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It's a shame the Lightning got discontinued. As an EV owner, it sucks that the main thing holding the technology back is misconceptions and misunderstanding, r

It's a shame the Lightning got discontinued. As an EV owner, it sucks that the main thing holding the technology back is misconceptions and misunderstanding, rather than actual practical matters. People think EVs are cars with tanks of electrons, and run aground the same way you would if you thought horses were cars full of hay. It's a different transport tool that gives the same results, you just have to know how to use it properly.

mdavid626 9mo ago
I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.
- ceejayoz 9mo ago
  Thanks for illustrating the point.
  - loeg 9mo ago
    They have worse prices (higher) and worse range (lower, particularly for towing). These aren't misconceptions. (My only car is an EV that I'm happy with. But lying about EVs doesn't benefit advocates.)
    - fullstop 9mo ago
      Obviously this is slanted by tax credits, but the EV that I have shares a name with the existing gas model and was less expensive. EVs aren't for everything, but mine fits my use case perfectly.
      - loeg 9mo ago
        I'd be interested to hear which model, because that's pretty remarkable.
        fullstop 9mo ago
        Equinox EV. Now that the tax credits have expired it is a different story. The 2025 gas version's MSRP was about 30k, and the electric one was about 35k with a $7500 tax credit.
        loeg 9mo ago
        Ok, thanks. Current 2026 base trim prices are 29k for the ICE and 35k for the EV. If you told me GM was eating thinner unit margins on the EV version, I wouldn't be shocked either.
        fullstop 9mo ago
        It's been a good car. Maintenance, so far, has been tire rotations and wiper fluid.
    - ceejayoz 9mo ago
      > They have worse prices (higher) Does this factor in cost of ownership? Gas, oil changes, less complexity? > worse range (lower, particularly for towing) Towing reduces a gas powered car’s range, too.
      - mdavid626 9mo ago
        (Towing) You can fill it up in 5 min. Not true for EV.
        ceejayoz 9mo ago
        Pop in for a pee and a snack. In the 15-20 mins that takes, you'll have a good amount of charge. Towing is also a bit of an edge case. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz... > According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
        rootusrootus 9mo ago
        Hell, ain't true for any gas pickup I've owned, either. Big tanks, and often temperamental bastards that have to be babysat and won't take fuel at full pump speed in any case. Most road trip stops, according to the AAA, are 15 minutes anyway. Only on the Internet does everyone take 5 minutes to refuel.
        loeg 9mo ago
        ~60 kWh still takes 18 minutes to charge at 200kW, and 200kW is a relatively optimistic average charge speed for most EVs at this time. Bigger batteries, or slower charge rates, take longer.
        rootusrootus 9mo ago
    - WorldMaker 9mo ago
      They have artificially worse prices in the US where EVs are mostly only getting sold as "luxury" vehicles and competition is hobbled by dealer networks and dealer laws and import tariffs. Most other parts of the world EVs are starting to be cheaper than the equivalent ICE in the same category. Range often doesn't need to get better, the impression of range needs to change. That's where a lot of misconceptions play into effect, over-focusing on things like gas-station-like charging stations over at-home charging. Over-focusing on "zero to full tank/battery statistics" when no one keeps a gas vehicle with a full tank overnight every night. Over-focusing on high speed charging and ignoring boring but useful "Level 1" charging, which is "just about everywhere" because our society has been building electrical outlets for a long time. Sure, the experience changes in things like long distance trips, but experience changes aren't "worse" by default of being a change.
      - phainopepla2 9mo ago
        I still have to pay the price whether it's artificial or not
- MostlyStable 9mo ago
  I can do a ten hour road trip with a family of four plus a dog in a used (2022) EV that I got for ~30k last year. I think the idea that price and range are problems is exactly the misconception that op was taking about. They are somewhat more expensive, although when I originally did the calculus, fuel savings made up the difference in monthly payments for a new vehicle, but that's going to vary a lot. The is a very small proportion of people for whom range is a legitimate concern.
  - alistairSH 9mo ago
    Now do the range/time/stops calculation with a travel trailer. Yes, if we're talking about normal family travel, an EV works fine for many trips (though there are still charging "dead spots" in parts of the country - looking at you WV). But, "truck stuff" like towing, they aren't there yet. Maybe in a few years when we get the next generation of battery and charger tech.
    - Workaccount2 9mo ago
      In truth you cannot really do this because range is a function of drag, not really weight. So if you are towing a 2000lb empty box mobile home it's gonna be worse than towing an 8000lb flat bed of decorative boulders.
      - alistairSH 9mo ago
        Yep. It takes a massive battery (and massive "normal" range) to pull off towing any distance. Unless I'm wrong, only the Chevy Silverado EV has the range (480ish) to make a reasonable tow vehicle, but only with the big battery, which pushes the price north of $90k.
      - mmmlinux 9mo ago
        AgingWheels on youtube did a video testing exactly this.
  - IncreasePosts 9mo ago
    I actually enjoy doing road trips in my tesla more so than in ICEs, because of the forced breaks. With ICEs, stops would be either for food or for bathroom breaks. A lot of times just eating in the car while driving. But for a 10 hour drive I am forced to take 4 20 minute stops - so once every 2 hours. This ends up making me feel a lot better at the end of the trip and also gives you "guilt free" time to enjoy a random park you've never been to, or sit down and have a meal. So, lets say 80 minutes of added time for a 10 hour trip, vs maybe 40 minutes that I would have added in my gas guzzler. 40 minutes extra on a 10 hour trip just isn't that big of a deal to me and especially so considering all the benefits from walking around for a bit or seeing some new places. Obviously you could do that same thing in an ICE car, but I feel the pressure to keep moving so it hits different.
- nikcub 9mo ago
  Resale value is starting to ward some people off. You can buy 1-2 year old used Teslas and BYD's in Australia for ~30% below retail. Meanwhile Toyota hybrids not just retain their value but there have been moments where used RAV4's are listed above retail because the waitlist for new was so long.
