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It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane
by paxys 9mo ago
It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is.
"You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?"
"Well I don't have a Real ID."
"Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through."
So it was never about security at all then, was it?
And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and laptops.
- MattDamonSpace 9mo agoterrorists don’t have $45 each
- Supermancho 9mo agoIt's meant to deter poor people, but it sounds better the way you said it.
- lateforwork 9mo agoThe $45 pays for extra checks and scrutiny.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- dheera 9mo agoI'm almost positive they get paid the same at the end of the day either way and the $45 just lines the pockets of someone on the top.
- iknowstuff 9mo agoDo you not see how an organization discouraging the use of something inefficient benefits as a whole? Thats why cashless businesses exist, why you pay more for things that involve human attention instead of automated online solutions etc.
- beeflet 9mo agoWho does it benefit? Not me. Maybe it benefits Mastercard and Visa.
- iknowstuff 9mo agoYes it benefits the consumer through lower prices, and in the case of cashless specifically, less tax fraud, etc
- craftkiller 9mo agoMost businesses near me offer lower prices to people paying with cash.
- iknowstuff 9mo agoHigh interchange fees? https://www.clearlypayments.com/blog/interchange-fees-by-country/ https://www.clearlypayments.com/blog/interchange-fees-by-cou... or tax fraud, otherwise cashless is obviously cheaper
- alecbz 9mo agoIt's not that they'd pay individual employees more, it's that they'd hire more workers to account for the fact that their existing workers are tied up doing extra verification. Though they might not do that either.
- ibejoeb 9mo agoEven that fails a sanity test. They're not doing anything more than they would have done 25 years ago when the whole damn thing started.
- alecbz 9mo agoI wasn't flying 25 years ago but I'm not sure what you mean, or how that's relevant actually. The point is just that it takes them more time to do the "extra screening" if you don't have your ID than the standard screening if you did have your ID.
- ibejoeb 9mo agoSure. A couple of things to clarify: 1. They're not doing screening. The screening comes later. At this stage, they're attempting to identify someone. That has never been the job. The job is to prevent guns, knives, swollen batteries, or anything else that could be a safety threat during air travel. 2. Regardless, the reality is that they do identify travelers. Even so, the job has not changed. If you don't present sufficient identification, they will identify you through other mechanisms. The only thing the new dictate says is that they don't want this document, they want that document.
- FireBeyond 9mo ago> That has never been the job. The job is to prevent guns, knives, swollen batteries, or anything else that could be a safety threat during air travel. A job that by their own internal testing, they do well less than 5% of the time (some of their audits showed that 98% of fake/test guns that were sent through TSA got through checkpoints).
- glaucon 9mo agoWhat are these checks and scrutiny and how are they applied in the time available? Given the time available is not great ("I'm on the next flight") and the amount of money is modest if humans are involved I'm intrigued to know what could be done that $45 would cover.
- wmf 9mo agoData brokers already know everything about every American so the TSA is just buying existing information from them. Then they can quickly quiz you on the information to verify that you are you. https://network.id.me/article/what-is-knowledge-based-verification-kbv/ https://network.id.me/article/what-is-knowledge-based-verifi...
- crazygringo 9mo agoIt's a database lookup that takes 5-15 minutes once you get to an available officer, but then depending on what it returns you may need additional screening, which will also need to wait for someone available. That's why if you don't have an ID, you should get to the airport at least an hour earlier than otherwise (already accounting for long security lines), and more during peak travel times. If you get slowed down, you're going to miss your flight. They're not going to speed it up for you.
- eitally 9mo agoTo me this makes no sense at all. The visual (or computational) ID check takes a second. Why is a manual entry of someone's name/DOB something that takes 5-15 minutes? This is a process control issue, not a technical problem.
- crazygringo 9mo agoYou're misunderstanding. What's preventing me from finding someone on Facebook who looks kind of similar to me, finding out their address and phone number, and then claiming I'm them but forgot my ID? Or if I'm a serious criminal planning ahead, applying for a legitimate driver's license in that other person's name with easily-forgeable documentation that less strict DMV's accept when they aren't RealID? That's what they're guarding against. There's is no secure enough visual or computational ID check that takes a second when you're not already carrying a RealID or passport, that's the point. They have to start getting a bunch of information from databases, determining if it seems like a real person, and quizzing you on information you should know if you're the real you, and seeing if it all adds up or not.
- beeflet 9mo agowhat the fuck extra checks and scrutiny could they possibly need? They already go through an x-ray machine and get molested before we get on the plane, "real ID" or not.
- kube-system 9mo agoThere are more criteria to get through security than "not carrying prohibited items". Several of those are dependent on identity, which is why they verify identity.
- AngryData 9mo agoIt seems to me that all those other consideration only matter for international travel, while for domestic travel its an obvious waste of time from every angle.
