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Google Pay

164 points by seanieb 10mo ago

mau 10mo ago
https://archive.is/2025.12.29-103247/https://m.independent.ie/business/digital-euro-what-it-is-and-how-we-will-use-the-new-form-of-cash/a165973061.html https://archive.is/2025.12.29-103247/https://m.independent.i...
mentalgear 10mo ago
Yes please ! These kind of actions are EXACTLY what the EU / citizens need to regain trust again in international institutes, and make them feel in their immediate every day life how they benefit from them! Hopefully, this will become a role model for other countries as well, extracting complete financially power back out of the hands of surveillance capitalism - as privacy is also a big aspect of this (nothing tracks you as confident as your transactions) ! PS: those arguing that then the "state" will be able to see your transactions: a. this wholly depends on the implemented system. I trust democratic and ruled-by-law institutions way more than financial players always operating at the most legal gray to extract most profits. b. I rather want one highly secured state financial database, than 100s of smaller ones that sell (or leak) your data (as it is right now). PPS: Also a "Apple/Google Wallet" equivalent app mandatory on phone's should be the next logical step to cut those data-harvesters completely out of your private life.
- Loic 10mo ago
  I hope they will learn from the success of the Brazilian PIX system.
- isodev 10mo ago
  To work-around Apple's draconian NFC for payment rules, many providers aligned on a standard QR-code based solution for payments. I think the Wero service initiative took that even further by having banks work together to support the common format. As for privacy - at least in Benelux, there are robust laws in place that make it very difficult to even request payment history from personal accounts. And generally for the EU, all that regulation around GDPR and other data related directives is at play here by default, so there are multiple layers of protections and guardrails to prevent snoopy corporations or other entities from getting such financial info.
- Saline9515 10mo ago
  A single centralized financial database gives a lot of leverage for additional taxation or costly "compliance requirements" by the EU bureaucracy. Beware of what you wish for.
  - kevin061 10mo ago
    Don't do tax fraud.
    - Saline9515 10mo ago
      That's not what I imply. I'm saying that it eases the creation of new taxes, which are ever-increasing in the EU due to the social welfare costs that increase with immigration and aging populations. Or new compliance obligations, such as recently the new need to provide a source of fund if you buy a watch worth more than 10k€. The watch seller has to then pay a specialized company to analyze it, the customer loses time on trying to get the documents, you leak private data to unknown parties and compliance agents will know everything about you. So much for the "privacy".
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
spwa4 10mo ago
> Every part of the digital euro will be built by Europeans. Every company hired to work on it must be European owned. If the ownership changes, if it falls into non-European hands, that company is dropped from the project. A substitute takes its place. ... but you need your Apple or Android phone to use it at all?
- wiseowise 10mo ago
  Baby steps.
- kwanbix 10mo ago
  Those china built products you mean?
- Etheryte 10mo ago
  There is massive incentive for all banks to get onboard with this as soon as it's available. Paying a few percent vs nothing at all is the easiest sales argument ever.
- rafaelmn 10mo ago
  This sets a bad precedent. I'm a software contractor from EU, but I don't usually work for EU clients, and I don't want to see the trade wars spill into contracting/dev work - but fully expect it given current trends.
- arnvald 10mo ago
  You can’t have it all at once. Hopefully one day there’s an alternative OS that’s not owned by and American company, but that shouldn’t stop us from building other things in the meantime
  - rauli_ 10mo ago
    We already have Sailfish OS but no one is using it.
    - vrighter 10mo ago
Havoc 10mo ago
Mixed feelings about the digital aspect of it (and thus tracking), but it is certainly time to derisk on US system dependency.
- vrighter 10mo ago
  Last I checked, the application they were working on relied on google services. So at the end of the day it's still an american company that could decide to not let you run it if they want to.
  - jeroenhd 10mo ago
    The application requires remote attestation, like any serious financial application handling money probably should, and unfortunately there are no alternatives to Apple or Google on this front at the moment. However, this payment system also comes with physical dedicated bank cards that can be used with the new system. There is no need to run an app.
    - vrighter 10mo ago
      I can't use my banking app. Because of some apps I installed from f-droid, and because I modified my open source keyboard and built my own. Therefore I am the only person in the world running this specific application, since I tailored it for myself. No other system has ever seen that application, so attestation fails on my device. It's not even rooted. Meanwhile, on my linux PC with full root access, because I am the admin, this somehow isn't an issue. No, attestation is not needed. It never was before, and it still isn't, especially because it is NOT required on systems that have way more chance of being set up insecurely. There's nothing stopping me from viewing the source code of the page. There is nothing stopping me from taking a screenshot. There is nothing stopping me from doing anything. I am root on my machine, and that's ok there. Why is remote attestation required? Why the hell would I even want google to "vouch for me" as a european?
      - ben_w 9mo ago
        > Meanwhile, on my linux PC with full root access, because I am the admin, this somehow isn't an issue. No, attestation is not needed. It never was before, and it still isn't, especially because it is NOT required on systems that have way more chance of being set up insecurely. There's nothing stopping me from viewing the source code of the page. There is nothing stopping me from taking a screenshot. There is nothing stopping me from doing anything. I am root on my machine, and that's ok there. Why is remote attestation required? Why the hell would I even want google to "vouch for me" as a european? Swiss-cheese security sprinkled upon grandfathering in PCs. The former: there's no such thing as perfect security. The latter: PC security model is awful, but we always had it and it would break stuff to get rid of it entirely.
seydor 10mo ago
bank fees will still be an issue. This thing in the works for years and years. Better to just connect the myriad of instant bank payment systems that already exist all over europe than to invent another standard.
- rauli_ 10mo ago
  Future goal of the "digital euro" is to get rid of the banks.
  - seydor 10mo ago
    most people will use it through bank accounts , so not much difference
    - samus 10mo ago
      Traditional banks have already been severely disrupted by financial start-ups that only charge low fees. People will switch if they feel the cost pressure.
      - nly 10mo ago
        I don't know about the mainland but in the UK most fintech startups ultimately try to get a bank license and become fully fledged banks.
