5 ms·

> There seems to be some kind of psychosis around it being the next oil There's a very well financed propaganda campaign.

pjc50 8mo ago
Yes, it's not the new oil, it's the same oil in "green" packaging. Plus some comforting lies about carbon capture.
- aunty_helen 8mo ago
  Even if it was fully green, you can’t run an electrolysis system from home. So you have to buy it, so there’s a market and an expensive solution. Electricity comes out the wall.
  - thrownthatway 8mo ago
    What do you mean? You can run electrolysis from a cup.
    - aunty_helen 8mo ago
      I know, I have one of those weird H shaped flasks with the plat electrodes. I also have a gas bbq, yet couldn't fill up a LNG car at my house. Maybe there's something more to it than just making small amounts of room temperature / pressure H2.
    - MagicMoonlight 8mo ago
      You can’t make and store bulk hydrogen at home
      - CamperBob2 8mo ago
        You're not my HOA
      - thrownthatway 8mo ago
        You can’t. I’m willing to give it a go. I’ve got the excess solar from the rooftop solar panels, the electrical and electronic knowledge, and the gas fitter and metal fabrication experience. I have an oil free air compressor, and anyone can by a helium based cryo-cooler. I have an account with an industrial gas supplier. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. If Nile Red hasn’t blown his lab up by the time I publish this comment, I reckon I stand a chance.
        KennyBlanken 8mo ago
        Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50% and at worse half that. You have the horrendous efficiency of electrolysis and then the equally bad efficiency in the fuel cell. Efficiency pumping your excess solar into the EV itself is more like 80-85%, most of which is loss in the electronics, not the battery - those typically have a coulombic efficiency of over 95%. Hydrogen a boondoggle. It's not nearly as stupid as making ethanol from corn (which is an energy-negative process) but it's close. Also, "gas fitter and metal fabrication" experience isn't worth anything unless it was hydrogen-specific. It is far leakier than natural gas/propane. One of the biggest hassles of a hydrogen fuel chain is that the stuff leaks through everything.
        Ray20 8mo ago
        > Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50% In fact, even this level of efficiency may be sufficient. Solar panels are so cheap that if we had affordable, long-term energy storage options, even with such efficiency, we would have completely abandoned fossil fuels. But, unfortunately, storing hydrogen is difficult and dangerous. It is not like natural gas. > It's not nearly as stupid as making ethanol from corn (which is an energy-negative process) but it's close. Ethanol is produced from corn not for energy purposes, but for food security. It's like a placeholder for real corn so that if there's a crop failure for a couple of years, the low-iq idiots who think it's stupid to make ethanol from corn don't starve to death.
        mrks_hy 8mo ago
        > Ethanol is produced from corn not for energy purposes, but for food security Source? First time I read this, might make sense. Although I don't see how this corn should be unaffected by crop failure if all other corn harvests failed.
  - crimsonnoodle58 8mo ago
    > Electricity comes out the wall. Which unless you have solar, you are paying for. Even if you have solar, you are paying off the panels, batteries and inverter/chargers over a period of time. Nothing is free.
KennyBlanken 8mo ago
Same with nuclear. The most expensive form of electricity generation there is. No grid operator wants to touch it, but the nuclear industry has been very busy lobbying congress and both the current and last administration.
- wisplike 8mo ago
  Nuclear is incredibly energy dense, can be stockpiled for a long time and is extremely safe. Yes its expensive but its one those industries any serious nation needs to subsidise for the energy security it offers and the countless high skill jobs it fosters.
  - fuzzfactor 8mo ago
    Well, no it's never been extremely safe by any stretch of the imagination. That's just an extreme interpretation of the way it's not as extremely unsafe as it could be. Plus at the rate it's being addressed by a few enthusiasts, it could be getting remarkably safer, maybe even in one person's lifetime someday. Developments may be positive but it makes the most sense to be realistic and avoid the completely unfounded hype involved. Plus when nuclear works best the high-skill jobs resulting have to be as non-countless as possible, that's one of the big factors which might someday allow the economics to be less unfavorable.
    - margalabargala 8mo ago
      It's extremely safe, except in the event of a black swan event, in which case it becomes extremely unsafe. This is compared to, for example, a coal plant, which is quite unsafe to be near constantly, all the time.
      - fuzzfactor 8mo ago
        Pull back from the extremes a little bit and it's an excellent synopsis. Keep in mind an off-white swan can be pretty bad too :) The main thing about such uncommon or even unlkely events, is that nobody knows what to do about them.

