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Good. People are sometimes negative or worried about China, with how they spy on people etc. But for most of the western world, the real danger is US and not Ch
by Insanity 9mo ago
Good. People are sometimes negative or worried about China, with how they spy on people etc. But for most of the western world, the real danger is US and not China. Just think - Canadian, Europeans etc are more likely to go on business travel to the States than China. You can get your phone checked at the border and if you’re not too keen about the US dear leader, that won’t be good for your US admission.
Being negative about Xi might have similar results, but less likely in practice.
- jumpman_miya 9mo ago[dead]
- NicoJuicy 9mo agoBoth are equally bad. The US is just less trustworthy at this point, at least we know china's goal better. Note: both under the current administration
- SpicyLemonZest 9mo agoDo we know China’s goal better? They seemed quite willing to punt on Hong Kong democracy until 2049, as they originally agreed to, until one day they decided that it was time for democracy to be over.
- Insanity 9mo agoBoth are equally bad in theory. But my point is that (currently) the US would, in practice, negatively impact Canadians and EU more.
- lumost 9mo agoThe US has had two faces for the last generation. Bush jr. dragged the British into Iraq and generally angered the EU. That the next republican president was overtly hostile to the EU is a continuation of the theme. It’s hard to build an alliance when one of the partners flips their fundamental goals every 4 years.
- oaiey 9mo agoBush was trusted in Europe. We never felt that he betrayed Europe. There were tough trade deals and stupid wars, but there was never doubt we could rely on the US in this times. It was fine. This started with Trump and Project 2025 and whatever the tea party mixes in there.
- chroma 9mo agoI don't think that's true. When I was in Italy in 2003, I saw plenty of anti-American and anti-Bush sentiment. eg: Rainbow flags with "pace" on them and "Yankee go home" graffiti.
- NicoJuicy 9mo agoI suppose that was after Iraq. There were huge protests against the war, but not really aimed at bush.
- oaiey 9mo agoYeah, but I can hate my neighbor for his reckless business behavior but fully trust him in saving my house if the yard burns. Trust and liking someone are very different things.
- NicoJuicy 9mo agoThere was not much of a problem with Bush? Current administration is just bat shit crazy and hungry for personal gain.
- 1659447091 9mo ago> Bush jr. dragged the British into Iraq ... W. and Blair were in cahoots wrt Iraq. Start with Jan. 28, 2003 State of the Union address, Bush's 16 words: “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” and go from there. Leaked British documents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Iraq_document_leak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Iraq_document_leak Bush–Blair 2003 Iraq memo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush–Blair_2003_Iraq_memo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush–Blair_2003_Iraq_memo September Dossier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dossier Chilcot Report: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Inquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Inquiry > That the next republican president [...] is a continuation of the theme. Leaving out EU part, I agree with the continuation. W. commuted the prison sentence of Scooter Libby (convicted of obstruction for interfering with an investigation the bush admin outed a CIA operative in retribution for her husband being outspoken that the intelligence that lead to Iraq where "twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat"). Trump fully pardoned him in 2018. Also, we have Bushism's and Trumpism's. It's uncanny how George W. was like a beta version of the full featured Trump Gold release. Both are/were figureheads that had people running them, the hanging chads 2000 election kerfuffle-fraud in Florida (of all places) that lead to SCOTUS appointing W. as president etc; it's almost as if that deep state maga likes to talk about is real.
- oaiey 9mo agoBoth are not friend of EU/Canada right now. But China at least never pretended (or we never saw them like that). The US however was a factual savior, then a close ally and a partner for 85 years! That is roughly 60 years longer than China was a relevant factor in the world order. It is the loss of trust / change which tortures the world. Not the amount of current trust.
- clot27 9mo ago[flagged]
- narrator 9mo agoHowever, you can't emigrate to China. There are less than 20,000 naturalized citizens in the whole country. You will always be a barbarian, bro.
- akmarinov 9mo agoDidn’t they make it so that citizens of 75 countries can’t emigrate to the US just yesterday?
- narrator 9mo agoYou can hate the United States all you want, memorize your little red book of Mao, but you still can't become a naturalized citizen in China cause you aren't Chinese by blood.
- akmarinov 9mo agoWho said I’m hating on it? Just pointing out the hypocrisy in the comment.
- throw-the-towel 9mo agoNone of which is Western.
- akmarinov 9mo agoNorth Macedonia and Albania aren’t? What about when they join the EU?
- chroma 9mo agoDoesn't that prove too much? For example, North Korea treats their citizens horribly, but since it's not a threat to westerners, would that mean that trade deals with them are acceptable? It's hard for me to come up with a standard that encourages trade with China but discourages trade with North Korea. I'm not saying that trade with the US is therefore a good idea. There are many reasonable moral standards that would forbid trade with both the US & China.
