5 ms·

I'm adding this to my repertoire of HIGs to study for a new desktop environment project I'm working on. I'm trying to synthesize the best parts of every compute

I'm adding this to my repertoire of HIGs to study for a new desktop environment project I'm working on. I'm trying to synthesize the best parts of every computer interaction method, primarily focusing on desktops but looking at mobile designs as well. There are 2 principle reasons for this project: 1. UNIX desktops objectively suck compared to their Mac and Windows cousins, either being too complex to learn and bombarding the user with options (KDE, XFCE) or being so dumbed down and rigid to be actually usable (GNOME, to a lesser extend CDE) 2. I'm a massive fan of the GNU project and the way it designs software and none of the current desktops integrate well with it (EG: texinfo manuals, emacs-y keybinds, A wealth of customization if you want it but otherwise easy to pick up and use)

jim180 8mo ago
would you mind sharing your library of HIGs?
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  I can give a list of ones I'm studying CUA (87 and 91 versions) Awaita Breeze Material (primarily 3, but also 2 and 1) Apples HIG Microsofts HIG and Motifs HIG Some of these aren't technically HIGs and are rather "design-systems" but they all contain the commonality of trying to set up a consistent model for user-interaction in their environment
cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
I'll be keeping an eye out for your DE. For a long time now, the Linux desktop space as a whole has been rather uninspired in my opinion. A few interesting ideas have surfaced within it but failed to become popular for one reason or another, making for a rather stale environment. That's not to say that it needs to be in constant flux or to be full of radical ideas. If anything, it'd be nice to see more DEs settle into a design and feature set and chase stability, efficiency, and performance over shinies. Rather, I think it would be better if more Linux DEs were built around coherent, opinionated design philosophies that cleanly set them all apart from each other. Even if that design philosphy is just "N platform's desktop, refined to its ultimate form", it's better than the "aimless bag of features" direction that's most common.
- RGamma 8mo ago
  IMHO if you can afford some setup time just skipping the DE entirely is still the best option. My i3wm setup plus some scripts and services was super lean and efficient. Still buried it for reasons I can't remember, switched distro too, but when I find the time I'm eager to create a tiling WM, wayland native UI on NixOS again.
  - cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
    It's a decent option for those who lean technical and like minimal WMs, but none are really my cup of tea. I've played with several and probably the one I enjoyed most was OpenBox which is the least like a minimal WM and most like a traditional floating DE, but it still wasn't what I was looking for.
  - mghackerlady 8mo ago
    I definitely agree, but those are hard to approach for newcomers. GNU shouldn't just be usable by those willing to put in extensive time, it should be easy to grok for newcomers as well (how else would we spread free software?). There is of course an amount of learning that might be required, as with any system, but we should balance that with the power of the software. systems like GNOME balance it by making the software near useless in exchange for the ability to be used without needing to learn or challenge anything, adopting user interface patterns designed to restrict the user as it's easier for people to instantly know how to do something. That's like trying to make a house easier to live in by locking the doors and putting up barred windows to accommodate those previously living in prison
- inigyou 8mo ago
  Please can we just have Windows 98 again. Not the kernel, kernels are better now, but UIs have only gone downhill from there. Win9x was peak "it just works" (as long as it doesn't crash so please, no win9x kernels)
  - mghackerlady 8mo ago
    Well, this will be on a unix and it will be libre so its already better than windows, but I am heavily inspired by the 9x design language in multiple ways. Of course, things have changed and current tastes must be accommodated but there are important ideas that can be pulled from it
resters 8mo ago
great idea! would love to star a repo or otherwise follow the project.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  Still in the planning phases. I've had many ideas and am excited to share them
klaussilveira 8mo ago
I wouldn't use modern Windows as a good reference in user interface and user experience. If anything, is an experiment in user hostility.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  Certainly not a reference, rather I'm looking at what each platform does good and trying to combine them in a way that empowers the user rather than fearing them
  - DANmode 8mo ago
    Where can I follow your progress?