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  - legobmw99 9mo ago
    The poor resale market for EVs just means that people who actually have some understanding of the battery lifespans can get very good deals on 1-2 year old cars
  - rootusrootus 9mo ago
    Tesla is a special case because they manipulate their pricing on a monthly, sometimes daily basis, and in the past they've changed the price quite significantly. In the US, the tax credits also really screw with the market dynamics. Lots of people think the car depreciates really quickly because they don't realize the original buyer didn't pay MSRP. I paid $20K under MSRP for my Lightning and in the just over a year I've owned it, the value has dropped about 7-8K. Pretty normal for the first year of a new vehicle.
    - simondotau 9mo ago
      Most other car prices are "manipulated" on a minute-by-minute basis, insofar as pricing is different for each customer, based on their their willingness to go hard in negotiation, manufacturer incentives, demand levels, stock levels, finance packages, and the current mood of the dealership principal. The difference with Tesla is that their current "best price" is published out in the open.
- _ea1k 9mo ago
  Exactly, price is a huge problem. IIRC, the average selling price of F-150 is ~50k. The extended range Lightning tended to be $60k and up. Sure, it had AWD, but lots of people didn't need that. The Cybertruck is even more expensive. Both had huge preorders when they were announced at ~50k.
  - rootusrootus 9mo ago
    My 2024 Lightning Flash was just under 51K, FWIW. Extended range, plenty of toys, definitely not the base model. I admit I was also under the impression they were expensive, and I was shopping for a Powerboost F150 first, until someone told me that MSRP was a lie.
- Workaccount2 9mo ago
  Range is the misconception, because people view range through the "sit and fill up then drive till empty" paradigm. That is not how EVs work or how they should be used. They should be charged overnight/when you are doing something else, and on road trips should be charged to align with other stops even if those stops are 10 minutes. It's rare that I have ever done the "sit in the car for 40 minutes waiting for charge", and extremely common to do the "Put car on charger for 13 minutes while going into [insert any of the gazillion places with chargers in the parking lot] to use the bathroom, stretch legs, and get a snack, or see a landmark" Also you usually structure it so you arrive at your destination with very low charge, because you fill up while there. I've yet to be at a hotel with a gas pump in the lot. Again, EVs function differently than gas, and that change of paradigm really gets people ruffled up and confused.
  - mdavid626 9mo ago
    That’s exactly the problem. I’d be happy to use an EV daily, as I drive short distances. But when I drive longer, then I don’t want to waste hours on charging. The other day I drove 700km in just about 5.5 hours (German Autobahn). Few stops to pee. With EV that would be few hours more (!). If this doesn’t bother you, then it’s fine. It matters to me though. Sometimes I also drive early in the morning 600km, and in the afternoon back, so I’m home until 22:00. With EV, that’s just impossible.
    - plorkyeran 9mo ago
      As long as there's a fast charging station somewhere along the route you'd need more like 30 minutes to charge midway through, not multiple hours. You also surely recognize that your driving patterns are very atypical and a car not working for them says very little about how suitable the car is for the market as a whole.
      - mdavid626 9mo ago
        Assuming car can charge that fast. This is why I said “price and range”. Renault 5 EV charges with 11kW.
- Workaccount2 9mo ago
  A 600 mile trip can (theoretically) be done with 1 charge, because you leave home with full range, and arrive with 0 charge (and fill up overnight). That one charge is done while eating dinner, or spaced out in increments over the course of the trip, stops which you would take anyway. I know few people who want to bang out 10 hours without stopping for at least 1-2 hours over the course of the trip. And those who do, can be the edge case with gas cars. So you need to go 600 miles, and you need 1 full charge worth of energy during that. If that one charge takes 1 hour, you can also break it up into four 15 minute sessions at any time of your chosing. I'm sorry, but almost no regular person does 10 hours without at least four 15 minute stops. Range is not at all the problem people make it out to be.
  - mdavid626 9mo ago
    Which EV can go 600 miles with one charge, or with so little charging? How much does that car cost? Are you assuming, that every charger on the way is 200kW?
    - Kirby64 9mo ago
      Lucid Grand Touring can do it in one charge (that lasts ~45 minutes). Expensive, but it could do it. I did Shreveport, LA to Pesos, TX as an example. If you're OK with 2 charging stops, an Ioniq 6 or a Tesla Model 3 will work just fine. Also, charging speed is irrelevant to how many stops you need. Most chargers are >150kW these days, though. If you truly want to minimize charging stops, you'd be better served charging 3+ times for shorter periods of time, though.
      - selimthegrim 9mo ago
        Pecos?
        Kirby64 9mo ago
        I picked Shreveport, LA as a starting location and went west towards El Paso until I found a city that was slightly over 600 miles of distance. The cities are mostly irrelevant unless you pick something that is exceptionally hilly such as routes through mountain ranges or something.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  Depends a lot on the particular example. My Lightning was less expensive than the Powerboost I had been shopping for originally. And 250-300 miles is well beyond my typical daily driving range requirement (and Superchargers are pretty plentiful in most of the areas I ever find myself).
threetonesun 9mo ago
An F-150 Lightning and Cybertruck weigh somewhere between 6000 and 7000 pounds, so I personally think of them the same way as if you replaced your horse with a hippo. It's not hard to convince people to move to electric, just make it such a better economic proposition that it would be silly not to.
- deleted 9mo ago
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- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  No pickup is light. A Lightning weighs about the same as a gasser F250, and less than a diesel F250.
- morshu9001 9mo ago
  I don't need a pickup truck, but if I ever did, I'd get whatever my landscaper has. Unlike most people with Rivians, Lightnings, Cybertrucks, Ridgelines, and Raptors, he totally relies on that truck for work. So far it's Tacoma. Maybe some day he'll have an EV instead.
