpenTTD on Steam.
    • Tuna-Fish 7mo ago
      It's more complicated than that. For an asset to be derived work from an original, it is not necessary for it to contain anything from the original. If you start from copyrighted assets, and meticulously replace them all with your own art piece by piece, while following the style and constraints of the originals, and while looking at the originals, I'd bet that a court would find your work to be derived from the originals and therefore under their copyright. A lot of the fan-driven reimplementations of classic games are trivially derived works, because people seem to think that the copyright only covers the pixels in the originals and if you replace them you're fine.
      • anthk 7mo ago
        FreeDoom does that with Doom and it has compatible assets but not in the same style altough they are done in such smart way that most PWADs and TC are totally playable without clashes, from Requiem to Back To Saturn. On game engines, reimplementations are not derivations at all but tools for interoperability, totally legal to create. From Wine to most of the stuff of https://osgameclones.com https://osgameclones.com, to GNUStep against NeXT/OpenStep API (and Cocoa from early OSX) and so on. If you could sell Cedega back in the day you can totally sell OpenTTD with free assets, period. The entire PC industry exists today because of cheap IBM BIOS clones from Taiwan.
        • deleted 7mo ago
          [deleted]
        • Tuna-Fish 7mo ago
          Yes, the engines are fine. And if the assets are free, then it is fine to sell the engine with them. What I'm contending is if the assets are actually free. And just because they were all created by volunteers and contain no data from the originals doesn't mean that they are actually free. The rules around derived works are complicated, and too close homages have been found to be derived works, even if there is no actual copying. If this were to go into court, things that would matter would include both "how visually similar do they look" (the answer is "very"), and "was the artist aware of and did they refer to the originals while doing their work", (given it was done by volunteers who are enthusiasts of the original game, the answers are almost certainly "yes" and "they can't prove they didn't"). And on those facts, the new art is a derived work of the original and falls under its copyright.
  • rpcope1 7mo ago
    I kind of doubt that. Chris Sawyer is on record being really hostile to open source reimaginations, especially OpenTTD (and it's just a reimagination at this point as OpenTTD shares no assets or code with it's predecessor). It wouldn't remotely surprise me if Atari was putting legal pressure on the OpenTTD devs.
    • Macha 7mo ago
      I think really hostile is overstating it. He's clearly not a fan, but he seems content to (mostly privately) disapprove rather than take actions against it, which is what would to me qualify him as hostile.
      • Chaosvex 7mo ago
        He doesn't own the rights, so there's little he could do even if he wanted.
        • Macha 7mo ago
          He did reacquire the rights in 2010 in order to release his mobile port, and only sold them back to Atari in 2024 (https://www.gamesindustry.biz/atari-acquires-transport-tycoon-ip https://www.gamesindustry.biz/atari-acquires-transport-tycoo...) for them to do this re-release. So that's 14 years where he owned the rights and was aware of OpenTTD and left it alone.
    • singpolyma3 7mo ago
      I don't think they'd have any case for legitimate legal pressure but clearly some kind of underhanded bullying. Hopefully no one buys this
    • manytimesaway 7mo ago
      >Chris Sawyer is on record being really hostile to open source reimaginations No he's not. This is internet gossip.
• jjmarr 7mo ago
  I like Simutrans more because the cargo and passengers have destinations in mind. TTD and OpenTTD do not which incentivizes mechanisms to dump everyone at the edge of the map. Aside from that they're both transport games with bad UIs.
  • skulk 7mo ago
    OpenTTD has the `cargodist` option which simulates reality more closely. Passengers enter stations with a destination in mind and will transfer at other stations.
    • Macha 7mo ago
      Note that a big difference between cargodist and simutrans is in simutrans the customers have a destination before they come to your station, so opening up new routes will increase your customer base. In cargodist, you get the same amount of passengers, regardless of connected destinations, and they just choose from among connected destinations in your network.
      • pvdebbe 7mo ago
        I really want somebody to mod this into OpenTTD because cargodist was a good step and a nice approximation for a time, it's no match to the "destination in mind" pax. I'm reduced to play commercial offerings like Transport Fever 2. But as far as I know, it would be a considerable undertaking. Elsewhere in the thread chain: >[OpenTTD has bad UI] Hmm, really? It's cluttered with windows and options but I think the mechanics of windows popping and quick dismissing works out for this kind of a game really well. It scales across #n of monitors so well. I run mine on a 43" 4K television panel, no scaling, and I get all my screen estate I need. Works out so swimmingly.