jimmaswell 8mo ago
How is KDE like that? If you don't go out of your way to change options, you aren't "bombarded" with anything, it just works.
- cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
  Can only speak for myself but the problem is that with KDE there's always stuff I need to go in and change because I don't like the defaults, and then I fall into a rabbit hole of endless tweaking from which it's difficult to escape because no matter how much time I spend I can never get it to be just right.
  - hypercube33 8mo ago
    Funny I feel the same about gnome. I haven't played with others enough to comment I suppose but all are missing some basic creature comfort stuff like a full tcp/up config dialog or a real fluid working app store out of the box. Distros add these but what is going on here.
    - cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
      The thing with GNOME is having to stack a bunch of extensions (most of which will only somewhat meet your needs) to get desired features, half of which will break periodically because there’s no stable extension API. GNOME and KDE sit on extreme opposite ends of the minimalist/maximalist spectrum.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  The wealth of things in the KDE settings are things people will likely never change or are things that can be tweaked but don't necessarily need to be. For example, let's look at GNOMEs settings app. It has menus and options for all the things that the average user needs (network settings, mouse and display options, etc.) but leaves out, for example, things that people need to change for specific workflows (like the option to have focus follow the mouse). A settings app should let the user set things needed for the functions of a computer to work properly while separating deeper level customization for those who want it. I think emacs does a very good job at this. You can configure most of the settings people need to be productive in a text editor from the menu bar while leaving the extremely rich customization of emacs to the options menu and elisp config files
relium 8mo ago
The best book I've ever read on the topic was the classic Mac OS Human Interface Guidelines. I still recommend them even though some of the specifics are out-of-date. https://dev.os9.ca/techpubs/mac/pdf/HIGuidelines.pdf https://dev.os9.ca/techpubs/mac/pdf/HIGuidelines.pdf
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  It's on my list as well. I really appreciate the MacOS handles progressive disclosure, something most environments either get wrong or misunderstand (caugh caugh GNOME caugh caugh) ETA: One thing I forgot to mention is how playful MacOS was (and to an extent still is). They recognised that the easiest way to learn something is by messing with it and seeing what happens. It also caused it to be very approachable through what I like to call 'professional unprofessionalism'. It wasn't afraid to use silly metaphors or graphics to get a point across without crossing the line into seeming out of place in a work environment or feeling infantilising
  - Lammy 8mo ago
    Needs moar Copland (R.I.P.) https://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/developer/Copland/D11E4_19960613/Human_Interface_Toolbox_19960430.pdf https://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/developer/Copland/D11E4_...
    - msephton 8mo ago
      All* the HIG at https://github.com/gingerbeardman/apple-human-interface-guidelines https://github.com/gingerbeardman/apple-human-interface-guid... *as many as we have found
- krickelkrackel 8mo ago
  I'd want to add "Designing Interactions" by Bill Moggridge (IDEO, designer of the first 'laptop' computer): https://www.amazon.com/-/en/Designing-Interactions-Press-Bill-Moggridge/dp/0262134748 https://www.amazon.com/-/en/Designing-Interactions-Press-Bil...
- 8mo ago
hypercube33 8mo ago
If you're looking at Windows peak was like Win2000
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  I agree to an extent. I have some problems with it but I appreciate the way it approached new users. Instead of instantly trying to accommodate them it instead presented itself to the user in ways that let the user learn, sometimes the hard way.
- NetMageSCW 8mo ago
  Nah - peak was Windows 7.
cpeterso 8mo ago
If you haven't already, check out Microsoft's "The Windows® 95 User Interface: A Case Study in Usability Engineering" report summarizing some of the Windows 95 designers' user research: https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/238386.238611 https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/238386.238611
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  I read it and it partially inspired the entire project. It made me realise how inaccessible modern design is despite being held up as best in class and easy to use
WillAdams 8mo ago
If you want a photocopy of the Go Corp. PenPoint UI guidelines let me know and I'll see if I can dig out a copy from a binder which I got w/ an SDK I purchased years ago --- I really miss PenPoint, and always thought it was one of the better UI environments. contact info is my user name here at aol.com
