7 ms·
99% of adults over 40 have shoulder "abnormalities" on an MRI, study finds
- Flavius 9mo agoYou call it "abnormality", I call it evolution. We are not the same.
- dylan604 9mo agoHow many generations of constant bent over posture staring at a device before that's just built into the species?
- plufz 9mo agoIm not sure people with bad posture get more offspring than others. :)
- dylan604 9mo agoThe pickins are getting slim though. I don't know anyone in their 20s that doesn't sit hunched over staring at a screen for a large portion of their day while stipulating I don't know any where near all 20 somethings. Just one person's observations
- mgiampapa 9mo agoIf I learned anything at Buy N Large University, AR screens in eyeware may be huge.
- kbelder 9mo agoWho's the freak without an abnormality?
- diydsp 9mo agoIm guessing certain gym rats who also dont desk/computer work?
- laughing_man 9mo agoMore likely someone who's been in a coma for the last ten years.
- elzbardico 9mo agoI would strongly bet against gym rats not having some shoulder abnormality. If anything, I'd expect them to have more issues with their tendons and ligaments.
- b65e8bee43c2ed0 9mo agoyeah. and joints, especially. I lost some wrist mobility during my boxing years and it never came back, even though I was in my early 20's when I had quit.
- deadbabe 9mo agoWhy didn’t you wrap up
- b65e8bee43c2ed0 9mo agowraps won't save your knuckles/wrists/elbows from the damage caused by repeated high-force impacts, and the cartilage only has to heal wrong once for a lifetime of mild discomfort.
- tomjakubowski 9mo agoI mean, boxing is, by design, much more violent and higher impact than most other gym exercises.
- malfist 9mo agoI'd bet they probably have some abnormality too, but I don't think I'd expect them to have more issues. There's a lot talked about people getting injured in the gym, but people get injured a lot outside the gym, just for some reason people really fixate on in the gym injuries. There's lots of research that indicates that frequent strength training significantly reduces your risk of injury in day to day activities, especially later in life. If I can deadlift 500 pounds, I'm not going to get injured lifting 100 pounds, but your general population could. If I've got 3 inches of muscle around my hips and increased bone density from resistance training, I'm not going to break my hip when I trip. "Strong people are harder to kill" -Mark Rippetoe
- bogzz 9mo agoOh hey it's me, I'm the conformist. Stop picking on me.
- int27h-tsr 9mo agoA statistical error. All humans are slightly asymmetrical. Most shoulder problems begin at foot and/or hip though.
- malfist 9mo agoMy labrum was torn from multiple shoulder dislocations. I don't think that began at my foot or hip.
- int27h-tsr 9mo agoYou are special, aincha, we are so lucky to have you as the center of the universe! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluctuating_asymmetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluctuating_asymmetry https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=1158 https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content?ContentT... and so on.
- int27h-tsr 9mo agolooks like reddit mob found out about this board... oh well.
- kylestlb 9mo agoSteph Curry
- skizm 9mo agoHe’s getting old, but not over 40 yet.
- TuringNYC 9mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twilight_Zone,_1959) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_the_Beholder_(The_Twili...
- abe94 9mo agorelated discussion here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47008607 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47008607
- tiahura 9mo agoEven though they never have any neck pain, many shoulder issues are actually caused by pinched nerves in the cervical spine.
- mghackerlady 9mo agoIf 99% of adults have an abnormality, it ceases to be abnormal regardless of its effects
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- francisofascii 9mo agoonly if the abnormality is in the same spot
- ASalazarMX 9mo ago"1% of adults over 40 have abnormally normal shoulders" But seriously, the article addressed that > The authors argue that the findings suggest clinicians should rethink MRI findings, changing not just how they’re used, but also how they’re explained to patients. The language in particular should change given that “abnormalities” are ubiquitous—thus normal—and shouldn’t be described in terms that indicate a need for repair, like “tear.”
- Insanity 9mo agoThat's actually what the article points out. But I do think the language of normal vs abnormal obfuscates some of the intent. It's a 'deviation from healthy baseline' that they're talking about, and there are multiple such deviations in the grouped 'anomalies'. From the article: The language in particular should change given that “abnormalities” are ubiquitous—thus normal—and shouldn’t be described in terms that indicate a need for repair, like “tear.”
- brandall10 9mo agoRight, it's clearly aging related deterioration. It's like saying facial wrinkles are an abnormality.
- cies 9mo agoDunno man. When enough people overweight, 1-2 alcoholic drink become healthy (alcohol is a blood thinner): this happened, but as we know now it's not true.
- racl101 9mo agoMost of my shoulder issues are sleep related since I sleep on my side. Getting a body pillow system, was costly but kinda worth it. Helps with shoulder and GERD. Only issue is that it's kinda warm and I like to sleep cool.