        • jjmarr 7mo ago
          > I'm reduced to play commercial offerings like Transport Fever 2. Literally play Simutrans. Same window UI from the 90s.
• xyzzy_plugh 7mo ago
  It would be nice if someone could provide some explanation as to why this situation is necessary. Did Atari's lawyers go full tilt?
  • II2II 7mo ago
    Who knows, though I always thought that it was rather odd that OpenTTD was on Steam. I'm not sure whether that's because it is an open source remake or because you had to own the original for the graphics/sound assets back in the day. (Apparently that changed over 15 years ago!) Even if Atari's lawyers were involved, it may have been a friendly exchange. The post claims that OpenTTD was available on Steam for 5 years. That is more than enough time for them to apply legal pressure. It's also worth noting that the open source version is still available from the project website, as are the open assets.
    • Krutonium 7mo ago
      As someone who has been involved in OpenRCT2, which is another Chris Sawyer/Atari game, from what I can tell, Atari has a very hands off approach to these things. We know they know about us - We saw their Head of PR giving away keys for RCT2 on Twitch while playing OpenRCT2, prior to the release of RCT World (What a terrible game sadly). As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bother you" situation.
      • squeaky-clean 7mo ago
        I remember reading an interview some years ago where they basically said they wouldn't try to shut them down, but they also did not appreciate the projects existing.
        • Krutonium 7mo ago
          If I recall that correctly, Atari didn't want to do anything about it because it drives sales for TTD and RCT (in the case of OpenRCT2, it drives sales for 2 games even, since you need the assets from 2, and can also import more assets from 1, and even further, you can also use Classic as your base, so like, many many options), while Chris Sawyer didn't particularly like their existence, but not enough to go and force Atari to do anything about it.
• ndiddy 7mo ago
  Obviously having OpenTTD available for free on Steam would jeopardize Atari's paid rerelease of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, so I think this is a good compromise. Hopefully they rigged it up so the assets from Transport Tycoon Deluxe get picked up automatically by OpenTTD when you install the bundle. I also hope that Atari will be sharing some of the revenue from the bundle with the OpenTTD team as part of this arrangement. They've spent the last 20+ years adding nice quality of life features and keeping the game playable, and I think they deserve to be rewarded for that effort. Going back to stock TTD after playing OpenTTD feels like a massive downgrade, like going from vim to BSD vi.
  • throwaway2027 7mo ago
    [flagged]
  • chrneu 7mo ago
    I have nothing to base this on other than "it makes sense", but it seems like there has to be some form of revenue sharing here. OpenTTD is the reason why atari can even think this rerelease would work. I'm not saying there wouldn't be interest, but that I don't think any of the suits at atari would think to do this without OpenTTD keeping the interest there.
    • crooked-v 7mo ago
      If there was any kind of revenue sharing, I'm sure it would have been in the OpenTTD announcement, and not the pure lawyer-speak version they did release.
    • pas 7mo ago
      why do you think a revenue sharing is more likely than Atari simply pushing around the volunteer project (and the OpenTTD project simply not risking any kind of legal conflict)?
  • singpolyma3 7mo ago
    It doesn't seem like a compromise. It seems like bullying
• koolala 7mo ago
  Atari got a game I like called Awesomenauts and revived it from being shutdown F2P to $20. They paid an old dev to get it playable on a temporary contract. Though it has a few rough qualities I'm glad it's playable again.
  • niam 7mo ago
    Wow small world. Hello from a fellow L1 (2012-2016). I didn't realize Ronimo had gone bankrupt, so I suppose I should be glad I have a chance to boot it up again.
• TuxMark5 7mo ago
  This doesn't feel right for me. OpenTTD is so much superior in every way compared to the original TTD, that noone in their right mind would ever play the original. So Atari now, while spending zero effort compared to the years of work that OpenTTD devs put in, will basically sell OpenTTD as if was their own creation. People who buy the new TTD will simply play OpenTTD anyway, since it's so much better. I might be wrong, but it feels like Atari are like parasites in this situation feeding off the hard work of OpenTTD devs.
  • jorl17 7mo ago
    I can look at this from 2 additional perspectives: - OpenTTD (a game I truly love and have followed since before the 0.3 days) was not born as a clean-room reimplementation of TTD. It started as a disassembly effort, something which is perhaps morally gray, especially if you take into account the original TTD was coded in assembly (with sprinkles of C). Perhaps this way there is some vague contribution that goes towards Chris Sawyer? - This is a way you can legally get the original graphics of the game (GRF). Although I think the shareware version technically also worked...