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  1) I'll be sure to reach out 2) You still use AOL? Is it just you've had it long enough to not want to switch or do you actively choose to use it for some reason I might've missed?
  - WillAdams 8mo ago
    1. I'll start looking 2. Yes, I was a charter member (who unfortunately, was broke when they offered the chance to buy stock), and it's easy to remember, and everything online account-wise is tied to it, and if I could still be paying for it and having my member FTP/webspace, I would.
    - DANmode 8mo ago
      - Does the webmail client load in 800x600? - When you load it, and there’s unread mail…does it still tell you in the most glorious way? - Do they comply with modern encryption? I haven’t exchanged email with an AOL or AIM address in 15 years, it seems!
      - mghackerlady 8mo ago
        AOLs webmailer is the same as yahoos
  - WillAdams 8mo ago
    Actually, looks like we can save a bit of postage --- looks like Archive.org has it: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_goPenPointeb91_11970149 https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_goPenPointeb91_1197014...
NetMageSCW 8mo ago
Consider picking up Alan Cooper’s (perhaps somewhat dated) UI books for some useful perspective in thinking about UIs outside the experienced computer user mindset.
ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
> or being so dumbed down and rigid to be actually usable (GNOME, to a lesser extend CDE) What do you find "dumbed down" and unusable about it? Press ctrl-alt-T, and a terminal appears. Begin typing. Press the flag key and a kind of menu thing you can type the name of apps into appears. Type "firefox" or "vscode" as appropriate, begin typing. It could hardly be made any more straightforward.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  Its not that (thats actually really good) its the application design being unsuitable for complex tasks
  - ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
    Can you give an example of that? Which applications? Which tasks?
    - mghackerlady 8mo ago
      They removed dual-pane splits in the file manager ffs. They replaced gedit with a much less capable text editor. Why are all the buttons so big? Why the padding?
      - ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
        Okay, can't say I've ever used the Gnome file manager, and while I have used gedit I haven't done so for many years and had kind of forgotten it was there.
- tapoxi 8mo ago
  they still, to this day, pretend the concept of a system tray doesn't exist. unfortunately applications expect one, so they put it behind a menu in a dropdown with a picture of a ghost so you know an app is hiding somewhere it's insane
  - 8mo ago
a1o 8mo ago
If you want some cool unusual UI, check out the HP Logic Analyzers (like the 16500A but there were others). It had a touch interface even though it had a CRT, and it had a knob for scrolling and for some alternative uses too - I think it used an encoder instead of a potentiometer but I may be misremembering. It was a really cool interface, I used it in early 2000s but it was old already by then, but it was really cool. There is a small website that documents its UI but I forgot the url.
internet101010 8mo ago
Not sure if you have experimented with it yet but COSMIC is a DE made by System76 (creators of Pop!_OS) and manages to get pretty close to what I have been seeking, which is essentially MacOS with tiling. They basically gave up on GNOME and built it in Rust from scratch. Still a few major things like HDR missing but overall it's solid. You get the tiling without the config that comes with Hyprland, with the added option of toggling between tiled or floating. Settings are minimal but they are slowly adding more when there is enough demand. IDE-style theming is done at system-level so that applications match.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  Yeah, but it has the same issue I have with elementary: it uses a toolkit nobody uses or would use for anything else
cyrc 8mo ago
For user interface designers. A sincere request to consider these old interfaces like Palm OS, IBM CUA, Mac System 6 for a modern Linux GUI. The simple black and white interface reduces cognitive load and decision fatigue. Modern UI like skeumorphic, material, drop shadows, 3d interface, aero, glass etc are high cognitive load for some individuals. A text heavy interface and GUIs that are explicit, not implicit and learnt through discovery is easier for me. A link to the an article. The picture shows that the IBM CUA works for both terminal and Windows 2.0 type GUI in simple black and white. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/from-cua-today-enduring-legacy-ibms-interface-matthew-denman-zuric https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/from-cua-today-enduring-legac...