- ASalazarMX 9mo ago> was costly but kinda worth it This doesn't inspire confidence, but I guess any improvement that mitigates pain is nice.
- racl101 9mo agoI mean, not expensive like seeing a specialist expensive, but more expensive than getting an extra pillow at Walmart. I'm talking $400 USD.
- mgiampapa 9mo agoThe issue with those inclined pillows with the arm hole in them is that they can be a really hard angle for a side sleeper to be at. It makes my back and hips hurt way worse than my shoulder.
- dralley 9mo agoAny recommendations? I have GERD and generally sleep on my back, which helps but isn't perfect.
- lordofgibbons 9mo agoYou can try raising the head part of the bed by 5 - 6 or so inches using wood blocks. The doctor recommended it to me. It's not perfect, but has really helped me!
- redact207 9mo agoSame here, it helped a lot. Also don't eat a big meal and go straight to bed. Aim for an earlier dinner.
- radicalbyte 9mo agoI have three kids and they've messed up my dominant schoulder (left).
- p00dles 9mo agoFrom walking around holding them with your left arm when they were babies, or from something else?
- dhaivat 9mo agonot OP but - walking, carrying, holding, being pulled in random directions, catching kids when they jump at you from unexpected places, kids using your arms to practice tug-of-war/rock-climbing, pushing (empty) stroller with one hand, and carrying kid with other....
- radicalbyte 9mo agoWalking/carrying at all crazy hours once they were >30kg. Holding 40kg of sick kid around is fun. Ours all refused to sit in the stroller very early which is what made it so much worse (our oldest was two, the other two refused point blank the second they could walk).
- darth_avocado 9mo agoI have three dogs and they’ve messed up my dominant shoulder, back and leg
- Glyptodon 9mo agoI don't know what causes it, but even without major issues I think a lot of people continually loose range of motion in the shoulder as they age. So this doesn't surprise me.
- oarfish 9mo agoMost people don't exercise to preserve muscle mass and function and especially don't do full range of motion resistance training, most of this is probably preventable.
- baxtr 9mo agoWhat about the other 1%? I feel for them.
- TacticalCoder 9mo ago[flagged]
- laurex 9mo agoGiven that most commenters do not seem to have read the article perhaps the headline could be more explicit about 'MRIs find "abnormalities" but they seem to have no relationship to actual health problems"
- nickjj 9mo agoDo they define if this relates to anything noticeable in your day to day? For example, I can put my right hand above my shoulder and left hand near my lower back and easily connect both hands behind my back with fully interlocked fingers by converging in the middle. They reach to the other hand's palm. But I can only barely touch my fingers with both hands if I switch it up so my left hand is up top. I have no pain or day to day mobility issues but something is lopsided. Is that what they consider abnormal?
- SoftTalker 9mo agoI'd consider it abnormal that you can do that; I can't get my fingertips within a foot of each other doing that. I'm nearly 60 but I don't know if I could ever do that. You have good mobility IMO.
- zihotki 9mo agoLimited range of motion on one side could cause some deviations in scapulohumeral rhythm, so your force application won't be optimal and may cause injuries, or even cause uneveness and side effects in gait cycle. And with time it tends to get worse since the body would be trying to adopt to execute the function. But suboptimal force application eventually would cause joint injuries if a convex (humerus) is rolling without gliding or vice versa or doing it in suboptimal rhythm. That's my personal take, not a doctor, study kinesiology as a hobby. All such minor mobility issues could be addressed by body conditioning excercises including simple isolated mobility drills to learn range of motion of joints.
- daringrain32781 9mo agoReading this title made me sit up in my chair.
- downrightmike 9mo ago100% of all things that do not asexually reproduce are mutants
- lysace 9mo agoEvolution never really bothered with the wellbeing of 40+ year olds.
- deadbabe 9mo agoOddly enough, I think now it will. Because there is a whole generation of people having kids later, some first time parents even in their 40s. Naturally this should mean they produce offspring that over time is also able to easily reproduce in their 40s. Teen pregnancy is way down, and late pregnancies are replacing it.
- 0x1ch 9mo agoJust hit my mid twenties. Want to say I started having some shoulder issues around 20 years old. Although correlation =! causation, I largely think this is because of my lifelong computer usage and PC gaming. It doesn't bother me all the time, but every few months something will change up and it comes back. Surprisingly, my wrists and hands are completely fine, no carpal tunnel or anything similar.
- SoftTalker 9mo agoYes, sitting slightly hunched up with your hands in front of you on a keyboard for 8-10 hours a day will screw up your shoulder mobility over time.
- 0x1ch 9mo agoI think using a standing desk has really helped. I don't use mine at work often, but I generally am standing when I'm at home and it really does feel like it has improved my shoulder issues and posture.
- garbawarb 9mo agoInteresting. What happens at 40 to make MRIs no longer accurate?
- azan_ 9mo agoWhy do you think it's inaccurate?