  - bombcar 9mo ago
    I knew someone who had a Tacoma for construction work; he got it because everyone had one. Later he had to take it in to the shop and they gave him a loaner cargo van, and from then on he regretted not getting a cargo van instead of a truck. The vast majority of what he did with the truck was carry tools, which are easier to access in a van; the few times he carried materials he would have to unload the whole truck or get the trailer anyway.
subpixel 9mo ago
I disagree. I really want a Lightning but live in a very rural place, weekend in an even more rural place, and need to pull a trailer pretty often. I already have a plug-in hybrid that gets 40+ miles/charge and have opined all over the internet that the perfect car is one that gets 100+ miles/charge before firing any gas engine. It sounds like the next Lightning will give me that though I don’t put much stock in their promises. Personally the Scout is too bougie but it does similarly.
- idontwantthis 9mo ago
  I don’t get plug in hybrids. All other engine types save you more money compared to the next less efficient alternative the more you use them, but plugins get closer to the less efficient alternative (regular hybrid) the more you use them. Add in the approximately 25% price hike over the hybrid version when there is one and it makes no sense to me.
  - danans 9mo ago
    > but plugins get closer to the less efficient alternative (regular hybrid) the more you use them. As long as most of your drive cycle fits within the EV range of the plugin hybrid, they are cheaper to operate than a regular hybrid. The crossover point depends on the drive cycle and the cost of electricity vs gasoline. I had a plug-in hybrid SUV that got 2.2miles/kWh in EV mode, which covered 75% of the miles I drove. The net savings were significant vs an equivalent plain hybrid SUV in my area, which would get basically the same gasoline miles/gal.
    - idontwantthis 9mo ago
      But the problem is that means you drove a minuscule amount so if you’d bought a hybrid you would have still used very little gas and your car would have been much cheaper. Generously, the full range of a plugin hybrid is equivalent to about a gallon of gas.
      - danans 9mo ago
danans 9mo ago
> It's a shame the Lightning got discontinued. > As an EV owner, it sucks that the main thing holding the technology back is misconceptions and misunderstanding, rather than actual practical matters. The F150 Lighting (and the Cybertruck) are failing precisely because it was impractical. It was expensive, has limited range when doing actual "pickup truck" work, like hauling tons of construction materials. It was built for the very niche market of buyers at the intersection of luxury pickups and EVs. People who buy huge luxury pickups tend not to want EVs, and people who buy EVs tend not to want huge luxury pickup trucks. A practical work truck needs to be smaller, less luxurious, and less expensive, electric or not. If Ford follows through and releases a plugin-hybrid Maverick with 150ish miles of EV range plus the onboard generator, that would be ideal. A pure EV drivetrain on the other hand is incredibly practical for daily commuter and even long distance travel - assuming you have home charging - but not for hauling tons of stuff long distances.
- Workaccount2 9mo ago
  The lighting is fine for towing, especially the type that people usually do. You can tow up to 10,000lbs and the truck has ridiculous power to pull it. What you can't do it tow it long distances (>90mi, worst case) without 40 minute stops every 1.5 hours. That sucks. But the truth is very few truck owners are towing huge loads long distances. However, if you are pulling your lawn care trailer around town, you will not have a problem, because every day you start with a full charge. As an aside, the main killer of range for a trailer is a function of speed and drag. Low drag trailers driven at highway speeds (60-65) have marginal impacts on range, regardless of weight. Again, the whole thing is ridden with misconceptions and misunderstandings. The majority of people who tow stuff, can still tow stuff while reaping cheaper operating costs.
  - cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
    > But the truth is very few truck owners are towing huge loads long distances. This pattern also applies more broadly. Most people don't actually need to drive 400 miles without stopping, don't actually need an SUV, and in some cases don't actually need a truck. For a huge swath of the population some variation on a hybrid/electric hatchback/wagon or minivan is actually the best match for their needs, but practicality is rarely the prevailing factor in vehicle purchase decisions.
alistairSH 9mo ago
...misconceptions and misunderstanding, rather than actual practical matters. What's the range of an F-150 Lightning when towing a small travel trailer? The Rivian R1T is ~150 miles give or take. I assume the F-150 is similar. At least for towing, the math isn't great. Especially when you add in the cost - my Honda Ridgeline was $42k in 2021. EV trucks are roughly double that amount.
- redeeman 9mo ago
  of course your ridgeline has other ways to hurt you :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyjfbS7MMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyjfbS7MMA
  - alistairSH 9mo ago
    Funny because it's true. It's the most boring and practical vehicle I've ever owned. But, it does everything, so I'm having a hard time convincing my wife I need a Ranger Raptor or (used) AMG GLE.
    - k12sosse 9mo ago
      Don't forget it only drinks premium fuel. The #1 reason to avoid the raptor, otherwise it's very fun. Test drive the tremor Lariat. Sure it's not the 3.0L but it costs a third to operate for a year, and you still go too fast in sport mode.
      - alistairSH 9mo ago
        I don't think the Tremor is available in the US, at least not in '25/'26.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  > my Honda Ridgeline was $42k in 2021. EV trucks are roughly double that amount My Lightning was <$51K in 2024.
frogperson 9mo ago
The main thing holding EV back is the oil industry, not the tech. The US is the only country lagging on EV and its all because the industry puts so much effort in to squashing all progress. EVs are simpler and cheaper. Look at how fast adoption is growing outside the US. If US citizens could buy a BYD for the same price as in China, the the US auto makers and oil companies would be in trouble.
- xiphias2 9mo ago
  It's not only US, it's global. I drive quite a lot throught southern Europe with my EV, and it's super frustrating that gas stations have the infrastructure on the highway while for my EV I have to go just outside the highway to a fast charger (wasting time), then I need to pay again (and waste a lot of time to go through the gate) to get back on the highway for example in Italy.