        samus 10mo ago
        That's just the legal red tape to further encroach on the turf of traditional banks. They are still significantly cheaper.
  - pipes 10mo ago
    The EU is planning on getting rid of banks ???
    - 10mo ago
jryio 10mo ago
Electricity, water, roads, bridges are all public infrastructure. Why should payments be any different. Without summoning the decentralized block-based "currency" crowd, I would like to point out that in the entire lifespan of such technologies they never have received widespread institutional or legislative buy-in like this EU initiative to build a digital Euro. While USDC and BTC have been used as defacto currencies in some countries there is truly no equivalent adoption in any meaningfully mature economic zone such as EU/NA/CN. I welcome sovereign digital payments initiatives.
- Saline9515 10mo ago
  Electricity, water, roads and bridges are natural monopolies. Payments aren't and there is no reason for the State to monopolize it. Especially given the EU poor track record on fostering innovation. The EU bureaucrats will "regulate" it to the bone, increasing compliance costs for processors and mass surveillance. We'll be back to the start.
  - anhner 10mo ago
    > there is no reason for the State to monopolize it except relying on a foreign actor for the economy is a security risk?
    - Saline9515 10mo ago
      The alternative could be to foster competition to allow private local actors to emerge. Why do we need the State for this? The EU prevents sellers from surcharging depending on the type of credit card used, which led to the Visa/Mc duopoly and prevented local alternatives to compete on costs.
  - jryio 10mo ago
    There is already. Almost every country on earth has single state controlled currency. Fiat currency is already a natural monopoly on payments. Imagine if every time you wanted to pay for a train ride you had to put your money into an envelope, mail it to the United States, and wait for it to come back. That's VISA.
mytailorisrich 10mo ago
The insidious point, though is that it replaces the "US grip" by an "EU grip". By that I mean EU 'government' level over national states. I think that's actually the real aim like for many EU initiatives. The single curreny already pretty much nuked national sovereignty on key economic levers and this is a step further towards the dissolution of European nation states. The constant use of the term "sovereign" in Europe at the moment is highly ironic, if not a little 1984's doublespeak but people seem to swallow it hook, line, and sinker (see comments and reactions here).
- tonfa 10mo ago
  Doesn't strike me as bad, the alternative is for Europe to continue its slide into irrelevance (nobody cares about any of the small country individually, only united does it have some leverage against US/China/Russia)
  - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
    There is a huge gap between an united front on key issues when deemed in mutual interest and this great bulldozing of national sovereignty and identities. I also think that using "keeping up with the US/China" to justify it is a fallacious argument: The integration policy comes first and everything else are a posteriori arguments to justify it.
    - pjerem 10mo ago
      Can you tell me when was it better than nowadays ? The EU is far from perfect, but still I'm glad to be born after its creation than before. Because my grandparents were born before and they know what it was to be at war.
- samus 10mo ago
  That's not the case though. Currently, national sovereignty doesn't really exist in this regard as most countries don't have their own national payment system. Also, there already is a European system to settle transactions in Euro: TARGET2, though it is designed for use by banks and other financial institutions only. Edit: the EU becoming like 1984 is not what we should be wary of. Our societies becoming like "Brave New World" (control through hedonism instead of straightforward repression) is a much more realistic scenario.
hshdhdhj4444 10mo ago
We don’t need to speculate how this will work. India, with a population 3 times the size of the EU already did this more than half a decade ago. And it works brilliantly.
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  I don't believe the Indian system works based on cryptocurrency, so I don't think the same expectations can be held. The concept is hardly revolutionary within Europe, though. Back in 1996, the Dutch "ChipKnip" was introduced, where you could store a small amount of money directly on a bank card so payment terminals wouldn't need permanent internet access to process payments. This was abandoned when wireless payment technologies were introduced, but the concept has been around for decades. Like so many fine-working systems, this system only worked within one country. The EU is now trying to solve this problem for every member country, which means convincing banks and financial institutions that whatever reasoning blocked their participation in earlier non-American systems are now no longer a problem.
  - danaris 10mo ago
    ...And where does it indicate that this "digital euro" will be based on cryptocurrency? Nothing in the article appears to suggest that.
    - ffsm8 10mo ago
      https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... They explicitly differentiate themselves from crypto assets, and the only party issuing them seems to be European Central Bank. Doesn't sound like crypto to me either
- flowerthoughts 10mo ago
  Sweden, a counntry in the EU, did this in 2012. Then they introduced a (small) fee. Apparently Norway's Vipps is free for small amounts, but charges 1% for large. Too tempting for the EU not to play, but that will replace a duopoly with a monopoly, which will end up doing what monopolies have always done. "For the greater good" here is to incentivize competition.
mathverse 10mo ago
I have lost faith in European Union. All these things are just too little and too late. Why the heck did Thailand manage to create instant payment system that works across Asian countries and European Union did not even finish similar system inside the EU? Yes we have SEPA payments but these are useless in most payment-to-merchant type of payments across the EU. We already should have had such system widely used and accepted across the WHOLE UNION. I am glad we will have something but if I still need a VISA/MC card when I travel abroad ill just be constantly reminded of stupidity and inefficiency of the EU.
- kevin061 10mo ago
  You have lost faith in the EU because they want to do exactly what you want ...? Does the Thai payment system work in a German restaurant? Then why should the EU one work in Malaysia? Can you pay with WeChat in France? Can you pay with CashApp in Ireland? This is a very silly comment. I for one more than welcome this new payment system.
  - mathverse 10mo ago
    You misread this comment. Thai payment system works across the Asian countries (they are not in a UNION are they?). You can use that payment system if you have a bank in Singapore,Korea,Indonesia etc. Instant no fee payments.
    - kevin061 10mo ago
      SEPA is instant and no fees outside the EU too, like Norway and UK. It's great Thailand has this, but I still fail to see how EU trying to copy Thailand (for a definition of copying) makes you lose faith in the EU. You would rather not have this no-fee payment system in the EU? How is this at all a negative thing?