  • altairprime 7mo ago
    The downsides of putting “TTD” in the name “OpenTTD” is a certain level of vulnerability to the original creator (or a rights inheritor) deciding it’s worth their time to care again someday. I suspect this will do more for the TTD community than it will harm it, though; any modern sale of TTD is targeted precisely at the folks who would take mortal offense at harm to OpenTTD, and $10 (which would have been merely $5 in 2000) is the opposite of egregious after 100% inflation pushed AAA games towards $90 these days. I paid $5 for a used copy of SimTower back then, I would happily pay the same today for TTD resources, so this is all fine. I get that Atari isn’t perhaps as loved as, say, Bullfrog or Dynamix, but better that companies respect their properties and their fans with an outcome like this, than be another boringly-common community-destroying Nintendo Lawyer Takedown Club. (It’s also now in line with the various WAD and Descent games over time that used this model, where the engine is maximum rewrite amazing but the game resources require a GOG purchase. The point of rewrites isn’t to deprive the games of revenue!)
• r2vcap 7mo ago
  Atari? I never expected to see that ancient name again. If I remember correctly, I've been playing OpenTTD for more than a decade without the original TTD assets, and I usually build it from source, so this change won’t really affect me. Still, it feels a bit strange (even if it may be somewhat legitimate) to see Atari suddenly asserting rights over it.
  • PunchyHamster 7mo ago
    The corpse of the company has been puppeteered by various owners for decades now
• xyzzy_plugh 7mo ago
  Weirdly the OpenTTD Steam page seems to be missing entirely at the moment: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1536610/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1536610/
  • haunter 7mo ago
    Not weirdly, that's the point of the whole announcement. You can't get OpenTTD on its own from Steam anymore, it comes with TTD now https://store.steampowered.com/app/3766810/Transport_Tycoon_Deluxe/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/3766810/Transport_Tycoon_...
    • xyzzy_plugh 7mo ago
      No, you misread. It's bundled on that page, which links to here: https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/70574/Transport_Tycoon_Deluxe__OpenTTD/ https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/70574/Transport_Tycoon... But the OpenTTD item listed in the bundle is non-existent at the moment.
      • haunter 7mo ago
        Doesn't matter because you can't buy on its own. It's like a free DLC. https://steamdb.info/bundle/70574/#subs https://steamdb.info/bundle/70574/#subs https://steamdb.info/app/1536610/ https://steamdb.info/app/1536610/
        • Sophira 7mo ago
          It does matter, because the store page isn't just for buying - it's also for seeing system requirements, reading any applicable EULAs before purchase, and reading reviews. You can't do those from any other page on Steam. Since the bundle is a separate purchase option and not replacing the option to buy TTD on its own, it also allows people to easily find out what they're in for by providing a description of what OpenTTD is, as opposed to just buying TTD on its own.
• nout 7mo ago
  What is the story with OpenGFX then? It sounds like OpenTTD is completely new codebase and OpenGFX (which I also helped with) is completely new graphics. Why does one have to pay for that?
  • jonathanlydall 7mo ago
    It seems to me one does not have to pay for it. OpenTTD can be downloaded for free off the website, but if you want it through Steam it’s only available in a $10 bundle.
• sarru_kin 7mo ago
  Just use gog
  • shagie 7mo ago
    What about other platforms and stores? The same change has been made on the GOG.com store. All other distribution platforms are unchanged, and you can continue to download OpenTTD from our web site. However if you enjoy playing OpenTTD but you were never able to purchase a copy of the original Transport Tycoon game, you now have the opportunity to do so!
  • singpolyma3 7mo ago
    Just get direct from OpenTTD or your OS
• anesxvito 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  • koolala 7mo ago
    Isn't it just releasing binary builds? Lots of open source projects share binaries and code. What is the tension around freedom? The awkward part I wonder about is deciding which maintainer is authority over third-party distribution and who has control of the steam page.
    • wartijn_ 7mo ago
      Fyi, you are replying to an llm
      • koolala 7mo ago
        That's why I replied. A OpenClaw bot?
        • wartijn_ 7mo ago
          Seems likely
• stephbook 7mo ago
  Honestly fair and understandable. OpenTTD builds on TTD (it's right there in the name.) You aren't forced to play OpenTTD and you aren't forced to get it on Steam/GoG. It's acceptable.
  • anthk 7mo ago
    OpenTTD now has a totally free asset pack covering everything, it doesn't need the original TTD at all.