  - thatsit 9mo ago
    Toll gates in general are a waste of time. I use bip&go + telepass lanes in Italy to get through them faster.
    - xiphias2 9mo ago
      I will order it, thanks! I see that it's good for 4 countries, that's great
- morshu9001 9mo ago
  US was the first to make EVs mainstream
  - yndoendo 9mo ago
    US was also the one that started the solar panel industry during the cold war. After the cold war the politicians saw no value in it and a lot of the IP was sold to China. China is now out pacing the technology in solar. [0] It is not about being first it is about continual investment to do it better. China are also the ones that have the most electric infrastructure to greatly reduce their reliance on foreign countries because of that momentum they kept up. [0] https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537070/taming-the-sun/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537070/taming-the-sun/
m463 9mo ago
Yes, I've had conversations with ice owners and the misconceptions are enormous in their minds. Practically speaking¹, normal people could buy a tesla and drive it like a gas car, except with a full tank of gas every morning. They could still drive across the state once a month to grandma's and they could supercharge if range got low. This is due to a couple things that were not in place for early EVs. - teslas have a lot of range/battery compared to early EVs - superchargers are in many locations, have plentiful charging spots, and are reliable - teslas have a good UI to navigate and charge [1] 99% of the time. If you're an apartment dweller in the artic circle with a supercharger 2000 miles away, please scroll onwards.
- morshu9001 9mo ago
  It's not 99% of the time, it's for people who own single-family homes. Apartment dwellers maaaybe have EV spots but can't leave their cars there.
  - NoLinkToMe 9mo ago
    I think OP has it right. Tesla with lowest range has 430km, highest range 650. Let's average it to 500km. The average American driver drives 60km per day. In other words you need to charge less than every 8 days. You can charge to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. In other words if you find yourself near a charge (easy) for 20-30 minutes a week (easy), then on average there is no range issue. You're either in a rural area in a single-family home with home charging, or in low-density urban area with single family home charging, or in a dense urban area with lots of public charging. Very few sit outside these three categories that don't enable them home charging or 20-30 minutes a week public charging. And that's only going one direction. The number of fastchargers 10x'd in ten years, the range of the model S grew by 50% in the last 15 years, the charging speeds roughly tripled. Sufficient charging infrastructure seems like a solved problem, resolving it is a matter of a mere operational roll-out everywhere rather than a political/technical/economical challenge, a matter of when, not if, and a matter of increasingly smaller pockets of the country that are yet to be fully connected. (whether it's 1% or some other small percentage, range shouldn't be a driving factor for tesla sales anymore).
Affric 9mo ago
The main thing holding them back for me is the range. A few times a year I do quite long drives, sometimes you get the odd road closure and you've added a day to your trip at best, could be stranded at worst. There will be a phase shift where there are lots of fast chargers but in Australia we aren't quite there yet. Lots of my friends have EVs. The busiest routes are pretty good. On the one hand I will be a late adopter of the tech but on the other at least I know it will be a significant upgrade when I get there.
aggregator-ios 9mo ago
Spot on. The misconceptions, even from other EV owners is astounding. People are constantly confused about kWh vs kW, Amps, voltage, temperature, range, mi/kWh, etc. Even PhD Computer Science and other highly educated folks who have owned EVs for a long time can't quite communicate the difference between those units of measurement. So of course when a curious person asks them or others, they only quote the falsehoods that someone told them. Some examples: 1. I constantly see EV owners install 60A/11kWh service, costing them on average $10k when their driving needs don't require it. 2. People thinking they need more than 300mi of range and think they will run out of batteries like they do on their headphones. All of this needs an understanding of the aforementioned units and basic physics. But, you're not going to get that by just talking to people. Salespeople are especially not going to do that, they can't even do that for combustion cars.
- BatteryMountain 9mo ago
  Most households do not drive more than 100KM per day... yet people are obsessed with range. My next EV will be a small BYD (dolphin or dolphin surf), these things can get between 200KM and 400KM per FULL charge, depending on your speed and settings. If you use the "slow" wall charger (that doesn't require installation or modifications to home circuits), not only will the batteries last longer, it will easily charge up your 100KM actual drive range in a couple of hours, typically overnight. If you empty the battery each day and recharge it each night, that nets you 300KM per charge, or 2100KM per week. I don't know a single person or family that does 2100KM a week with their cars. So the whole range anxiety is rubbish. Just plug in every night and go to bed and tomorrow you have another 300km available. Oh and then there are public fast chargers if you do get stuck. I live in Africa and this is solved problem. Sorry for the rant..your comment about the expensive charger installations makes my blood boil as most people can just use the normal wall charger and charge overnight.
  - bombcar 9mo ago
    The thing with range is it's another "thing to worry about" - with a gas car, it's basically nothing to worry about unless you happen to be absolutely on empty and no time to fill up the tank (5-10 minutes unless you have to go way out of your way for gas; rare). It's like when phones went from 8-10 hour capacity to over a day; suddenly it wasn't a thing you think about anymore.
dcchambers 9mo ago
I don't think that's the only thing holding the technology back. The only EV pickups in the US are like $60-$120K. Price is a huge barrier to entry. Average sale price, per Gemini: - GMC Hummer EV: $105,600 - Rivian R1T: $91,500 - Tesla Cybertruck: $88,300 - GMC Sierra EV: $82,500 - Chevrolet Silverado EV: $78,200 - Ford F-150 Lightning: $65,400 There needs to be a sub $40K EV pickup for it to be a real option for many.

