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Great article. Fungi produced the environment we now live in. The symbiotic relationship plants have with fungi is the basis behind the idea of no-till farming.

Great article. Fungi produced the environment we now live in. The symbiotic relationship plants have with fungi is the basis behind the idea of no-till farming. Plants are much healthier and require less input when there is a thriving fungal community in the soil. Tilling kills fungal mycelium and turns the balance to bacteria.

adrian_b 7mo ago
Besides such uses in improving traditional agriculture, I believe that the future of protein production, which is needed to supplement plant-based food, does not stay in making fake meat from animal cell cultures, like many attempt to do today, in order to sell to rich vegans. In my opinion, with animal cell cultures it is extremely unlikely to ever be able to produce proteins at a competitive cost. By competitive cost I mean that any such proteins should cost much less than chicken meat (per protein content). What I believe to be the right solution, because this should be able to produce high-quality proteins at lower costs than from any animal source, is to use cultures of genetically-modified fungi, which produce some high-quality proteins, e.g. whey protein or egg white protein. There already exist genetically-modified strains of the fungus Trichoderma, which produce such animal proteins, instead of the enzymes that they normally secreted into their environment. Such proteins can be separated from the fungal culture medium by ultrafiltration, in the same way how one makes from whey or milk whey protein concentrate or milk protein concentrate.
- spongebobstoes 7mo ago
  vegan options lack flavor/texture. cost isn't the main issue
  - adrian_b 7mo ago
    Not everyone craves the flavor/texture of meat, but everyone needs an adequate intake of high quality protein. Including protein powder as a cooking ingredient does not do much for improving the taste of food (though the food definitely feels more satiating), but it ensures that it is healthy enough. Even if I liked meat, I never felt any kind of addiction to it. There are many years since the last time when I ate meat and I feel no need to eat again, as long as I have a lot of other options for food that is tasty and healthy. For several years I have not used any animal protein sources, but this forced too inconvenient constraints on what I could eat, so eventually I gave up and now I use in cooking some whey or milk protein concentrate powder, whenever it is necessary to increase the protein content. This has provided much more freedom in menu choice. So for me, if instead of having to buy protein extracted from whey or milk (which costs about the same as chicken meat, i.e. many times cheaper than protein concentrates extracted from plants, which must use much more complicated processes than the filtration of whey or milk) there would be the option of buying similar protein from a fungal culture, that would be enough to cover all my needs. From other comments that I have seen about the fake meat products, I am pretty sure that there are many others like me, who do not care whether they eat meat or not, as long as they eat some good food.
  - mmooss 7mo ago
    You're missing out on an infinity of great food - great for anyone, vegan or not. Just think of all the Chinese, Latin American, Indian, etc. food that is vegan. Think of many appetizers even in mostly-meat restaurants. And there are world-class restaurants that serve vegan dishes Eliminating beef, fowl, and fish leaves a universe of foods including all fungi, fruits and vegetables, grains, nuts, and legumes. It also includes all spices and herbs.
    - aziaziazi 7mo ago
      Double that. I'll also recommend to try some fungi/bacteria pre-processing as it bumps the taste: Kimchi & Sauerkraut to wet the appetite. Don't use salt, use Miso. The darker the better. Tempeh is awesome and comes with soy (nutty), lentil (strong taste like aged meat), chickpeas (floral), beans (melty), or other legume/cereal/nut. Can include spices and seed for extra taste and crunch. Nuts cheese tastes "cheesy" in a similar way similar to their diary version (Roquefort, Cheddar, Blue, Camembert, Brie...) depending on the ferment, without the "milky" taste. Nut taste instead, obviously but that can be offset with other oils/fats.
      - andyferris 7mo ago
        I actually really like "milky" tastes - has there been much progress on replicating the flavour?
        aziaziazi 7mo ago