      - mathverse 10mo ago
        >SEPA is instant and no fees outside the EU too, like Norway and UK. This is not the point. They need to be in SEPA for it to work. >It's great Thailand has this, but I still fail to see how EU trying to copy Thailand (for a definition of copying) makes you lose faith in the EU. You would rather not have this no-fee payment system in the EU? How is this at all a negative thing? The point is Thailand managed this due to economic, capitalist needs across different countries and cultures. The EU is a union and did not even manage to do that as well as Thailand.
jampekka 10mo ago
The ECB official claims that with the digital euro merchants will start to push towards the no-fee option. > "The merchant will probably say to the customer: ‘please pay by digital euro, or else you pay an extra fee’. Instead of handing over so much money to Mastercard or Visa, they will have the option of our not-for-profit payment engine.” But it's the EU who with the Payment Systems Directives bans merchants from passing the fees to customers. Annoying how this isn't even mentioned. Public officials should treat us as citizens of a democratic system, not subjects of techocratic bureaucracy to be managed with PR campaigns. That said, payment system as public service is kinda a no-brainer. Due to the lobbyist capture of EU I don't have too high hopes though.
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  While this is true, I've seen plenty of bank-backed ads basically stating "please try paying by card even if it's a small amount, it doesn't cost you extra anymore", sending practically free money towards Mastercard and Visa. Participating banks or even governments could easily set up an equivalent advertising campaign for their new system. The ability to have mobile payment without the prying eyes of the American government alone could be a good ad. I'm sure Trump will start another trade war if an ad actually voices that benefit, though. In theory, merchants can choose not to support certain payment processors. I can imagine a minimum-price supermarket chain like Lidl eventually dropping Visa and Mastercard to cut costs, for instance.
  - Saline9515 9mo ago
    Banks get kickbacks from the payment companies, so it's unlikely to happen.
- rognjen 10mo ago
  Businesses with slim margins in Germany simply do not have Visa/Mastercard -- only "EC", the German network. Thay means it's not a matter of passing on cost, but it's a choice for the consumer: cash or EC. If I had to guess, having subbbed to the EC network, or any of the other country specific ones, merchants would simply get the new one as well automatically. Similar things are happening with online ID where an EU-wide provider is being rolled out and if you as a service provider need KYC-type ID you integrate only with it. Under the hood the user can use any of the national IDs.
hexbin010 10mo ago
Digital euro aka digital currency total surveillance and control "Digital euro" sounds cute and modern though doesn't it. It'll fool many If you criticise it you're obviously pro America and pro Visa/MasterCard or pro Russia because you obviously want the EU to fail!! It's clever to bundle it all up in one initiative
rahimnathwani 10mo ago
This is about the 'Digital Euro', which seems to be both: - a central bank digital currency, and - a system for transferring this currency between people and businesses https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... It's not clear to me that it replaces Visa/Mastercard. If you have a problem with a vendor and you've paid by card, you have a chargeback as a last resort. Not so with cash or a CBDC.
- mathverse 10mo ago
  European cards typically cannot do chargeback.
  - rahimnathwani 10mo ago
    Do you mean Europe-based issuers of Visa- and Mastercard-branded credit and debit cards do not have chargeback processes?
    - jeroenhd 10mo ago
      Credit cards often have them, but subject to stricter terms than their American counterparts. I don't think I've seen a European debit card that offers charge back. You can often get your money back in case of fraud or timely-reported theft of your bank cards, but it's not easy.
      - mathverse 10mo ago
        Poorly worded on my part. Europeans typically get debit cards and not credit cards anyway
  - jeroenhd 10mo ago
    Credit cards often can, though European banks I've used don't do them as willy-nilly as American banks. With debit cards, charge backs are practically impossible unless payments were done in a very specific way that does not directly prove your authorization.
bytesandbits 10mo ago
it might work, it worked for Thailand. Yet in my experience EU solutions either work very well or fail spectacularly. Particularly when the EU commission is the main driver, they generally become just bureaucratic poodles. However I think this one will work. Yet it will take many years to build (side effect of slow-moving EU) and many more years to adoption. In any case, forget about this for at least 5 years. I do welcome it, but I think it should have happened 15 years ago and I dont understand why it took so long. And I might still be proven wrong and this won't work at all, and yet I wouldn't be surprised. But again this worked for Thailand, so in theory this could be done in EU.
- mathverse 10mo ago
  Many countries in EU will have a similar QR code payment system like Thailand based on SEPA. Slovakia is rolling out its own in 2026. The problem is to standardize all these things built on top of SEPA to work across the UNION.
  - csomar 10mo ago
    There is already a QR payment standard. You can pay a Thai-QR with a Malaysian Wallet.
    - mathverse 10mo ago
      PromptPay use is different from SEPA. My comment was meant that QR payments are already possible with SEPA in EU it's just there exist different systems built on top of SEPA which are not cross compatible and available across the member states.
      - csomar 10mo ago
        My point is, there is a standard for QR payments (I think it's ISO 5201 but it was a long time since I dealt with that). Cross-border support will depend on the country/bank support; but theoretically if everyone adopt it, you'll be able to scan any country QR and then use your wallet to transfer funds (assuming your bank support cross-border payments). I think ASEAN largely adhere to the standard though the cross-border part is limited to ASEAN.
vga42 10mo ago
This would be awesome. However, EU declaring this is a bit like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.
iamkonstantin 10mo ago
Nice. This also means sex workers (which are a legal and protected profession here) will finally be able to use the full range of card services without being subjected to the prudish views of Visa/Master Card. Same for adult entertainment websites and generally any service that doesn't align with the "US man in charge mindset". I think that alone makes it worth it.
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  Not just Visa/Master Card. Banks themselves have been known to deny business accounts to sex workers because of whatever reason they can think of, forcing them to use personal bank accounts that then get them banned because of "business use". The 3000 euro limit will pose a problem for these businesses, though I suppose you could just take out half a dozen cards and rotate funds.
  - iamkonstantin 10mo ago