  • singpolyma3 7mo ago
    "builds on" in concept and by using the same three letters. Not builds on in a legal sense
    • simonh 7mo ago
      It’s tricky. It started out by disassembling the commercial binaries. There may not be any original code left, but it’s certainly not a clean room project.
• Bengalilol 7mo ago
  Surprisingly, this is an interesting outcome. Atari could have been worse (better too).
• boxedemp 7mo ago
  I get it, but it makes me sad. At least I already have it in my library so, looks like I still get updates.
• binaryturtle 7mo ago
  So does OpenTTD gets a part of the generated income then? The team has costs too to support the game.
• khoirul 7mo ago
  Lots of words, but nowhere does it say: why?. Did Chris Sawyer sue them or something?
  • DiabloD3 7mo ago
    Chris Sawyer has not been involved in TTD for quite some time, and any remaining rights he had were bought out officially in 2024. Chris Sawyer was last involved in the IP when it was rugpulled out from under him in the early 2000s and sent to Frontier Developments, the Planet Zoo and Planet Coaster guys, to bury the IP in an unmarked grave with RCT3; Frontier is also the same guys that screwed Haemimont Games games over, the Tropico and Surviving Mars guys, leading to the studio being bought out and rebooted by Paradox to continue Surviving Mars development. The IP ownership has been legally retained by Atari SA, aka Infogrames, aka GT Interactive, aka GoodTimes Entertainment, which has a very long history of screwing game developers and stealing their IP out from under them and also misrepresenting IP ownership and licensing. Now, it is also worth mentioning that Chris Sawyer is anti-open source, so he probably personally approves of trying to steal money from OpenTTD players, even if he isn't personally getting a cut of it.
    • bigstrat2003 7mo ago
      > Now, it is also worth mentioning that Chris Sawyer is anti-open source, so he probably personally approves of trying to steal money from OpenTTD players, even if he isn't personally getting a cut of it. It's pretty rude to put something like that on him if he hasn't actually said that.
      • koolala 7mo ago
        The closest thing was his representative saying something: https://www.reddit.com/r/rct/comments/x6gh81/til_chris_sawyers_representatives_consider/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rct/comments/x6gh81/til_chris_sawye... "The project has no blessing or support from Chris Sawyer and our view, it is both unethical and unlawful, involving infringements that may in some territories be criminal as well as a violation of Chris Sawyer's rights and those of his licensees - all of which remain reserved. RollerCoaster Tycoon Classic, distributed by Atari, contains RCT and RCT2 rebuilt for modern operating systems under Chris's own direction. Sincerely Guy Herbert Director Marjacq The Space 235 High Holborn LONDON WC1V 7DN" But not Chris Sawyer.
• singron 7mo ago
  If you like OpenTTD, you may want to try OpenTTD-JGRPP (JGRennison's Patch Pack). It has a bunch of additional QoL improvements and additional features. It was never distributed on Steam, so nothing has changed there. https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches https://github.com/JGRennison/OpenTTD-patches
• kapija 7mo ago
  i mean its cool that they made the original playable but having to get an ancient game alongside the one you actually wanna play is stupid
• xjbdbdbjy 7mo ago
  I think this is the correct move and I hope the OpenTTD community gets a cut of the sales and was not just bullied to agree In order to play OpenTTD you needed the original assets. Now they are bundled People already having the assets were most likely always technical enough to get the OpenTTD builds Only casual users would discover OpenTTD on stream to be frustrated by not being able to play it without an additional purchase
  • TiredOfLife 7mo ago
    Version where don't need original assets to play OpenTTD was released 16 years ago.
• Fizz43 7mo ago
  No one should pay for this. The players own the game now not some IP rights vulture.
• gbraad 7mo ago
  Wade Rosen resurrected a failing Atari, but from multiple interviews it doesn't feel like he is really OK with emulation, as he often refers to the piracy part of this. I feel this was an action they as project did not have much say in, ... as they also clearly stay away from answering a why
• manytimesaway 7mo ago
  People seems to forget that besides console offshoots, the original Transport Tycoon (Deluxe or not) has not been legally available for what seems to be an eternity, without paying crazy eBay prices. This is a much better compromise than usual in the gaming industry.
• laserdancepony 7mo ago
  In my opinion this is just another example of our broken copyright system. That copyright should have expired years ago, so no troll company which happens to resurrect Ataris corpse for the tenth time can pull stuff like this. But the lobbyism is too strong for a reasonable 15 or 20 year copyright limit.