- kube-system 9mo agoWhy would you think that? All four of the hijacked flights that led to the creation of the TSA were domestic flights.
- AngryData 9mo agoAnd how many of those would additional federal ID have prevented?
- kube-system 9mo agoPre 9/11 you didn’t even need an ID to board a flight. And you could take a knife with you. Having a reliable ID system is only useful if you have a security apparatus to check them, which literally did not exist then.
- beeflet 9mo agoWhat difference does it make if it's a foreign or domestic terrorist on a domestic flight? If you're a foreign terrorist and you get can get in the USA, you've probably have some excuse to be in the US, whether that's as a tourist or with a work visa or something. So you can probably board a domestic flight either way. The justification for all of the security theatre after 9/11 was that it would stop terrorist attacks. Makes no difference what passport they have as long as you can determine they're not smuggling a bomb up their ass. Not to mention that you can't take down a plane with a box-cutter anymore. The only way the 9/11 hijackers were successful is that the remaining passengers thought that the hijackers were pirates. It's a burned 0-day. You could just enact a policy of shooting down all planes within a certain radius of large buildings. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual cost would be orders of magnitude less than the annual cost of TSA. As long as you could ensure that aircraft couldn't be weaponized against major infrastructure, hijacking a plane would be no more dangerous than hijacking a train.
- sailfast 9mo agoBullshit. Also not legally required.
- steele 9mo agoGot a bridge to sell you
- crazygringo 9mo agoIt may be many things, but I very much doubt the motivation is a money grab. A few people paying $45 isn't lining the pockets of some government official, or plugging a hole in any possible budget. Dealing with the presence of travelers who haven't updated their driver's licenses requires a bunch of extra staff to perform the time-consuming additional verifications. The basic idea is for those staff to be paid by the people using them, rather than by taxpayers and air travelers more generally. As well as there being a small deterrent effect.
- Forgeties79 9mo ago$45 x millions of people (some multiple times) = an incredibly consequential amount of money
- crazygringo 9mo agoIt's not millions of people, most people get Real ID. In the context of airport security budgets, it's not that much. And it's used for hiring the additional staff required and putting together the identity verification systems they use.
- Forgeties79 9mo ago“Most” people can have it and there’d still be millions (tens of millions, even over 100mill) of people who don’t. Multiple states don’t even require it. That guarantees several million people right there. I think New York is one, so well over 10mill people don’t require it. Do you seriously think most of those people are getting one anyway? Guarantee you there are millions of people without it if not tens of millions. I’d put money on it. So back to the point, we’re talking likely 100’s of millions of dollars. That is nothing to sneeze at. The TSA is an $11bill operation based on a quick search. $500mill (~11mill people) would be 5% of their annual budget.
- crazygringo 9mo agoAmerica only has 340 million people to begin with. Then, half the population doesn't even fly in a given year. Those that do are mostly aware of the RealID requirement and either got it whenever they last renewed their driver's license, or renewed early because their DMV kept mailing them warnings about needing to do so if they wanted to fly. Yes, most people who fly either have it, or are getting it before their next flight. Part of the $45 fee is also to incentivize people to get the RealID, as that will obviously be cheaper for them over the long run. That's the point. It's not to make money. The primary purpose is to get people to use RealID, and to cover the costs of the extra screening for those who don't. For however much more money they take in, you need to subtract the cost of the additional staff they need to hire and pay to handle it, plus the tech systems. Also, remember you can just use a passport instead. That hasn't changed.
- fhub 9mo agoMy wife, who was on a H1B visa and managed to fly without an ID a few years back. They took her to some side room, asked a bunch of questions and looked her up based on name, DOB, address etc.
- BryantD 9mo agoI am only guessing but I'd be surprised if it was a money grab. My instinct is that it's a way of highlighting RealID citizenship verification.
- deepsun 9mo agoRealID is unrelated to citizenship. It's a proof of an address, akin to soviet-style "propiska", which was very important and hard to get without (it also affected ownership/inheritance). What's more fun is that even though they accept different types of residence, they mostly trust utility bills -- but to set up utilities on your name even for your personal home utility company will ask a lot of documents, including credit score checks. I personally felt that it's utility companies who do the heavy proof checking, not DMVs.
- raw_anon_1111 9mo agoMy passport card is RealID compliant and doesn’t have my address anywhere on it.
- jacobgkau 9mo agoIt's hardly proof of address. At best, I'd say it's proof of state residency. I've moved several times since getting my Colorado driver's license (a REAL ID). Technically, you are supposed to submit a change-of-address form to the DMV online within 30 days of moving. They don't send you a new card when you do that; the official procedure is to stick a piece of paper with your new address written on it to your existing ID yourself, and then just wait until your next renewal to actually get a card with the new address on it. The change of address form does not require utility bills or any other proof of the new address-- that's only required when you initially get the driver's license.