    I think the friction really comes from their "partners" like MasterCard who are so averse to adult related services. Paying for adult entertainment is not tabu in most of Europe, being able to transact cashless... would be a very welcome improvement and even lift some of that business out of the grey zone.
- apexalpha 10mo ago
  Not really, in the Netherlands prostitution is legal but sexworkers have a hard time getting bank accounts. The banks are wary of the connection to human trafficking and the obvious 99% cash transactions.
  - isodev 10mo ago
    Because their card providers are Visa/MasterCard who are known to have these limitations. Having a way to operate without them in the loop will certainly lift such limitations
    - 10mo ago
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 10mo ago
Will I be able to use this to make purchases the government doesn't approve of? No? Then it is little different. Although all the stuff I want to buy that the government doesn't approve of comes from Japan and I doubt they'd accept it.
- zihotki 10mo ago
  Right now it's a bit opposite - you can't purchase using Visa/MC some services that are legal in your country but considered illegal in US. Visa/MC just won't allow that.
  - pipes 10mo ago
    And fixing it with a government monopoly doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 9mo ago
    I'd just be trading the censorious traits of the duopoly with the censorious traits of my government. Both of them hate japanese cartoons.
on_the_train 10mo ago
Yeah I'm not willingly giving eu anything, and certainly not (more of) my money. They have a straight track record of acting against their citizens with every single thing they do.
- wiseowise 10mo ago
  > They have a straight track record of acting against their citizens with every single thing they do. Care to give a couple of examples?
  - on_the_train 10mo ago
    Political and forbidden. This is only in the interest of the EU tyrants and absolutely no one else. And it'll cost another few billions
afarah1 10mo ago
With the hability to see and track every payment?
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
sligor 10mo ago
Aside of the fees, another important goal is political freedom against any US sanction on our citizen. We saw recently that ICC judges were excluded of Visa/Mastercard/... payment system source: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n...
michaelt 10mo ago
The real shot across the bow, for European politicians, was the US sanctions on International Criminal Court judges [1, 2] which cut them off from Visa and Mastercard - and got one judge's (European) bank account closed, because the bank's software couldn't enforce the sanctions (which would require e.g. no transactions using the dollar in currency conversion), short of closing the account. I think a lot of folks in Europe used to think there was some sort of red line America wouldn't cross, preferring to allow its (immensely profitable and dominant) tech companies to stay aloof of short-term "freedom fries" political squabbles. Turns out that's no longer the case, if it ever was. [1] https://www.thenational.scot/news/25639977.icc-judge-says-us-sanctions-affect-every-aspect-life/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/25639977.icc-judge-says-us... [2] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n...
Yizahi 10mo ago
That's one way to force people to use authoritarian CBDC currency. I'm guessing the adoption estimates weren't good enough, so now a carrot will be used for a while, to entice merchants to switch. Future European dictators are silently clapping in the corners, this will give them absolute financial control and a leverage over citizens, after they will be elected on some populist promises.
drnick1 10mo ago
Let me guess, this will only run on "certified" devices and not on Linux or FOSS Android phones...
kombine 10mo ago
I wish the UK won't be stupid and joins the initiative. I also do understand that the US will exert a lot of pressure on Brits to prevent this from happening.
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  The EU very purposefully made this all about the Euro. While I'm sure the UK could join in theoretically, there's no political will on the EU's side to support non-Euro currencies in this new system. Countries like Denmark and Hungary may be able to force the EU to work with their currencies, but the end goal of the ECB is to get every EU country to use the Euro eventually. As much as I'd like to pay in Euros in the UK, I don't think it'll happen.
  - kombine 10mo ago
    True, but not all EU countries use Euro, such as Poland, Czechia, Sweden and others. There is no way that they will be excluded from this initiative.
    - rsynnott 10mo ago
      I mean, they’re excluded from SEPA (except for euro-denominated bank accounts).
    - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
      This is about the Digital Euro so of course it is for the Euro area only [1]. In any case, as said, the UK would be very reluctant to join even if it could. [1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...
- mytailorisrich 10mo ago
  The UK rejected the Euro to retain sovereignty on monetary policy, and then left the EU altogether. In that respect it would be a bad move to join this even if they could.
rognjen 10mo ago
For everyone comparing an EU-wide initiative to country-specific ones keep in mind that EU is composed of 28 sovereign states. Many individual countries already have their payment systems, and have had for a long while. It's not equivalent to India, or the US. It'd be more comparable to ASEAN (11) or the Arab league (22).
- SideburnsOfDoom 10mo ago
  > Many individual countries already have their payment systems, and have had for a long while. Yes, but also Single Euro Payments Area (SEPA) is a thing already (1). SEPA instant has been live in some places since 2017 (2). 1) https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/sepa/html/index.en.htm... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area#SEPA_Instant_Credit_Transfer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area#SEPA...
ElectronBadger 10mo ago
Finally.
omnimus 10mo ago
Honestly this is a bit wierd. There already is payment network - SEPA. Many countries have instant bank transfers and i believe instant SEPA should be mandatory from 1. 1. 2026. There already are countries where it's extremely common to use QR payments (basically prefilled bank transfer). It's pushing VISA/Mastercard out. In typical european nature the first standard was SPAYD (short payment descriptor) from Austria/Czechia/Slovakia but yeah two years later Germany/Netherlands had to come up with their different format EPC QR. But who cares the differences are trivial - just different structure of the QR string. My bank app supports both. The only thing this system needs is mandatory notification system / api so the sellers can get fast confirmation of the payment. Then again some banks already do that so you just pick right bank as seller. Taking QR codes aside there is also Wero that is already running in many of the countries (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France). I am not sure what the hell is digital euro? Will they rename Wero to digital euro or whats going on?
stefandesu 10mo ago
I moved from Germany to Norway and it would be awesome if they could integrate with each other. I have yet to find a way to transfer money between my Norwegian bank account and my Revolut account without substantial fees (on top of currency conversion fees).