mdavid626 9mo ago

I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.

ceejayoz 9mo ago
Thanks for illustrating the point.
- loeg 9mo ago
  They have worse prices (higher) and worse range (lower, particularly for towing). These aren't misconceptions. (My only car is an EV that I'm happy with. But lying about EVs doesn't benefit advocates.)
  - fullstop 9mo ago
    Obviously this is slanted by tax credits, but the EV that I have shares a name with the existing gas model and was less expensive. EVs aren't for everything, but mine fits my use case perfectly.
    - loeg 9mo ago
      I'd be interested to hear which model, because that's pretty remarkable.
      - fullstop 9mo ago
        Equinox EV. Now that the tax credits have expired it is a different story. The 2025 gas version's MSRP was about 30k, and the electric one was about 35k with a $7500 tax credit.
        loeg 9mo ago
        Ok, thanks. Current 2026 base trim prices are 29k for the ICE and 35k for the EV. If you told me GM was eating thinner unit margins on the EV version, I wouldn't be shocked either.
        fullstop 9mo ago
        It's been a good car. Maintenance, so far, has been tire rotations and wiper fluid.
  - ceejayoz 9mo ago
    > They have worse prices (higher) Does this factor in cost of ownership? Gas, oil changes, less complexity? > worse range (lower, particularly for towing) Towing reduces a gas powered car’s range, too.
    - mdavid626 9mo ago
      (Towing) You can fill it up in 5 min. Not true for EV.
      - ceejayoz 9mo ago
        Pop in for a pee and a snack. In the 15-20 mins that takes, you'll have a good amount of charge. Towing is also a bit of an edge case. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz... > According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
      - rootusrootus 9mo ago
        Hell, ain't true for any gas pickup I've owned, either. Big tanks, and often temperamental bastards that have to be babysat and won't take fuel at full pump speed in any case. Most road trip stops, according to the AAA, are 15 minutes anyway. Only on the Internet does everyone take 5 minutes to refuel.
        loeg 9mo ago
        ~60 kWh still takes 18 minutes to charge at 200kW, and 200kW is a relatively optimistic average charge speed for most EVs at this time. Bigger batteries, or slower charge rates, take longer.
        rootusrootus 9mo ago
  - WorldMaker 9mo ago
    They have artificially worse prices in the US where EVs are mostly only getting sold as "luxury" vehicles and competition is hobbled by dealer networks and dealer laws and import tariffs. Most other parts of the world EVs are starting to be cheaper than the equivalent ICE in the same category. Range often doesn't need to get better, the impression of range needs to change. That's where a lot of misconceptions play into effect, over-focusing on things like gas-station-like charging stations over at-home charging. Over-focusing on "zero to full tank/battery statistics" when no one keeps a gas vehicle with a full tank overnight every night. Over-focusing on high speed charging and ignoring boring but useful "Level 1" charging, which is "just about everywhere" because our society has been building electrical outlets for a long time. Sure, the experience changes in things like long distance trips, but experience changes aren't "worse" by default of being a change.
    - phainopepla2 9mo ago
      I still have to pay the price whether it's artificial or not
MostlyStable 9mo ago
I can do a ten hour road trip with a family of four plus a dog in a used (2022) EV that I got for ~30k last year. I think the idea that price and range are problems is exactly the misconception that op was taking about. They are somewhat more expensive, although when I originally did the calculus, fuel savings made up the difference in monthly payments for a new vehicle, but that's going to vary a lot. The is a very small proportion of people for whom range is a legitimate concern.
- alistairSH 9mo ago
  Now do the range/time/stops calculation with a travel trailer. Yes, if we're talking about normal family travel, an EV works fine for many trips (though there are still charging "dead spots" in parts of the country - looking at you WV). But, "truck stuff" like towing, they aren't there yet. Maybe in a few years when we get the next generation of battery and charger tech.
  - Workaccount2 9mo ago
    In truth you cannot really do this because range is a function of drag, not really weight. So if you are towing a 2000lb empty box mobile home it's gonna be worse than towing an 8000lb flat bed of decorative boulders.
    - alistairSH 9mo ago
      Yep. It takes a massive battery (and massive "normal" range) to pull off towing any distance. Unless I'm wrong, only the Chevy Silverado EV has the range (480ish) to make a reasonable tow vehicle, but only with the big battery, which pushes the price north of $90k.
    - mmmlinux 9mo ago
      AgingWheels on youtube did a video testing exactly this.
- IncreasePosts 9mo ago
  I actually enjoy doing road trips in my tesla more so than in ICEs, because of the forced breaks. With ICEs, stops would be either for food or for bathroom breaks. A lot of times just eating in the car while driving. But for a 10 hour drive I am forced to take 4 20 minute stops - so once every 2 hours. This ends up making me feel a lot better at the end of the trip and also gives you "guilt free" time to enjoy a random park you've never been to, or sit down and have a meal. So, lets say 80 minutes of added time for a 10 hour trip, vs maybe 40 minutes that I would have added in my gas guzzler. 40 minutes extra on a 10 hour trip just isn't that big of a deal to me and especially so considering all the benefits from walking around for a bit or seeing some new places. Obviously you could do that same thing in an ICE car, but I feel the pressure to keep moving so it hits different.
nikcub 9mo ago