        IMHO the Chèvre (goat) [0] and Morbier (bleu) [1] from Jay and Joy are very close. They also comes a bit cheaper in non-organic version [2]. I mostly buy from those guys but the curious may try a few from their local brands: when talking about cheese every recipe is has it's subtlety. 0 https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/le-jeanne-bleu-vegan https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/le-jeann... 1 https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/jil-fromage-de-chevre-vegan https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/jil-from... 2 https://www.lesnouveauxaffineurs.com/ https://www.lesnouveauxaffineurs.com/
    - 7mo ago
- jessetemp 7mo ago
  It doesn't need to be cheaper than the cheapest meat to be competitive. If there's some social or moral incentive to avoid real meat, that adds value to plant based alternatives. Fungi protein sounds cool though. I would totally add that to my diet. But I also think insects are an underutilized protein source, so I might be an outlier
  - adrian_b 7mo ago
    Even when your personal budget would allow spending more for food, a price that is higher than that of meat is a serious red flag, indicating that it is likely that such a substitute for meat has greater environmental consequences than producing meat. There are 3 reasons for avoiding meat. One is the ethical reason, because during the last century meat production has transitioned everywhere to using methods that can hardly be considered anything else but continuous torture. There are also certain health risks associated with meat and there is also the reason that the real cost of meat may be greater than it appears to be, due to negative environmental consequences (i.e. pollution). If some kind of protein extract or some kind of fake meat is more expensive than real meat (per protein content), you can be rather certain that the negative environmental consequences are worse than for real meat, because the higher cost is likely to be determined by the consumption of more energy and of various kinds of chemicals during the production of the meat substitute.
    - jessetemp 7mo ago
      Higher cost doesn't always indicate negative environmental consequences. It could be (and seems likely to me) that harvesting one cow's worth of plant protein is more labor intensive which isn't necessarily bad for the environment. If you compare two soy crops, one that uses herbicides and another that uses manual labor to pull weeds, the latter will be more expensive and better for the environment
    - aziaziazi 7mo ago
      Economy of scale and subsidies have a major influence on shelf prices. Is is a red flag to be a small producer and/or not profiting from public money? Some wouldn't cold-ban a product only based on it's price, especially if it's pioneering. Being "certain that the negative environmental consequences are worse" seems an stretch from weak initial judgement.
- Mossy9 7mo ago
  Onego Bio is using fungi to produce ovalbumin, one of the major protein in eggs. Their process seems stable, so it might play a big role especially in industrial food production pretty quickly https://www.onego.bio/product https://www.onego.bio/product
  - LargoLasskhyfv 7mo ago
    Interesting. Makes me wonder if it could used as a binder in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn According to the article they still rely on conventionally sourced eggwhite for that function. Should be mentioned as in the general context of meat ersatz, anyway.
- Melatonic 7mo ago
  Couldnt it just produce a mushroom protein in larger quantities / concentration? Might be easier
- metalman 7mo ago
  hen of the woods, shelf mushrooms, look , taste, and have the texture of chicken breast meat, and sometimes grow very prolificaly on large dying hardwoods, ie: fill pickup trucks from one tree. it also stores very well at room temperature, and just drys out if left in room temp conditions for weeks+ but it if finicky about where and when it grows, like most fungus. as your typical, on the land outdoors type, I see and examine many different kinds of mushrooms and fungus, of which there seems to be an inexaustable variety. as another note, I canno longer enjoy many tropical fruits, and other industrial agricultural products, because I can taste mold, just a hint in a lot of it, but pervasive to the point of "why bother"
hinkley 7mo ago
In my lifetime the conversation has shifted from mineral farming with chemical fertilizers to managing microbes to microbes doing the managing. There is a case to be made for many species of plants effectively being a previously unidentified manner of lichen. Created on mineral soil much the same way lichen grew on rocks.

