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> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are s

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are scrambling right now is because Starlink just shut off all of Russia. Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. And while all of Europe is happy to see Russia go away, they are concerned that the same can be done to them at a whim by any number of American companies. So they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American including software providers like Microsoft 360. As for credit cards, it is not as if there is something intrinsically American in credit card processing. They can just as easily create a new system that uses the same protocols as Visa and Mastercard. Having your entire economy dependent on a company you don't control in a country you don't control was considered acceptable for as long as a concept of "allies" existed. That is not the world we are living in right now.

pennaMan 9mo ago
> they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American They're the same bright minds that ensured no alternatives could naturally come out of the European market trough relentless bureaucratic central planning. I have zero hopes of a good outcome
- maigret 9mo ago
  Actually European integration the last 30 years has been pretty remarkable. In the past, not even electric plugs were compatible. But the EU is not a country. A lot of the inefficiencies are actually features sought by key members to protect their own local incumbents.
  - Saline9515 9mo ago
    Your best example of European integration is electric plugs?
    - georgeecollins 9mo ago
      USB-C!
    - notrealyme123 9mo ago
      How about tap water has to be drinkable in every EU country
      - Saline9515 9mo ago
        Many non-eu countries have drinkable tap water, not sure how representative of "integration" this rule is.
        donkeybeer 9mo ago
        And many non eu don't have. I am neutral on the eu topic but you are confused. If this eu thing can mandate certain water standards or expel a country and or withhold common funds, that's a very different thing from seeing "some" non eu countries having water.
    - usr1106 9mo ago
      Money transfers between bank accounts for no extra fees (well, that's limited to the Euro, so a couple of countries chose to stay outside). Mobile phone usage for no extra fees all over EU (some limitations, but typically not relevant for the average trip). B2B the integration has even bigger impact. I don't think eletric plugs are even regulated. British plugs never changed and they were not an argument in Brexit.
      - Saline9515 9mo ago
        All of those things don't require having a supranational body who you relinquish large parts of your sovereignty to.
        fransje26 9mo ago
        Which is why bank to bank transfers are so easy in the US.
- IshKebab 9mo ago
  It isn't bureaucracy that has prevented any alternatives emerging; it's network effects. Mastercard and Visa have a solid duopoly.
YarickR2 9mo ago
> Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. What are you smoking ..err.. any source to your claim ? (Which is between bizarre and just plain wrong).
abcdefg12 9mo ago
Never mind russians putting starlinks on flying bombs to blow up Ukrainians. But those poor Russian Internet users you invented. While it’s jailable offense in russia to own starlink.
- fhdkweig 9mo ago
  I think you misunderstood, I do not pity them at all. I am just pointing out it is bad strategy to be dependent on foreign potentially-hostile technology. In particular, I heard this through Mallen Baker at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACzkuSFzT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACzkuSFzT4
hkpack 9mo ago
> Starlink just shut off all of Russia What are you talking about? Starlink never worked in russia. It worked in Ukraine, and it was shutdown in Ukraine by using a white list for which any Ukrainian can easily apply. The goal was to shutdown Starlink usage by russian drones in Ukraine and by anyone on the occupied Ukrainian territories.
varjag 9mo ago
Starlink was never available in Russia due to the sanctions regime. It's only use by Russians was via grey import terminals on the frontline in Ukraine (made possible due to complications of geofencing).
- fhdkweig 9mo ago
  I guess I was misunderstanding. I thought that Starlink was deliberately ignoring the sanctions because they were able to shut it off real quick once Musk got that tweet https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2016221397396168995 https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2016221397396168995
  - nicwilson 9mo ago
    You might be thinking of Ubiquiti, who were exposed as blind eyeing the sanctions
  - varjag 9mo ago
    It wasn't easy to geofence due to fluid nature of the frontline and lack of single official supply channel to Ukraine. A huge part of Ukrainian terminals were also procured abroad by volunteers. However a recent development was Russian use of terminals on attack drones. Out of that Starlink was able to block terminals with certain velocity (and possibly bearing) in the region. In addition Ukraine got around to making internal registry of all frontline terminal allowing Starlink to white-list. So no it was a bit more than a tweet involved.
  - ralfd 9mo ago
    You did misunderstand: https://x.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/2017932529882296706 https://x.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/2017932529882296706 SpaceX worked with Ukraine together to register authorized Starlinks. You obviously can’t simply geo-fence because the usage is not in Russia, but Russian troops using it in Ukraine. And you can’t simply blacklist Russian use, because lots of devices with legitimate Ukrainian use cases were imported in privatly or by third party. That is why legitimate Ukrainian devices must now be cumbersomely whitelisted.
grishka 9mo ago
> a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access What you're saying is just plain false. No one has ever used Starlink in Russia. It doesn't even work here. It never did. Russian troops were using Starlink on Ukrainian territory, that's what was shut off.
poilcn 9mo ago
What are you talking about, 92% of Russian population has access to internet via landlines, the government subsidised building all the infustructre. The internet access is one of the cheapest in the world($5-10 per month for 100-500mbit/s), starlink with its $50-120 price tag is not affordable at all, ignoring the fact it doesn't even work here
- N_Lens 9mo ago
  Misinformation on HN? Well, I never!
inemesitaffia 8mo ago
Where did you get "4 years"? And what makes you think people in Russia were using the service?