- Insanity 9mo agoNK and China are not at the same level lol - NK is almost an inescapable dictatorship, with routine mistreatment and indoctrination. If that were true, you can claim the current US is 1930s Nazi Germany, with a right wing government using media manipulation and “othering”, in a pseudo dictatorship. Not to mention the US and China use similar “low level” indoctrination strategies (like swearing allegiance to the flag in schools)
- chroma 9mo agoI never said that North Korea was similar to China. I was simply applying your argument to another country to show how it isn't a good argument for whether or not to trade.
- lossolo 9mo agoAround 100 million Chinese people travel abroad every year, and they all return to their country of their own free will. You can't even leave North Korea without special permission, which only certain workers get. I've been to China, and I'm going again this year, I'm from the EU. The funniest thing is that China's Tier 1 cities are more developed than EU cities and offer a better quality of life.
- gattis 9mo agonobody equated china to north korea. the post you are replying to applied equivalent logic to an extreme example (north korea) to show more easily that the logic cannot be correct.
- azan_ 9mo ago> Being negative about Xi might have similar results, but less likely in practice. Being negative about Xi has typically much worse in consequence and closer cooperation with China might make it more likely in practice. I'm not saying countries should not cooperate with China, just that your argument is not that great.
- Insanity 9mo agoI think you misunderstood my earlier point. I mean for most EU or Canadian citizens, the odds of being negative about Xi having actual impact are near 0 (not many travel to China), whilst many do travel to the US.. and rely on US tech.
- azan_ 9mo agoNo, you've misunderstood my point. Note that I wrote "closer cooperation with China might make it more likely in practice" - my point is that closer relations with China will increase how many people travel there increasing odds of being negative about Xi having actual impact.
- 827a 9mo agoYou're right, but only half-way to the most realistic conclusion. Canada is stuck between a rock and a hard place. The US is increasingly hostile, because the US wants control over the warming arctic naval routes and higher border security. Greenland is just a softer target for now. However, turning away from the US (~85% of Canadian trade) to China (~8%) weakens Canada and gives political cover for the US to take further hostile action. There's a game being played that, once you see it, it becomes clear that some world leaders are thinking about 2035, and other world leaders are still in 2015. I don't like it, and I genuinely feel for Canadians; they're a small, inconveniently positioned pawn that is getting caught up in something so much bigger than their country and leadership has the resources to deal with.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo agoI see we've moved from the 'he's just meme'ing, he/we know it's stupid, it's not real' to 'here's why this is 4d chess and actually good'. Edit: Since I'm throttled... Trump has been talking about Greenland since 2019, before he was surrounded with the current crop. Good try at keeping the 4D chess con going though.
- 827a 9mo agoI don't believe Trump has much of any idea of the larger stakes. But, he's surrounded by people who do, and Trump has a pattern of being a voicebox for whatever was said by the last person who talked to him.
- bigbadfeline 9mo ago> I don't believe Trump has much of any idea of the larger stakes. But, he's surrounded by people who do, Interesting, and what are the larger stakes? What good do you see in the 4th dimension? Can we be a tad more specific, just as much as necessary to avoid sounding like stargazers detached from reality. >>> However, turning away from the US (~85% of Canadian trade) to China (~8%) weakens Canada and gives political cover for the US to take further hostile action. Maybe it's news to you, but Canada didn't "turn away from the US", the current US admin turned away from Canada, despite prior agreements like USMCA. Further, is forcing Canada to implement unfavorable trade with the US and unfavorable restrictions to China worth the risk of the US becoming a self-isolated island of no freedoms and low standard of living? Whatever Canada does, they aren't going to make the US rich or solve our problems - they aren't the source of those problems. However, China can replace the US as Canada's top trade partner fairly quickly and without straining their economy. Ditto, for the rest of the world replacing the dollar with other instruments, the process has already started thanks to the erratic and shortsighted policies of Trump's admin. >>> There's a game being played that, once you see it, I see it fairly clearly and there's nothing good for the US in it, nether now nor in 2035. >>> it becomes clear that some world leaders are thinking about 2035, and other world leaders are still in 2015. So, we're supposed to wait for the bright future (tm) and accept whatever lunatic actions are undertaken before that? Suspend reason, common sense... and the Constitution because the bright future demands it? > Trump has a pattern of being a voicebox for whatever was said by the last person who talked to him. Well, following the note-written plan of person R one day, of person V the next and of person M the day after, isn't going to generate anything other than an incoherent mess of a policies, the empirical evidence is in full agreement here. Then, what if the last person who talked to him is being a voicebox for the last person who talked to the last person who talked to him? Where would that get us?
- throwaway5757 9mo agoTrump is bad, but Xi really is only worse.