164 points by seanieb 10mo ago

mau 10mo ago

https://archive.is/2025.12.29-103247/https://m.independent.ie/business/digital-euro-what-it-is-and-how-we-will-use-the-new-form-of-cash/a165973061.html https://archive.is/2025.12.29-103247/https://m.independent.i...

mentalgear 10mo ago

Yes please ! These kind of actions are EXACTLY what the EU / citizens need to regain trust again in international institutes, and make them feel in their immediate every day life how they benefit from them! Hopefully, this will become a role model for other countries as well, extracting complete financially power back out of the hands of surveillance capitalism - as privacy is also a big aspect of this (nothing tracks you as confident as your transactions) ! PS: those arguing that then the "state" will be able to see your transactions: a. this wholly depends on the implemented system. I trust democratic and ruled-by-law institutions way more than financial players always operating at the most legal gray to extract most profits. b. I rather want one highly secured state financial database, than 100s of smaller ones that sell (or leak) your data (as it is right now). PPS: Also a "Apple/Google Wallet" equivalent app mandatory on phone's should be the next logical step to cut those data-harvesters completely out of your private life.

Loic 10mo ago
I hope they will learn from the success of the Brazilian PIX system.
isodev 10mo ago
To work-around Apple's draconian NFC for payment rules, many providers aligned on a standard QR-code based solution for payments. I think the Wero service initiative took that even further by having banks work together to support the common format. As for privacy - at least in Benelux, there are robust laws in place that make it very difficult to even request payment history from personal accounts. And generally for the EU, all that regulation around GDPR and other data related directives is at play here by default, so there are multiple layers of protections and guardrails to prevent snoopy corporations or other entities from getting such financial info.
Saline9515 10mo ago
A single centralized financial database gives a lot of leverage for additional taxation or costly "compliance requirements" by the EU bureaucracy. Beware of what you wish for.
- kevin061 10mo ago
  Don't do tax fraud.
  - Saline9515 10mo ago
    That's not what I imply. I'm saying that it eases the creation of new taxes, which are ever-increasing in the EU due to the social welfare costs that increase with immigration and aging populations. Or new compliance obligations, such as recently the new need to provide a source of fund if you buy a watch worth more than 10k€. The watch seller has to then pay a specialized company to analyze it, the customer loses time on trying to get the documents, you leak private data to unknown parties and compliance agents will know everything about you. So much for the "privacy".
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]

spwa4 10mo ago

> Every part of the digital euro will be built by Europeans. Every company hired to work on it must be European owned. If the ownership changes, if it falls into non-European hands, that company is dropped from the project. A substitute takes its place. ... but you need your Apple or Android phone to use it at all?

wiseowise 10mo ago
Baby steps.
kwanbix 10mo ago
Those china built products you mean?
Etheryte 10mo ago
There is massive incentive for all banks to get onboard with this as soon as it's available. Paying a few percent vs nothing at all is the easiest sales argument ever.
rafaelmn 10mo ago
This sets a bad precedent. I'm a software contractor from EU, but I don't usually work for EU clients, and I don't want to see the trade wars spill into contracting/dev work - but fully expect it given current trends.
arnvald 10mo ago
You can’t have it all at once. Hopefully one day there’s an alternative OS that’s not owned by and American company, but that shouldn’t stop us from building other things in the meantime
- rauli_ 10mo ago
  We already have Sailfish OS but no one is using it.
  - vrighter 10mo ago

Havoc 10mo ago

Mixed feelings about the digital aspect of it (and thus tracking), but it is certainly time to derisk on US system dependency.

vrighter 10mo ago
Last I checked, the application they were working on relied on google services. So at the end of the day it's still an american company that could decide to not let you run it if they want to.
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  The application requires remote attestation, like any serious financial application handling money probably should, and unfortunately there are no alternatives to Apple or Google on this front at the moment. However, this payment system also comes with physical dedicated bank cards that can be used with the new system. There is no need to run an app.
  - vrighter 10mo ago
    I can't use my banking app. Because of some apps I installed from f-droid, and because I modified my open source keyboard and built my own. Therefore I am the only person in the world running this specific application, since I tailored it for myself. No other system has ever seen that application, so attestation fails on my device. It's not even rooted. Meanwhile, on my linux PC with full root access, because I am the admin, this somehow isn't an issue. No, attestation is not needed. It never was before, and it still isn't, especially because it is NOT required on systems that have way more chance of being set up insecurely. There's nothing stopping me from viewing the source code of the page. There is nothing stopping me from taking a screenshot. There is nothing stopping me from doing anything. I am root on my machine, and that's ok there. Why is remote attestation required? Why the hell would I even want google to "vouch for me" as a european?
    - ben_w 9mo ago
      > Meanwhile, on my linux PC with full root access, because I am the admin, this somehow isn't an issue. No, attestation is not needed. It never was before, and it still isn't, especially because it is NOT required on systems that have way more chance of being set up insecurely. There's nothing stopping me from viewing the source code of the page. There is nothing stopping me from taking a screenshot. There is nothing stopping me from doing anything. I am root on my machine, and that's ok there. Why is remote attestation required? Why the hell would I even want google to "vouch for me" as a european? Swiss-cheese security sprinkled upon grandfathering in PCs. The former: there's no such thing as perfect security. The latter: PC security model is awful, but we always had it and it would break stuff to get rid of it entirely.

seydor 10mo ago

bank fees will still be an issue. This thing in the works for years and years. Better to just connect the myriad of instant bank payment systems that already exist all over europe than to invent another standard.

rauli_ 10mo ago
Future goal of the "digital euro" is to get rid of the banks.
- seydor 10mo ago
  most people will use it through bank accounts , so not much difference
  - samus 10mo ago
    Traditional banks have already been severely disrupted by financial start-ups that only charge low fees. People will switch if they feel the cost pressure.
    - nly 10mo ago
      I don't know about the mainland but in the UK most fintech startups ultimately try to get a bank license and become fully fledged banks.
      - samus 10mo ago
        That's just the legal red tape to further encroach on the turf of traditional banks. They are still significantly cheaper.
- pipes 10mo ago
  The EU is planning on getting rid of banks ???
  - 10mo ago

jryio 10mo ago

Electricity, water, roads, bridges are all public infrastructure. Why should payments be any different. Without summoning the decentralized block-based "currency" crowd, I would like to point out that in the entire lifespan of such technologies they never have received widespread institutional or legislative buy-in like this EU initiative to build a digital Euro. While USDC and BTC have been used as defacto currencies in some countries there is truly no equivalent adoption in any meaningfully mature economic zone such as EU/NA/CN. I welcome sovereign digital payments initiatives.