Resale value is starting to ward some people off. You can buy 1-2 year old used Teslas and BYD's in Australia for ~30% below retail. Meanwhile Toyota hybrids not just retain their value but there have been moments where used RAV4's are listed above retail because the waitlist for new was so long.
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- legobmw99 9mo ago
  The poor resale market for EVs just means that people who actually have some understanding of the battery lifespans can get very good deals on 1-2 year old cars
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  Tesla is a special case because they manipulate their pricing on a monthly, sometimes daily basis, and in the past they've changed the price quite significantly. In the US, the tax credits also really screw with the market dynamics. Lots of people think the car depreciates really quickly because they don't realize the original buyer didn't pay MSRP. I paid $20K under MSRP for my Lightning and in the just over a year I've owned it, the value has dropped about 7-8K. Pretty normal for the first year of a new vehicle.
  - simondotau 9mo ago
    Most other car prices are "manipulated" on a minute-by-minute basis, insofar as pricing is different for each customer, based on their their willingness to go hard in negotiation, manufacturer incentives, demand levels, stock levels, finance packages, and the current mood of the dealership principal. The difference with Tesla is that their current "best price" is published out in the open.
_ea1k 9mo ago
Exactly, price is a huge problem. IIRC, the average selling price of F-150 is ~50k. The extended range Lightning tended to be $60k and up. Sure, it had AWD, but lots of people didn't need that. The Cybertruck is even more expensive. Both had huge preorders when they were announced at ~50k.
- rootusrootus 9mo ago
  My 2024 Lightning Flash was just under 51K, FWIW. Extended range, plenty of toys, definitely not the base model. I admit I was also under the impression they were expensive, and I was shopping for a Powerboost F150 first, until someone told me that MSRP was a lie.
Workaccount2 9mo ago
Range is the misconception, because people view range through the "sit and fill up then drive till empty" paradigm. That is not how EVs work or how they should be used. They should be charged overnight/when you are doing something else, and on road trips should be charged to align with other stops even if those stops are 10 minutes. It's rare that I have ever done the "sit in the car for 40 minutes waiting for charge", and extremely common to do the "Put car on charger for 13 minutes while going into [insert any of the gazillion places with chargers in the parking lot] to use the bathroom, stretch legs, and get a snack, or see a landmark" Also you usually structure it so you arrive at your destination with very low charge, because you fill up while there. I've yet to be at a hotel with a gas pump in the lot. Again, EVs function differently than gas, and that change of paradigm really gets people ruffled up and confused.
- mdavid626 9mo ago
  That’s exactly the problem. I’d be happy to use an EV daily, as I drive short distances. But when I drive longer, then I don’t want to waste hours on charging. The other day I drove 700km in just about 5.5 hours (German Autobahn). Few stops to pee. With EV that would be few hours more (!). If this doesn’t bother you, then it’s fine. It matters to me though. Sometimes I also drive early in the morning 600km, and in the afternoon back, so I’m home until 22:00. With EV, that’s just impossible.
  - plorkyeran 9mo ago
    As long as there's a fast charging station somewhere along the route you'd need more like 30 minutes to charge midway through, not multiple hours. You also surely recognize that your driving patterns are very atypical and a car not working for them says very little about how suitable the car is for the market as a whole.
    - mdavid626 9mo ago
      Assuming car can charge that fast. This is why I said “price and range”. Renault 5 EV charges with 11kW.
Workaccount2 9mo ago
A 600 mile trip can (theoretically) be done with 1 charge, because you leave home with full range, and arrive with 0 charge (and fill up overnight). That one charge is done while eating dinner, or spaced out in increments over the course of the trip, stops which you would take anyway. I know few people who want to bang out 10 hours without stopping for at least 1-2 hours over the course of the trip. And those who do, can be the edge case with gas cars. So you need to go 600 miles, and you need 1 full charge worth of energy during that. If that one charge takes 1 hour, you can also break it up into four 15 minute sessions at any time of your chosing. I'm sorry, but almost no regular person does 10 hours without at least four 15 minute stops. Range is not at all the problem people make it out to be.
- mdavid626 9mo ago
  Which EV can go 600 miles with one charge, or with so little charging? How much does that car cost? Are you assuming, that every charger on the way is 200kW?
  - Kirby64 9mo ago
    Lucid Grand Touring can do it in one charge (that lasts ~45 minutes). Expensive, but it could do it. I did Shreveport, LA to Pesos, TX as an example. If you're OK with 2 charging stops, an Ioniq 6 or a Tesla Model 3 will work just fine. Also, charging speed is irrelevant to how many stops you need. Most chargers are >150kW these days, though. If you truly want to minimize charging stops, you'd be better served charging 3+ times for shorter periods of time, though.
    - selimthegrim 9mo ago
      Pecos?
      - Kirby64 9mo ago
        I picked Shreveport, LA as a starting location and went west towards El Paso until I found a city that was slightly over 600 miles of distance. The cities are mostly irrelevant unless you pick something that is exceptionally hilly such as routes through mountain ranges or something.
rootusrootus 9mo ago
Depends a lot on the particular example. My Lightning was less expensive than the Powerboost I had been shopping for originally. And 250-300 miles is well beyond my typical daily driving range requirement (and Superchargers are pretty plentiful in most of the areas I ever find myself).