- deepsun 9mo agoI certainly got a new plastic ID card within 2 weeks after filing the change-of-address form on DMV website, with a new address on it. They sent it to the new address. But mine was not RealID compliant (nor before nor after).
- awill 9mo agoLet me just for one second give them the benefit of the doubt. Could the $45 be a way to pay for some extra manual screening? Maybe? Or do they not deserve any benefit of the doubt.
- eli 9mo agoThey do not.
- tavavex 9mo agoFrom what I've heard, the no-ID process does indeed feature additional screening. I think the passenger would fill out a form and the TSA would cross-check it with their information. This was free prior to the new ID push, but since now people need a special ID to fly instead of using their normal one, I'm guessing they made the process cost extra to disincentivize people from sticking with their IDs and just doing the free manual process every time. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm just saying that this is probably why they decided to try this.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- tokyobreakfast 9mo ago> Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and laptops. Are these the same poor people that reputedly cannot get IDs to vote because of a government conspiracy to suppress their votes, yet can afford an airline ticket and commute to an airport?
- harimau777 9mo agoNo generally not, there's not any real connection between the two groups.
- mandeepj 9mo ago> And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and laptops. It wasn't just pay for play! TSA-PreCheck and Global Entry approval requires a thorough background check of your residential, work, and travel history, also in-person interview. Unfortunately, some Privacy activists prefer not doing that over occasional convenience. https://www.google.com/search?q=tsa+precheck+eligibility https://www.google.com/search?q=tsa+precheck+eligibility
- Rebelgecko 9mo agoGlobal Entry requires an in person interview, Precheck by itself does not
- mandeepj 9mo ago> Precheck by itself does not Now! But, when it started it definitely required.
- caseysoftware 9mo ago> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the metal detector, swab my hands, and I'm done. I usually make it through before my bags. Sometimes, a TSA moron asks "why not?" and I simply say "are you asking me to share my personal healthcare information out loud in front of a bunch of strangers? Are you a medical professional?" and they back down. Other times, they've asked "can you raise them at least this high?" and kind of motion. I ask "are you asking me to potentially injure myself for your curiosity? are you going to pay for any injuries or pain I suffer?" The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security.
- ryanscio 9mo agoSerious question: why? Most people I know who object to full-body millimeter-wave scanners either do so on pseudoscientific health claims, or “philosophical” anti-scanner objections that are structurally the same genre as sovereign-citizen or First-Amendment-auditor thinking.
- wpm 9mo agoI should not need to show an anonymous TSA agent my genitals, even if they are in black and white on some monitor theyre viewing in some back room, to get on a plane.
- 0x457 9mo agoReal ID is/was needed because every state has different requirements to get one. The whole debate is hilarious, you need one or two extra documents to get RealID. The exact same amount of time and trips to DMV.
- tdeck 9mo agoThe fact that Real ID was introduced when I was in college and has been pushed back every year since shows that we don't actually need it.
- 0x457 9mo agoThat's because many Americans are against national ID at all cost for some reason. The very same Americans think that immigrants need to have their "I'm legal" folder with them at all times.
- tdeck 9mo agoWhat are the practical benefits we're supposed to get from the RealID system? All I've ever heard is "national security" which is the excuse for every harmful thing.
- KptMarchewa 9mo agoFor example, all those stupid voter debates becomes moot.
- tdeck 9mo agoRealID has nothing to do with voting. Residency and citizenship is already verified when you register to vote. RealID is not a requirement to vote.
- 0x457 9mo agoFor started, we stop talking about "Is Real ID worth it" and annual "Real ID for sure will be required next year"
- hshdhdhj4444 9mo agoIf the $45 is meant to be temporary, it can reasonably be looked as a fine to encourage people to get their RealID. I don’t think the existence of the fine itself is necessarily evidence of a cash grab. If it isn’t temporary and extends beyond a year or two, then it probably is just meant to be a cash grab.
- tantalor 9mo agoThe word for that is tax And since Congress never approved it, well, that makes it illegal.
- lingrush4 9mo ago$45 pays for the cost of a much more tedious identity verification process.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- hahahahhaah 9mo agoIt is like the government loooed at Ryanair and thought "what if we were like that!"
- root_axis 9mo agoIt's not a money grab, it's a tactic to encourage compliance. This isn't evidence of a change in security posture, you've always been able to travel without a Real ID. They've been pushing Real ID for more than a decade, 90% of people have one already anyway, the remaining stragglers simply don't care because there have never been any consequences. Now TSA is offering an ultimatum. Pay $45 once to renew your ID or pay it every time you travel. For most people this is enough motivation to renew the ID and never think about it again.