pennaMan 9mo ago

> they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American They're the same bright minds that ensured no alternatives could naturally come out of the European market trough relentless bureaucratic central planning. I have zero hopes of a good outcome

maigret 9mo ago
Actually European integration the last 30 years has been pretty remarkable. In the past, not even electric plugs were compatible. But the EU is not a country. A lot of the inefficiencies are actually features sought by key members to protect their own local incumbents.
- Saline9515 9mo ago
  Your best example of European integration is electric plugs?
  - georgeecollins 9mo ago
    USB-C!
  - notrealyme123 9mo ago
    How about tap water has to be drinkable in every EU country
    - Saline9515 9mo ago
      Many non-eu countries have drinkable tap water, not sure how representative of "integration" this rule is.
      - donkeybeer 9mo ago
        And many non eu don't have. I am neutral on the eu topic but you are confused. If this eu thing can mandate certain water standards or expel a country and or withhold common funds, that's a very different thing from seeing "some" non eu countries having water.
  - usr1106 9mo ago
    Money transfers between bank accounts for no extra fees (well, that's limited to the Euro, so a couple of countries chose to stay outside). Mobile phone usage for no extra fees all over EU (some limitations, but typically not relevant for the average trip). B2B the integration has even bigger impact. I don't think eletric plugs are even regulated. British plugs never changed and they were not an argument in Brexit.
    - Saline9515 9mo ago
      All of those things don't require having a supranational body who you relinquish large parts of your sovereignty to.
      - fransje26 9mo ago
        Which is why bank to bank transfers are so easy in the US.
IshKebab 9mo ago
It isn't bureaucracy that has prevented any alternatives emerging; it's network effects. Mastercard and Visa have a solid duopoly.

YarickR2 9mo ago

> Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. What are you smoking ..err.. any source to your claim ? (Which is between bizarre and just plain wrong).

abcdefg12 9mo ago

Never mind russians putting starlinks on flying bombs to blow up Ukrainians. But those poor Russian Internet users you invented. While it’s jailable offense in russia to own starlink.

fhdkweig 9mo ago
I think you misunderstood, I do not pity them at all. I am just pointing out it is bad strategy to be dependent on foreign potentially-hostile technology. In particular, I heard this through Mallen Baker at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACzkuSFzT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACzkuSFzT4

hkpack 9mo ago

> Starlink just shut off all of Russia What are you talking about? Starlink never worked in russia. It worked in Ukraine, and it was shutdown in Ukraine by using a white list for which any Ukrainian can easily apply. The goal was to shutdown Starlink usage by russian drones in Ukraine and by anyone on the occupied Ukrainian territories.

varjag 9mo ago

Starlink was never available in Russia due to the sanctions regime. It's only use by Russians was via grey import terminals on the frontline in Ukraine (made possible due to complications of geofencing).

fhdkweig 9mo ago
I guess I was misunderstanding. I thought that Starlink was deliberately ignoring the sanctions because they were able to shut it off real quick once Musk got that tweet https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2016221397396168995 https://x.com/sikorskiradek/status/2016221397396168995
- nicwilson 9mo ago
  You might be thinking of Ubiquiti, who were exposed as blind eyeing the sanctions
- varjag 9mo ago
  It wasn't easy to geofence due to fluid nature of the frontline and lack of single official supply channel to Ukraine. A huge part of Ukrainian terminals were also procured abroad by volunteers. However a recent development was Russian use of terminals on attack drones. Out of that Starlink was able to block terminals with certain velocity (and possibly bearing) in the region. In addition Ukraine got around to making internal registry of all frontline terminal allowing Starlink to white-list. So no it was a bit more than a tweet involved.
- ralfd 9mo ago
  You did misunderstand: https://x.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/2017932529882296706 https://x.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/2017932529882296706 SpaceX worked with Ukraine together to register authorized Starlinks. You obviously can’t simply geo-fence because the usage is not in Russia, but Russian troops using it in Ukraine. And you can’t simply blacklist Russian use, because lots of devices with legitimate Ukrainian use cases were imported in privatly or by third party. That is why legitimate Ukrainian devices must now be cumbersomely whitelisted.

grishka 9mo ago

> a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access What you're saying is just plain false. No one has ever used Starlink in Russia. It doesn't even work here. It never did. Russian troops were using Starlink on Ukrainian territory, that's what was shut off.

poilcn 9mo ago

What are you talking about, 92% of Russian population has access to internet via landlines, the government subsidised building all the infustructre. The internet access is one of the cheapest in the world($5-10 per month for 100-500mbit/s), starlink with its $50-120 price tag is not affordable at all, ignoring the fact it doesn't even work here

N_Lens 9mo ago
Misinformation on HN? Well, I never!

inemesitaffia 8mo ago

Where did you get "4 years"? And what makes you think people in Russia were using the service?