Saline9515 10mo ago
Electricity, water, roads and bridges are natural monopolies. Payments aren't and there is no reason for the State to monopolize it. Especially given the EU poor track record on fostering innovation. The EU bureaucrats will "regulate" it to the bone, increasing compliance costs for processors and mass surveillance. We'll be back to the start.
- anhner 10mo ago
  > there is no reason for the State to monopolize it except relying on a foreign actor for the economy is a security risk?
  - Saline9515 10mo ago
    The alternative could be to foster competition to allow private local actors to emerge. Why do we need the State for this? The EU prevents sellers from surcharging depending on the type of credit card used, which led to the Visa/Mc duopoly and prevented local alternatives to compete on costs.
- jryio 10mo ago
  There is already. Almost every country on earth has single state controlled currency. Fiat currency is already a natural monopoly on payments. Imagine if every time you wanted to pay for a train ride you had to put your money into an envelope, mail it to the United States, and wait for it to come back. That's VISA.

mytailorisrich 10mo ago

The insidious point, though is that it replaces the "US grip" by an "EU grip". By that I mean EU 'government' level over national states. I think that's actually the real aim like for many EU initiatives. The single curreny already pretty much nuked national sovereignty on key economic levers and this is a step further towards the dissolution of European nation states. The constant use of the term "sovereign" in Europe at the moment is highly ironic, if not a little 1984's doublespeak but people seem to swallow it hook, line, and sinker (see comments and reactions here).

tonfa 10mo ago
Doesn't strike me as bad, the alternative is for Europe to continue its slide into irrelevance (nobody cares about any of the small country individually, only united does it have some leverage against US/China/Russia)
- mytailorisrich 10mo ago
  There is a huge gap between an united front on key issues when deemed in mutual interest and this great bulldozing of national sovereignty and identities. I also think that using "keeping up with the US/China" to justify it is a fallacious argument: The integration policy comes first and everything else are a posteriori arguments to justify it.
  - pjerem 10mo ago
    Can you tell me when was it better than nowadays ? The EU is far from perfect, but still I'm glad to be born after its creation than before. Because my grandparents were born before and they know what it was to be at war.
samus 10mo ago
That's not the case though. Currently, national sovereignty doesn't really exist in this regard as most countries don't have their own national payment system. Also, there already is a European system to settle transactions in Euro: TARGET2, though it is designed for use by banks and other financial institutions only. Edit: the EU becoming like 1984 is not what we should be wary of. Our societies becoming like "Brave New World" (control through hedonism instead of straightforward repression) is a much more realistic scenario.

hshdhdhj4444 10mo ago

We don’t need to speculate how this will work. India, with a population 3 times the size of the EU already did this more than half a decade ago. And it works brilliantly.

jeroenhd 10mo ago
I don't believe the Indian system works based on cryptocurrency, so I don't think the same expectations can be held. The concept is hardly revolutionary within Europe, though. Back in 1996, the Dutch "ChipKnip" was introduced, where you could store a small amount of money directly on a bank card so payment terminals wouldn't need permanent internet access to process payments. This was abandoned when wireless payment technologies were introduced, but the concept has been around for decades. Like so many fine-working systems, this system only worked within one country. The EU is now trying to solve this problem for every member country, which means convincing banks and financial institutions that whatever reasoning blocked their participation in earlier non-American systems are now no longer a problem.
- danaris 10mo ago
  ...And where does it indicate that this "digital euro" will be based on cryptocurrency? Nothing in the article appears to suggest that.
  - ffsm8 10mo ago
    https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... They explicitly differentiate themselves from crypto assets, and the only party issuing them seems to be European Central Bank. Doesn't sound like crypto to me either
flowerthoughts 10mo ago
Sweden, a counntry in the EU, did this in 2012. Then they introduced a (small) fee. Apparently Norway's Vipps is free for small amounts, but charges 1% for large. Too tempting for the EU not to play, but that will replace a duopoly with a monopoly, which will end up doing what monopolies have always done. "For the greater good" here is to incentivize competition.

mathverse 10mo ago

I have lost faith in European Union. All these things are just too little and too late. Why the heck did Thailand manage to create instant payment system that works across Asian countries and European Union did not even finish similar system inside the EU? Yes we have SEPA payments but these are useless in most payment-to-merchant type of payments across the EU. We already should have had such system widely used and accepted across the WHOLE UNION. I am glad we will have something but if I still need a VISA/MC card when I travel abroad ill just be constantly reminded of stupidity and inefficiency of the EU.

kevin061 10mo ago
You have lost faith in the EU because they want to do exactly what you want ...? Does the Thai payment system work in a German restaurant? Then why should the EU one work in Malaysia? Can you pay with WeChat in France? Can you pay with CashApp in Ireland? This is a very silly comment. I for one more than welcome this new payment system.
- mathverse 10mo ago
  You misread this comment. Thai payment system works across the Asian countries (they are not in a UNION are they?). You can use that payment system if you have a bank in Singapore,Korea,Indonesia etc. Instant no fee payments.
  - kevin061 10mo ago
    SEPA is instant and no fees outside the EU too, like Norway and UK. It's great Thailand has this, but I still fail to see how EU trying to copy Thailand (for a definition of copying) makes you lose faith in the EU. You would rather not have this no-fee payment system in the EU? How is this at all a negative thing?
    - mathverse 10mo ago
      >SEPA is instant and no fees outside the EU too, like Norway and UK. This is not the point. They need to be in SEPA for it to work. >It's great Thailand has this, but I still fail to see how EU trying to copy Thailand (for a definition of copying) makes you lose faith in the EU. You would rather not have this no-fee payment system in the EU? How is this at all a negative thing? The point is Thailand managed this due to economic, capitalist needs across different countries and cultures. The EU is a union and did not even manage to do that as well as Thailand.