jim180 8mo ago

would you mind sharing your library of HIGs?

mghackerlady 8mo ago
I can give a list of ones I'm studying CUA (87 and 91 versions) Awaita Breeze Material (primarily 3, but also 2 and 1) Apples HIG Microsofts HIG and Motifs HIG Some of these aren't technically HIGs and are rather "design-systems" but they all contain the commonality of trying to set up a consistent model for user-interaction in their environment

cosmic_cheese 8mo ago

I'll be keeping an eye out for your DE. For a long time now, the Linux desktop space as a whole has been rather uninspired in my opinion. A few interesting ideas have surfaced within it but failed to become popular for one reason or another, making for a rather stale environment. That's not to say that it needs to be in constant flux or to be full of radical ideas. If anything, it'd be nice to see more DEs settle into a design and feature set and chase stability, efficiency, and performance over shinies. Rather, I think it would be better if more Linux DEs were built around coherent, opinionated design philosophies that cleanly set them all apart from each other. Even if that design philosphy is just "N platform's desktop, refined to its ultimate form", it's better than the "aimless bag of features" direction that's most common.

RGamma 8mo ago
IMHO if you can afford some setup time just skipping the DE entirely is still the best option. My i3wm setup plus some scripts and services was super lean and efficient. Still buried it for reasons I can't remember, switched distro too, but when I find the time I'm eager to create a tiling WM, wayland native UI on NixOS again.
- cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
  It's a decent option for those who lean technical and like minimal WMs, but none are really my cup of tea. I've played with several and probably the one I enjoyed most was OpenBox which is the least like a minimal WM and most like a traditional floating DE, but it still wasn't what I was looking for.
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  I definitely agree, but those are hard to approach for newcomers. GNU shouldn't just be usable by those willing to put in extensive time, it should be easy to grok for newcomers as well (how else would we spread free software?). There is of course an amount of learning that might be required, as with any system, but we should balance that with the power of the software. systems like GNOME balance it by making the software near useless in exchange for the ability to be used without needing to learn or challenge anything, adopting user interface patterns designed to restrict the user as it's easier for people to instantly know how to do something. That's like trying to make a house easier to live in by locking the doors and putting up barred windows to accommodate those previously living in prison
inigyou 8mo ago
Please can we just have Windows 98 again. Not the kernel, kernels are better now, but UIs have only gone downhill from there. Win9x was peak "it just works" (as long as it doesn't crash so please, no win9x kernels)
- mghackerlady 8mo ago
  Well, this will be on a unix and it will be libre so its already better than windows, but I am heavily inspired by the 9x design language in multiple ways. Of course, things have changed and current tastes must be accommodated but there are important ideas that can be pulled from it

resters 8mo ago

great idea! would love to star a repo or otherwise follow the project.

mghackerlady 8mo ago
Still in the planning phases. I've had many ideas and am excited to share them

klaussilveira 8mo ago

I wouldn't use modern Windows as a good reference in user interface and user experience. If anything, is an experiment in user hostility.

mghackerlady 8mo ago
Certainly not a reference, rather I'm looking at what each platform does good and trying to combine them in a way that empowers the user rather than fearing them
- DANmode 8mo ago
  Where can I follow your progress?

jimmaswell 8mo ago

How is KDE like that? If you don't go out of your way to change options, you aren't "bombarded" with anything, it just works.

cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
Can only speak for myself but the problem is that with KDE there's always stuff I need to go in and change because I don't like the defaults, and then I fall into a rabbit hole of endless tweaking from which it's difficult to escape because no matter how much time I spend I can never get it to be just right.
- hypercube33 8mo ago
  Funny I feel the same about gnome. I haven't played with others enough to comment I suppose but all are missing some basic creature comfort stuff like a full tcp/up config dialog or a real fluid working app store out of the box. Distros add these but what is going on here.
  - cosmic_cheese 8mo ago
    The thing with GNOME is having to stack a bunch of extensions (most of which will only somewhat meet your needs) to get desired features, half of which will break periodically because there’s no stable extension API. GNOME and KDE sit on extreme opposite ends of the minimalist/maximalist spectrum.
mghackerlady 8mo ago
The wealth of things in the KDE settings are things people will likely never change or are things that can be tweaked but don't necessarily need to be. For example, let's look at GNOMEs settings app. It has menus and options for all the things that the average user needs (network settings, mouse and display options, etc.) but leaves out, for example, things that people need to change for specific workflows (like the option to have focus follow the mouse). A settings app should let the user set things needed for the functions of a computer to work properly while separating deeper level customization for those who want it. I think emacs does a very good job at this. You can configure most of the settings people need to be productive in a text editor from the menu bar while leaving the extremely rich customization of emacs to the options menu and elisp config files

relium 8mo ago

The best book I've ever read on the topic was the classic Mac OS Human Interface Guidelines. I still recommend them even though some of the specifics are out-of-date. https://dev.os9.ca/techpubs/mac/pdf/HIGuidelines.pdf https://dev.os9.ca/techpubs/mac/pdf/HIGuidelines.pdf

mghackerlady 8mo ago
It's on my list as well. I really appreciate the MacOS handles progressive disclosure, something most environments either get wrong or misunderstand (caugh caugh GNOME caugh caugh) ETA: One thing I forgot to mention is how playful MacOS was (and to an extent still is). They recognised that the easiest way to learn something is by messing with it and seeing what happens. It also caused it to be very approachable through what I like to call 'professional unprofessionalism'. It wasn't afraid to use silly metaphors or graphics to get a point across without crossing the line into seeming out of place in a work environment or feeling infantilising
- Lammy 8mo ago
  Needs moar Copland (R.I.P.) https://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/developer/Copland/D11E4_19960613/Human_Interface_Toolbox_19960430.pdf https://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/mac/developer/Copland/D11E4_...
  - msephton 8mo ago
    All* the HIG at https://github.com/gingerbeardman/apple-human-interface-guidelines https://github.com/gingerbeardman/apple-human-interface-guid... *as many as we have found
krickelkrackel 8mo ago
I'd want to add "Designing Interactions" by Bill Moggridge (IDEO, designer of the first 'laptop' computer): https://www.amazon.com/-/en/Designing-Interactions-Press-Bill-Moggridge/dp/0262134748 https://www.amazon.com/-/en/Designing-Interactions-Press-Bil...
8mo ago

hypercube33 8mo ago

If you're looking at Windows peak was like Win2000

mghackerlady 8mo ago
I agree to an extent. I have some problems with it but I appreciate the way it approached new users. Instead of instantly trying to accommodate them it instead presented itself to the user in ways that let the user learn, sometimes the hard way.
NetMageSCW 8mo ago
Nah - peak was Windows 7.

cpeterso 8mo ago

If you haven't already, check out Microsoft's "The Windows® 95 User Interface: A Case Study in Usability Engineering" report summarizing some of the Windows 95 designers' user research: https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/238386.238611 https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/238386.238611

mghackerlady 8mo ago
I read it and it partially inspired the entire project. It made me realise how inaccessible modern design is despite being held up as best in class and easy to use