pjc50 8mo ago

Yes, it's not the new oil, it's the same oil in "green" packaging. Plus some comforting lies about carbon capture.

aunty_helen 8mo ago
Even if it was fully green, you can’t run an electrolysis system from home. So you have to buy it, so there’s a market and an expensive solution. Electricity comes out the wall.
- thrownthatway 8mo ago
  What do you mean? You can run electrolysis from a cup.
  - aunty_helen 8mo ago
    I know, I have one of those weird H shaped flasks with the plat electrodes. I also have a gas bbq, yet couldn't fill up a LNG car at my house. Maybe there's something more to it than just making small amounts of room temperature / pressure H2.
  - MagicMoonlight 8mo ago
    You can’t make and store bulk hydrogen at home
    - CamperBob2 8mo ago
      You're not my HOA
    - thrownthatway 8mo ago
      You can’t. I’m willing to give it a go. I’ve got the excess solar from the rooftop solar panels, the electrical and electronic knowledge, and the gas fitter and metal fabrication experience. I have an oil free air compressor, and anyone can by a helium based cryo-cooler. I have an account with an industrial gas supplier. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. If Nile Red hasn’t blown his lab up by the time I publish this comment, I reckon I stand a chance.
      - KennyBlanken 8mo ago
        Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50% and at worse half that. You have the horrendous efficiency of electrolysis and then the equally bad efficiency in the fuel cell. Efficiency pumping your excess solar into the EV itself is more like 80-85%, most of which is loss in the electronics, not the battery - those typically have a coulombic efficiency of over 95%. Hydrogen a boondoggle. It's not nearly as stupid as making ethanol from corn (which is an energy-negative process) but it's close. Also, "gas fitter and metal fabrication" experience isn't worth anything unless it was hydrogen-specific. It is far leakier than natural gas/propane. One of the biggest hassles of a hydrogen fuel chain is that the stuff leaks through everything.
        Ray20 8mo ago
        > Round trip efficiency of hydrogen is at best 50% In fact, even this level of efficiency may be sufficient. Solar panels are so cheap that if we had affordable, long-term energy storage options, even with such efficiency, we would have completely abandoned fossil fuels. But, unfortunately, storing hydrogen is difficult and dangerous. It is not like natural gas. > It's not nearly as stupid as making ethanol from corn (which is an energy-negative process) but it's close. Ethanol is produced from corn not for energy purposes, but for food security. It's like a placeholder for real corn so that if there's a crop failure for a couple of years, the low-iq idiots who think it's stupid to make ethanol from corn don't starve to death.
        mrks_hy 8mo ago
        > Ethanol is produced from corn not for energy purposes, but for food security Source? First time I read this, might make sense. Although I don't see how this corn should be unaffected by crop failure if all other corn harvests failed.
- crimsonnoodle58 8mo ago
  > Electricity comes out the wall. Which unless you have solar, you are paying for. Even if you have solar, you are paying off the panels, batteries and inverter/chargers over a period of time. Nothing is free.

KennyBlanken 8mo ago

Same with nuclear. The most expensive form of electricity generation there is. No grid operator wants to touch it, but the nuclear industry has been very busy lobbying congress and both the current and last administration.

wisplike 8mo ago
Nuclear is incredibly energy dense, can be stockpiled for a long time and is extremely safe. Yes its expensive but its one those industries any serious nation needs to subsidise for the energy security it offers and the countless high skill jobs it fosters.
- fuzzfactor 8mo ago
  Well, no it's never been extremely safe by any stretch of the imagination. That's just an extreme interpretation of the way it's not as extremely unsafe as it could be. Plus at the rate it's being addressed by a few enthusiasts, it could be getting remarkably safer, maybe even in one person's lifetime someday. Developments may be positive but it makes the most sense to be realistic and avoid the completely unfounded hype involved. Plus when nuclear works best the high-skill jobs resulting have to be as non-countless as possible, that's one of the big factors which might someday allow the economics to be less unfavorable.
  - margalabargala 8mo ago
    It's extremely safe, except in the event of a black swan event, in which case it becomes extremely unsafe. This is compared to, for example, a coal plant, which is quite unsafe to be near constantly, all the time.
    - fuzzfactor 8mo ago
      Pull back from the extremes a little bit and it's an excellent synopsis. Keep in mind an off-white swan can be pretty bad too :) The main thing about such uncommon or even unlkely events, is that nobody knows what to do about them.