jampekka 10mo ago

The ECB official claims that with the digital euro merchants will start to push towards the no-fee option. > "The merchant will probably say to the customer: ‘please pay by digital euro, or else you pay an extra fee’. Instead of handing over so much money to Mastercard or Visa, they will have the option of our not-for-profit payment engine.” But it's the EU who with the Payment Systems Directives bans merchants from passing the fees to customers. Annoying how this isn't even mentioned. Public officials should treat us as citizens of a democratic system, not subjects of techocratic bureaucracy to be managed with PR campaigns. That said, payment system as public service is kinda a no-brainer. Due to the lobbyist capture of EU I don't have too high hopes though.

jeroenhd 10mo ago
While this is true, I've seen plenty of bank-backed ads basically stating "please try paying by card even if it's a small amount, it doesn't cost you extra anymore", sending practically free money towards Mastercard and Visa. Participating banks or even governments could easily set up an equivalent advertising campaign for their new system. The ability to have mobile payment without the prying eyes of the American government alone could be a good ad. I'm sure Trump will start another trade war if an ad actually voices that benefit, though. In theory, merchants can choose not to support certain payment processors. I can imagine a minimum-price supermarket chain like Lidl eventually dropping Visa and Mastercard to cut costs, for instance.
- Saline9515 9mo ago
  Banks get kickbacks from the payment companies, so it's unlikely to happen.
rognjen 10mo ago
Businesses with slim margins in Germany simply do not have Visa/Mastercard -- only "EC", the German network. Thay means it's not a matter of passing on cost, but it's a choice for the consumer: cash or EC. If I had to guess, having subbbed to the EC network, or any of the other country specific ones, merchants would simply get the new one as well automatically. Similar things are happening with online ID where an EU-wide provider is being rolled out and if you as a service provider need KYC-type ID you integrate only with it. Under the hood the user can use any of the national IDs.

hexbin010 10mo ago

Digital euro aka digital currency total surveillance and control "Digital euro" sounds cute and modern though doesn't it. It'll fool many If you criticise it you're obviously pro America and pro Visa/MasterCard or pro Russia because you obviously want the EU to fail!! It's clever to bundle it all up in one initiative

rahimnathwani 10mo ago

This is about the 'Digital Euro', which seems to be both: - a central bank digital currency, and - a system for transferring this currency between people and businesses https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... It's not clear to me that it replaces Visa/Mastercard. If you have a problem with a vendor and you've paid by card, you have a chargeback as a last resort. Not so with cash or a CBDC.

mathverse 10mo ago
European cards typically cannot do chargeback.
- rahimnathwani 10mo ago
  Do you mean Europe-based issuers of Visa- and Mastercard-branded credit and debit cards do not have chargeback processes?
  - jeroenhd 10mo ago
    Credit cards often have them, but subject to stricter terms than their American counterparts. I don't think I've seen a European debit card that offers charge back. You can often get your money back in case of fraud or timely-reported theft of your bank cards, but it's not easy.
    - mathverse 10mo ago
      Poorly worded on my part. Europeans typically get debit cards and not credit cards anyway
- jeroenhd 10mo ago
  Credit cards often can, though European banks I've used don't do them as willy-nilly as American banks. With debit cards, charge backs are practically impossible unless payments were done in a very specific way that does not directly prove your authorization.

bytesandbits 10mo ago

it might work, it worked for Thailand. Yet in my experience EU solutions either work very well or fail spectacularly. Particularly when the EU commission is the main driver, they generally become just bureaucratic poodles. However I think this one will work. Yet it will take many years to build (side effect of slow-moving EU) and many more years to adoption. In any case, forget about this for at least 5 years. I do welcome it, but I think it should have happened 15 years ago and I dont understand why it took so long. And I might still be proven wrong and this won't work at all, and yet I wouldn't be surprised. But again this worked for Thailand, so in theory this could be done in EU.

mathverse 10mo ago
Many countries in EU will have a similar QR code payment system like Thailand based on SEPA. Slovakia is rolling out its own in 2026. The problem is to standardize all these things built on top of SEPA to work across the UNION.
- csomar 10mo ago
  There is already a QR payment standard. You can pay a Thai-QR with a Malaysian Wallet.
  - mathverse 10mo ago
    PromptPay use is different from SEPA. My comment was meant that QR payments are already possible with SEPA in EU it's just there exist different systems built on top of SEPA which are not cross compatible and available across the member states.
    - csomar 10mo ago
      My point is, there is a standard for QR payments (I think it's ISO 5201 but it was a long time since I dealt with that). Cross-border support will depend on the country/bank support; but theoretically if everyone adopt it, you'll be able to scan any country QR and then use your wallet to transfer funds (assuming your bank support cross-border payments). I think ASEAN largely adhere to the standard though the cross-border part is limited to ASEAN.

vga42 10mo ago

This would be awesome. However, EU declaring this is a bit like Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.

iamkonstantin 10mo ago

Nice. This also means sex workers (which are a legal and protected profession here) will finally be able to use the full range of card services without being subjected to the prudish views of Visa/Master Card. Same for adult entertainment websites and generally any service that doesn't align with the "US man in charge mindset". I think that alone makes it worth it.

jeroenhd 10mo ago
Not just Visa/Master Card. Banks themselves have been known to deny business accounts to sex workers because of whatever reason they can think of, forcing them to use personal bank accounts that then get them banned because of "business use". The 3000 euro limit will pose a problem for these businesses, though I suppose you could just take out half a dozen cards and rotate funds.
- iamkonstantin 10mo ago
  I think the friction really comes from their "partners" like MasterCard who are so averse to adult related services. Paying for adult entertainment is not tabu in most of Europe, being able to transact cashless... would be a very welcome improvement and even lift some of that business out of the grey zone.
apexalpha 10mo ago
Not really, in the Netherlands prostitution is legal but sexworkers have a hard time getting bank accounts. The banks are wary of the connection to human trafficking and the obvious 99% cash transactions.
- isodev 10mo ago
  Because their card providers are Visa/MasterCard who are known to have these limitations. Having a way to operate without them in the loop will certainly lift such limitations
  - 10mo ago