WillAdams 8mo ago

If you want a photocopy of the Go Corp. PenPoint UI guidelines let me know and I'll see if I can dig out a copy from a binder which I got w/ an SDK I purchased years ago --- I really miss PenPoint, and always thought it was one of the better UI environments. contact info is my user name here at aol.com

mghackerlady 8mo ago
1) I'll be sure to reach out 2) You still use AOL? Is it just you've had it long enough to not want to switch or do you actively choose to use it for some reason I might've missed?
- WillAdams 8mo ago
  1. I'll start looking 2. Yes, I was a charter member (who unfortunately, was broke when they offered the chance to buy stock), and it's easy to remember, and everything online account-wise is tied to it, and if I could still be paying for it and having my member FTP/webspace, I would.
  - DANmode 8mo ago
    - Does the webmail client load in 800x600? - When you load it, and there’s unread mail…does it still tell you in the most glorious way? - Do they comply with modern encryption? I haven’t exchanged email with an AOL or AIM address in 15 years, it seems!
    - mghackerlady 8mo ago
      AOLs webmailer is the same as yahoos
- WillAdams 8mo ago
  Actually, looks like we can save a bit of postage --- looks like Archive.org has it: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_goPenPointeb91_11970149 https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_goPenPointeb91_1197014...

NetMageSCW 8mo ago

Consider picking up Alan Cooper’s (perhaps somewhat dated) UI books for some useful perspective in thinking about UIs outside the experienced computer user mindset.

ErroneousBosh 8mo ago

> or being so dumbed down and rigid to be actually usable (GNOME, to a lesser extend CDE) What do you find "dumbed down" and unusable about it? Press ctrl-alt-T, and a terminal appears. Begin typing. Press the flag key and a kind of menu thing you can type the name of apps into appears. Type "firefox" or "vscode" as appropriate, begin typing. It could hardly be made any more straightforward.

mghackerlady 8mo ago
Its not that (thats actually really good) its the application design being unsuitable for complex tasks
- ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
  Can you give an example of that? Which applications? Which tasks?
  - mghackerlady 8mo ago
    They removed dual-pane splits in the file manager ffs. They replaced gedit with a much less capable text editor. Why are all the buttons so big? Why the padding?
    - ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
      Okay, can't say I've ever used the Gnome file manager, and while I have used gedit I haven't done so for many years and had kind of forgotten it was there.
tapoxi 8mo ago
they still, to this day, pretend the concept of a system tray doesn't exist. unfortunately applications expect one, so they put it behind a menu in a dropdown with a picture of a ghost so you know an app is hiding somewhere it's insane
- 8mo ago

a1o 8mo ago

If you want some cool unusual UI, check out the HP Logic Analyzers (like the 16500A but there were others). It had a touch interface even though it had a CRT, and it had a knob for scrolling and for some alternative uses too - I think it used an encoder instead of a potentiometer but I may be misremembering. It was a really cool interface, I used it in early 2000s but it was old already by then, but it was really cool. There is a small website that documents its UI but I forgot the url.

internet101010 8mo ago

Not sure if you have experimented with it yet but COSMIC is a DE made by System76 (creators of Pop!_OS) and manages to get pretty close to what I have been seeking, which is essentially MacOS with tiling. They basically gave up on GNOME and built it in Rust from scratch. Still a few major things like HDR missing but overall it's solid. You get the tiling without the config that comes with Hyprland, with the added option of toggling between tiled or floating. Settings are minimal but they are slowly adding more when there is enough demand. IDE-style theming is done at system-level so that applications match.

mghackerlady 8mo ago
Yeah, but it has the same issue I have with elementary: it uses a toolkit nobody uses or would use for anything else

cyrc 8mo ago

For user interface designers. A sincere request to consider these old interfaces like Palm OS, IBM CUA, Mac System 6 for a modern Linux GUI. The simple black and white interface reduces cognitive load and decision fatigue. Modern UI like skeumorphic, material, drop shadows, 3d interface, aero, glass etc are high cognitive load for some individuals. A text heavy interface and GUIs that are explicit, not implicit and learnt through discovery is easier for me. A link to the an article. The picture shows that the IBM CUA works for both terminal and Windows 2.0 type GUI in simple black and white. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/from-cua-today-enduring-legacy-ibms-interface-matthew-denman-zuric https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/from-cua-today-enduring-legac...