threetonesun 9mo ago

An F-150 Lightning and Cybertruck weigh somewhere between 6000 and 7000 pounds, so I personally think of them the same way as if you replaced your horse with a hippo. It's not hard to convince people to move to electric, just make it such a better economic proposition that it would be silly not to.

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rootusrootus 9mo ago
No pickup is light. A Lightning weighs about the same as a gasser F250, and less than a diesel F250.
morshu9001 9mo ago
I don't need a pickup truck, but if I ever did, I'd get whatever my landscaper has. Unlike most people with Rivians, Lightnings, Cybertrucks, Ridgelines, and Raptors, he totally relies on that truck for work. So far it's Tacoma. Maybe some day he'll have an EV instead.
- bombcar 9mo ago
  I knew someone who had a Tacoma for construction work; he got it because everyone had one. Later he had to take it in to the shop and they gave him a loaner cargo van, and from then on he regretted not getting a cargo van instead of a truck. The vast majority of what he did with the truck was carry tools, which are easier to access in a van; the few times he carried materials he would have to unload the whole truck or get the trailer anyway.

subpixel 9mo ago

I disagree. I really want a Lightning but live in a very rural place, weekend in an even more rural place, and need to pull a trailer pretty often. I already have a plug-in hybrid that gets 40+ miles/charge and have opined all over the internet that the perfect car is one that gets 100+ miles/charge before firing any gas engine. It sounds like the next Lightning will give me that though I don’t put much stock in their promises. Personally the Scout is too bougie but it does similarly.

idontwantthis 9mo ago
I don’t get plug in hybrids. All other engine types save you more money compared to the next less efficient alternative the more you use them, but plugins get closer to the less efficient alternative (regular hybrid) the more you use them. Add in the approximately 25% price hike over the hybrid version when there is one and it makes no sense to me.
- danans 9mo ago
  > but plugins get closer to the less efficient alternative (regular hybrid) the more you use them. As long as most of your drive cycle fits within the EV range of the plugin hybrid, they are cheaper to operate than a regular hybrid. The crossover point depends on the drive cycle and the cost of electricity vs gasoline. I had a plug-in hybrid SUV that got 2.2miles/kWh in EV mode, which covered 75% of the miles I drove. The net savings were significant vs an equivalent plain hybrid SUV in my area, which would get basically the same gasoline miles/gal.
  - idontwantthis 9mo ago
    But the problem is that means you drove a minuscule amount so if you’d bought a hybrid you would have still used very little gas and your car would have been much cheaper. Generously, the full range of a plugin hybrid is equivalent to about a gallon of gas.
    - danans 9mo ago

danans 9mo ago

> It's a shame the Lightning got discontinued. > As an EV owner, it sucks that the main thing holding the technology back is misconceptions and misunderstanding, rather than actual practical matters. The F150 Lighting (and the Cybertruck) are failing precisely because it was impractical. It was expensive, has limited range when doing actual "pickup truck" work, like hauling tons of construction materials. It was built for the very niche market of buyers at the intersection of luxury pickups and EVs. People who buy huge luxury pickups tend not to want EVs, and people who buy EVs tend not to want huge luxury pickup trucks. A practical work truck needs to be smaller, less luxurious, and less expensive, electric or not. If Ford follows through and releases a plugin-hybrid Maverick with 150ish miles of EV range plus the onboard generator, that would be ideal. A pure EV drivetrain on the other hand is incredibly practical for daily commuter and even long distance travel - assuming you have home charging - but not for hauling tons of stuff long distances.

Workaccount2 9mo ago
The lighting is fine for towing, especially the type that people usually do. You can tow up to 10,000lbs and the truck has ridiculous power to pull it. What you can't do it tow it long distances (>90mi, worst case) without 40 minute stops every 1.5 hours. That sucks. But the truth is very few truck owners are towing huge loads long distances. However, if you are pulling your lawn care trailer around town, you will not have a problem, because every day you start with a full charge. As an aside, the main killer of range for a trailer is a function of speed and drag. Low drag trailers driven at highway speeds (60-65) have marginal impacts on range, regardless of weight. Again, the whole thing is ridden with misconceptions and misunderstandings. The majority of people who tow stuff, can still tow stuff while reaping cheaper operating costs.
- cosmic_cheese 9mo ago
  > But the truth is very few truck owners are towing huge loads long distances. This pattern also applies more broadly. Most people don't actually need to drive 400 miles without stopping, don't actually need an SUV, and in some cases don't actually need a truck. For a huge swath of the population some variation on a hybrid/electric hatchback/wagon or minivan is actually the best match for their needs, but practicality is rarely the prevailing factor in vehicle purchase decisions.

alistairSH 9mo ago

...misconceptions and misunderstanding, rather than actual practical matters. What's the range of an F-150 Lightning when towing a small travel trailer? The Rivian R1T is ~150 miles give or take. I assume the F-150 is similar. At least for towing, the math isn't great. Especially when you add in the cost - my Honda Ridgeline was $42k in 2021. EV trucks are roughly double that amount.

redeeman 9mo ago
of course your ridgeline has other ways to hurt you :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyjfbS7MMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWyjfbS7MMA
- alistairSH 9mo ago
  Funny because it's true. It's the most boring and practical vehicle I've ever owned. But, it does everything, so I'm having a hard time convincing my wife I need a Ranger Raptor or (used) AMG GLE.
  - k12sosse 9mo ago
    Don't forget it only drinks premium fuel. The #1 reason to avoid the raptor, otherwise it's very fun. Test drive the tremor Lariat. Sure it's not the 3.0L but it costs a third to operate for a year, and you still go too fast in sport mode.
    - alistairSH 9mo ago
      I don't think the Tremor is available in the US, at least not in '25/'26.
rootusrootus 9mo ago
> my Honda Ridgeline was $42k in 2021. EV trucks are roughly double that amount My Lightning was <$51K in 2024.

frogperson 9mo ago

The main thing holding EV back is the oil industry, not the tech. The US is the only country lagging on EV and its all because the industry puts so much effort in to squashing all progress. EVs are simpler and cheaper. Look at how fast adoption is growing outside the US. If US citizens could buy a BYD for the same price as in China, the the US auto makers and oil companies would be in trouble.