adrian_b 7mo ago

Besides such uses in improving traditional agriculture, I believe that the future of protein production, which is needed to supplement plant-based food, does not stay in making fake meat from animal cell cultures, like many attempt to do today, in order to sell to rich vegans. In my opinion, with animal cell cultures it is extremely unlikely to ever be able to produce proteins at a competitive cost. By competitive cost I mean that any such proteins should cost much less than chicken meat (per protein content). What I believe to be the right solution, because this should be able to produce high-quality proteins at lower costs than from any animal source, is to use cultures of genetically-modified fungi, which produce some high-quality proteins, e.g. whey protein or egg white protein. There already exist genetically-modified strains of the fungus Trichoderma, which produce such animal proteins, instead of the enzymes that they normally secreted into their environment. Such proteins can be separated from the fungal culture medium by ultrafiltration, in the same way how one makes from whey or milk whey protein concentrate or milk protein concentrate.

spongebobstoes 7mo ago
vegan options lack flavor/texture. cost isn't the main issue
- adrian_b 7mo ago
  Not everyone craves the flavor/texture of meat, but everyone needs an adequate intake of high quality protein. Including protein powder as a cooking ingredient does not do much for improving the taste of food (though the food definitely feels more satiating), but it ensures that it is healthy enough. Even if I liked meat, I never felt any kind of addiction to it. There are many years since the last time when I ate meat and I feel no need to eat again, as long as I have a lot of other options for food that is tasty and healthy. For several years I have not used any animal protein sources, but this forced too inconvenient constraints on what I could eat, so eventually I gave up and now I use in cooking some whey or milk protein concentrate powder, whenever it is necessary to increase the protein content. This has provided much more freedom in menu choice. So for me, if instead of having to buy protein extracted from whey or milk (which costs about the same as chicken meat, i.e. many times cheaper than protein concentrates extracted from plants, which must use much more complicated processes than the filtration of whey or milk) there would be the option of buying similar protein from a fungal culture, that would be enough to cover all my needs. From other comments that I have seen about the fake meat products, I am pretty sure that there are many others like me, who do not care whether they eat meat or not, as long as they eat some good food.
- mmooss 7mo ago
  You're missing out on an infinity of great food - great for anyone, vegan or not. Just think of all the Chinese, Latin American, Indian, etc. food that is vegan. Think of many appetizers even in mostly-meat restaurants. And there are world-class restaurants that serve vegan dishes Eliminating beef, fowl, and fish leaves a universe of foods including all fungi, fruits and vegetables, grains, nuts, and legumes. It also includes all spices and herbs.
  - aziaziazi 7mo ago
    Double that. I'll also recommend to try some fungi/bacteria pre-processing as it bumps the taste: Kimchi & Sauerkraut to wet the appetite. Don't use salt, use Miso. The darker the better. Tempeh is awesome and comes with soy (nutty), lentil (strong taste like aged meat), chickpeas (floral), beans (melty), or other legume/cereal/nut. Can include spices and seed for extra taste and crunch. Nuts cheese tastes "cheesy" in a similar way similar to their diary version (Roquefort, Cheddar, Blue, Camembert, Brie...) depending on the ferment, without the "milky" taste. Nut taste instead, obviously but that can be offset with other oils/fats.
    - andyferris 7mo ago
      I actually really like "milky" tastes - has there been much progress on replicating the flavour?
      - aziaziazi 7mo ago
        IMHO the Chèvre (goat) [0] and Morbier (bleu) [1] from Jay and Joy are very close. They also comes a bit cheaper in non-organic version [2]. I mostly buy from those guys but the curious may try a few from their local brands: when talking about cheese every recipe is has it's subtlety. 0 https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/le-jeanne-bleu-vegan https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/le-jeann... 1 https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/jil-fromage-de-chevre-vegan https://www.jay-joy.com/collections/affine/products/jil-from... 2 https://www.lesnouveauxaffineurs.com/ https://www.lesnouveauxaffineurs.com/
  - 7mo ago
jessetemp 7mo ago
It doesn't need to be cheaper than the cheapest meat to be competitive. If there's some social or moral incentive to avoid real meat, that adds value to plant based alternatives. Fungi protein sounds cool though. I would totally add that to my diet. But I also think insects are an underutilized protein source, so I might be an outlier
- adrian_b 7mo ago
  Even when your personal budget would allow spending more for food, a price that is higher than that of meat is a serious red flag, indicating that it is likely that such a substitute for meat has greater environmental consequences than producing meat. There are 3 reasons for avoiding meat. One is the ethical reason, because during the last century meat production has transitioned everywhere to using methods that can hardly be considered anything else but continuous torture. There are also certain health risks associated with meat and there is also the reason that the real cost of meat may be greater than it appears to be, due to negative environmental consequences (i.e. pollution). If some kind of protein extract or some kind of fake meat is more expensive than real meat (per protein content), you can be rather certain that the negative environmental consequences are worse than for real meat, because the higher cost is likely to be determined by the consumption of more energy and of various kinds of chemicals during the production of the meat substitute.
  - jessetemp 7mo ago
    Higher cost doesn't always indicate negative environmental consequences. It could be (and seems likely to me) that harvesting one cow's worth of plant protein is more labor intensive which isn't necessarily bad for the environment. If you compare two soy crops, one that uses herbicides and another that uses manual labor to pull weeds, the latter will be more expensive and better for the environment
  - aziaziazi 7mo ago
    Economy of scale and subsidies have a major influence on shelf prices. Is is a red flag to be a small producer and/or not profiting from public money? Some wouldn't cold-ban a product only based on it's price, especially if it's pioneering. Being "certain that the negative environmental consequences are worse" seems an stretch from weak initial judgement.
Mossy9 7mo ago
Onego Bio is using fungi to produce ovalbumin, one of the major protein in eggs. Their process seems stable, so it might play a big role especially in industrial food production pretty quickly https://www.onego.bio/product https://www.onego.bio/product
- LargoLasskhyfv 7mo ago
  Interesting. Makes me wonder if it could used as a binder in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn According to the article they still rely on conventionally sourced eggwhite for that function. Should be mentioned as in the general context of meat ersatz, anyway.
Melatonic 7mo ago
Couldnt it just produce a mushroom protein in larger quantities / concentration? Might be easier
metalman 7mo ago
hen of the woods, shelf mushrooms, look , taste, and have the texture of chicken breast meat, and sometimes grow very prolificaly on large dying hardwoods, ie: fill pickup trucks from one tree. it also stores very well at room temperature, and just drys out if left in room temp conditions for weeks+ but it if finicky about where and when it grows, like most fungus. as your typical, on the land outdoors type, I see and examine many different kinds of mushrooms and fungus, of which there seems to be an inexaustable variety. as another note, I canno longer enjoy many tropical fruits, and other industrial agricultural products, because I can taste mold, just a hint in a lot of it, but pervasive to the point of "why bother"

hinkley 7mo ago

In my lifetime the conversation has shifted from mineral farming with chemical fertilizers to managing microbes to microbes doing the managing. There is a case to be made for many species of plants effectively being a previously unidentified manner of lichen. Created on mineral soil much the same way lichen grew on rocks.