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- tptacek 9mo agoClosely related to a huge problem in American health care --- overprescription, particularly of surgical procedure. There's evidence that some widespread classes of surgical intervention --- shoulder "impingement" in particular --- have outcomes no better than placebos in controlled trials where people literally get placebo incisions.
- kylestlb 9mo agoBest thing a doctor ever told me was "you CAN get imaging done, but I'd like to warn you that there is a near-certainty we'd find something wrong with your shoulder and your back".
- frankzander 9mo agogot a similar advice ... "in your age we find almost every time something abnormal"
- hxbdg 9mo ago[dead]
- tracerbulletx 9mo agoI have a giant metal plate in mine which I guess is kindof abnormal.
- sproketboy 9mo ago[dead]
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- a1ff00 9mo agoI’m over 40. Barely. But, over 40 nonetheless. I grew up in front of a PC as early as 6. I used it for everything. I grew up with it, on the internet as it was blossoming, and escaped through it as a means to escape reality, bullying, abusive household… you name it, from early Heat.net/mplay.net days, early mIRC CS alpha/beta/1.6 days, ICQ, MSN, VBasic coding, learning C/C++, to just about doing everything on a computer. Hell, I'm in the career I'm in because of it. I escaped and escaped hard. If I couldn’t access it at home, I’d bike to the library and access it, or joined the computer club in HS just so I had another one I could easily hop on. All hours of the day, you name it. I even bumped into some wild early AOL Chat Room days that I'm pretty sure were some kind of a ring, but I digress. I remember over the years comments like, “you look like you watch too much TV”. I barely watched TV. Or, “why are your shoulders always raised?”. I always said I'm carrying a heavy backpack with all my books. Or, “what’s wrong with your right neck?”, or “why are you corkscrewing to the left”. You name it. I just shrugged it off. As the years went on, my jaw started to hurt, my right rotator cuff would crack all the time, my right ab snapped, my obliques weakened, my right hips started to fail, I don’t think I have a right scapula at this point, my molars no longer touched, my head jetted forward, my tongue tied, my lower jaw went to the left, my breathing worsened, it became shallow and short, my right-diaphragm hurts to inhale… I always blamed it on poor genetics, or something else, or "some accident I guess I don't remember". It wasn’t until I hit 39 when it all kind of clicked. It’s years of using a god damn mouse. Forward, right, back, left, circle motions, rinse and repeat, 12+ hours a day. In fact, even to this day I'm unable to use a mouse for more than 5 hours a day before the flares start. It's a numb pain. A 3/10 discomfort, but it's chronic. I’m unable to sleep more than 4 hours a day without waking up with excruciating pain down my right shoulder and neck, unable to feel a large part of my right side, and the pain is getting worse by the day. Ive done PT, chiro, acupuncture, personal trainer, you name it. THOUSANDS of dollars to no avail. In fact, I tried to do the 2000 pushup challenge for February (maybe a Canadian thing?) and I had to stop after 10 days due to INSANE right-shoulder flare-up. Where’m I going with this? Log off people. Stretch. Do exercise. Something before it’s too late. I’m pretty sure we’re going to see more and more of “millennial” style abuse and neglect rear its ugly head.
- adrian_b 9mo agoSome years ago, I also started to have problems due to mouse use. I experimented with alternative pointing devices. For a few years I have used trackballs. The change from mouse to trackball was good, but that still was not an optimum pointing device. Eventually I have settled on replacing mice with small graphic tablets (Wacom Intuos S), configured in the "Relative" mode, instead of their default "Absolute" mode. The tablet is not bigger than a traditional mouse pad, so it does not take more space on the desk. In this mode the tablets behave exactly like mice, but they are much more comfortable and also faster and more accurate. The comfort is due to the fact that you hold the extremely light stylus in a natural hand position and moving it to reach any point on the screen is instantaneous and effortless (even when only the fingers are used, without moving the hand). Moreover, touching the tablet instead of left click is also a more natural motion. The stylus is so light that I can also touch-type while keeping it between fingers, which speeds up the transitions between keyboard and pointing device, in comparison with a mouse that must be grabbed first. Thus all my hand and arm problems have disappeared, regardless how many hours per day I use the pointing device.
- eudamoniac 9mo agoIt's much the same with degenerative changes in the spine. Almost every adult will have such changes and they do not seem to correlate with symptoms. Everyone's back is screwed up and only some people get back pain, and only sometimes in the same areas as the screwed up areas.
- oarfish 9mo ago> Everyone's back is screwed up its bad framing to label this as "degenerative" and "screwed up" as nowadays we learn that there are probably more age-related. As you say, they correlate very poorly with pain.
- KevinMS 9mo agoDidn't they find something similar for herniated disc a while back? Meaning they were treating people for herniated discs with back pain and then eventually figured out that lots of people with no pain also had herniated discs?