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 10mo ago

Will I be able to use this to make purchases the government doesn't approve of? No? Then it is little different. Although all the stuff I want to buy that the government doesn't approve of comes from Japan and I doubt they'd accept it.

zihotki 10mo ago
Right now it's a bit opposite - you can't purchase using Visa/MC some services that are legal in your country but considered illegal in US. Visa/MC just won't allow that.
- pipes 10mo ago
  And fixing it with a government monopoly doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 9mo ago
  I'd just be trading the censorious traits of the duopoly with the censorious traits of my government. Both of them hate japanese cartoons.

on_the_train 10mo ago

Yeah I'm not willingly giving eu anything, and certainly not (more of) my money. They have a straight track record of acting against their citizens with every single thing they do.

wiseowise 10mo ago
> They have a straight track record of acting against their citizens with every single thing they do. Care to give a couple of examples?
- on_the_train 10mo ago
  Political and forbidden. This is only in the interest of the EU tyrants and absolutely no one else. And it'll cost another few billions

afarah1 10mo ago

With the hability to see and track every payment?

deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

sligor 10mo ago

Aside of the fees, another important goal is political freedom against any US sanction on our citizen. We saw recently that ICC judges were excluded of Visa/Mastercard/... payment system source: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n...

michaelt 10mo ago

The real shot across the bow, for European politicians, was the US sanctions on International Criminal Court judges [1, 2] which cut them off from Visa and Mastercard - and got one judge's (European) bank account closed, because the bank's software couldn't enforce the sanctions (which would require e.g. no transactions using the dollar in currency conversion), short of closing the account. I think a lot of folks in Europe used to think there was some sort of red line America wouldn't cross, preferring to allow its (immensely profitable and dominant) tech companies to stay aloof of short-term "freedom fries" political squabbles. Turns out that's no longer the case, if it ever was. [1] https://www.thenational.scot/news/25639977.icc-judge-says-us-sanctions-affect-every-aspect-life/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/25639977.icc-judge-says-us... [2] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/nicolas-guillou-french-icc-judge-sanctioned-by-the-us-you-are-effectively-blacklisted-by-much-of-the-world-s-banking-system_6747628_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/11/19/n...

Yizahi 10mo ago

That's one way to force people to use authoritarian CBDC currency. I'm guessing the adoption estimates weren't good enough, so now a carrot will be used for a while, to entice merchants to switch. Future European dictators are silently clapping in the corners, this will give them absolute financial control and a leverage over citizens, after they will be elected on some populist promises.

drnick1 10mo ago

Let me guess, this will only run on "certified" devices and not on Linux or FOSS Android phones...

kombine 10mo ago

I wish the UK won't be stupid and joins the initiative. I also do understand that the US will exert a lot of pressure on Brits to prevent this from happening.

jeroenhd 10mo ago
The EU very purposefully made this all about the Euro. While I'm sure the UK could join in theoretically, there's no political will on the EU's side to support non-Euro currencies in this new system. Countries like Denmark and Hungary may be able to force the EU to work with their currencies, but the end goal of the ECB is to get every EU country to use the Euro eventually. As much as I'd like to pay in Euros in the UK, I don't think it'll happen.
- kombine 10mo ago
  True, but not all EU countries use Euro, such as Poland, Czechia, Sweden and others. There is no way that they will be excluded from this initiative.
  - rsynnott 10mo ago
    I mean, they’re excluded from SEPA (except for euro-denominated bank accounts).
  - mytailorisrich 10mo ago
    This is about the Digital Euro so of course it is for the Euro area only [1]. In any case, as said, the UK would be very reluctant to join even if it could. [1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...
mytailorisrich 10mo ago
The UK rejected the Euro to retain sovereignty on monetary policy, and then left the EU altogether. In that respect it would be a bad move to join this even if they could.

rognjen 10mo ago

For everyone comparing an EU-wide initiative to country-specific ones keep in mind that EU is composed of 28 sovereign states. Many individual countries already have their payment systems, and have had for a long while. It's not equivalent to India, or the US. It'd be more comparable to ASEAN (11) or the Arab league (22).

SideburnsOfDoom 10mo ago
> Many individual countries already have their payment systems, and have had for a long while. Yes, but also Single Euro Payments Area (SEPA) is a thing already (1). SEPA instant has been live in some places since 2017 (2). 1) https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/sepa/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/retail/sepa/html/index.en.htm... 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area#SEPA_Instant_Credit_Transfer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area#SEPA...

ElectronBadger 10mo ago

Finally.

omnimus 10mo ago

Honestly this is a bit wierd. There already is payment network - SEPA. Many countries have instant bank transfers and i believe instant SEPA should be mandatory from 1. 1. 2026. There already are countries where it's extremely common to use QR payments (basically prefilled bank transfer). It's pushing VISA/Mastercard out. In typical european nature the first standard was SPAYD (short payment descriptor) from Austria/Czechia/Slovakia but yeah two years later Germany/Netherlands had to come up with their different format EPC QR. But who cares the differences are trivial - just different structure of the QR string. My bank app supports both. The only thing this system needs is mandatory notification system / api so the sellers can get fast confirmation of the payment. Then again some banks already do that so you just pick right bank as seller. Taking QR codes aside there is also Wero that is already running in many of the countries (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France). I am not sure what the hell is digital euro? Will they rename Wero to digital euro or whats going on?

stefandesu 10mo ago

I moved from Germany to Norway and it would be awesome if they could integrate with each other. I have yet to find a way to transfer money between my Norwegian bank account and my Revolut account without substantial fees (on top of currency conversion fees).