- themafia 9mo agoExactly. I wish it was about money. It's about surveillance. The TSA even flatly says the quiet part out loud. "The fee is to make you _comply_." That's madness. For the $45 I should get a "TSA ID" that lets me fly for a year. That would be a cash grab. They don't even care enough to do that. They want to blur the line between state and federal and they're going to use your need to fly to accomplish that.
- fc417fc802 9mo agos/tactic to encourage compliance/blatant coercion/ FTFY They've been trying to push this BS for over a decade but some of the states haven't been adopting it the way they'd like. The threats to ban travel without one were ultimately toothless as there would have been far too much backlash (and that would presumably be unconstitutional). This is what they figure they can get away with. > the remaining stragglers simply don't care because there have never been any consequences The default ID that my state issues has historically not been RealID compliant and I think that's a good thing. I have no interest in actively participating in the latest authoritarian overreach attempt.
- chaboud 9mo agoAwwwww. I was going to hijack this plane and use it as a weapon in a divide attack, but $45?! You got me, TSA! That's just too rich for my blood!
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- colecut 9mo agowould love to know the revenue generated by bottled water pre and post 9/11
- Ms-J 9mo agoIt was never about security only control of you and everyone else.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- nomel 9mo agoI knew the Real ID requirements wouldn't be enforced, at least here in California, about a year before, after I saw the requirements: California can't enforce it because it would prevent too many undocumented people from flying. Although, I thought it would just be delayed indefinitely. I suppose it effectively has been. Too much of our economy depends on them.
- arcticbull 9mo ago> "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." It's not pay $45 to go though, it's pay $45 for someone to take you around back and look you up based on secondary identification, and if they can't positively identify you based on that you still can't go through. This is a system that has been in place for a long, long time. You could always say you don't have ID and they'll look you up. The change is they're now charging for it. > And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and laptops. This is also not accurate. If you're talking about Clear, you just skip to the front of the normal line. If you're talking about Pre, those people are individually background-checked before hand, and it costs $19/yr, so it's not exactly a tophat and monocle only program. Especially since that's half the price of a one-way taxi ride to the airport, let alone the ticket. The airport self-selects for the fairly well off to begin with.
- thesmtsolver2 9mo agoFully agreed with you. Amazing how blatant misinformation gets to the top here.
- Thorrez 9mo ago> If you're talking about Pre, those people are individually background-checked before hand, and it costs $19/yr, The lowest amount I see on https://www.tsa.gov/precheck https://www.tsa.gov/precheck is $58.75.
- arcticbull 9mo agoAh right I think I was benchmarking on global entry so that’s $11.75 per year.
- mikkupikku 9mo agoThe TSA are literally terrorists. Their job isn't to stop terrorism, their job is to keep memory of terrorism fresh in the public's mind, to keep them afraid, to constantly remind people that they must be subservient to the federal government or else more people will die. It's flat out terrorism.
- spacecadet 9mo agoNo. In the early 2000s we called it security theater. Do we think that somehow they went from theater to serious? Hell no, it's all downward spiral. I constantly pen-test the TSA using humorous methods while traveling, it's a complete joke.
- gcanyon 9mo ago"My ID? I identify as Andrew Jackson twice and Lincoln"
- pstuart 9mo agoOr the fact that you have to re-up for Pre-TSA -- they already know who we are, they already have their databases, it's intentional money grab. But then again, so is PreTSA...
- BowBun 9mo agoTSA pre-check, Global Entry, and Clear _infuriate_ me. It is privatization of public transportation and a net negative for society. In New York, JFK has closed off half of the security entrances for priority lanes, meaning a majority of passengers are forced into 50% of the entrances. The airport was built with state+federal funds, and now tax-paying residents are second-class to those who can afford $100/year. It's not even the amount, it's the principle. And before people start to argue that planes aren't public transportation - over 10 million _passenger_ flights a year. It is critical to the functioning of all aspects of society.
- shrx 9mo agoAirlines are not public transportation. Usually they're all privatized.
- kbelder 9mo ago>TSA pre-check, Global Entry, and Clear _infuriate_ me And these additions are the opposite of privatization, they are federal requirements, de facto socialization.
- BowBun 9mo agoImplementing 'fast lanes' is not a federal requirement and is the opposite of fair access to commonplace services.
- SunshineTheCat 9mo agoAny time the TSA comes back into the news I always go through old Remi videos all over again. They are masterpieces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrof3Rf3_L8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrof3Rf3_L8
- garyfirestorm 9mo agoIt was about immigration. I remember around 2015 when I was on F1 visa - in Michigan - you could get drivers license and it would expire when your visa expired. However my few lucky friends in NY/NJ/CA? Just got blanket 5yr expiry on their licenses from the day of renewal. I.E. their visas could expire well before their ‘IDs’ could. RealID was introduced to eliminate these discrepancies. And to get a realId now you need to show your visa documents/approvals.