xiphias2 9mo ago
It's not only US, it's global. I drive quite a lot throught southern Europe with my EV, and it's super frustrating that gas stations have the infrastructure on the highway while for my EV I have to go just outside the highway to a fast charger (wasting time), then I need to pay again (and waste a lot of time to go through the gate) to get back on the highway for example in Italy.
- thatsit 9mo ago
  Toll gates in general are a waste of time. I use bip&go + telepass lanes in Italy to get through them faster.
  - xiphias2 9mo ago
    I will order it, thanks! I see that it's good for 4 countries, that's great
morshu9001 9mo ago
US was the first to make EVs mainstream
- yndoendo 9mo ago
  US was also the one that started the solar panel industry during the cold war. After the cold war the politicians saw no value in it and a lot of the IP was sold to China. China is now out pacing the technology in solar. [0] It is not about being first it is about continual investment to do it better. China are also the ones that have the most electric infrastructure to greatly reduce their reliance on foreign countries because of that momentum they kept up. [0] https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537070/taming-the-sun/ https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262537070/taming-the-sun/

m463 9mo ago

Yes, I've had conversations with ice owners and the misconceptions are enormous in their minds. Practically speaking¹, normal people could buy a tesla and drive it like a gas car, except with a full tank of gas every morning. They could still drive across the state once a month to grandma's and they could supercharge if range got low. This is due to a couple things that were not in place for early EVs. - teslas have a lot of range/battery compared to early EVs - superchargers are in many locations, have plentiful charging spots, and are reliable - teslas have a good UI to navigate and charge [1] 99% of the time. If you're an apartment dweller in the artic circle with a supercharger 2000 miles away, please scroll onwards.

morshu9001 9mo ago
It's not 99% of the time, it's for people who own single-family homes. Apartment dwellers maaaybe have EV spots but can't leave their cars there.
- NoLinkToMe 9mo ago
  I think OP has it right. Tesla with lowest range has 430km, highest range 650. Let's average it to 500km. The average American driver drives 60km per day. In other words you need to charge less than every 8 days. You can charge to 80% in about 20-30 minutes. In other words if you find yourself near a charge (easy) for 20-30 minutes a week (easy), then on average there is no range issue. You're either in a rural area in a single-family home with home charging, or in low-density urban area with single family home charging, or in a dense urban area with lots of public charging. Very few sit outside these three categories that don't enable them home charging or 20-30 minutes a week public charging. And that's only going one direction. The number of fastchargers 10x'd in ten years, the range of the model S grew by 50% in the last 15 years, the charging speeds roughly tripled. Sufficient charging infrastructure seems like a solved problem, resolving it is a matter of a mere operational roll-out everywhere rather than a political/technical/economical challenge, a matter of when, not if, and a matter of increasingly smaller pockets of the country that are yet to be fully connected. (whether it's 1% or some other small percentage, range shouldn't be a driving factor for tesla sales anymore).

Affric 9mo ago

The main thing holding them back for me is the range. A few times a year I do quite long drives, sometimes you get the odd road closure and you've added a day to your trip at best, could be stranded at worst. There will be a phase shift where there are lots of fast chargers but in Australia we aren't quite there yet. Lots of my friends have EVs. The busiest routes are pretty good. On the one hand I will be a late adopter of the tech but on the other at least I know it will be a significant upgrade when I get there.

aggregator-ios 9mo ago

Spot on. The misconceptions, even from other EV owners is astounding. People are constantly confused about kWh vs kW, Amps, voltage, temperature, range, mi/kWh, etc. Even PhD Computer Science and other highly educated folks who have owned EVs for a long time can't quite communicate the difference between those units of measurement. So of course when a curious person asks them or others, they only quote the falsehoods that someone told them. Some examples: 1. I constantly see EV owners install 60A/11kWh service, costing them on average $10k when their driving needs don't require it. 2. People thinking they need more than 300mi of range and think they will run out of batteries like they do on their headphones. All of this needs an understanding of the aforementioned units and basic physics. But, you're not going to get that by just talking to people. Salespeople are especially not going to do that, they can't even do that for combustion cars.

BatteryMountain 9mo ago
Most households do not drive more than 100KM per day... yet people are obsessed with range. My next EV will be a small BYD (dolphin or dolphin surf), these things can get between 200KM and 400KM per FULL charge, depending on your speed and settings. If you use the "slow" wall charger (that doesn't require installation or modifications to home circuits), not only will the batteries last longer, it will easily charge up your 100KM actual drive range in a couple of hours, typically overnight. If you empty the battery each day and recharge it each night, that nets you 300KM per charge, or 2100KM per week. I don't know a single person or family that does 2100KM a week with their cars. So the whole range anxiety is rubbish. Just plug in every night and go to bed and tomorrow you have another 300km available. Oh and then there are public fast chargers if you do get stuck. I live in Africa and this is solved problem. Sorry for the rant..your comment about the expensive charger installations makes my blood boil as most people can just use the normal wall charger and charge overnight.
- bombcar 9mo ago
  The thing with range is it's another "thing to worry about" - with a gas car, it's basically nothing to worry about unless you happen to be absolutely on empty and no time to fill up the tank (5-10 minutes unless you have to go way out of your way for gas; rare). It's like when phones went from 8-10 hour capacity to over a day; suddenly it wasn't a thing you think about anymore.

dcchambers 9mo ago

I don't think that's the only thing holding the technology back. The only EV pickups in the US are like $60-$120K. Price is a huge barrier to entry. Average sale price, per Gemini: - GMC Hummer EV: $105,600 - Rivian R1T: $91,500 - Tesla Cybertruck: $88,300 - GMC Sierra EV: $82,500 - Chevrolet Silverado EV: $78,200 - Ford F-150 Lightning: $65,400 There needs to be a sub $40K EV pickup for it to be a real option for many.